Eng v Aus thread ?

[JM2K6]

Actually looking back I don't think Smith had a choice once Sleightholme got handed off initially

Agree..he has to step in there.

He definitely didn’t. But I don’t want to be too harsh on him (believe it or not) because he had a decent game and shouldn’t have been put in that position

I thought he made a few too many errors, and missed some tackles he normally wouldn't. Not surprised he stepped up with several big moments though. Idiotic to move him from 10 again, it cost us another try.

But in they attack, Sleightholme got handed off and his man was accelerating - any defender there is faced with Hobson's choice. Difficult to trust the inside man when he's failed the initial tackle and is having to chase a man ahead of him.

[JM2K6]

England are turning into chokers now it has to be said , Woodward’s days of TCUP are long gone

If Itoje had just had the wit to see the kick wasn't going ten, & let it hit the ground; then it was an English scrum on halfway, with less than a minute to go. For someone who's supposed to be one of the smart ones, it was dumb

When was Itoje credited with being smart? He's been a dim pen machine for years.

Well, I'm smart enough to rewind and see that the ball clearly was going over the 10, so all this wanking on about Itoje being thick is extremely misplaced

[el capitan]

I actually think the stop playing when you're ahead criticism is a little bit unfair for that one.

For me going slow and pragmatic would have suited England more today. That middle 40 odd minutes was like basketball with it just going back and forth, and too many England players just couldn't live with the pace of proceedings, in play time, and the amount of ground they had to cover.

We then got back into it by being a bit simpler for a few mins and running some hard lines at them and building some territorial pressure.

Then gave away the try by overplaying - badly. The move was so obvious and never set up right, the Ford pass was slightly off, and Lawrence's run really off as he had so much margin for error and overcooked it. All those outside looked to have overshot also, so something had gone wrong with the timing.

Still got back ahead, only for crazy defensive reads to open the door again.

The problem today was just really the meat and drink of what we have seen under Borthwick - in flashes we play some rugby, but the base skills and play is usually stuttering and full of errors and quite often lacking idea. Whilst the defence was just comedic. Someone come to their senses and get rid of this spoofer.

[Torquemada 1420]

If Itoje had just had the wit to see the kick wasn't going ten, & let it hit the ground; then it was an English scrum on halfway, with less than a minute to go. For someone who's supposed to be one of the smart ones, it was dumb

When was Itoje credited with being smart? He's been a dim pen machine for years.

He went to Harrow, got 5 A levels and then a masters in Politics from SOAS

Source: www.itoje.com

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If Itoje had just had the wit to see the kick wasn't going ten, & let it hit the ground; then it was an English scrum on halfway, with less than a minute to go. For someone who's supposed to be one of the smart ones, it was dumb

When was Itoje credited with being smart? He's been a dim pen machine for years.

He went to Harrow, got 5 A levels and then a masters in Politics from SOAS

Source: www.itoje.com

A chap I know taught Maro Itoje and had nothing but good things to say about him. He also described Owen Farrell as 'gobby and a bit dim'

[Torquemada 1420]

Well, I'm smart enough to rewind and see that the ball clearly was going over the 10, so all this wanking on about Itoje being thick is extremely misplaced

I think you just added weight to my point!

[petej]

I actually think the stop playing when you're ahead criticism is a little bit unfair for that one.

For me going slow and pragmatic would have suited England more today. That middle 40 odd minutes was like basketball with it just going back and forth, and too many England players just couldn't live with the pace of proceedings, in play time, and the amount of ground they had to cover.

We then got back into it by being a bit simpler for a few mins and running some hard lines at them and building some territorial pressure.

Then gave away the try by overplaying - badly. The move was so obvious and never set up right, the Ford pass was slightly off, and Lawrence's run really off as he had so much margin for error and overcooked it. All those outside looked to have overshot also, so something had gone wrong with the timing.

Still got back ahead, only for crazy defensive reads to open the door again.

The problem today was just really the meat and drink of what we have seen under Borthwick - in flashes we play some rugby, but the base skills and play is usually stuttering and full of errors and quite often lacking idea. Whilst the defence was just comedic. Someone come to their senses and get rid of this spoofer.

We do stop playing with the ball. There are different ways of playing with the ball but once we get out in front we endlessly kick the ball to the opposition to attack us.

[Yeeb]

When was Itoje credited with being smart? He's been a dim pen machine for years.

He went to Harrow, got 5 A levels and then a masters in Politics from SOAS

Source: www.itoje.com

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

Those quotas have to be filled somehow

[JM2K6]

I actually think the stop playing when you're ahead criticism is a little bit unfair for that one.

For me going slow and pragmatic would have suited England more today. That middle 40 odd minutes was like basketball with it just going back and forth, and too many England players just couldn't live with the pace of proceedings, in play time, and the amount of ground they had to cover.

We then got back into it by being a bit simpler for a few mins and running some hard lines at them and building some territorial pressure.

Then gave away the try by overplaying - badly. The move was so obvious and never set up right, the Ford pass was slightly off, and Lawrence's run really off as he had so much margin for error and overcooked it. All those outside looked to have overshot also, so something had gone wrong with the timing.

Still got back ahead, only for crazy defensive reads to open the door again.

The problem today was just really the meat and drink of what we have seen under Borthwick - in flashes we play some rugby, but the base skills and play is usually stuttering and full of errors and quite often lacking idea. Whilst the defence was just comedic. Someone come to their senses and get rid of this spoofer.

We do stop playing with the ball. There are different ways of playing with the ball but once we get out in front we endlessly kick the ball to the opposition to attack us.

The one where Harry Randall, noted tactical kicker, got a box kick charged down inside the Aussie half is a good example of this

[PCPhil]

He went to Harrow, got 5 A levels and then a masters in Politics from SOAS

Source: www.itoje.com

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

Those quotas have to be filled somehow

Bit edgy?

[Yeeb]

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

Those quotas have to be filled somehow

Bit edgy?

You new here ?

[Torquemada 1420]

He went to Harrow, got 5 A levels and then a masters in Politics from SOAS

Source: www.itoje.com

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

Those quotas have to be filled somehow

[Slick]

Agree..he has to step in there.

He definitely didn’t. But I don’t want to be too harsh on him (believe it or not) because he had a decent game and shouldn’t have been put in that position

I thought he made a few too many errors, and missed some tackles he normally wouldn't. Not surprised he stepped up with several big moments though. Idiotic to move him from 10 again, it cost us another try.

But in they attack, Sleightholme got handed off and his man was accelerating - any defender there is faced with Hobson's choice. Difficult to trust the inside man when he's failed the initial tackle and is having to chase a man ahead of him.

It is, but he has to, he was never going to prevent the pass to the outside man for the run in

Edit: but totally agree, to move him from from 10 2 weeks running is unforgivable really.

My only real criticism of him was that in that 30 mins or so that Aussie were good and England were terrible he went missing. So did the rest of them of course but you just expect the best 10’s to make more of an intervention

[petej]

Diane Abbot got a degree from Cambridge......

SOAS And politics is as creditworthy as meeejuh studies.

Those quotas have to be filled somehow

Part of a dynamic political duo. Diane and jezza then kwasi and Liz.

[JM2K6]

He definitely didn’t. But I don’t want to be too harsh on him (believe it or not) because he had a decent game and shouldn’t have been put in that position

I thought he made a few too many errors, and missed some tackles he normally wouldn't. Not surprised he stepped up with several big moments though. Idiotic to move him from 10 again, it cost us another try.

But in they attack, Sleightholme got handed off and his man was accelerating - any defender there is faced with Hobson's choice. Difficult to trust the inside man when he's failed the initial tackle and is having to chase a man ahead of him.

It is, but he has to, he was never going to prevent the pass to the outside man for the run in

Edit: but totally agree, to move him from from 10 2 weeks running is unforgivable really.

My only real criticism of him was that in that 30 mins or so that Aussie were good and England were terrible he went missing. So did the rest of them of course but you just expect the best 10’s to make more of an intervention

That's a bit backwards for me. When England were terrible it's because our defence was all over the place and our pack was getting brutally gangbanged. Dan Carter wouldn't be making much of an intervention in that scenario, particularly in a team that so readily goes to box kicks from 9. Given it's his interventions that got us back into the game in the first place I'm not sure how fair it is to point a finger at him.

His stupid little chip in the Aussie half fairly early in the game nearly cost us badly and he was sometimes predictable with ball in hand in wider spaces after that; as soon as England got a sniff of quarter decent ball he made it count, though.

[OomStruisbaai]

Boks in for a hard game next week. 6 days turn around is going to be hectic against England.

[petej]

Boks in for a hard game next week. 6 days turn around is going to be hectic against England.

They really aren't. South Africa comfortably hammered Australia twice. You should be beating us by a margin of 20+ points.

[dpedin]

I thought the Aussies played pretty smart rugby today. They kept moving the ball around changing the point of contact and making Englands big pack look very cumbersome, gaps opened up around the fringes and they exploited them. They also kept the ball in play for long periods of time and you could see some of the English pack breathing through their arses. England pack are very good forward up the pitch but struggle moving across and going back. Once again Smith, Lawerence and Slade axis was awful in defence and the Aussies found gaps through middle and out wide which they capitalised on. Aussies did their homework and it showed.

England need to shift a few of the older guys in the pack, find a new partner for Lawrence and get a new defence coach.

[Flockwitt]

Any team that missed as many tackles as England did should lose a test match. Nothing rocket science in that.

What was to be commended was Oz's continued belief and attempt to go forward. For a team that's been on the receiving end of bunch of torrid thumpings they showed real character.

[epwc]

Boks in for a hard game next week. 6 days turn around is going to be hectic against England.

They really aren't. South Africa comfortably hammered Australia twice. You should be beating us by a margin of 20+ points.

Yep, we shouldn’t trouble the boks

[JM2K6]

Any team that missed as many tackles as England did should lose a test match. Nothing rocket science in that.

What was to be commended was Oz's continued belief and attempt to go forward. For a team that's been on the receiving end of bunch of torrid thumpings they showed real character.

England will always struggle against teams willing to bring that defence onto them and trust in their footwork and handling. Which is good news for anyone wanting to watch at least one team play good attacking rugby, anyway

[sockwithaticket]

I thought the Aussies played pretty smart rugby today. They kept moving the ball around changing the point of contact and making Englands big pack look very cumbersome, gaps opened up around the fringes and they exploited them. They also kept the ball in play for long periods of time and you could see some of the English pack breathing through their arses. England pack are very good forward up the pitch but struggle moving across and going back. Once again Smith, Lawerence and Slade axis was awful in defence and the Aussies found gaps through middle and out wide which they capitalised on. Aussies did their homework and it showed.

England need to shift a few of the older guys in the pack, find a new partner for Lawrence and get a new defence coach.

I think doing that is rather what's got us in such a mess. Joe El-Abd has just started as defence coach this series with Felix Jones having gone on gardening leave shortly after we seemed to be bedding in his system.

[Paddington Bear]

Just watched the game. Must admit I was always worried about this one - that Oz would target this was visible from space. Defence appalling and handling poor once more. It was a good final try but you can’t concede like that.

Fairly desperate stuff. Our pack will be utterly manshamed next week, 1 win autumn

[dpedin]

I thought the Aussies played pretty smart rugby today. They kept moving the ball around changing the point of contact and making Englands big pack look very cumbersome, gaps opened up around the fringes and they exploited them. They also kept the ball in play for long periods of time and you could see some of the English pack breathing through their arses. England pack are very good forward up the pitch but struggle moving across and going back. Once again Smith, Lawerence and Slade axis was awful in defence and the Aussies found gaps through middle and out wide which they capitalised on. Aussies did their homework and it showed.

England need to shift a few of the older guys in the pack, find a new partner for Lawrence and get a new defence coach.

I think doing that is rather what's got us in such a mess. Joe El-Abd has just started as defence coach this series with Felix Jones having gone on gardening leave shortly after we seemed to be bedding in his system.

Ah ... hadn't realized that. He has his work cut out for him then!

England defence in the backs is just awful, no structure, no coordination and poor tackling techniques. Slade and Lawrence were just lost in defence - Lawrence is a better player than this but playing with Slade must rock his confidence. The Aussies had done their homework and focused on the 10-12-13 channels. As a result Aussies were able to isolate English wingers and go either inside or outside them. Smith is a wonderful 10 but he ain't a 15 and he didn't cover himself in glory when shifted back there.

England had that game in the palm of their hand - ahead with 5 mins to go just play it boring, keep it tight, go through phases, kick to their 22, chase hard and challenge them to run 100m for a try. Instead England go out to backs in middle of the park, Lawrence overruns the poor pass, drops it and Aussies run it in. Even with 80mins on the clock and England back in the lead how on hell did the Aussies find that much space out wide from almost half way? So so poor, utter brainfarts!

[Uncle fester]

What baffles me is how buccaneering Australia are under Schmidt, when his Ireland side were a tough watch.

[epwc]

Let’s hope they keep this spirit, good Oz sides are a joy to watch

[SaintK]

I thought the Aussies played pretty smart rugby today. They kept moving the ball around changing the point of contact and making Englands big pack look very cumbersome, gaps opened up around the fringes and they exploited them. They also kept the ball in play for long periods of time and you could see some of the English pack breathing through their arses. England pack are very good forward up the pitch but struggle moving across and going back. Once again Smith, Lawerence and Slade axis was awful in defence and the Aussies found gaps through middle and out wide which they capitalised on. Aussies did their homework and it showed.

England need to shift a few of the older guys in the pack, find a new partner for Lawrence and get a new defence coach.

I think doing that is rather what's got us in such a mess. Joe El-Abd has just started as defence coach this series with Felix Jones having gone on gardening leave shortly after we seemed to be bedding in his system.

Ah ... hadn't realized that. He has his work cut out for him then!

England defence in the backs is just awful, no structure, no coordination and poor tackling techniques. Slade and Lawrence were just lost in defence - Lawrence is a better player than this but playing with Slade must rock his confidence. The Aussies had done their homework and focused on the 10-12-13 channels. As a result Aussies were able to isolate English wingers and go either inside or outside them. Smith is a wonderful 10 but he ain't a 15 and he didn't cover himself in glory when shifted back there.

England had that game in the palm of their hand - ahead with 5 mins to go just play it boring, keep it tight, go through phases, kick to their 22, chase hard and challenge them to run 100m for a try. Instead England go out to backs in middle of the park, Lawrence overruns the poor pass, drops it and Aussies run it in. Even with 80mins on the clock and England back in the lead how on hell did the Aussies find that much space out wide from almost half way? So so poor, utter brainfarts!

To be fair to Lawrence the poor sod had no chance to catch the pass let alone drop it. Ford's dreadful pass hit him on the shoulder blade

[JM2K6]

Joe El-Abd is a bizarre choice as defence coach anyway. His Oyannax side finished bottom of the top14 last season and conceded 99 tries, 9 more than the next worst. They're a decent pro d2 side but surely there is a better option as defence coach? He wasn't even the best English coach called Joe in the top 14.

[sockwithaticket]

You can only pick from who puts themselves up for the job. How many top coaches are desperate to jack in their current roles and join an England set up that seems to have chronic instabiity with the assistant coaches and back room staff?

[inactionman]

Joe El-Abd is a bizarre choice as defence coach anyway. His Oyannax side finished bottom of the top14 last season and conceded 99 tries, 9 more than the next worst. They're a decent pro d2 side but surely there is a better option as defence coach? He wasn't even the best English coach called Joe in the top 14.

He passed the all-important 'best mates with Borthwick' test.

In seriousness, I do get the need to ensure that staff are capable of working together, but you'd think that would just mean rooting out the arseholes and problem characters (assuming the arsehole isn't the head coach, eh, Eddie) and not just employing your mates

[Paddington Bear]

I think doing that is rather what's got us in such a mess. Joe El-Abd has just started as defence coach this series with Felix Jones having gone on gardening leave shortly after we seemed to be bedding in his system.

Ah ... hadn't realized that. He has his work cut out for him then!

England defence in the backs is just awful, no structure, no coordination and poor tackling techniques. Slade and Lawrence were just lost in defence - Lawrence is a better player than this but playing with Slade must rock his confidence. The Aussies had done their homework and focused on the 10-12-13 channels. As a result Aussies were able to isolate English wingers and go either inside or outside them. Smith is a wonderful 10 but he ain't a 15 and he didn't cover himself in glory when shifted back there.

England had that game in the palm of their hand - ahead with 5 mins to go just play it boring, keep it tight, go through phases, kick to their 22, chase hard and challenge them to run 100m for a try. Instead England go out to backs in middle of the park, Lawrence overruns the poor pass, drops it and Aussies run it in. Even with 80mins on the clock and England back in the lead how on hell did the Aussies find that much space out wide from almost half way? So so poor, utter brainfarts!

To be fair to Lawrence the poor sod had no chance to catch the pass let alone drop it. Ford's dreadful pass hit him on the shoulder blade

Ford two weeks running has looked below the level and been complicit in events that cost us the game

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I think doing that is rather what's got us in such a mess. Joe El-Abd has just started as defence coach this series with Felix Jones having gone on gardening leave shortly after we seemed to be bedding in his system.

Ah ... hadn't realized that. He has his work cut out for him then!

England defence in the backs is just awful, no structure, no coordination and poor tackling techniques. Slade and Lawrence were just lost in defence - Lawrence is a better player than this but playing with Slade must rock his confidence. The Aussies had done their homework and focused on the 10-12-13 channels. As a result Aussies were able to isolate English wingers and go either inside or outside them. Smith is a wonderful 10 but he ain't a 15 and he didn't cover himself in glory when shifted back there.

England had that game in the palm of their hand - ahead with 5 mins to go just play it boring, keep it tight, go through phases, kick to their 22, chase hard and challenge them to run 100m for a try. Instead England go out to backs in middle of the park, Lawrence overruns the poor pass, drops it and Aussies run it in. Even with 80mins on the clock and England back in the lead how on hell did the Aussies find that much space out wide from almost half way? So so poor, utter brainfarts!

To be fair to Lawrence the poor sod had no chance to catch the pass let alone drop it. Ford's dreadful pass hit him on the shoulder blade

To be fair to England I don't think that move was an especially bad call. I don't want them to go negative, and clearly it was a chance to attack that happened to go wrong.

I don't even want to have a pop at Lawrence for over running the play, he doesn't awfully until the defender pushes up on Ford really cramping that pass, but we do need to keep in mind the defence will not always back off as one might like. In this we perhaps need to look at whoever was running the decoy line off Slade (was it Earl?) because it held no one, blocked no one, and simply resulted in our decoy runner falling over and being out of the game, and that's where the chance to leave some space went. I suppose Ford could still have hit Randall but that's not a comfortable play to make because if Randall is scragged, and I doubt he would have been in this instance but hindsight is a wonderful thing, that's going to feel like you'll have played yourself right into the shit.

I'd have more issue with some of the needless losing the ball in contact more than Lawrence getting ahead of Ford and Ford forcing a bad pass, and as above more an issue with our decoy line.

[JM2K6]

Seems like it was a bad idea to move the fly half and bring on one with very little game time or form under his belt, hey

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I rarely see why you'd want to swap a starting 10. They're in the game, it's not an especially fatiguing role, you picked 'em so let them play.

[Sandstorm]

What baffles me is how buccaneering Australia are under Schmidt, when his Ireland side were a tough watch.

This is very new for Schmidt from Downunder. In the RC Wallabies were conservative and pedestrian.

[JM2K6]

What baffles me is how buccaneering Australia are under Schmidt, when his Ireland side were a tough watch.

This is very new for Schmidt from Downunder. In the RC Wallabies were conservative and pedestrian.

No one else has a kamikaze defence that'll cough up tries from anywhere with their insane gambling on every play