The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

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Tichtheid
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dpedin wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2024 9:44 am
Jock42 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:36 pm Andy Burke on the BBC podcast stated earlier that one of the embra coaches, wouldn't name him, went up to the coaches box gobbing off about them having slated Kenny the week before, expecting plaudits this week. Absolutely bonkers that they don't think they deserve pelters for losing 5 on the bounce and shitting their pants against the Lions and that they think 1 win, with many flaws still, vindicates him (and presumably the rest of them by association).

ETA: The club is fucked if that mindset is endemic in throughout and considering how often the internationals fail to show up I fear it is.
If the Stormers were capable of passing, catching, holding on or kicking the ball then Embra would have struggled and been down at half time. The win was as much a measure of how awful the Stormers were as it was of Embra skill levels. I struggle to think of one backs move we executed throughout the game albeit the game plan of forward pods and box kicking was perfect against a Stormers back 3 who couldn't catch a cold let alone a high ball. I suspect we might struggle against a Cardiff team on Saturday who will be targeting us for an away win and will be well aware of how we play the game at the moment.

I am still not convinced that our current coaching set up is taking us forward and indeed fully expect us to finish off in the bottom half of the league again this year.


To be fair, I think it's often the case that a team look great when the opposition are playing poorly - Embra's first half against the Lions being a case in point. The games when two sides are at the peak of their powers can result in fantastic rugby - the La Rochelle v Leinster European final was one such game, the third test (?) between New Zealand and the B&I Lions where during a break in play Kieran Read reportedly said to said to Sam Warburton, "Now this is rugby!" being another.

That being said, I agree that there are few signs that the coaches are up to making this team competitive- since Kinghorn moved away from ten and Mike Blair moved away from the club, we haven't had an attacking shape to speak of.
KingBlairhorn
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robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:18 pm I think it is worth noting that very few front row forwards from other nations in last year's U20 Six Nations are playing Premiership/URC level rugby so I am not sure where this level of expectation for the Edinburgh youngsters is coming from.
Mikey Jones played U20 rugby in 2021.

I think there are some quite outdated views on this here so here are some comparisons to other 2021 props that shape my view*. This is the tournament props for each of the U20 6N squads and where they are now:

Scotland
Olly Frostwick: no pro appearances
George Breese: no pro appearances
Cole Lamberton: no pro appearances
Corey Bowker: no pro appearances
Mikey Jones: 1 appearance for Edinburgh totalling 5 minutes. 200 minutes in the English Championship

France
Henzo Kiteau: 30+ appearances across D2, Top14 and Challenge cup for 600+ minutes
Victor Montgaillard: 30+ appearances across Top14 and Challenge cup for 1000+ minutes
Eliott Yemsi: 4 appearances across Top14, Challenge Cup and D2 for 100 minutes
Daniel Biziwu: 50+ appearances across Top14, Champs Cup and Challenge Cup for 1000+ minutes

Italy
Muhamed Hasa: 27 appearances across URC and Challenge cup for 1000+ minutes
Luca Rizzoli: 30+ appearances for 1000+ minutes across URC and Challenge Cup
Ion Neculai: 30+ appearances for 1000+ minutes across URC and Challenge Cup
Mirco Spagnolo: 20+ appearances for c.900 minutes across URC and Challenge Cup

England
Luke Green: 18 appearances at Prem/Champ/Challenge Cup level plus 24 at MLS level for 1500+ minutes
Tarek Haffar: 15+ appearances at Prem/Champs Cup/Prem Cup level for 500+ minutes
Harvey Beaton: 40+ appearances at Prem/Prem Cup/Champ level for 1400+ minutes
Phil Brantingham: c.30 appearances at Prem/Prem Cup/Challenge Cup level for 1000+ minutes

Ireland
Mark Donnelly: 10+ appearances at URC/Champs cup level for c. 140 minutes
Jack Boyle: 11 appearances at URC level for 400+ minutes
Sam Illo: 20+ appearances at URC/Champs Cup/Challenge Cup level for 500+ minutes
Temi Lasisi: 4 URC appearnaces for 40 minutes

Wales
Zak Giannini: no pro appearances
Lewys Jones: 1 D2 appearance and 5 in Nationale for c. 200 minutes
Nathan Evans: 2 pro appearances at URC / champs Cup level for 30 minutes
Cameron Jones: 2 appearances at URC / Challenge Cup for 55 minutes

Calling a 22 year old prop a young player and saying it is not unusual to have no real pro rugby experience is an outdated view as can be seen. Yes, they *can* develop later, but the majority of his contemporaries are 2 or 3 season players now. The only vaguely comparable nation to us in terms of development progress is Wales and they are a shitshow. They are still doing better than us.

It's substandard and it has to improve.


* all stats for all.rugby. I believe them to be broadly correct.
Big D
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Jock42 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:36 pm Andy Burke on the BBC podcast stated earlier that one of the embra coaches, wouldn't name him, went up to the press box gobbing off about them having slated Kenny the week before, expecting plaudits this week. Absolutely bonkers that they don't think they deserve pelters for losing 5 on the bounce and shitting their pants against the Lions and that they think 1 win, with many flaws still, vindicates him (and presumably the rest of them by association).

ETA: The club is fucked if that mindset is endemic in throughout and considering how often the internationals fail to show up I fear it is.
What an embarrassment that is.
Blackmac
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Looking at possibly doing hospitality for the 1872 cup game at Murrayfield. Has anyone done it and got a rough idea of the cost.

I know it is £145 for most home games but not sure if the 1872 is more expensive.
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Tichtheid
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Big D wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Jock42 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:36 pm Andy Burke on the BBC podcast stated earlier that one of the embra coaches, wouldn't name him, went up to the press box gobbing off about them having slated Kenny the week before, expecting plaudits this week. Absolutely bonkers that they don't think they deserve pelters for losing 5 on the bounce and shitting their pants against the Lions and that they think 1 win, with many flaws still, vindicates him (and presumably the rest of them by association).

ETA: The club is fucked if that mindset is endemic in throughout and considering how often the internationals fail to show up I fear it is.
What an embarrassment that is.

They could use it to their advantage, build a "Fuck 'em all" siege mentality and promote a hard edge to the side.

I'll be the first to say that "could" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Dogbert
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I hear Tom Jordan has been injured in training, and could be out the the games in RSA, Big blow to Glasgow if that is the case
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C T
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Dogbert wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:09 am I hear Tom Jordan has been injured in training, and could be out the the games in RSA, Big blow to Glasgow if that is the case
Not great timing with the games in RSA, but I would quite like to see Hastings get a run.

Hopefully find his confidence/mojo again and start challenging Jordan. Perhaps bring out the best in both.
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Tichtheid wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2024 9:19 pm
Big D wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2024 2:39 pm
Jock42 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:36 pm Andy Burke on the BBC podcast stated earlier that one of the embra coaches, wouldn't name him, went up to the press box gobbing off about them having slated Kenny the week before, expecting plaudits this week. Absolutely bonkers that they don't think they deserve pelters for losing 5 on the bounce and shitting their pants against the Lions and that they think 1 win, with many flaws still, vindicates him (and presumably the rest of them by association).

ETA: The club is fucked if that mindset is endemic in throughout and considering how often the internationals fail to show up I fear it is.
What an embarrassment that is.

They could use it to their advantage, build a "Fuck 'em all" siege mentality and promote a hard edge to the side.

I'll be the first to say that "could" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
I'd go so far as to say they should do that. How such an unimpressive group of coaches got such egos is really the question.
Big D
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A team coaching staff announced for the Chile game.

Horne as HC with Lawrie and Murchie assisting. Lawrie benefitting from "ah fuck it he's Scottish and it is only one game" because it is hard to see how he has improved the Edinburgh forward play.
SomersetJock
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Dogbert wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:09 am I hear Tom Jordan has been injured in training, and could be out the the games in RSA, Big blow to Glasgow if that is the case
I read this earlier as well, but the teams out and Tom Jordan is wearing the 10 shirt.

Hasting on the bench.
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Tichtheid
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Dogbert
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Really happy that Jordan is fit, we will need his physicality against a fully loaded Sharks team
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Tichtheid
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That is the centre pairing I want to see kick on.

There is a bit of oomph in that back row, I hope they go well
Biffer
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:03 am
How is Price hanging on to that 9 shirt.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Dogbert
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1 Nathan McBeth (45)
2 Gregor Hiddleston (12)
3 Zander Fagerson (152)
4 Max Williamson (23)
5 Scott Cummings (129)
6 Matt Fagerson (115)
7 Rory Darge (51)
8 Jack Dempsey (52)

9 George Horne (121)
10 Tom Jordan (53)
11 Kyle Rowe (20)
12 Sione Tuipulotu (C) (58)
13 Stafford McDowall (80)
14 Sebastian Cancelliere (40)
15 Josh McKay (52)

Replacements

16 Johnny Matthews (77)
17 Rory Sutherland (2)
18 Sam Talakai (3)
19 Alex Samuel (19)
20 Gregor Brown (24)
21 Henco Venter (23)
22 Jamie Dobie (72)
23 Adam Hastings (56)

Unavailable for selection: JP du Preez (knee), Ollie Smith (knee), Kyle Steyn (leg), Sione Vailanu (knee), Murphy Walker (neck)
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Jock42
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:05 am That is the centre pairing I want to see kick on.

There is a bit of oomph in that back row, I hope they go well
Definitely prefer Currie at 13.

Think I'd have swapped Crosbie and Muncaster, for as good as ge was, but I can certainly live with it. Glad Harrison is starting again, needs to gain confidence in his lineouts.
KingBlairhorn
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Jock42 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:11 am
Tichtheid wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:05 am That is the centre pairing I want to see kick on.

There is a bit of oomph in that back row, I hope they go well
Definitely prefer Currie at 13.

Think I'd have swapped Crosbie and Muncaster, for as good as ge was, but I can certainly live with it. Glad Harrison is starting again, needs to gain confidence in his lineouts.
I don't particularly see Crosbie as a 7, but I agree he's a more natural fit than Muncaster who is an 8 foremost and a 6 secondary. To be honest though, I think the distinction between backrow players (particularly blindside and 8) is becoming more and more blurred outside of the throwbacks like Darge. I would like there to be more of a clear succession plan / hierarchy though with everyone given the requisite gametime in their best position. Something like:

6: Richie / Crosbie / McConnell
7: Watson / Boyle / Douglas
8: Bradbury / Muncaster / Dodd

We can quibble about primary positions but its the clear succession planning and gametime management piece I would particularly like to see.
Biffer
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Edinburgh A beat Glasgow A 29-12 this afternoon. Closed doors game because Glasgow Life couldn’t get a health and safety officer in place, high begs the question why not take it to a club ground. Regardless, good to see more A games.

Edinburgh have played an A side four weeks in a row, with another game scheduled next week. I hope they can keep them coming - arranging games for a few weeks v English A teams was great, I’d hope we can do something similar vs the Irish and maybe the Italians? Add in a couple more against Glasgow, maybe a club / region XV and they could get up to around 15 games. That plus U20 international schedule would really help young players develop by playing proper matches. Front row in particular need 20 competitive games in the year to develop to a position where they can step up imo, and a mix of their peers and experienced pros is a good schedule.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
Dogbert
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Kyle Steyn ruled out for the next 6 to 8 weeks due to injury. Will miss all the RSA URC games, and the Autumn Internationals
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Achahoish
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Dogbert wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:12 am Kyle Steyn ruled out for the next 6 to 8 weeks due to injury. Will miss all the RSA URC games, and the Autumn Internationals
Where did you get that from? He's listed to play today.
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Tichtheid
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Achahoish wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:39 am
Dogbert wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:12 am Kyle Steyn ruled out for the next 6 to 8 weeks due to injury. Will miss all the RSA URC games, and the Autumn Internationals
Where did you get that from? He's listed to play today.

You may be mixing up your Kyles

Rowe is playing, Steyn is out
Achahoish
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 10:03 am
Achahoish wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:39 am
Dogbert wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:12 am Kyle Steyn ruled out for the next 6 to 8 weeks due to injury. Will miss all the RSA URC games, and the Autumn Internationals
Where did you get that from? He's listed to play today.

You may be mixing up your Kyles

Rowe is playing, Steyn is out
Should've gone to Specsavers
oops
Oxbow
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I know he's some way down the pecking order, but Robbie Smith picked up what looked to be pretty bad injury playing for Saints last night. Shame, because he was going to get a lot more game time this season with Saints losing Matavesi to France.
Slick
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Tichtheid wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:03 am
Have to be honest, despite all our collective moaning about top class players not doing the business for Edinburgh, that doesn’t strike me as a particularly top class team
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KingBlairhorn
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Haha, never change Edinburgh. Dominated the first 25, fluffed two or three great try opportunities, conceded a try with shite basic defending, get a yellow card, now looking utterly under the pump.
westport
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What a bonkers game at the Hive
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Tichtheid
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There are some good and some very promising players in that Edinburgh team. Tuipulotu looks like he could be every bit as good as his brother, Matt Currie made some really good breaks. Duhan is Duhan, Graham looks like he is getting back to his best. Goosen is very good at this level. Thompson is growing on me, Price played well after a couple of howlers of games.

With Boff and Paterson to come in we have some exciting individuals, but they need a pattern to play to and I don't see one at the moment. Currie and Tuipulotu were making good breaks but the lack of execution at the end of it was very frustrating.

Btw, Embra up to 6th with Connacht to play Leinster just now.

I'll happily go down one if the Wesht can put one over on The Dubs.
Biffer
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Just in from the game. First half seemed to me to be two fairly mediocre teams, second half Edinburgh put more pressure on. Replace ment front row made a big difference, hitting the defensive line harder with the ball, and Mish introduced his usual element of chaos into the defence. Bonus point win at home, would have taken that before the start of the game.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 6:25 pm There are some good and some very promising players in that Edinburgh team. Tuipulotu looks like he could be every bit as good as his brother, Matt Currie made some really good breaks. Duhan is Duhan, Graham looks like he is getting back to his best. Goosen is very good at this level. Thompson is growing on me, Price played well after a couple of howlers of games.

With Boff and Paterson to come in we have some exciting individuals, but they need a pattern to play to and I don't see one at the moment. Currie and Tuipulotu were making good breaks but the lack of execution at the end of it was very frustrating.

Btw, Embra up to 6th with Connacht to play Leinster just now.

I'll happily go down one if the Wesht can put one over on The Dubs.
Tuipolotu looks promising, I'd like to see a bit more guile from the midfield and ten though. Edinburgh played well and it was a really fun game.
topofthemoon
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KingBlairhorn wrote: Thu Oct 17, 2024 10:35 am
robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:18 pm I think it is worth noting that very few front row forwards from other nations in last year's U20 Six Nations are playing Premiership/URC level rugby so I am not sure where this level of expectation for the Edinburgh youngsters is coming from.
Mikey Jones played U20 rugby in 2021.

I think there are some quite outdated views on this here so here are some comparisons to other 2021 props that shape my view*. This is the tournament props for each of the U20 6N squads and where they are now:

Scotland
Olly Frostwick: no pro appearances
George Breese: no pro appearances
Cole Lamberton: no pro appearances
Corey Bowker: no pro appearances
Mikey Jones: 1 appearance for Edinburgh totalling 5 minutes. 200 minutes in the English Championship

France
Henzo Kiteau: 30+ appearances across D2, Top14 and Challenge cup for 600+ minutes
Victor Montgaillard: 30+ appearances across Top14 and Challenge cup for 1000+ minutes
Eliott Yemsi: 4 appearances across Top14, Challenge Cup and D2 for 100 minutes
Daniel Biziwu: 50+ appearances across Top14, Champs Cup and Challenge Cup for 1000+ minutes

Italy
Muhamed Hasa: 27 appearances across URC and Challenge cup for 1000+ minutes
Luca Rizzoli: 30+ appearances for 1000+ minutes across URC and Challenge Cup
Ion Neculai: 30+ appearances for 1000+ minutes across URC and Challenge Cup
Mirco Spagnolo: 20+ appearances for c.900 minutes across URC and Challenge Cup

England
Luke Green: 18 appearances at Prem/Champ/Challenge Cup level plus 24 at MLS level for 1500+ minutes
Tarek Haffar: 15+ appearances at Prem/Champs Cup/Prem Cup level for 500+ minutes
Harvey Beaton: 40+ appearances at Prem/Prem Cup/Champ level for 1400+ minutes
Phil Brantingham: c.30 appearances at Prem/Prem Cup/Challenge Cup level for 1000+ minutes

Ireland
Mark Donnelly: 10+ appearances at URC/Champs cup level for c. 140 minutes
Jack Boyle: 11 appearances at URC level for 400+ minutes
Sam Illo: 20+ appearances at URC/Champs Cup/Challenge Cup level for 500+ minutes
Temi Lasisi: 4 URC appearnaces for 40 minutes

Wales
Zak Giannini: no pro appearances
Lewys Jones: 1 D2 appearance and 5 in Nationale for c. 200 minutes
Nathan Evans: 2 pro appearances at URC / champs Cup level for 30 minutes
Cameron Jones: 2 appearances at URC / Challenge Cup for 55 minutes

Calling a 22 year old prop a young player and saying it is not unusual to have no real pro rugby experience is an outdated view as can be seen. Yes, they *can* develop later, but the majority of his contemporaries are 2 or 3 season players now. The only vaguely comparable nation to us in terms of development progress is Wales and they are a shitshow. They are still doing better than us.

It's substandard and it has to improve.


* all stats for all.rugby. I believe them to be broadly correct.
The reality is that with the way things work currently neither of the pro teams has to rely on the u20s pathway to produce props. It's a bit chicken and egg - are the players not good enough so other routes have to be explored? Or are other routes easier so there's less need to put effort into the prop pathway?

As an illustration, across Edinburgh's last 150 games (so 300 possible starts at 1 and 3) players who have featured for Scotland u20s have made 12 starts (LH - 6; TH - 6) so 4% of available slots.
Slick
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Some horrible scores every week in the Premiership at the moment, my adopted lot, Musselburgh getting humped every week. It’s fairly disastrous for the club even if they knew it was coming.
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Tichtheid
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Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:43 pm Some horrible scores every week in the Premiership at the moment, my adopted lot, Musselburgh getting humped every week. It’s fairly disastrous for the club even if they knew it was coming.


I haven't actually been following it, but now I've had a look it's a bit of a joke league by the looks of things.

I hear rumours of payments still being made to players at some clubs.
Slick
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:02 pm
Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:43 pm Some horrible scores every week in the Premiership at the moment, my adopted lot, Musselburgh getting humped every week. It’s fairly disastrous for the club even if they knew it was coming.


I haven't actually been following it, but now I've had a look it's a bit of a joke league by the looks of things.

I hear rumours of payments still being made to players at some clubs.
They are allowed to pay at that level, the problem is the S6 players have largely stayed at the S6 clubs they were at before so they are smashing everyone - and getting paid more than others. It will take at least a couple of seasons to get sorted out which is a massive waste of time for everyone
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Tichtheid
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Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:28 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:02 pm
Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:43 pm Some horrible scores every week in the Premiership at the moment, my adopted lot, Musselburgh getting humped every week. It’s fairly disastrous for the club even if they knew it was coming.


I haven't actually been following it, but now I've had a look it's a bit of a joke league by the looks of things.

I hear rumours of payments still being made to players at some clubs.
They are allowed to pay at that level, the problem is the S6 players have largely stayed at the S6 clubs they were at before so they are smashing everyone - and getting paid more than others. It will take at least a couple of seasons to get sorted out which is a massive waste of time for everyone

Are they? My mistake then, I thought that when the S6 was brought in all payments below that were illegal
Biffer
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Edinburgh now have as many bonus points as they got all last season.
And are there two g’s in Bugger Off?
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Tichtheid
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Chris Hoy - I don't know what to say, this is terribly sad, what with his wife's diagnosis as well

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... -diagnosis
robmatic
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Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:28 pm
Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 8:02 pm
Slick wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:43 pm Some horrible scores every week in the Premiership at the moment, my adopted lot, Musselburgh getting humped every week. It’s fairly disastrous for the club even if they knew it was coming.


I haven't actually been following it, but now I've had a look it's a bit of a joke league by the looks of things.

I hear rumours of payments still being made to players at some clubs.
They are allowed to pay at that level, the problem is the S6 players have largely stayed at the S6 clubs they were at before so they are smashing everyone - and getting paid more than others. It will take at least a couple of seasons to get sorted out which is a massive waste of time for everyone
I am fairly sure I remember the club fogeys talking about how the S6 was a waste of time because it was no better than the Premiership. Maybe there was a difference in quality after all.
Achahoish
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 6:25 pm There are some good and some very promising players in that Edinburgh team. Tuipulotu looks like he could be every bit as good as his brother, Matt Currie made some really good breaks. Duhan is Duhan, Graham looks like he is getting back to his best. Goosen is very good at this level. Thompson is growing on me, Price played well after a couple of howlers of games.

With Boff and Paterson to come in we have some exciting individuals, but they need a pattern to play to and I don't see one at the moment. Currie and Tuipulotu were making good breaks but the lack of execution at the end of it was very frustrating.

Btw, Embra up to 6th with Connacht to play Leinster just now.

I'll happily go down one if the Wesht can put one over on The Dubs.
Thompson is a very good player. He missed most of last season with injury, played 3-4 games and did nothing wrong. He was punted along the M8 when Hastings arrived. He needs game time to build his confidence & sharpness. Having Price alongside him will help that. I'd have kept him over Hastings tbh
duke
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 11:16 pm Chris Hoy - I don't know what to say, this is terribly sad, what with his wife's diagnosis as well

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... -diagnosis
Saw that this morning, really sad news
Slick
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Tichtheid wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2024 11:16 pm Chris Hoy - I don't know what to say, this is terribly sad, what with his wife's diagnosis as well

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/ ... -diagnosis
Horrible news
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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