What's going on in *insert location here*

[Paddington Bear]

You authored a thread "Angry white men". What was it's purpose other than anti white tribalism?

I'm not anti white, I'm married to a white, half my family are white and my kids are half white. I'm very pro multi culturalism, unlike the Angry (whatever colour) men. The reason I created that thread was to try and understand what specifically is the big issue that has in the past few years made our politics swing quite far right and in places end up in racist violence.

The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work because of racist white people is not really a good faith argument.

Anywhere where you have large numbers of people from different ethnic and religious backgrounds living in close proximity they are in competition economically and politically.

This is observable everywhere on earth, for example, this happens in India:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp837p125ywo.amp

and so you have conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in the UK such as were seen in Leicester a few years ago.

The idea that Britain is a multi-cultural country is a nonsense we seem desperate to perpetuate. We *on the whole* have communities living parallel lives.

In my anecdotal world you can find cricket matches that would be entirely recognisable to my great grandparents of 22 white English guys playing in the old spirit followed by back slaps and pints all round, whilst down the road a game takes place between 22 Pakistani descended guys playing for teams named after the parts of Pakistan their grandparents came from, the entire day taking place in Urdu. Demographics change but on the whole both pictures haven’t changed a lot in a century

[epwc]

so you have conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in the UK such as were seen in Leicester a few years ago.

I’ve lived or worked in London all my life in that period there have been wars between different types of brown people but really only as an extension of gang culture.

By the sounds of it you know more on the topic than me.

I also don’t recall asserting that multiculturalism had failed due to racist white people.

Just got back from a Christmas do on the construction side of the business a couple of lads from Clacton there, they could probably explain to you how real the concerns of the angry white mean in their town are. According to them it’s mainly out of work tossers who sit on their arse all day mouthing off about migrants. Their words not mine.

[epwc]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

[Paddington Bear]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

I actually think we move in similar circles. My school was probably 25-30% South Asian and have friends across racial lines accordingly. I love India, a country I have travelled and worked in reasonably extensively and have a bed to crash at in pretty much any city there because of that and my cricket connections.

At Asian weddings after a certain time my connections etc get me coopted as an honorary Bengali for the inevitable dance-off. Doesn’t change the facts of what I’ve said. Look at a London pub, a city that is 38% white English and tell me I’m wrong.

My family traditionally are from Leyton. The odd time I pop there and into the Coach & Horses before a trip to Brisbane Road finds a clientelle indistinguishable to those my family would have found there 100+ years ago in a town otherwise totally unrecognisable. We on the whole have parallel societies living parallel lives. I don’t discount your, or my, experiences when saying this, and it gives me no pleasure to say so.

[epwc]

I really don’t understand

In the 1820s Whitechapel the pubs would I guess have been serving mostly Christians, quite a lot of Irish.

In the 1920s they’d have been serving mostly Jews

In the 1960s and 1970s it was mostly people of SE Asian origin

In the 2020s it’s back to predominantly white people but with plenty of minorities thrown in.

So which one was the best, what should we aspire to? I wish I understood your concerns I really do.

I 100% agree with you that Reform will do well at the next elections but based on what?

What will they deliver that the Tories couldn’t?

Unless the UK can change structurally to obviate the need for migrant labour then it’s just what’s going to happen (for better or worse) isn’t it?

[Hugo]

so you have conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in the UK such as were seen in Leicester a few years ago.

I’ve lived or worked in London all my life in that period there have been wars between different types of brown people but really only as an extension of gang culture.

Like I said earlier in the thread, mobs. Its not something people should be forced to accept though just because self segregating communities cannot co-exist.

I lived in Leicester in the late 90s and there was always a simmering tension between Hindus and Muslims. I grew up in a homogenously white village in the south of England and it was my first insight into this type of tribalism on English soil.

[epwc]

Gang culture has always existed in urban locations, if you’re that way inclined you’ll find a point of difference to justify othering another group

[Hugo]

And if by the third generation those grandchildren of immigrants are still in enclaves, tribes clustered in self segregating communities and not assimilated into the broader populace you have essentially countries within countries. Or as PB said parallel societies.

Which to my original point degrades a countries ability to plan, organise and effect change according to nationalist goals.

[Slick]

Multiculturalism pits everyone against everyone?

You authored a thread "Angry white men". What was it's purpose other than anti white tribalism?

Think we've found ymx's multi.

That’s a shit comment to a valid discussion. Think more

[epwc]

I thought we already had countries within countries?

There’s plenty of predominantly white places that suffer in this way, social justice is the thing that we need more of, people need to be offered opportunities to grow out of places like that. You can see plenty of the kids at the youth centre at Dagenham we support that are trapped in one way or another in circumstances that mean it’s almost impossible for them to move beyond

As I’ve said previously all of these issues are multi layered and really complex to unravel. Focussing on one element will fix nothing

[Slick]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

Apart from the fact you always seem to have these meetings and conversations the day before you need to validate your points, I’m not sure how this work do,when presumably you are buying the beers, invalidates anything that has been said by Hugo or Paddington.

There are small instances where someone could argue how well multiculturalism works, but how anyone can look at the country as a whole and say “yeah, this works” is beyond me, and very disingenuous

[Biffer]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

Apart from the fact you always seem to have these meetings and conversations the day before you need to validate your points, I’m not sure how this work do,when presumably you are buying the beers, invalidates anything that has been said by Hugo or Paddington.

There are small instances where someone could argue how well multiculturalism works, but how anyone can look at the country as a whole and say “yeah, this works” is beyond me, and very disingenuous

Most of our popular foods come from different cultures. Most of our popular music has it's roots in different cultures. Most of our fashion has its roots in different cultures.

[Slick]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

Apart from the fact you always seem to have these meetings and conversations the day before you need to validate your points, I’m not sure how this work do,when presumably you are buying the beers, invalidates anything that has been said by Hugo or Paddington.

There are small instances where someone could argue how well multiculturalism works, but how anyone can look at the country as a whole and say “yeah, this works” is beyond me, and very disingenuous

Most of our popular foods come from different cultures. Most of our popular music has it's roots in different cultures. Most of our fashion has its roots in different cultures.

Not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stick up a big wall or ignore other cultures

[epwc]

Slick are you saying I’m a liar?

That’s was part one, next Friday will be the Romanian brickie crew and some of the white lads that work for the main contractor.

I have a lot of interactions with a lot of people, quite often in a multi cultural setting I dont know what you want me to say about that

Last weekend my wife was running wreath making classes for charity. We had around 30 per session, 4 sessions. Plenty of talking to people, especially my daughter’s friends as I’m always interested to understand how they’re perceiving stuff.

For Hugo all the immigrants are just confining themselves to their little ghettoised niches and for you I must be talking bollocks because I couldn’t have these interactions?

Believe what you want, as I keep saying facts really don’t matter any more

[Niegs]

I maintain that the lies and deception in the run up to the second Iraq war were a key contributor to the lack of trust in authority that has fed into the rise of groups like qanon and conspiracy theories.

In the US, a lot of people draw the line at Watergate, or the Pentagon papers, because there in black & white they could see the lies that the "Elite" know for decades, but still sent kids go off to die, in an exercise they knew was doomed to fail. It completely destroyed any trust that a Generation had in their Government.

Others would lay the blame at the foot of the Reagan era which is when the ordinary Joes really started to struggle.

Yeah, I remember a lot of this in the 80s (not old enough for 70s)… News of the World type papers, shows ‘just asking questions’ like Unsolved Mysteries, then along comes The X-Files in the 90s. Media maybe not doing as much hard hitting journalism or our attention spans not making the long form, balanced stuff worth the effort into the era where they’re more desperate for our eyes and clicks?

[epwc]

Not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stick up a big wall or ignore other cultures

What are we suggesting then? The idea seems to be that there’s too many of “them” and they’re negatively affecting “our” culture. I’m not sure where I fit in your view of things

[Slick]

Slick are you saying I’m a liar?

That’s was part one, next Friday will be the Romanian brickie crew and some of the white lads that work for the main contractor.

I have a lot of interactions with a lot of people, quite often in a multi cultural setting I dont know what you want me to say about that

Last weekend my wife was running wreath making classes for charity. We had around 30 per session, 4 sessions. Plenty of talking to people, especially my daughter’s friends as I’m always interested to understand how they’re perceiving stuff.

For Hugo all the immigrants are just confining themselves to their little ghettoised niches and for you I must be talking bollocks because I couldn’t have these interactions?

Believe what you want, as I keep saying facts really don’t matter any more

You do have a habit of looking down from your ivory tower and insinuating that since you have these experiences everyone else must be mistaken. I also have friends from lots of different cultures and have lived in different areas of the U.K. and world. The majority of my experiences have been excellent but my eyes are open wide enough to see that this isn’t the case everywhere and for everyone, and that my fairly privileged background gives me a very different view.

Having a pint with a few employees doesn’t extrapolate across the country I’m afraid

[Paddington Bear]

PB you and I live completely different lives. I’ve just got back from a Christmas do attended by an Indian born Sikh, 2 uk born Sikhs a uk born gujrati Hindu, 3 uk born Muslims of Pakistani origin (2 of whom have white wives) a mixed race lad (Caribbean dad) and two white blokes from clacton.

We had a brilliant night, but yeah multiculturalism doesn’t exist

Apart from the fact you always seem to have these meetings and conversations the day before you need to validate your points, I’m not sure how this work do,when presumably you are buying the beers, invalidates anything that has been said by Hugo or Paddington.

There are small instances where someone could argue how well multiculturalism works, but how anyone can look at the country as a whole and say “yeah, this works” is beyond me, and very disingenuous

Most of our popular foods come from different cultures. Most of our popular music has it's roots in different cultures. Most of our fashion has its roots in different cultures.

If we’re talking about how the world is changing, this is a 90s argument and doesn’t really cut it anymore.

Internet/whatsapp/google translate etc mean it is easier than ever not to integrate, before you consider that white Brits are a statistical irrelevance in the parts of London new migrants tend to gravitate to.

[Slick]

Not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stick up a big wall or ignore other cultures

What are we suggesting then? The idea seems to be that there’s too many of “them” and they’re negatively affecting “our” culture. I’m not sure where I fit in your view of things

You’re doing that thing again where you don’t actually give an opinion or view on things, you just tell us all about your wonderful life and insinuate that anyone who might offer an opinion is just a racist.

What’s your opinion on schools in East London that are 100% Bangladeshi, or huge areas of West London which are pretty much 100% Indian? Or enclaves in the north that are 100% Pakistani. Are these successes of multiculturalism?

I’ll give you my view. I don’t really care too much. I think it’s a bit sad and a reflection of our collective missed chances to be better. I love spending time in those areas of west London and have many friends there. It’s a pattern repeated across the globe because at the heart of it is the fact that people prefer to live with their own culture. It’s a nonsense to pretend this is successful multiculturalism

[epwc]

Fuck me. I am actually quite closely involved with a mosque in a working class area, because of that I have a LOT of interactions with working class brown people. Of the people that were on our night out last night at least half are friends now. I interact widely with both parts of my family, white and brown across a range of socio economic backgrounds and educational attainment.

I can relate across the board because I have been poor, I have been working class, I have suffered racism, I am also now clearly not working class or poor.

We can’t help who we are, both my wife and I are outgoing people that talk to literally anyone, in my case generally about the sort of shit I talk about on here. With pretty much every charity we support our engagement is beyond just the monetary. I have a lot of interactions

I still haven’t got a clue what you would like to see to address the problems you perceive.

[epwc]

Not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. I don’t think anyone is suggesting we stick up a big wall or ignore other cultures

What are we suggesting then? The idea seems to be that there’s too many of “them” and they’re negatively affecting “our” culture. I’m not sure where I fit in your view of things

You’re doing that thing again where you don’t actually give an opinion or view on things, you just tell us all about your wonderful life and insinuate that anyone who might offer an opinion is just a racist.

What’s your opinion on schools in East London that are 100% Bangladeshi, or huge areas of West London which are pretty much 100% Indian? Or enclaves in the north that are 100% Pakistani. Are these successes of multiculturalism?

I’ll give you my view. I don’t really care too much. I think it’s a bit sad and a reflection of our collective missed chances to be better. I love spending time in those areas of west London and have many friends there. It’s a pattern repeated across the globe because at the heart of it is the fact that people prefer to live with their own culture. It’s a nonsense to pretend this is successful multiculturalism

What thing? It’s my lived experience. In the past there were schools in the east end that were 100% Jewish, things change. There are plenty of places where multiculturalism isn’t working but as a whole I would argue that it does.

Do none of my post since last contain an opinion?

[epwc]

On Bangladeshis in particular are you aware how many have moved out to the boroughs of Newham, Dagenham Redbridge and Havering now?

I couldn’t give you figures but I know it’s been pretty dramatic

[Paddington Bear]

On Bangladeshis in particular are you aware how many have moved out to the boroughs of Newham, Dagenham Redbridge and Havering now?

I couldn’t give you figures but I know it’s been pretty dramatic

This is in part because there are so many more Bangladeshis here than there was a decade or so ago, and so they can therefore form viable Bangladeshi enclaves further from Whitechapel. It’s kind of the point that keeps being made

[epwc]

PB what is the point that is being made?

And is there a solution that would satisfy you or Hugo or Slick?

[Paddington Bear]

PB what is the point that is being made?

And is there a solution that would satisfy you or Hugo or Slick?

Solution wise I think we need a much more aggressive and assertive migration policy. Public services only provided in English, social housing to be mandated as ethnically mixed. Zero tolerance for radical religion (to give a specific example the parents who have caused the teacher in Batley to go into hiding should all be in prison) and for diaspora politics. Far far lower migration in general, and the ending of the particularly Pakistani practice of bringing over a spouse from the old country. These would be my starting points

[Slick]

On Bangladeshis in particular are you aware how many have moved out to the boroughs of Newham, Dagenham Redbridge and Havering now?

I couldn’t give you figures but I know it’s been pretty dramatic

Again, a non answer

[epwc]

Ok so assertive I see no problem with but aggressive?

I agree that in particular signage should be in English, the little English my mum could read was because she HAD to read stuff in English

Social housing being mixed? Not sure how that works although I agree in principle. Firstly there is insufficient social housing just about everywhere, secondly the reason for example Jews or Asians ended up in the east end was because it was a shithole, thereby cheap. You can’t force white people to remain put in places like Tower Hamlets, they made their choices and moved further out whether it was to Basildon, Harlow or elsewhere. For such a policy to work you’d have to make it impossible for those people to move out

I don’t know how you define radical religion, in the past the quakers were defined as radical. I do agree that people preaching hate (genuine hate, not whatever the fuck Suella was on about) shouldn’t be allowed to do so

Far lower migration how? We need migrants because of many factors including low fertility and an ageing population. How will the numbers of workers required in just healthcare as an example be provided?

Spouses are specifically a Pakistani problem? Wow. One of our neighbours has a Spanish wife, another has an Australian daughter in law. But yeah if you want to change the rules and they apply equally then I guess that’s fair enough.

So that’s what you want, what in policy terms would need to change to make that happen?

[epwc]

On Bangladeshis in particular are you aware how many have moved out to the boroughs of Newham, Dagenham Redbridge and Havering now?

I couldn’t give you figures but I know it’s been pretty dramatic

Again, a non answer

I will dig out the data from the census if it’s available. But being on the ground in all those boroughs I can guarantee that there many more people if Bangladeshi origin in outer boroughs than in the 2011 census

[Slick]

On Bangladeshis in particular are you aware how many have moved out to the boroughs of Newham, Dagenham Redbridge and Havering now?

I couldn’t give you figures but I know it’s been pretty dramatic

Again, a non answer

I will dig out the data from the census if it’s available. But being on the ground in all those boroughs I can guarantee that there many more people if Bangladeshi origin in outer boroughs than in the 2011 census

Actually, apologies, I retract that one - I missed that you had given an answer of sorts to the question previously

[robmatic]

Spouses are specifically a Pakistani problem? Wow. One of our neighbours has a Spanish wife, another has an Australian daughter in law. But yeah if you want to change the rules and they apply equally then I guess that’s fair enough.

Bringing a cousin over from the village back home via the spouse route has been a largely Pakistani issue in practice. But it is much more difficult now for everybody, which is one of the reasons I find myself having to live overseas as a British citizen.

[epwc]

Spouses are specifically a Pakistani problem? Wow. One of our neighbours has a Spanish wife, another has an Australian daughter in law. But yeah if you want to change the rules and they apply equally then I guess that’s fair enough.

Bringing a cousin over from the village back home via the spouse route has been a largely Pakistani issue in practice. But it is much more difficult now for everybody, which is one of the reasons I find myself having to live overseas as a British citizen.

It’s an issue amongst Bangladeshis some Indians and Sri Lankans and yes Pakistanis. I don’t agree with it but it exists across several nationalities

For you in particular what would you like to see happen to that aspect of our migration policy?

[Paddington Bear]

Spouses are specifically a Pakistani problem? Wow. One of our neighbours has a Spanish wife, another has an Australian daughter in law. But yeah if you want to change the rules and they apply equally then I guess that’s fair enough.

Bringing a cousin over from the village back home via the spouse route has been a largely Pakistani issue in practice. But it is much more difficult now for everybody, which is one of the reasons I find myself having to live overseas as a British citizen.

It’s an issue amongst Bangladeshis some Indians and Sri Lankans and yes Pakistanis. I don’t agree with it but it exists across several nationalities

So why, given we all knew of the existence of this, was your response to me raising it ‘wow’?!?

[epwc]

Because you singled out Pakistani

[epwc]

Apologies to Biffer derailed the thread completely

[Uncle fester]

You authored a thread "Angry white men". What was it's purpose other than anti white tribalism?

Think we've found ymx's multi.

That’s a shit comment to a valid discussion. Think more

If you read that thread and that was your take from it, that's all that strawman deserves.

[petej]

You authored a thread "Angry white men". What was it's purpose other than anti white tribalism?

I'm not anti white, I'm married to a white, half my family are white and my kids are half white. I'm very pro multi culturalism, unlike the Angry (whatever colour) men. The reason I created that thread was to try and understand what specifically is the big issue that has in the past few years made our politics swing quite far right and in places end up in racist violence.

The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work because of racist white people is not really a good faith argument.

Anywhere where you have large numbers of people from different ethnic and religious backgrounds living in close proximity they are in competition economically and politically.

This is observable everywhere on earth, for example, this happens in India:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp837p125ywo.amp

and so you have conflicts between Hindus and Muslims in the UK such as were seen in Leicester a few years ago.

Think the previous set of issues in Leicester was caused by the rape of a Sikh girl by a group of Muslim men and them taking it into their own hands.

I grew up in Leicester and can well remember how a mixed raced Muslim was treated by predominantly pakistani muslims in school - I think dirty blood and mums a white whore was at the mild end. He and his siblings were totally rejected by that group.

[lemonhead]

Ok so assertive I see no problem with but aggressive?

I agree that in particular signage should be in English, the little English my mum could read was because she HAD to read stuff in English

Social housing being mixed? Not sure how that works although I agree in principle. Firstly there is insufficient social housing just about everywhere, secondly the reason for example Jews or Asians ended up in the east end was because it was a shithole, thereby cheap. You can’t force white people to remain put in places like Tower Hamlets, they made their choices and moved further out whether it was to Basildon, Harlow or elsewhere. For such a policy to work you’d have to make it impossible for those people to move out

I don’t know how you define radical religion, in the past the quakers were defined as radical. I do agree that people preaching hate (genuine hate, not whatever the fuck Suella was on about) shouldn’t be allowed to do so

Far lower migration how? We need migrants because of many factors including low fertility and an ageing population. How will the numbers of workers required in just healthcare as an example be provided?

Spouses are specifically a Pakistani problem? Wow. One of our neighbours has a Spanish wife, another has an Australian daughter in law. But yeah if you want to change the rules and they apply equally then I guess that’s fair enough.

So that’s what you want, what in policy terms would need to change to make that happen?

Far less response to this post - i.e. none - than it deserves. We could talk about the political decisions made in the past and the snake oil they were sold on, I fear that's a dead end.

But while no serious party seeking (or able to win) power wants to even discuss immigration as anything other than a perennially leaky tap we are not going to get anywhere in this country.

It happens, it needs to happen and once that's an accepted starting point then you try to pick apart the areas it needs to improve: what to specialise in, reduce, look at integration, service requirements, numbers etc. Vacuum of any reasoned debate keeps giving you your Reforms, your Farages and enables all the divisive cvnts who cheered on this mess in the first place.

[epwc]

Thanks lemonhead, I agree with you.

[epwc]

Untitled.jpg (67.35 KiB) Viewed 1184 times

Well, this is going to make some of you feel very uneasy. This compares 2011 to 2021 census. Trends? Muslims are taking over! I didn't expect an increase or at least such a big increase in Tower Hamlets, but as you can see the muslim population in the outer boroughs is increasing at a faster rate. I couldn't see how to extract data for Bangladeshi, it looked like all I could get was British Asian.

I know that there are a lot of Afghans now in London, plenty of Kurds working in all the Turkish restaurants and barbershops plus more africans. But I can't give you any evidence on that.

If anyone knows how to get the data regarding Bangladeshis specifically I'm happy to do the analysis

[epwc]

Well that killed the thread