England vs All Blacks + Munster vs ABs XV

[tc27]

Yeah very annoyed to be 0/3 against New Zealand this year but got to keep in perspective that only needed to convert two relatively easy kicks to make it 2/1.

It is going to be hard to close out games with a weak scrum however.

And if my uncle had tits he would be my aunt, we are just simply not good enough, we lack a dominant scrum, we lack any sort of attack plan and an attack coach who is basically stealing a living, we heavily rely on defence and big hits but even we fail at that. We have a coach steeped in 90's Leicester tactics, and too many players who should be nowhere near that test side. There are so many things wrong here and it all starts at the top.

Wierd comment..firstly two missed penalty conversations from reasonably kickable positions is hardly the biggest hypothetical Your entitled to be critical but would none of this be true if Smith and Ford had struck the ball a bit better on two occasions?

[Sards]

I wasn't impressed by the ABs. They look very vulnerable. But they certainly play to the final minute. That's not been lost. The haka is meh. England just don't look flush right now. Definitely an issue there somewhere

[JM2K6]

Yeah very annoyed to be 0/3 against New Zealand this year but got to keep in perspective that only needed to convert two relatively easy kicks to make it 2/1.

It is going to be hard to close out games with a weak scrum however.

And if my uncle had tits he would be my aunt, we are just simply not good enough, we lack a dominant scrum, we lack any sort of attack plan and an attack coach who is basically stealing a living, we heavily rely on defence and big hits but even we fail at that. We have a coach steeped in 90's Leicester tactics, and too many players who should be nowhere near that test side. There are so many things wrong here and it all starts at the top.

Wierd comment..firstly two missed penalty conversations from reasonably kickable positions is hardly the biggest hypothetical Your entitled to be critical but would none of this be true if Smith and Ford had struck the ball a bit better on two occasions?

England missed one penalty, what are you referring to?

[epwc]

We were as headless as we've been in recent years. We should have won, but just didn't seem to have any clarity on how we could do it (way before the final pathetic attempt at a drop goal), the subs really hurt too.

Did Slade do anything useful?

[Paddington Bear]

We were as headless as we've been in recent years. We should have won, but just didn't seem to have any clarity on how we could do it (way before the final pathetic attempt at a drop goal), the subs really hurt too.

Did Slade do anything useful?

It seemed everyone at the end just assumed Ford would knock it over and they could get off the park. Contrast that to the Ireland game where England were roaring forward and pretty much definitely would have scored a try, giving Smith something more like a free shot. We know if Ford is given some time he’ll knock them over from anywhere. Similarly remember Faz’s dg against SA in the semi - about the only time we had go forward ball in the game, suddenly it is a much easier proposition even from a long way out and in driving rain.

Randall did well to get the ball out the scrum but lacked the composure to drive us forward after that. Ford as the 10 and senior pro has to also take a fair share of responsibility for that.

[inactionman]

Yeah very annoyed to be 0/3 against New Zealand this year but got to keep in perspective that only needed to convert two relatively easy kicks to make it 2/1.

It is going to be hard to close out games with a weak scrum however.

And if my uncle had tits he would be my aunt, we are just simply not good enough, we lack a dominant scrum, we lack any sort of attack plan and an attack coach who is basically stealing a living, we heavily rely on defence and big hits but even we fail at that. We have a coach steeped in 90's Leicester tactics, and too many players who should be nowhere near that test side. There are so many things wrong here and it all starts at the top.

Yep. Of all the things that aren't quite right, this is the most pressing.


just for example, Quins, Bath, Northampton have Evans, Blackett and Vesty and it's no fluke these teams are playing well ball in hand. Yes, there are very good players in there, but these players for the large part are also in the England mix.

[JM2K6]

We were as headless as we've been in recent years. We should have won, but just didn't seem to have any clarity on how we could do it (way before the final pathetic attempt at a drop goal), the subs really hurt too.

Did Slade do anything useful?

Slade was even more of an empty shirt than he was against Quins. The only notable things he did were a cross kick that nearly went backwards and a stumble towards the line followed by a shit delayed pullback pass that fucked any chance of a decent attack.

England's attacking plan with ball in hand is literally just "get territory, and then hope either big runners or off the cuff magic leads to something"

[SaintK]

Yeah very annoyed to be 0/3 against New Zealand this year but got to keep in perspective that only needed to convert two relatively easy kicks to make it 2/1.

It is going to be hard to close out games with a weak scrum however.

And if my uncle had tits he would be my aunt, we are just simply not good enough, we lack a dominant scrum, we lack any sort of attack plan and an attack coach who is basically stealing a living, we heavily rely on defence and big hits but even we fail at that. We have a coach steeped in 90's Leicester tactics, and too many players who should be nowhere near that test side. There are so many things wrong here and it all starts at the top.

Yep. Of all the things that aren't quite right, this is the most pressing.


just for example, Quins, Bath, Northampton have Evans, Blackett and Vesty and it's no fluke these teams are playing well ball in hand. Yes, there are very good players in there, but these players for the large part are also in the England mix.

Never mind, he's just been appointed "Senior" coach for England so he must be good!

[sockwithaticket]

Borthwick was the archetype of the hard-working Yeoman and there was a lot of that in his Leicester team. Wigglesworth made a career out of being good at box kicking.

It's not surprise that two fairly limited players don't seem to know how to make a team attack in anything but an inhibited, by the numbers way.

[Slick]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

[Lobby]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

While I'd agree with that, some of their questioning might be the result of Angus Gardner's propensity to ignore head shots and foul play, in marked contrast to most other refs.

I'd also note that, despite their constant jumping about, England's discipline was much better this game. After 60 minutes the penalty count was something like All Blacks 10, England 2, which is pretty unusual for England. (Of course, once England's 'bin juice' squad came on for the final quarter, they started giving away penalties like it was going out of fashion).

[Sandstorm]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

[Guy Smiley]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

While I'd agree with that, some of their questioning might be the result of Angus Gardner's propensity to ignore head shots and foul play, in marked contrast to most other refs.

I'd also note that, despite their constant jumping about, England's discipline was much better this game. After 60 minutes the penalty count was something like All Blacks 10, England 2, which is pretty unusual for England. (Of course, once England's 'bin juice' squad came on for the final quarter, they started giving away penalties like it was going out of fashion).

I know there's something of a NH vs SH battleline being drawn over reffing with specific regard to interpretations over cards, high contact and or foul play. Without wanting to feed into that particularly, I'd offer that for several years (going back to McCaw's captaincy) there have been issues around 'interpretation' for SH players going into tests under NH refs. The trolling has been epic over this at times... but without falling into trolling or shitfighting, the onus is always on the players to adapt to the ref of the day and to get on with playing. We can take this game as an example of this... as you say, the penalty count was heavily in favour of England early on but we didn't see the same sort of appealing (grandstanding?) to the ref from the NZ players. They could hardly argue after all... clearly taking men out without the ball is a black and white issue after all.
Some teams do it... often to their detriment. Focus on the game and your own actions or get distracted.

[Paddington Bear]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

We were in fairness being tackled off the ball just about every time we attempted to run it, and Gardner seemed incapable of noticing this without help. Plus it took some effort to make him notice the location of the final pen which did make for an easier kick (that we then missed anyway).

But in general yes there is far too much of it in English and NH rugby

[sockwithaticket]

This is intended as an observation rather than a troll.

It was quite noticeable on Saturday how much the England players were on at the ref, appealing for decisions and all that jumping about business, whereas the AB's just seemed to generally get on with the game. There must be something in that.

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

I blame Sarries. They were the first lot to really start going for the 'make your own energy' by celebrating knock ons like they're a cup win schtick and selecting so many of them in the national team seemed to spread it there.

[epwc]

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

Agree on that, was it Cunnigham South who went absolutely bell end cos he made a good tackle? I thought it was embarassing

[Guy Smiley]

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

Agree on that, was it Cunnigham South who went absolutely bell end cos he made a good tackle? I thought it was embarassing

[Slick]

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

Agree on that, was it Cunnigham South who went absolutely bell end cos he made a good tackle? I thought it was embarassing

To be honest, I didn't mind that one at all.

[Guy Smiley]

No other team celebrate "just doing their job" like making a tackle or winning a lineout like England. Like Euro Lotto winners. Lame.

Agree on that, was it Cunnigham South who went absolutely bell end cos he made a good tackle? I thought it was embarassing

To be honest, I didn't mind that one at all.

chest bump?

[Slick]

Agree on that, was it Cunnigham South who went absolutely bell end cos he made a good tackle? I thought it was embarassing

To be honest, I didn't mind that one at all.

chest bump?

I mean, it wasn't brilliant, but at least he had made a good hit and turnover rather than watching someone else drop a ball.

[epwc]

It was more than a chest bump, I can't bear to rewatch the game, regardless it is a thing that England seem to do, overexuberant celebrations through a game that they ultimately lose but should have won

[Guy Smiley]

To be honest, my chest bump comment was meant as an invite.

I found the whole scene really off. I mean... good tackle on a hard man so well played and all. No bones about that... but this is rugby, not some knacker fest in an octagonal ring.

[epwc]

To be honest, my chest bump comment was meant as an invite.

[Guy Smiley]

Worth noting in 'The Tackle' is the absolute classic bit of play from Beauden Barrett that features... a classic run sideways and deliver a hospital pass to a team mate who is immediately in the firing line.

pure Beauden. People gush about the guy.

[Slick]

To be honest, my chest bump comment was meant as an invite.

I found the whole scene really off. I mean... good tackle on a hard man so well played and all. No bones about that... but this is rugby, not some knacker fest in an octagonal ring.

Do we have to do the jump before it it or can we just walk into each other? Not sure my Achilles would cope.

[Guy Smiley]

To be honest, my chest bump comment was meant as an invite.

I found the whole scene really off. I mean... good tackle on a hard man so well played and all. No bones about that... but this is rugby, not some knacker fest in an octagonal ring.

Do we have to do the jump before it it or can we just walk into each other? Not sure my Achilles would cope.

Oh, we'd stroll up to it. We're gentlemen, Slick.

[sockwithaticket]

It was more than a chest bump, I can't bear to rewatch the game, regardless it is a thing that England seem to do, overexuberant celebrations through a game that they ultimately lose but should have won

Yes... I understand the theory behind doing it, but given England's success over the last few years, or rather the lack thereof, you do somewhat question the efficacy of such over-celebration of the little things.

I also remember an interview Ellis Genge did on The Good, The Bad and The Rugby (back when I could still stomach watching it) where he was pretty disparaging of the Italians essentially doing the same thing while being well beaten. It does slightly taint my view of the England team engaging in such carry on. Why's it ok for us and not another team that's often in particular need of maintaining their energy and enthusiasm for the game they're in?

[Slick]

To be honest, my chest bump comment was meant as an invite.

I found the whole scene really off. I mean... good tackle on a hard man so well played and all. No bones about that... but this is rugby, not some knacker fest in an octagonal ring.

Do we have to do the jump before it it or can we just walk into each other? Not sure my Achilles would cope.

Oh, we'd stroll up to it. We're gentlemen, Slick.

Roger that!

[tc27]

Boys vs men