President Trump and US politics catchall

[sockwithaticket]

There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

It's not progressives doing that, though. They might be all for it, but the people in power are centrists committed to neo-liberalism. It might be right of centre or left of centre depending on the year or country, but fundamentally it's centrists. And while the right might talk tough on it in all these places, the people who fund them and their campaigns benefit hugely from immigration. Hence why we in the UK saw such high levels of legal migration under the Tories. Oversupplying labour facilitates wage suppression, putting pressure on the housing supply allows the owner class to increase rents or watch the value of their home soar, the establishment can kick the can down the road about the demographic time bomb if they keep importing more working age people; a demographic timebomb that's worsened by the economic impact on regular folk of so much migration.

Immigration is a legitimate gripe and one I wish the actual left would engage with in an older school way to be honest, 'borders shouldn't exist and people have the right to go wherever they want' types do my head in with thier naivity and lack of pragmatism, but the left haven't held power in the US or the Uk or Germany or France etc.

The people on the right promising to fix all this are not the outsiders their voters believe them to be. In that respect they've pulled off a branding coup.

[Uncle fester]

There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Let’s look at the US. Here’s a rant from a never Trumper who hates the MAGA virus.

That said, I do not let democrats off the hook. In my opinion, the post-mortem should be that regular, moderate people are sick of being told they are "transphobic' if they don't think that boys should be able to compete against girls. They are sick of hypocritical "land acknowledgments" in classrooms and boardrooms that serve no purpose other than to virtue signal and "feel good". If a university or some company feels the need to acknowledge the "un-ceded" land of the Duwamish or Tulalip, then by all means go down to the title company and sign over the deed to your land to the tribe. Regular people are tired of the self righteous mask-scolds who loved locking down businesses causing them to fail (but hey, no problem for tech people who can work from home, right?) and closing schools while kids suffered. They are sick of stupid semantic games like illegal immigrant = "undocumented alien" and "homeless" = "unhoused". They are sick of real debate being stifled by catchy phrases like "check your privilege". They are sick of Thomas Jefferson Middle School being renamed because Jefferson owned slaves. They are sick of Harry Potter being "Problematic" because you know, JKR is a bigoted "TERF". They are sick of the whole multibillion dollar racial grievance industry. They are sick of all the smug smarmy libs telling them they don't know "what is good for them" because they aren't college educated and work with their hands and that their gas stove is bad. They are tired of the hylerbole "If Trump wins we will be rounded up and put in internment camps". I am getting texts today from liberal friends saying that "now we know what the Jews in Germany felt like in 1937". We have schools that are allowing kids to skip class today to "grieve". Any dictator that promises Trump a few hotels will have a blank check with this idiot. But I am not letting our own progressives off the hook for his rise.

This is stretching credulity a wee bit.

[Uncle fester]

There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

I asked the question in good faith so I'll accept your answer in the same vein.

[Flockwitt]

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Let’s look at the US. Here’s a rant from a never Trumper who hates the MAGA virus.

That said, I do not let democrats off the hook. In my opinion, the post-mortem should be that regular, moderate people are sick of being told they are "transphobic' if they don't think that boys should be able to compete against girls. They are sick of hypocritical "land acknowledgments" in classrooms and boardrooms that serve no purpose other than to virtue signal and "feel good". If a university or some company feels the need to acknowledge the "un-ceded" land of the Duwamish or Tulalip, then by all means go down to the title company and sign over the deed to your land to the tribe. Regular people are tired of the self righteous mask-scolds who loved locking down businesses causing them to fail (but hey, no problem for tech people who can work from home, right?) and closing schools while kids suffered. They are sick of stupid semantic games like illegal immigrant = "undocumented alien" and "homeless" = "unhoused". They are sick of real debate being stifled by catchy phrases like "check your privilege". They are sick of Thomas Jefferson Middle School being renamed because Jefferson owned slaves. They are sick of Harry Potter being "Problematic" because you know, JKR is a bigoted "TERF". They are sick of the whole multibillion dollar racial grievance industry. They are sick of all the smug smarmy libs telling them they don't know "what is good for them" because they aren't college educated and work with their hands and that their gas stove is bad. They are tired of the hylerbole "If Trump wins we will be rounded up and put in internment camps". I am getting texts today from liberal friends saying that "now we know what the Jews in Germany felt like in 1937". We have schools that are allowing kids to skip class today to "grieve". Any dictator that promises Trump a few hotels will have a blank check with this idiot. But I am not letting our own progressives off the hook for his rise.

This is stretching credulity a wee bit.

Wake up and smell the roses. And people might have an insight as to why Trump won. It’s 100% true.

[Niegs]

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

It's not progressives doing that, though. They might be all for it, but the people in power are centrists committed to neo-liberalism. It might be right of centre or left of centre depending on the year or country, but fundamentally it's centrists. And while the right might talk tough on it in all these places, the people who fund them and their campaigns benefit hugely from immigration. Hence why we in the UK saw such high levels of legal migration under the Tories. Oversupplying labour facilitates wage suppression, putting pressure on the housing supply allows the owner class to increase rents or watch the value of their home soar, the establishment can kick the can down the road about the demographic time bomb if they keep importing more working age people; a demographic timebomb that's worsened by the economic impact on regular folk of so much migration.

Immigration is a legitimate gripe and one I wish the actual left would engage with in an older school way to be honest, 'borders shouldn't exist and people have the right to go wherever they want' types do my head in with thier naivity and lack of pragmatism, but the left haven't held power in the US or the Uk or Germany or France etc.

The people on the right promising to fix all this are not the outsiders their voters believe them to be. In that respect they've pulled off a branding coup.

Canada too. Trudeau is getting trounced on immigration, scaled back student visas and maybe addressed issues in temporary foreign worker program. But the Conservative who's a Mike Johnson lookalike and Trump simple slogan playbook user keeps banging on the immigration is too high / housing too low drum, and yet don't really believe he wants to fix the first given that so many (both temp foreign workers and students) are filling service roles for big business and that, as much as I've heard, his only housing plan is to cut red tape (being done now to a degree) and let the market sort out housing as a result of fewer hurdles. (One of the major hurdles being the NIMBYs seniors/middle class likely to vote for him and still drag things on / block developments to increase density in their single family house neighbourhoods.)

[Niegs]

This would be absolutely petty and hilarious!

[Kiwias]

Don't let anyone say they were not warned. The next four years will be brutal.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/you-people- ... es-office/

[Kiwias]

This would be absolutely petty and hilarious!

Please do it, Joe!!

[Niegs]

In my feed just now... same as it ever was, eh?

[Slick]

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

I asked the question in good faith so I'll accept your answer in the same vein.

Good. You have a lot of questions but not many answers

[yermum]

Don't let anyone say they were not warned. The next four years will be brutal.

Four years? That’s very optimistic.

[Uncle fester]

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

I asked the question in good faith so I'll accept your answer in the same vein.

Good. You have a lot of questions but not many answers

Plenty of folks with cheap meaningless sound bites and no answers either. For example, previous page "Biden listened, Harris didn't". I asked what was it that Biden listened to that Harris didn't.

No answer.

[Sandstorm]

When will someone say to Trump: "You're the laziest man alive. Why the hell do you want to be President again???"

[Raggs]

When will someone say to Trump: "You're the laziest man alive. Why the hell do you want to be President again???"

He'll be free to play golf as much as he likes again, without the threat of prison.

[Hal Jordan]

Don't let anyone say they were not warned. The next four years will be brutal.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/you-people- ... es-office/

Yes, but it's all the progressives fault. I mean, they allowed, nay, welcomed the Tea Party into the GOP, allowed it to gain a foothold and then watched it mutate into MAGA whilst they kept taking the donations for fear of being thrown out by the fucking lunatic element they fucking caved in to. Fuck the GOP and fuck whoever that stupid cunt was up thread with his diatribe that this has nothing to do with him.

[Paddington Bear]

I asked the question in good faith so I'll accept your answer in the same vein.

Good. You have a lot of questions but not many answers

Plenty of folks with cheap meaningless sound bites and no answers either. For example, previous page "Biden listened, Harris didn't". I asked what was it that Biden listened to that Harris didn't.

No answer.

Apologies for not being able to keep to your schedule. Biden showed respect to voters in places like Pennsylvania, demonstrated he understood concerns on the cost of living, migration and crime. They then voted for him, same as they did for Obama who did the same. Unfortunately given his cognitive decline he didn’t govern like that and outsourced to others who didn’t get it - you can have a left wing state, a very left wing one, but to stay in power you need to control your borders, be tough on crime and don’t move too fast on social issues. Fail to do that and you allow populists back in

[bok_viking]

Don't let anyone say they were not warned. The next four years will be brutal.

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/you-people- ... es-office/

Yes, but it's all the progressives fault. I mean, they allowed, nay, welcomed the Tea Party into the GOP, allowed it to gain a foothold and then watched it mutate into MAGA whilst they kept taking the donations for fear of being thrown out by the fucking lunatic element they fucking caved in to. Fuck the GOP and fuck whoever that stupid cunt was up thread with his diatribe that this has nothing to do with him.

I think one of the Democrats biggest problems are that they are trying to cater to to wide a range of demographics. Whereas the Republicans have a much narrower group of people to focus on. The Democrats are trying to cater for people that are a bit right Centered to completely left. The USA could do with at least a 3rd party that maybe covers the left as the Republicans cover the right. Right now it is to easy for the Democrats to piss of one section of their voters, so they never know where they truly stand with their support come lection time. The stance towards Israel would have pissed of a big section of their support and the list goes on. Whereas the Republicans pretty much have their support nailed on policy.

But I agree that the next 4 years might be brutal internationally. But I do feel that Trump might benefit the Brics block in speeding up the need for countries to join/work with them. I will not be surprised if more European countries showing interest to join over the next 4 years or so. Trump is not going to be good for any European country outside the EU if he follows through with all his "promises" Though the EU and G7 will suffer as well.

[Big D]

People vote based on what concerns them day to day rather than what or who offends them.

For whatever reason Trump and his team are able to key into what concerns people have and resonate where as the democrats haven't been able to.

I saw an interesting tweet about the Rio Grande Valley voting over the last three elections. This area is on the border and has a large hispanic polulation.
In 2016 the different counties ranged between 30 to 60% more votes for Clinton.
In 2020 the different counties ranged between 5 and 20% more votes for Biden.
In 2024 the different counties ranged between 3 and 16% more votes for Trump.

People in border towns voting for what they feel is important to them. The Democrats just aren't cutting through enough.

[Niegs]

I think one of the Democrats biggest problems are that they are trying to cater to to wide a range of demographics. Whereas the Republicans have a much narrower group of people to focus on. The Democrats are trying to cater for people that are a bit right Centered to completely left. The USA could do with at least a 3rd party that maybe covers the left as the Republicans cover the right. Right now it is to easy for the Democrats to piss of one section of their voters, so they never know where they truly stand with their support come lection time. The stance towards Israel would have pissed of a big section of their support and the list goes on. Whereas the Republicans pretty much have their support nailed on policy.

I wonder if a loss for either would see a faction split off to work with the other side and sew the seeds of a third party or at least to get stuff done. From Trump’s first victory, there was a lot of talk of working class wanting to be paid attention to and it still sounds like it’s a major factor, ramped up by pandemic cost of living hikes.

So after hearing someone last night who was a solid Dem (forget who) say ‘we need to hold Trump accountable on his declaration to “fix it”’’, my maybe-naive hope for those people in need is that progressives get off their asses and find Reps who actually want to clean up cities and make groceries/healthcare/housing cheaper. Keep that base who voted Trump as the ‘change master’ riled up and demanding it come sooner than later.

Failing that, a progressive group has little to lose now so could grow a grassroots party on working class needs. That’s how Canada’s third party was born. Middle-Canada farmers and urban workers feeling shafted by Toronto/Montreal population centre interests. First regions to bring in healthcare and other beneficial things that later went national.

[Sandstorm]

Trump has made it ok to talk about "Those damn immigrants...." again. For decades it was taboo and you'd be called a racist.

Now you're "just voting for things that affect me and I'm worried about...." It's fine to talk about Building The Wall at cheese&wine/tailgate parties without fear of being shamed.

it's happening in the UK too: "We wouldn't need to build new houses if the immigration was under control...." Literally what a middle aged woman said to me at work on Monday.

Harris completely dodged this topic and came across as aloof and out of touch. Game over Dems.

[Paddington Bear]

Trump has made it ok to talk about "Those damn immigrants...." again. For decades it was taboo and you'd be called a racist.

Now you're "just voting for things that affect me and I'm worried about...." It's fine to talk about Building The Wall at cheese&wine/tailgate parties without fear of being shamed.

it's happening in the UK too: "We wouldn't need to build new houses if the immigration was under control...." Literally what a middle aged woman said to me at work on Monday.

Harris completely dodged this topic and came across as aloof and out of touch. Game over Dems.

Britain would have a declining population without immigration so to some extent she’s correct

[Raggs]

Basically Trump got the white male vote by a good margin, and the white female vote by a reasonable margin.

Latino men were close, but favoured Harris, everyone else was overwhelmingly Harris.

Young were mostly Harris, and Urban was mostly Harris.

From what I've read, Democrats got 15 million less votes than 4 years ago (and Trump got less too, so it's not like they flipped, just didn't turn out).

[_Os_]

There is another side to this though. The underlying swings to the right is pretty much universal in all western democracies. Look at ACT in NZ for example. Somehow the western democracies have to come to terms with themselves and the progressives who are taking actions that are for a small % of the population but affect everybody. There is a base resentment being created that is too easily manipulated. We need a better social dynamic than us vs them.

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

That list is a good example of how talking about "The West" in a specific context is normally a fail.

Lets take Germany again. There's a split between West and East, which predates the Cold War, it even predates Germany. The East has a Prussian settler/colonial mindset, and always votes for right wing/nationalist/racist parties. It votes for the AfD now, in the Weimar Republic it voted DNVP (opposed democracy, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic) a party which almost didn't exist outside the East, the Nazis were also more heavily supported in the East although had wider support, without the DNVP Hitler probably doesn't gain power. Certainly if all of Germany voted like Bavaria and Rhineland, then Hitler wouldn't have been able to gain power. Even today Bavaria is similar to what it was like in the Weimar, it votes CSU (centre Christian conservative) a party which doesn't stand anywhere else. AfD support is stagnant and located in the East, which shrunk post-WW2.

It's somewhat like the divisions in the UK. Parties exist in NI/Scotland/Wales that don't exist in other parts of the UK, because they have a different national identity. Same as how nationalist/racist parties to the right of Tories do better in England the further north you go and don't exist outside of England, or how the summer race riots also mainly happened in those areas and not much at all in the south. The areas most likely to riot were northern, poorer, medium sized towns/cities that are 95%+ white English.

These are deep historical/cultural/political divisions, they're not really about so called "legitimate concerns" over immigration. In the UK about a year out from the GE I posted Sunak was dumb to focus on immigration and would blow up the Tories if he kept focusing on it, weeks upon weeks the focus was on addressing "legitimate concerns" over immigration. All it did was maximise the Reform vote in areas inclined to vote for it (north of England), maximise the Lib Dem vote in the areas inclined to vote for it (south of England), which produced a historic Tory defeat. Just as I predicted. Starmer gets in, axes Rwanda day one, crushes the rioters, stops talking about immigration every single day and suddenly all the discussion is about how the country is run (taxes/spending etc).

Trump has already run on immigration once and presided over a rise in immigration. He was elected again. Not about rationally addressable "legitimate concerns" over immigration. The people voting Trump because of "legitimate concerns" over immigration are not going to vote Democrat if there's no immigrants, they find a new target instead.

[Slick]

Sorry but what kind of actions are these?

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

That list is a good example of how talking about "The West" in a specific context is normally a fail.

Lets take Germany again. There's a split between West and East, which predates the Cold War, it even predates Germany. The East has a Prussian settler/colonial mindset, and always votes for right wing/nationalist/racist parties. It votes for the AfD now, in the Weimar Republic it voted DNVP (opposed democracy, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic) a party which almost didn't exist outside the East, the Nazis were also more heavily supported in the East although had wider support, without the DNVP Hitler probably doesn't gain power. Certainly if all of Germany voted like Bavaria and Rhineland, then Hitler wouldn't have been able to gain power. Even today Bavaria is similar to what it was like in the Weimar, it votes CSU (centre Christian conservative) a party which doesn't stand anywhere else. AfD support is stagnant and located in the East, which shrunk post-WW2.

It's somewhat like the divisions in the UK. Parties exist in NI/Scotland/Wales that don't exist in other parts of the UK, because they have a different national identity. Same as how nationalist/racist parties to the right of Tories do better in England the further north you go and don't exist outside of England, or how the summer race riots also mainly happened in those areas and not much at all in the south. The areas most likely to riot were northern, poorer, medium sized towns/cities that are 95%+ white English.

These are deep historical/cultural/political divisions, they're not really about so called "legitimate concerns" over immigration. In the UK about a year out from the GE I posted Sunak was dumb to focus on immigration and would blow up the Tories if he kept focusing on it, weeks upon weeks the focus was on addressing "legitimate concerns" over immigration. All it did was maximise the Reform vote in areas inclined to vote for it (north of England), maximise the Lib Dem vote in the areas inclined to vote for it (south of England), which produced a historic Tory defeat. Just as I predicted. Starmer gets in, axes Rwanda day one, crushes the rioters, stops talking about immigration every single day and suddenly all the discussion is about how the country is run (taxes/spending etc).

Trump has already run on immigration once and presided over a rise in immigration. He was elected again. Not about rationally addressable "legitimate concerns" over immigration. The people voting Trump because of "legitimate concerns" over immigration are not going to vote Democrat if there's no immigrants, they find a new target instead.

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

[sockwithaticket]

Basically Trump got the white male vote by a good margin, and the white female vote by a reasonable margin.

Latino men were close, but favoured Harris, everyone else was overwhelmingly Harris.

Young were mostly Harris, and Urban was mostly Harris.

From what I've read, Democrats got 15 million less votes than 4 years ago (and Trump got less too, so it's not like they flipped, just didn't turn out).

Final totals are still somewhat up in the air as Arizona and Nevada have yet to declare (at least going by The Guardian).

Its probably going to be closer to a 10m rather than 15m vote gap between Harris and Biden with Trump staying pretty much static. And that's a hell of a riddle for the Dems to unpick. How did 10m voters see the potential return of Trump and just think 'Nah, no need to bother'.

[sockwithaticket]

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

The concern isn't silly, but who they turn to for a fix generally seems to be.

Here with Reform, the party leadership are all rich, pro-business guys. They might be talking tough on immigration while nowhere near power, but I'll eat my own nuts if they were to actually do anything about if they got in. Like I said in a previous reply to you, business loves migration. The more people coming in, the greater their ability to suppress wages and avoid offering perks to compete for labour. However the right of centre or right present themselves, they almost all broadly buy into the capitalist economic models of the west and have little to no interest in doing anything to reign in the excesses of predatory capitalism.

[Slick]

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

The concern isn't silly, but who they turn to for a fix generally seems to be.

Here with Reform, the party leadership are all rich, pro-business guys. They might be talking tough on immigration while nowhere near power, but I'll eat my own nuts if they were to actually do anything about if they got in. Like I said in a previous reply to you, business loves migration. The more people coming in, the greater their ability to suppress wages and avoid offering perks to compete for labour. However the right of centre or right present themselves, they almost all broadly buy into the capitalist economic models of the west and have little to no interest in doing anything to reign in the excesses of predatory capitalism.

Completely agree with this. None of the main parties will go near it with any real intent so the loons and grifters fill the void. See Trump.

[Sandstorm]

The only way to solve the "immigrant problem" is to make it a non-issue for the man-in-the-street & that is by building lots of new schools, hospitals, prisons and houses. Invest in your infrastructure.

Then it doesn't matter that immigration is happening, most voters aren't adversely affected & the Government in power can campaign on their record.

[_Os_]

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

Look at an election map of Germany, the further east the more AfD which is concentrated in Saxony/Dresden (the most eastern part of Germany which still exists). The East has a different national identity that isn't like the West at all. The East was established through literal crusades and killing/displacing/dominating the Slavs and Balts, it was the first to mass adopt Luther too. The Elbe is the medieval dividing line, which somewhat matches the old GDR border. The East used to vote for any anti-Semitic and/or anti-Catholic party, it now votes for an anti-immigrant party. Bavaria different again, it has always voted for middle of the road Christian conservative parties which have always had a Catholic base. Look at maps of Germany by religion, East during Weimar was strongly Prod whilst Rhineland and Bavaria were strongly Catholic, today East Germany/former GDR is massively atheist (unlike the entire rest of Germany) whilst Bavaria is still Catholic.

That's all just facts about Germany I'm afraid, underneath it all the German national identity is about as real as the British one. I used the comparison to Scotland/NI/Wales, because they also have a different national identity. Where do you think the immigrants are in Germany? Dresden the 90%+ white German city and most of those who aren't are Russians/Poles/Ukrainians (both more native and whiter, than either Glasgow or Edinburgh)? Saxony maybe? East Germany maybe? Berlin which doesn't vote AfD?

The people with "legitimate concerns" over immigration, mostly should be ignored. If the Tories had hired me as their GE campaign manager, I would've told them that and they would've done a lot better.

Trump has lied to people, they have believed his lies because those lies play into their pre-existing biases that are part of their cultural identity (and unlike the UK there is no party to the right of the Republicans to suck up those voters once they're activated on the "legitimate concern" of immigration). They will likely be disappointed again.

[Biffer]

The only way to solve the "immigrant problem" is to make it a non-issue for the man-in-the-street & that is by building lots of new schools, hospitals, prisons and houses. Invest in your infrastructure.

Then it doesn't matter that immigration is happening, most voters aren't adversely affected & the Government in power can campaign on their record.

Yeah. If people could get a doctor's appointment, their kids schools were good, their roads in decent condition and they were getting pay rises a wee bit above inflation, theyd give far less of a shit. They'd be more interested in the food folk were bringing with them and how great it was.

[Thor Sedan]

Trump has lied to people, they have believed his lies because those lies play into their pre-existing biases that are part of their cultural identity (and unlike the UK there is no party to the right of the Republicans to suck up those voters once they're activated on the "legitimate concern" of immigration). They will likely be disappointed again.

People believed those lies because the right in the US have MASSIVE media/propaganda infrastructure that the left will never have.

trump could get up on stage and literally fart into the microphone and media would celebrate it as owning the left. Fox and cronies, Shapiro, Tim Pool, Rubin and the likes of piers morgan are instrumental in this.

And then there are the likes of TYT and their ilk - they try to both sides it - but just end up grading trump on a completely different curve.

The US is lost and it is going to right royally mess up the world. Russia and China are absolutely LOVING this.

[Biffer]

Immigration. The states, UK, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, France etc etc, it’s immigration

That list is a good example of how talking about "The West" in a specific context is normally a fail.

Lets take Germany again. There's a split between West and East, which predates the Cold War, it even predates Germany. The East has a Prussian settler/colonial mindset, and always votes for right wing/nationalist/racist parties. It votes for the AfD now, in the Weimar Republic it voted DNVP (opposed democracy, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic) a party which almost didn't exist outside the East, the Nazis were also more heavily supported in the East although had wider support, without the DNVP Hitler probably doesn't gain power. Certainly if all of Germany voted like Bavaria and Rhineland, then Hitler wouldn't have been able to gain power. Even today Bavaria is similar to what it was like in the Weimar, it votes CSU (centre Christian conservative) a party which doesn't stand anywhere else. AfD support is stagnant and located in the East, which shrunk post-WW2.

It's somewhat like the divisions in the UK. Parties exist in NI/Scotland/Wales that don't exist in other parts of the UK, because they have a different national identity. Same as how nationalist/racist parties to the right of Tories do better in England the further north you go and don't exist outside of England, or how the summer race riots also mainly happened in those areas and not much at all in the south. The areas most likely to riot were northern, poorer, medium sized towns/cities that are 95%+ white English.

These are deep historical/cultural/political divisions, they're not really about so called "legitimate concerns" over immigration. In the UK about a year out from the GE I posted Sunak was dumb to focus on immigration and would blow up the Tories if he kept focusing on it, weeks upon weeks the focus was on addressing "legitimate concerns" over immigration. All it did was maximise the Reform vote in areas inclined to vote for it (north of England), maximise the Lib Dem vote in the areas inclined to vote for it (south of England), which produced a historic Tory defeat. Just as I predicted. Starmer gets in, axes Rwanda day one, crushes the rioters, stops talking about immigration every single day and suddenly all the discussion is about how the country is run (taxes/spending etc).

Trump has already run on immigration once and presided over a rise in immigration. He was elected again. Not about rationally addressable "legitimate concerns" over immigration. The people voting Trump because of "legitimate concerns" over immigration are not going to vote Democrat if there's no immigrants, they find a new target instead.

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

If that is the case, why are all the reform MPs in 90%+ white constituencies?

The real problem is as Sandstorm said above - jobs, hospitals, schools, roads, public transport, etc - the national infrastructure. People have been fed the lie that problems with it are all down the there being too many immigrants, rather than it being down to cuts and lack of investment. The pressure caused by immigration on those things is in the noise and removing it would have very little effect.

[Paddington Bear]

The Tories lost heavily when campaigning on immigration because they have presided over the largest demographic transition in British history, not because it is a nothing issue! No one believed that they’d reduce it.

And whilst there is some truth behind the ‘real issue’ being services etc., at some point the ‘left’ will need to start taking people at their word that the issue is numbers above all and that people tend to dislike demographic change. If you want to ignore it be my guest but we see once more where it leads

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Trump will ignore many important drivers of migration, intentionally so. So it'd be okay to say migration is a problem, but there is also a problem too many people are happy with moronic solutions and gesture politics, because if anyone thinks immigration is a problem and then votes Trump that person is so stupid they shouldn't be trusted with velcro shoes

[Slick]

That list is a good example of how talking about "The West" in a specific context is normally a fail.

Lets take Germany again. There's a split between West and East, which predates the Cold War, it even predates Germany. The East has a Prussian settler/colonial mindset, and always votes for right wing/nationalist/racist parties. It votes for the AfD now, in the Weimar Republic it voted DNVP (opposed democracy, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic) a party which almost didn't exist outside the East, the Nazis were also more heavily supported in the East although had wider support, without the DNVP Hitler probably doesn't gain power. Certainly if all of Germany voted like Bavaria and Rhineland, then Hitler wouldn't have been able to gain power. Even today Bavaria is similar to what it was like in the Weimar, it votes CSU (centre Christian conservative) a party which doesn't stand anywhere else. AfD support is stagnant and located in the East, which shrunk post-WW2.

It's somewhat like the divisions in the UK. Parties exist in NI/Scotland/Wales that don't exist in other parts of the UK, because they have a different national identity. Same as how nationalist/racist parties to the right of Tories do better in England the further north you go and don't exist outside of England, or how the summer race riots also mainly happened in those areas and not much at all in the south. The areas most likely to riot were northern, poorer, medium sized towns/cities that are 95%+ white English.

These are deep historical/cultural/political divisions, they're not really about so called "legitimate concerns" over immigration. In the UK about a year out from the GE I posted Sunak was dumb to focus on immigration and would blow up the Tories if he kept focusing on it, weeks upon weeks the focus was on addressing "legitimate concerns" over immigration. All it did was maximise the Reform vote in areas inclined to vote for it (north of England), maximise the Lib Dem vote in the areas inclined to vote for it (south of England), which produced a historic Tory defeat. Just as I predicted. Starmer gets in, axes Rwanda day one, crushes the rioters, stops talking about immigration every single day and suddenly all the discussion is about how the country is run (taxes/spending etc).

Trump has already run on immigration once and presided over a rise in immigration. He was elected again. Not about rationally addressable "legitimate concerns" over immigration. The people voting Trump because of "legitimate concerns" over immigration are not going to vote Democrat if there's no immigrants, they find a new target instead.

Don't agree with pretty much any of that.

Germany is because of a direct result of allowing a million refugee/immigrants to arrive. No country can deal with that.

The issues around immigration in Scotland/NI/Wales don't exist to the same extent because they don't have large immigrant populations.

By any sane measure, immigration has gone up massively during Bidens tenure. I agree, Trump did pretty much fuck all to stop it despite his bluster though.

This is just the same old, same old, telling people who have concerns that they are very silly indeed.

If that is the case, why are all the reform MPs in 90%+ white constituencies?

The real problem is as Sandstorm said above - jobs, hospitals, schools, roads, public transport, etc - the national infrastructure. People have been fed the lie that problems with it are all down the there being too many immigrants, rather than it being down to cuts and lack of investment. The pressure caused by immigration on those things is in the noise and removing it would have very little effect.

But if you are effectively adding a large town every year, in terms of numbers, but without additional infrastructure then the two go hand in hand?

[Slick]

The Tories lost heavily when campaigning on immigration because they have presided over the largest demographic transition in British history, not because it is a nothing issue! No one believed that they’d reduce it.

And whilst there is some truth behind the ‘real issue’ being services etc., at some point the ‘left’ will need to start taking people at their word that the issue is numbers above all and that people tend to dislike demographic change. If you want to ignore it be my guest but we see once more where it leads

Well, exactly. Choose Brexit and the numbers will tumble. Ahh sorry, they went up

[robmatic]

The Tories lost heavily when campaigning on immigration because they have presided over the largest demographic transition in British history, not because it is a nothing issue! No one believed that they’d reduce it.

And whilst there is some truth behind the ‘real issue’ being services etc., at some point the ‘left’ will need to start taking people at their word that the issue is numbers above all and that people tend to dislike demographic change. If you want to ignore it be my guest but we see once more where it leads

Also one of the big arguments for immigration is for the economic benefits, but as a typical voter you are probably not seeing many of these. No spending on services/infrastructure, you still get some really punitive taxes on income, and you just experienced a big whack of inflation.

[JM2K6]

Given that the Harris campaign promised to be tough on immigration, that Biden kept up trump's work in deporting people and stopping huge numbers at the border, and that the republicans blocked bipartisan legislation to beef up border security and funding for border agents, I don't really know what the complaint is here. It genuinely feels like people are making huge assumptions what Biden, Harris, and the Democrat machine did vs what people think they did.

The left has little to do with any of this. Biden was historically unpopular by the time he bailed, Harris came in and immediately cratered the moment she announced she was a Biden clone who wouldn't do anything different, Bill fucking Clinton gave a speech that essentially said it was fine for Palestinian kids to be killed en masse, and most of the focus was on outreach to swing voters - by which they meant "republicans who might switch". Wanking on about having republicans in their team, tacking to the right on policy, getting Liz fucking Cheney on board, targeting suburban Republican women - everything they said and did was basically Republican-lite.

People need to understand that guys who spout off about " woke scolds" like the dude quoted above are not potential Democrat voters in any real sense.

The only thing that rings true with that quote is the unintentional link of the party with corporate America. That is exactly what it is: it exists to make huge amounts of money, it is there to defend itself and the status quo, and it would rather lose than have capital affected in any way. These people don't actually stand for anything, just like how corporations pay lip service to progressive values in public and then fuck everyone for a percentage. They are grasping, greedy fools who recognise that the most important thing is to keep the money coming in, and being in opposition makes fund raising easier.

Actually progressive issues on the ballots largely did great. Actual progressives were voted for. Corporate snakes in human skin suits who view this all as a game that is played solely for the benefit of the donors and beneficiaries do not inspire people to vote for them, because they clearly stand for nothing and they abandon their fake principles the moment that capital is threatened. And so a number of people on the left recognise the threat from Trump, but also recognise the threat from a Democrat party that does not represent the left or the working class in any meaningful way, who gleefully crack down on protest and civil liberties, who do nothing to protect or enhance the rights of those they pretend to represent, who even more gleefully fund and supply an ongoing massacre of a trapped population, and who would do little with power except entrench the status quo even further. A status quo that is already incredibly shit for workers in the US.

You have to give people something to vote for. When the machine of US politics is laid bare like this, people rightly turn their noses up.

[Hal Jordan]

Seen online - "Voters primarily care about their personal finances at the same time as being financially illiterate"..

[JM2K6]

Seen online - "Voters primarily care about their personal finances at the same time as being financially illiterate"..

The dems kept telling people how great the economy is while wages have stagnated and groceries are twice as expensive