Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[inactionman]

In turn, you’re ignoring that in return for their taking risk on, they profit from other peoples labour as well as their own. That’s the reward for the risk.

I don’t really follow - each employee they take on and potentially profit from is also further risk and a financial burden. I expect to get paid at the end of the month even if our clients prefer to pay on 90 day terms. I don’t accept that in *most cases* private sector employment is so exploitative that your analysis holds. People should be encouraged to start businesses and take on employees, that requires incentives that reflect that they run risks most of us run a mile from.

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

[Biffer]

I don’t really follow - each employee they take on and potentially profit from is also further risk and a financial burden. I expect to get paid at the end of the month even if our clients prefer to pay on 90 day terms. I don’t accept that in *most cases* private sector employment is so exploitative that your analysis holds. People should be encouraged to start businesses and take on employees, that requires incentives that reflect that they run risks most of us run a mile from.

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny? No other benefit to you whatsoever?

[inactionman]

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

[Biffer]

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

[inactionman]

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

It's not necessarily money, it's things I can't do. I don't see what difficulty you're having with this. I earn well enough just wining and working for me, but there are projects I can't do everything for.

I'm not a body-shopping consultancy, my 'business model isn't to spend an age winning work just to hive it out to someone else.

[weegie01]

Not entirely sure it is fair to see a business owner’s drawing as being identical to my salary - I have far greater security and perks as an employee

Well, there is definitely a difference in risk but that is generally reflected in the reward.

Things would be a lot simpler if we stopped pretending that NI was anything other than a differently-badged slice of income tax.

Indeed, that would deal with a substantial part of my objections. If you have an income from work of thirty grand you’re paying a marginal tax rate of 32%. If you have an income of thirty grand from share dividends the marginal tax rate is 8.75%.

Even allowing for risk involved in investment, that’s not equitable. It’s a biased system towards people who own assets.

The marginal tax rate at £32k is 20% in England and 21% in Scotland, so with 8% NI how do you get 32%?

As inactionman points out above, dividends are paid out of the company's after corporation tax income. Even if a business owner takes all income as dividend up to £32k the tax payable is 27.5% made up of 19% CT and 8.75% dividend tax. If you are a shareholder in a large company it will have paid 25% CT so a total of 33.75% tax.

There are clearly benefits to a business owner to move personal income to dividend or no one would do it. But the people who run the tax system are not idiots. The tax system is designed to ensure that tax outcomes are broadly fair and strikes a balance taking into account all relevant factors. It would be insane to have a tax system where one form of income was taxed at a quarter of the same income if everything else was equal.

And of course tax on dividends goes up massively at higher rates so that the no one takes all their income as dividends to avoid paying higher tax rates.

[lemonhead]

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

It's not necessarily money, it's things I can't do. I don't see what difficulty you're having with this. I earn well enough just wining and working for me, but there are projects I can't do everything for.

I'm not a body-shopping consultancy, my 'business model isn't to spend an age winning work just to hive it out to someone else.

My guess is those who have never run a business themselves are far more likely to hold a rather rose tinted view of what it's actually like.

Have well meaning friends working in salaried positions for years talk wistfully (and vaguely) about things like buying a pub, sharing stories with patrons from behind the bar watching the money roll in. The urge to slap full in the face with a two day old fish is overwhelming at times.

So here's the thing, we're a food producer making everything by hand and selling retail. Turnover c£120k p/a and we now employ four part time staff. In the past five years alone we've ridden covid (adapted full to personally delivering local to keep the lights on), utility rise of approximately 45% (sucked it up to literally keep the lights on), raw materials increases of anywhere between 25-60% and rising wage costs as minimum wage jumps about 6-7% a year. Also had to keep competitive in a local market where literally everyone in food and beverage is diversifying to the nth degree to grab or maintain footfall and market share. The average FB feed is swamped with them trying to attract your custom and most importantly: cash. Many have folded along the way. An eighty grand investment in a business turning to shit overnight as you fire sale your way out of an expiring lease. Recoup a tenth and that could be good going.

My wife and I pay ourselves up to the NI threshold and take dividends of whatever money's left over. Which, I'll be honest was never that much to begin with, and as your business grows so do your staff liabilities. Corp tax is 19% of your profits and dividend tax on the remainder around 9%. Despite all this, a newborn and being hospitalised midway through we've grown turnover by about 20k a year since the beginning and are still just about afloat. That's where the rose tint ends, along with the year on year income rise. We're at near ceiling now, and costs continue to rise.

Running a business you are in charge of everything. Strategy, growth, innovation, market research, product development, sourcing, packaging, ordering, advertising, social media, comms, health & safety, food hygiene checks, accounting, payroll, insurance, pensions, equipment, recruitment, staff training and making damn sure the lights stay on through the tough times. And yes, in person working on the shop floor. In return you effectively give up a huge part of your life: physical, mental and social to keep this whole glass sculpture tottering down the road. You do not shut the door at the end of a 12hr day and just forget all about work, it follows you home, keeps you awake at night and is your first greeting in the morning. If you close to take holiday no money comes in and can't pay wages. If you get your pricing wrong you don't make enough or any money. If your employees get sick, you cover. If you get badly sick, no money comes in and you fail. If you personally have a breakdown you fail, and as your name (not your ltd company name) is on the lease your home could be taken away as a result. As times get tougher your friendships suffer, your relationships suffer and yes, so do you.

No one makes us do this, true. It's our choice to have our employees earning more than we do. And they do, on minimum wage. And we cover for them when they're sick, pay them when they take holiday and cover for them ourselves and/or pay someone else to cover them while they're away. In return we get to pay the bills, see our daughter grow up and not have to take whatever limited minimum wage jobs there are in the local area or commute 3hrs a day to the nearest city.

Sure, we could just hike our prices by a third and be done with it. A quarter of our customers probably wouldn't bat an eyelid as they have money and time on their hands, the majority would likely cut down on their purchases and an undisclosed number would silently drift away somewhere else or go without. It's something the £15 minimum wage crowd don't quite get, where is this money going to come from. And I'm all for better staff pay and conditions. We don't touch zero hour, we pay sick pay wherever possible and look after staff in kind. And each year your overheads go up and you try to maintain this balancing act to stay competitive, meet your costs, pay, motivate and develop your staff and stay in business.

If that all sounds like fun then jump in, the water's murky. Assuming you've got the hard cash or massive loan interest to get started and are willing to devote your life to it. Salaried employees wonder what it's like to run a business and be your own boss. Company directors on 80hr+ weeks start thinking this whole paid holiday thing and having a normal life sounds a fab idea. To talk truly about risk and reward, go and take some genuine risks. Then we can talk honestly about reward.

[robmatic]

The unfortunate thing is that the UK is an aging country and looking after the oldies is really expensive, so taxes are probably going to have to keep on going up on somebody.

The current settlement of loading the burden onto labour means that basic rate is approaching 50% for a graduate these days (income tax + EE NICs + ER NICs + student loan) and those pips probably can't squeak much more.

Some productivity and economic growth would probably help but that would involve building houses and infrastructure and blocking those is a national pastime.

[C T]

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

It's not necessarily money, it's things I can't do. I don't see what difficulty you're having with this. I earn well enough just wining and working for me, but there are projects I can't do everything for.

I'm not a body-shopping consultancy, my 'business model isn't to spend an age winning work just to hive it out to someone else.

My guess is those who have never run a business themselves are far more likely to hold a rather rose tinted view of what it's actually like.

Have well meaning friends working in salaried positions for years talk wistfully (and vaguely) about things like buying a pub, sharing stories with patrons from behind the bar watching the money roll in. The urge to slap full in the face with a two day old fish is overwhelming at times.

So here's the thing, we're a food producer making everything by hand and selling retail. Turnover c£120k p/a and we now employ four part time staff. In the past five years alone we've ridden covid (adapted full to personally delivering local to keep the lights on), utility rise of approximately 45% (sucked it up to literally keep the lights on), raw materials increases of anywhere between 25-60% and rising wage costs as minimum wage jumps about 6-7% a year. Also had to keep competitive in a local market where literally everyone in food and beverage is diversifying to the nth degree to grab or maintain footfall and market share. The average FB feed is swamped with them trying to attract your custom and most importantly: cash. Many have folded along the way. An eighty grand investment in a business turning to shit overnight as you fire sale your way out of an expiring lease. Recoup a tenth and that could be good going.

My wife and I pay ourselves up to the NI threshold and take dividends of whatever money's left over. Which, I'll be honest was never that much to begin with, and as your business grows so do your staff liabilities. Corp tax is 19% of your profits and dividend tax on the remainder around 9%. Despite all this, a newborn and being hospitalised midway through we've grown turnover by about 20k a year since the beginning and are still just about afloat. That's where the rose tint ends, along with the year on year income rise. We're at near ceiling now, and costs continue to rise.

Running a business you are in charge of everything. Strategy, growth, innovation, market research, product development, sourcing, packaging, ordering, advertising, social media, comms, health & safety, food hygiene checks, accounting, payroll, insurance, pensions, equipment, recruitment, staff training and making damn sure the lights stay on through the tough times. And yes, in person working on the shop floor. In return you effectively give up a huge part of your life: physical, mental and social to keep this whole glass sculpture tottering down the road. You do not shut the door at the end of a 12hr day and just forget all about work, it follows you home, keeps you awake at night and is your first greeting in the morning. If you close to take holiday no money comes in and can't pay wages. If you get your pricing wrong you don't make enough or any money. If your employees get sick, you cover. If you get badly sick, no money comes in and you fail. If you personally have a breakdown you fail, and as your name (not your ltd company name) is on the lease your home could be taken away as a result. As times get tougher your friendships suffer, your relationships suffer and yes, so do you.

No one makes us do this, true. It's our choice to have our employees earning more than we do. And they do, on minimum wage. And we cover for them when they're sick, pay them when they take holiday and cover for them ourselves and/or pay someone else to cover them while they're away. In return we get to pay the bills, see our daughter grow up and not have to take whatever limited minimum wage jobs there are in the local area or commute 3hrs a day to the nearest city.

Sure, we could just hike our prices by a third and be done with it. A quarter of our customers probably wouldn't bat an eyelid as they have money and time on their hands, the majority would likely cut down on their purchases and an undisclosed number would silently drift away somewhere else or go without. It's something the £15 minimum wage crowd don't quite get, where is this money going to come from. And I'm all for better staff pay and conditions. We don't touch zero hour, we pay sick pay wherever possible and look after staff in kind. And each year your overheads go up and you try to maintain this balancing act to stay competitive, meet your costs, pay, motivate and develop your staff and stay in business.

If that all sounds like fun then jump in, the water's murky. Assuming you've got the hard cash or massive loan interest to get started and are willing to devote your life to it. Salaried employees wonder what it's like to run a business and be your own boss. Company directors on 80hr+ weeks start thinking this whole paid holiday thing and having a normal life sounds a fab idea. To talk truly about risk and reward, go and take some genuine risks. Then we can talk honestly about reward.

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

[lemonhead]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

[weegie01]

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

One of my sons set up a business with a pal when they were at uni. He makes a good income, but he has sold out to his partner.

In contrast to lemonhead, he decided that he was not going to sacrifice his 20s and 30s. The business is his life and he has virtually no life outside of it. The business is doing well and is getting more offers of business than they can cope with. If things go well they could both be very, very, well off one day in the future.

But he looks at his pals in paid employment and they are earning as much as he is without the stresses. His potential upside is more than theirs, but theirs is still very high without anything like the risk. He decided that he'd rather have a life and lose the potential higher upside.

Despite everything, my son loved being a business owner. He loved being in charge, he loved the buzz of knowing that they were responsible for their success, that the buck stopped with him. But for him ultimately it was just not worth the sacrifices. His drive to succeed will serve him well and he'll get a very good income in paid employment. His business partner on the other hand decided he was going to take the risk, with a critical issue for him being that he felt he'd find it hard to not be the man in charge any more.

[Sandstorm]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good post, Lemonhead. I work for a firm that is now 20 individuals, but when I joined it was just 6. Before that it was just 3 for the first 4 years. The owners have stepped back after 16 years at the helm and left it to us. A year later and they both look about 10 years younger.

[Slick]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good post, I agree with most of that. I earn less than my employee but it's largely a lifestyle choice for me at this stage rather than cash. In saying that, a pension crisis is looming and as the kids get a bit older priorities will have to change.

[SaintK]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good luck to you.
I had several opportunities but never had the bottle to try so was a corporate man for 40 years!!!
As a matter of interest what do you make and sell?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good post, Lemonhead. I work for a firm that is now 20 individuals, but when I joined it was just 6. Before that it was just 3 for the first 4 years. The owners have stepped back after 16 years at the helm and left it to us. A year later and they both look about 10 years younger.

I've never felt the desire to run a business but I know a few people who have. It can be brutal.

I was on holiday with a chap a few years back who ran a recruitment company in the Midlands. He said he was employing 18 people before he was making as much money as when it was just him and his wife - like your example he gave the business to the staff and went back to being a private operator.

I've put some money in to a brerwery that's just about to hit 5 years old. They've been close to failure pretty much constantly since opening but the owners have put everything they own in. They'd just turned a corner on sales and had their first profitable month and their two main wholesalers went bankrupt owing them 60K - If they didn't have people to lean on that would be the end. My conversations with them are pretty stressful as most of the their time is just spent dealing with crap.

[lemonhead]

There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good luck to you.
I had several opportunities but never had the bottle to try so was a corporate man for 40 years!!!
As a matter of interest what do you make and sell?

The wise choice, you'll live longer and happier.

Bakery. Which, as well made fartisan bread is highly sought after and commands a premium price (and by some distance the most time consuming and least profitable thing bakeries do) means bread, pastries, pasties, patisserie, pizza, pies, cakes, sausage rolls, soup, sandwiches, custard tarts, cookies, sweets, ambient retail, good coffee, drinks and snacks.

We teach breadmaking as well, alongside private catering, events and markets. No more music festivals though. Feck that.

[Sandstorm]

Damn, now I'm hungry!!!

[Tichtheid]

I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

[Dinsdale Piranha]

My niece and her other half own a bakery and it's going well. Gail's tried to buy them out but they know they are outselling the local Gail's significantly.

That's another tough business mostly due to the very antisocial hours.

[epwc]

I used to love home made bread, unfortunately got diagnosed coeliac a couple of years ago

[lemonhead]

My niece and her other half own a bakery and it's going well. Gail's tried to buy them out but they know they are outselling the local Gail's significantly.

That's another tough business mostly due to the very antisocial hours.

It is, and no one sees the sheer volume of work they both have to put in, just the pretty shop front.

Gail's are an example of a small operation turned behemoth that's done almost everything right, well made produce and quietly snapping up retail units all over town. Now not so quietly influencing house prices.

Kudos to your niece, I'd seriously consider quitting with one of them in the rear view mirror.

EPWC - sorry to hear it. Emmanuel Hadjiandreou has an excellent gluten free bread recipe in his intro book along with a naturally gluten free cornbread if you or any family/friends happen to spend time in the kitchen. Make gigantic one off batches, portion, freeze and take out when you need.

[tabascoboy]

I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

[inactionman]

I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

The supermarket loaves pretty much all use the Chorloywood process - much quicker and generally lower-cost ingredients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

[SaintK]

The wise choice, you'll live longer and happier.

Bakery. Which, as well made fartisan bread is highly sought after and commands a premium price (and by some distance the most time consuming and least profitable thing bakeries do) means bread, pastries, pasties, patisserie, pizza, pies, cakes, sausage rolls, soup, sandwiches, custard tarts, cookies, sweets, ambient retail, good coffee, drinks and snacks.

We teach breadmaking as well, alongside private catering, events and markets. No more music festivals though. Feck that.

Well, I wish you were near me. Have to wait every 2 weeks for a farmers market to get decent bread here. Or travel to LOndon or Cambridge.

[SaintK]

My niece and her other half own a bakery and it's going well. Gail's tried to buy them out but they know they are outselling the local Gail's significantly.

That's another tough business mostly due to the very antisocial hours.

It is, and no one sees the sheer volume of work they both have to put in.

Gail's are an example of a small operation turned behemoth that's done almost everything right, well made produce and quietly snapping up retail units all over town. Now not so quietly influencing house prices.

Kudos to your niece, I'd seriously consider quitting with one of them in the rear view mirror.

Isn't the idiot Luke Johnson involved with them? The business guru who bust Patisserie Valerie when his FD embezzled millions under his nose!!!

[Sandstorm]

Gail's are an example of a small operation turned behemoth that's done almost everything right, well made produce and quietly snapping up retail units all over town. Now not so quietly influencing house prices.

There's a new Gail's in our town. Nice bread, but the interior seating area looks exactly like Gatwick South Terminal. Yuk.

[inactionman]

The wise choice, you'll live longer and happier.

Bakery. Which, as well made fartisan bread is highly sought after and commands a premium price (and by some distance the most time consuming and least profitable thing bakeries do) means bread, pastries, pasties, patisserie, pizza, pies, cakes, sausage rolls, soup, sandwiches, custard tarts, cookies, sweets, ambient retail, good coffee, drinks and snacks.

We teach breadmaking as well, alongside private catering, events and markets. No more music festivals though. Feck that.

Well, I wish you were near me. Have to wait every 2 weeks for a farmers market to get decent bread here. Or travel to LOndon or Cambridge.

I've had a breadmaker for a good few years and it's been one of the gadhget swe use pretty much weekly.. It's not as good as the proper bakers can make it, but it's handy when I can't get to a baker's.

I'll sometimes just buy a ready-made packet (just add water) but when I have time I make it up from scratch. It can be variable - I've had times where the yeast hasn't activated properly and the bread has emerged like a lump of concrete - but it's loads better than the supermarket stuff.

Anyway, bloody good luck to you Lemonhead (and Slick and others who have taken the plunge), sounds a labour of love but sounds like you are loving it

[lemonhead]

I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

The supermarket loaves pretty much all use the Chorloywood process - much quicker and generally lower-cost ingredients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

An innovation of its time, postwar method of making quick product, stacking it high, selling cheap. And immensely suitable for soaking up bacon juice in a sarnie.

But one day take a gouge out of some supermarket white loaf, a golf ball sized piece of interior fluff. Crush it in your hand, medium pressure and release. In the majority of cases you'll be holding an off white to dull grey rock of dough. Completely inert, possible oozing one last bit of moisture out.

You imagine large amounts of that slamming into your stomach like a cannonball, what your gut needs to do in digesting those 30+ additional ingredients, fats, emulsifiers, bread improvers etc. Usually soft to the point of being underbaked and produced from raw ingredients to a mixed, risen, shaped, baked, cooled, sliced and packaged loaf in two hours.

By contrast, a homemade loaf has just four ingredients: flour, yeast, water, salt. Simple, delicious and when you crush it the dough reforms into shape when you releade. Also doesn't leave a generation of people with digestion problems or a deeply held belief they're allergic to bread. Don't even get me started on supermarket sourdough...

But yeah, thanks mate We do. And breadmakers are just fine. Instant yeast is your friend and just make sure it's not a year old. Those double foil 7g sachets are notorious

[Biffer]

£40bn increase in taxes

[robmatic]

I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

The supermarket loaves pretty much all use the Chorloywood process - much quicker and generally lower-cost ingredients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

One thing I don't miss about the UK is supermarket bread

[robmatic]

£40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

[epwc]

One thing I don't miss about the UK is supermarket bread

Do they still make Sunblest? Whats wrong with that?

[epwc]

£40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

[Biffer]

£40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

Similar floods will definitely happen.

I am looking for investment in Science. That's where we will create more high productivity economic growth

[Biffer]

Employers NI up to 15% (from 13.8% I think), threshold lowered significantly to £5000 (from £9100).

But the small business allowance is increased from £5000 to £10000. Claims that means a company can empoly four people full time on minimum wage and not play employers NI - other people will know how that works better than me.

[Biffer]

Going after the exemptions to inheritance tax while keeping the thresholds the same. Thought that was more likely than some of the pish that was being talked about.

[Insane_Homer]

~£450 per passenger for Private Jets Love it.

[Biffer]

~£450 per passenger for Private Jets Love it.

Also loved the staring straight at Sunak with a 'fuck you' air when she was talking about people who live here paying tax here and abolishing non dom status.

[sockwithaticket]

£40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

Won't hold my breath, this iteration of Labour doesn't seem to be especially serious about the environment. Won't even commit to banning neocontinoids even though farmers still have plenty of other poisons at their disposal.

[SaintK]

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

Won't hold my breath, this iteration of Labour doesn't seem to be especially serious about the environment. Won't even commit to banning neocontinoids even though farmers still have plenty of other poisons at their disposal.

Why would t5hat be announced in a budget?