The Quota System

[epwc]

I know a LOT of rugby fans were rabid about racial quotas for the Boks but they seem to have worked don't they?

The Boks are a great example of a mixed race team, and great ambassadors for their country and sport, how long would it have taken to shake off the "rugby is a white mans sport" mentality without quotas?

I was thinking of asking this a few weeks ago but forgot completely till Biffer mentioned quotas on another thread

[Guy Smiley]

I'd forgotten all that... the bitching about quota players used to be a regular thing and now, those posters are quiet, reduced to relentless trolling of other nations' game threads for attention.

It's sad to see such a fall from relevance for the hard men. The tough guys. All brandy and coke, car park cooking and guttural bluster. Now they skulk about the suburbs of Perth and Auckland trying to organise right wing takeover of political movements while moaning about the cost of cheap labour.

[epwc]

I'd forgotten all that... the bitching about quota players used to be a regular thing and now, those posters are quiet, reduced to relentless trolling of other nations' game threads for attention.

It's sad to see such a fall from relevance for the hard men. The tough guys. All brandy and coke, car park cooking and guttural bluster. Now they skulk about the suburbs of Perth and Auckland trying to organise right wing takeover of political movements while moaning about the cost of cheap labour.

Thems the ones

[Sandstorm]

Is this supposed to be bait?

[OomStruisbaai]

There is only one way to select a sports team and that is merit. You find this on our schoolboy level.

Our rugby schools is much more mix now, so they give the platform. If you go to franchise level , it's the Stormers and Sharks representing the most PoCs.

However Rassie have a very different way of managing this compare to the previous coaches. Making Kolisi captain was a master stroke. He use the Laurie Mains experience as captain with Conrad Jantjes.

For the first time our Min of sport join in. The previous ministers only did head counting. The current one have a totally different approach .

He don't do head counting rather want to invest to make rugby more accessible in the poor areas.

[Biffer]

I know a LOT of rugby fans were rabid about racial quotas for the Boks but they seem to have worked don't they?

The Boks are a great example of a mixed race team, and great ambassadors for their country and sport, how long would it have taken to shake off the "rugby is a white mans sport" mentality without quotas?

I was thinking of asking this a few weeks ago but forgot completely till Biffer mentioned quotas on another thread

Yep, absolutely works in rugby. Not sure it’s quite so clear in cricket, but give it more time.

[Paddington Bear]

I know a LOT of rugby fans were rabid about racial quotas for the Boks but they seem to have worked don't they?

The Boks are a great example of a mixed race team, and great ambassadors for their country and sport, how long would it have taken to shake off the "rugby is a white mans sport" mentality without quotas?

I was thinking of asking this a few weeks ago but forgot completely till Biffer mentioned quotas on another thread

Yep, absolutely works in rugby. Not sure it’s quite so clear in cricket, but give it more time.

Becoming a top cricketer takes longer and has a higher correlation with your education as it is a technical sport requiring thousands of hours to master, this is easier to do from a private school with dedicated and very skilled cricket coaches. Same happens over here.

[OomStruisbaai]

The same structures we have in rugby is in cricket aswell. The Soutie schools is better in cricket. We have Craven week in rugby, Nuffield in cricket. So cricket have no excuse. We went through a tough time in cricket.

[Harveys]

There is only one way to select a sports team and that is merit. You find this on our schoolboy level.

Our rugby schools is much more mix now, so they give the platform. If you go to franchise level , it's the Stormers and Sharks representing the most PoCs.

However Rassie have a very different way of managing this compare to the previous coaches. Making Kolisi captain was a master stroke. He use the Laurie Mains experience as captain with Conrad Jantjes.

For the first time our Min of sport join in. The previous ministers only did head counting. The current one have a totally different approach .

He don't do head counting rather want to invest to make rugby more accessible in the poor areas.

You guys had change forced upon you because you couldn’t see past the end of your noses that there are superior athletes all around you for reasons best left unsaid. Why cant you just say that forced change helped you get to where you are now instead of spinning some “Rassie masterstroke” nonsense.

[Jethro]

Is this supposed to be bait?

Did I mention former tough guy Saffa posters now more concerned about how they are going to get Taylor Swift tickets, we are a long way from Saffas invading the pitch to tackle the Ref ... sad really

[OomStruisbaai]

There is only one way to select a sports team and that is merit. You find this on our schoolboy level.

Our rugby schools is much more mix now, so they give the platform. If you go to franchise level , it's the Stormers and Sharks representing the most PoCs.

However Rassie have a very different way of managing this compare to the previous coaches. Making Kolisi captain was a master stroke. He use the Laurie Mains experience as captain with Conrad Jantjes.

For the first time our Min of sport join in. The previous ministers only did head counting. The current one have a totally different approach .

He don't do head counting rather want to invest to make rugby more accessible in the poor areas.

You guys had change forced upon you because you couldn’t see past the end of your noses that there are superior athletes all around you for reasons best left unsaid. Why cant you just say that forced change helped you get to where you are now instead of spinning some “Rassie masterstroke” nonsense.

Kak man. You have no idea. Remember Jake White. He got fired after winning the WC in 2007.

[Tichtheid]

I realise this is an incendiary topic, but if there was masterstroke surely it was Mandela's and his approach to the Springboks?

[Sandstorm]

There is only one way to select a sports team and that is merit. You find this on our schoolboy level.

Our rugby schools is much more mix now, so they give the platform. If you go to franchise level , it's the Stormers and Sharks representing the most PoCs.

However Rassie have a very different way of managing this compare to the previous coaches. Making Kolisi captain was a master stroke. He use the Laurie Mains experience as captain with Conrad Jantjes.

For the first time our Min of sport join in. The previous ministers only did head counting. The current one have a totally different approach .

He don't do head counting rather want to invest to make rugby more accessible in the poor areas.

You guys had change forced upon you because you couldn’t see past the end of your noses that there are superior athletes all around you for reasons best left unsaid. Why cant you just say that forced change helped you get to where you are now instead of spinning some “Rassie masterstroke” nonsense.

It’s not about the players, it’s the coaches. Look at SA soccer - millions of players and dollars and they’re still shithouse.

[fishfoodie]

I know a LOT of rugby fans were rabid about racial quotas for the Boks but they seem to have worked don't they?

The Boks are a great example of a mixed race team, and great ambassadors for their country and sport, how long would it have taken to shake off the "rugby is a white mans sport" mentality without quotas?

I was thinking of asking this a few weeks ago but forgot completely till Biffer mentioned quotas on another thread

Yep, absolutely works in rugby. Not sure it’s quite so clear in cricket, but give it more time.

Different sports have different equations for what makes a successful player.

It's going to be a combination of physic, aptitude, coaching, dedication etc etc; but the ratios between sports are going to be different, so while you might have only been a mid-tier sprinter, with a bit of extra couching you could become a medal winning bobsled crew member !

I was a bloody skillful hurler, but being a short-arse, in my generation I was never going to get anywhere. In rugby, at the schools level of my generation, I wasn't unusually small as a SH, but today the SH's are significantly larger, as players are across the board, I had the requisite skills, but I was going to get smashed at every contact & was very quickly going to get sick of it !

[epwc]

Is this supposed to be bait?

Not at all. I’m generally very pro meritocracy but it just struck me the other week that the Boks would probably nowhere near as mixed now without the quota system, and of course that it really has worked out well for them

[epwc]

It’s not about the players, it’s the coaches. Look at SA soccer - millions of players and dollars and they’re still shithouse.

That’s all to do with the fact that (asi understand it) football was a street game for black kids whereas rugby was properly taught at white schools and there was already a system of professional clubs in place (hence lots of coaches) a huge international brand doesn’t hurt either.

[_Os_]

There is only one way to select a sports team and that is merit. You find this on our schoolboy level.

Our rugby schools is much more mix now, so they give the platform. If you go to franchise level , it's the Stormers and Sharks representing the most PoCs.

However Rassie have a very different way of managing this compare to the previous coaches. Making Kolisi captain was a master stroke. He use the Laurie Mains experience as captain with Conrad Jantjes.

For the first time our Min of sport join in. The previous ministers only did head counting. The current one have a totally different approach .

He don't do head counting rather want to invest to make rugby more accessible in the poor areas.

You guys had change forced upon you because you couldn’t see past the end of your noses that there are superior athletes all around you for reasons best left unsaid. Why cant you just say that forced change helped you get to where you are now instead of spinning some “Rassie masterstroke” nonsense.

There's two Springbok coaches before Rassie who are coloured and who both have an extremely storied history in coloured club rugby, both are still massively respected in coloured rugby circles, one of them publicly stated he was an ANC member (but has since given up on the party). I guess they were evil racists too?

What Oom posted is just the facts. Absolutely no one other than Rassie would've picked Kolbe for the Boks or made Kolisi captain. The Bok coach immediately before Rassie was coloured and coached both those players at the Stomps, he did not do that. These profoundly weren't obvious calls because no one made them before Rassie. Without Rassie Kolbe has 0 Bok caps, without Rassie Kolisi isn't a Bok captain. This is the most popular Bok team there has ever been by a long distance and everyone knows it's because of Rassie.

In other words you're completely ignorant.

The quota system is and was a failure. Not hard to find former Boks and Proteas who aren't white who have said that, if it was a positive it would be a great honour to be called a quota player, it is not. As far as rugby goes it didn't develop any players. The sport has always been popular with coloured people and in the Eastern Cape black people too, there's very old rugby clubs in those communities. Problem is in SA the system that feeds the pro sides mostly works through schools and not the clubs black/coloured rugby is built around. The lead time on schools being desegregated (which started in 1991) and a large amount of black/coloured boys attending those schools who were then good enough to get pro rugby contracts, was 15-20 years. In other words about how long it takes someone to complete school. Kolisi attended one of those schools on a scholarship.

Rugby was desegregated early, amybe even first (other areas that are sometimes mentioned like the police and military were never really fully segregated). Provincial and Bok rugby hasn't been whites only since the late 1970s, most coloured/black players preferred to play in their own separate structures to protest apartheid (including the two already mentioned Bok coaches), but not all. Oom is now in his fifth/sixth decade of watching South African rugby which means watching black/coloured players for most of that, fucking doubtful he needs to be forced to understand anything at all. He can probably list black/coloured provincial players he watched in the 1980s ffs.

[assfly]

I realise this is an incendiary topic, but if there was masterstroke surely it was Mandela's and his approach to the Springboks?

This is definitely a seminal moment in Springbok history, but was a precursor to the quota issue.

[assfly]

You guys had change forced upon you because you couldn’t see past the end of your noses that there are superior athletes all around you for reasons best left unsaid. Why cant you just say that forced change helped you get to where you are now instead of spinning some “Rassie masterstroke” nonsense.

Some of "us guys" know what we're talking about. Ox and Oom are 100% correct, read their posts again.

The whole quota thing was superficial nonsense. It was posturing by an ANC government who saw an easy target, and it did more harm than good by getting everybody questioning every single selection as to whether it was based on their skin colour or skill level.

"Us guys" always knew the only way to change the colour complexion of our team was through the grassroots. Investing in school and clubs to increase player involvement, and improving standards of coaching. But this is a long-term approach, and more difficult to achieve than grandstanding about immediate action at the very top of the game.

Winning world cups helps with the popularity of a sport. When we won in 2007, our current crop of professional players would have been kids, watching Habana and JP Pieterson carve up the world.

You can't underestimate what Rassie did to the sport when he made Kolisi captain. Far more than any quota bullshit. I'll even admit I had huge doubts about it, as I never rated him as a player. But the scary thing is that it will be in the coming years that a new generation of players who have been inspired by him will be playing professional rugby in South Africa.

[OomStruisbaai]

It’s not about the players, it’s the coaches. Look at SA soccer - millions of players and dollars and they’re still shithouse.

That’s all to do with the fact that (asi understand it) football was a street game for black kids whereas rugby was properly taught at white schools and there was already a system of professional clubs in place (hence lots of coaches) a huge international brand doesn’t hurt either.

What about the coloured kids? Our Paarl Bergies play touchies along the street with a empty vinegar bottle.

[Sards]

And they just can't help themselves to talk about us .

That's what happens when you are at the pinnacle. Shit keeps on getting thrown hoping something will stick.
I am very happy with the progress the ABs , Irish and French are making in rugby. We need these teams to be stronger so that we at least have a challenge and that there is hope for these Tier 1 minnows supporters so that they attend and stream the matches

[Sards]

What about the coloured kids? Our Paarl Bergies play touchies along the street with a empty vinegar bottle.

The POCs for the Stormers are mainly colored folk

[Calculon]

Is this supposed to be bait?

a troll thread that backfired and exposed the ignorance and prejudices of some posters. Good responses by Ox and assfly

[epwc]

Is this supposed to be bait?

a troll thread that backfired and exposed the ignorance and prejudices of some posters. Good responses by Ox and assfly

From my point of view this is not a troll thread, I’m genuinely interested assfly and _Os_ have made posts that really do further my understanding, unlike your response.

Thanks for taking the time Calculon

[OomStruisbaai]

Is this supposed to be bait?

a troll thread that backfired and exposed the ignorance and prejudices of some posters. Good responses by Ox and assfly

From my point of view this is not a troll thread, I’m genuinely interested assfly and _Os_ have made posts that really do further my understanding, unlike your response.

I have 1st hand experience of the wrongs of qoutas in sport. If you have kids playing provincial sport you get the reality of it. No kids winning from this, everyone is losing.

[Sards]

a troll thread that backfired and exposed the ignorance and prejudices of some posters. Good responses by Ox and assfly

From my point of view this is not a troll thread, I’m genuinely interested assfly and _Os_ have made posts that really do further my understanding, unlike your response.

I have 1st hand experience of the wrongs of qoutas in sport. If you have kids playing provincial sport you get the reality of it. No kids winning from this, everyone is losing.

Damn right. Our cricket is such a mess because of quotas. Can't win a thing

[weegie01]

It’s not about the players, it’s the coaches. Look at SA soccer - millions of players and dollars and they’re still shithouse.

That’s all to do with the fact that (asi understand it) football was a street game for black kids whereas rugby was properly taught at white schools and there was already a system of professional clubs in place (hence lots of coaches) a huge international brand doesn’t hurt either.

Not sure what you are gettng at here, but whilst football was always much more popular amongst the black community, it was also fully professional from a long way back (and long before rugby) with huge stadia and that attracted much larger crowds than rugby did. I have no interest in football so have no idea of the current situation, but when I lived in SA nearly 40 years ago the likes of the Kaizer Chiefs, Orlando Pirates etc drew enormous crowds and their players were very well paid.

All the systems through which players could come up through the ranks in football were there, football had an enormous bedrock to build on, and just appears not have done so.

[Calculon]

From my point of view this is not a troll thread, I’m genuinely interested assfly and _Os_ have made posts that really do further my understanding, unlike your response.

Thanks for taking the time Calculon

I'd forgotten all that... the bitching about quota players used to be a regular thing and now, those posters are quiet, reduced to relentless trolling of other nations' game threads for attention.

It's sad to see such a fall from relevance for the hard men. The tough guys. All brandy and coke, car park cooking and guttural bluster. Now they skulk about the suburbs of Perth and Auckland trying to organise right wing takeover of political movements while moaning about the cost of cheap labour.

Thems the ones

sure, sure, you've never done some mild trolling. anyway, good that you've learnt a few things

[epwc]

Not sure what you are gettng at here, but whilst football was always much more popular amongst the black community, it was also fully professional from a long way back (and long before rugby) with huge stadia and that attracted much larger crowds than rugby did. I have no interest in football so have no idea of the current situation, but when I lived in SA nearly 40 years ago the likes of the Kaizer Chiefs, Orlando Pirates etc drew enormous crowds and their players were very well paid.

All the systems through which players could come up through the ranks in football were there, football had an enormous bedrock to build on, and just appears not have done so.

Thanks, had no idea. Never heard of SA having any kind of rep as a footballing nation, but then I hate football so wouldn't know too much

[epwc]

I'd forgotten all that... the bitching about quota players used to be a regular thing and now, those posters are quiet, reduced to relentless trolling of other nations' game threads for attention.

It's sad to see such a fall from relevance for the hard men. The tough guys. All brandy and coke, car park cooking and guttural bluster. Now they skulk about the suburbs of Perth and Auckland trying to organise right wing takeover of political movements while moaning about the cost of cheap labour.

Thems the ones

sure, sure, you've never done some mild trolling. anyway, good that you've learnt a few things

That's certainly how it felt from the outside at the time, I don't give a shit what you think but for anyone else my posts about real issues are never trolling. I absolutely give a fuck about the issues I raise and am genuinely interested in learning more. I also know that for example the two white South Africans who used to run the dental practice I used around this time were rampantly racist, I once overheard them talking to each other about some issue going on "back home". I also knew a white South African who lived in Jo'burg whose whole family had been involved in the anti apartheid movement since the 60s.

It's a complex place that I have no direct connection to but it's always struck me that there must have been things other than "Mandela" that got SA to where it is now, although I believe that there's still plenty of work to be done.

[Biffer]

Saffers getting in a huff and calling it a bait thread when they're playing high and mighty in the poaching players bait thread is so typically South African.

[assfly]

Saffers getting in a huff and calling it a bait thread when they're playing high and mighty in the poaching players bait thread is so typically South African.

Try not tarnish us all with the same brush please.

[Biffer]

Saffers getting in a huff and calling it a bait thread when they're playing high and mighty in the poaching players bait thread is so typically South African.

Try not tarnish us all with the same brush please.

Fair

[OomStruisbaai]

It's a complex place that I have no direct connection to but it's always struck me that there must have been things other than "Mandela" that got SA to where it is now, although I believe that there's still plenty of work to be done.

Sure is. Lot more positivity after our voting last year. As you said there's plenty of work to be done.

[JM2K6]

Saffers getting in a huff and calling it a bait thread when they're playing high and mighty in the poaching players bait thread is so typically South African.

Try not tarnish us all with the same brush please.

No

[Sards]

Saffers getting in a huff and calling it a bait thread when they're playing high and mighty in the poaching players bait thread is so typically South African.

Broad brush there.