2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Tichtheid]

Is Cam Redpath injured again?

As far as I'm aware, yep, unfortunately. Not sure what issue is though,

Cheers. He's been so unlucky over the years

[sockwithaticket]

Du Toit might be one of the best signings in Prem history.

Not much harder in the game than stopping him a few yards out.

Cokanasiga again, sigh. Really frustrates me watching him. Not least because one of the Welsh PR trolls had his weaknesses pegged a few years back and that burns, y'know?

And there's his double. Insane scoring rate for a prop. He's great at his nuts and bolts and a breakdown monster too.

Cokanasiga... his attributes are sufficient to justify coaches continuing to use him, but he looks like he'll never kick on and become top class.

[Torquemada 1420]

If it's in Europe we won't be watching as we've finally reached the limit on paying to watch rugby, particularly a tournament where neither of our teams have any chance, and where the outcome is inevitably "moneybags french club Vs team with most of the Irish national side/the other french moneybags club".

On a personal level I'm not sure. I'd like both teams to explore their depth and use it to test younger players given this tournament is a bust. Equally they're both in need of finding form, so full strength sides before the enforced lay off during the 6N would also make sense.

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

[inactionman]

Is Cam Redpath injured again?

As far as I'm aware, yep, unfortunately. Not sure what issue is though,

Cheers. He's been so unlucky over the years

Think he came off against Sarries but I didn't catch what the problem was.

[Kawazaki]

If it's in Europe we won't be watching as we've finally reached the limit on paying to watch rugby, particularly a tournament where neither of our teams have any chance, and where the outcome is inevitably "moneybags french club Vs team with most of the Irish national side/the other french moneybags club".

On a personal level I'm not sure. I'd like both teams to explore their depth and use it to test younger players given this tournament is a bust. Equally they're both in need of finding form, so full strength sides before the enforced lay off during the 6N would also make sense.

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

The Premiership club owners have spent over £500m paying for English rugby since 1996. Their 'greed' has so far netted them a grand total of £fuckall.

[JM2K6]

Ted Hill

[inactionman]

My stream has died a seemingly non-resurrectable death.

Bah. It was quite good fun.

[sockwithaticket]

My stream has died a seemingly non-resurrectable death.

Bah. It was quite good fun.

Spoiler - you won.

[Biffer]

If it's in Europe we won't be watching as we've finally reached the limit on paying to watch rugby, particularly a tournament where neither of our teams have any chance, and where the outcome is inevitably "moneybags french club Vs team with most of the Irish national side/the other french moneybags club".

On a personal level I'm not sure. I'd like both teams to explore their depth and use it to test younger players given this tournament is a bust. Equally they're both in need of finding form, so full strength sides before the enforced lay off during the 6N would also make sense.

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

The Premiership club owners have spent over £500m paying for English rugby since 1996. Their 'greed' has so far netted them a grand total of £fuckall.

The current five year Top14 deal is worth more than that.

[Kawazaki]

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

The Premiership club owners have spent over £500m paying for English rugby since 1996. Their 'greed' has so far netted them a grand total of £fuckall.

The current five year Top14 deal is worth more than that.

And?

[Paddington Bear]

If it's in Europe we won't be watching as we've finally reached the limit on paying to watch rugby, particularly a tournament where neither of our teams have any chance, and where the outcome is inevitably "moneybags french club Vs team with most of the Irish national side/the other french moneybags club".

On a personal level I'm not sure. I'd like both teams to explore their depth and use it to test younger players given this tournament is a bust. Equally they're both in need of finding form, so full strength sides before the enforced lay off during the 6N would also make sense.

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

[Biffer]

The Premiership club owners have spent over £500m paying for English rugby since 1996. Their 'greed' has so far netted them a grand total of £fuckall.

The current five year Top14 deal is worth more than that.

And?

It’s a further demonstration of Torqs point.

Premiership has spent £500 million in 28 years

Top14 has more than that for the current five years.

The disparity in finance between England and France is massive.

[inactionman]

If it's in Europe we won't be watching as we've finally reached the limit on paying to watch rugby, particularly a tournament where neither of our teams have any chance, and where the outcome is inevitably "moneybags french club Vs team with most of the Irish national side/the other french moneybags club".

On a personal level I'm not sure. I'd like both teams to explore their depth and use it to test younger players given this tournament is a bust. Equally they're both in need of finding form, so full strength sides before the enforced lay off during the 6N would also make sense.

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

I had a season ticket for 15+ years at the Rec and loved all of it, through thick and thin (and there's been a fair bit of thin) - the attendances might not be huge but it sustains a very engaged support.

It's in trying to expand in unrealistic ways that we've run into problems.

[Paddington Bear]

Look, the disparity in money is an inevitability of economics. Rugby is a minor sport in England compared with France. I commented earlier of Vannes (Brittany hardly the heartland of French rugby) having bigger gates than the capital of Scotland....and thus, probably all English clubs.

French rugby is not (any longer) doing what the Prem did which led to the bankruptcies. In the history of professional sport, has there ever been such an example of mismanagement (relatively)? And it's still going on with the RFU. Rugby in England is a clusterf**k. It's run by greedy, self serving morons who police(d) greedy, self serving morons.

100% the bit in bold. The JIFF rules have turned French rugby around. And yes, Europe is a sh*t comp now. I haven't been to a game in a few years: I used to travel all over the place.

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

I had a season ticket for 15+ years at the Rec and loved all of it, through thick and thin (and there's been a fair bit of thin) - the attendances might not be huge but it sustains a very engaged support.

It's in trying to expand in unrealistic ways that we've run into problems.

There’s nothing wrong with being a niche interest, particularly when you have a pretty wealthy clientelle. If we’re going to spend more responsibly we’ll struggle in Europe but have a competitive Prem, which is fine

[inactionman]

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

I had a season ticket for 15+ years at the Rec and loved all of it, through thick and thin (and there's been a fair bit of thin) - the attendances might not be huge but it sustains a very engaged support.

It's in trying to expand in unrealistic ways that we've run into problems.

There’s nothing wrong with being a niche interest, particularly when you have a pretty wealthy clientelle. If we’re going to spend more responsibly we’ll struggle in Europe but have a competitive Prem, which is fine

That's pretty much all I care about. Maybe to put it slightly differently, I'll not accept killing the Premiership/English club game just to make a few teams competitive in Europe.

[Kawazaki]

The current five year Top14 deal is worth more than that.

And?

It’s a further demonstration of Torqs point.

Premiership has spent £500 million in 28 years

Top14 has more than that for the current five years.

The disparity in finance between England and France is massive.

Torq wasn't making any point. He's just crowing.

There's always an accusation not far from many people's lips that the Premiership club owners are somehow the cause of all of England's rugby woes. The truth is that without them - and their money - there simply wouldn't be a great deal going on at all in English domestic rugby. The RFU still manage to be skint despite recieving all this unrequited largesse from multimillionaires who just keep writing out the cheques.

[Slick]

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

I had a season ticket for 15+ years at the Rec and loved all of it, through thick and thin (and there's been a fair bit of thin) - the attendances might not be huge but it sustains a very engaged support.

It's in trying to expand in unrealistic ways that we've run into problems.

There’s nothing wrong with being a niche interest, particularly when you have a pretty wealthy clientelle. If we’re going to spend more responsibly we’ll struggle in Europe but have a competitive Prem, which is fine

I love it being a niche interest, it’s what gives us the ability to walk into any clubhouse on earth and be welcomed and I still get a thrill from meeting someone new who loves the game as much as me.

I won’t go over old ground, but fuck this global expansion shite. A competitive domestic game and the 6N is all I wish for. OK, the odd SH tour is fun as well

[SaintK]

And?

It’s a further demonstration of Torqs point.

Premiership has spent £500 million in 28 years

Top14 has more than that for the current five years.

The disparity in finance between England and France is massive.

Torq wasn't making any point. He's just crowing.

There's always an accusation not far from many people's lips that the Premiership club owners are somehow the cause of all of England's rugby woes. The truth is that without them - and their money - there simply wouldn't be a great deal going on at all in English domestic rugby. The RFU still manage to be skint despite recieving all this unrequited largesse from multimillionaires who just keep writing out the cheques.

The RFU have allocated the Professional Game Board over £250m for the next 5 year cycle. This excludes any meaningful support for the 2nd tier.

[Torquemada 1420]

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

It's a bit more complex than that. Rugby in France is/was rooted in the working classes. Primarily the rural ones in the South West to start with.
That meant a much larger fan base (and possibly playing base) with deeply tribal allegiances that live on until today. French rugby's roots are more like Welsh rugby than anything in England. I've said this repeatedly, and I know it annoys many of you guys (because you are part of the data) but rugby in England is basically a posh boys' preserve. So much so that football fans in general aren't simply apathetic to rugby, they actively dislike it (at least as much as you scorn them). Consequently your audience and playing pool is limited and always will be unless you can find a way to bridge the divide.

The other advantage France has is a healthy Pro2 (and downwards) rather than a closed system (and I get all the arguments for why it's different in England) and that means all clubs are held to account for the rules now. You try to cheat or game the system and someone will point the finger. No chance of a cartel of bigger clubs turning a blind eye to one another's unsustainable financial excesses.

[Biffer]

It’s a minor miracle that there is any viable club level pro game in England, it really is a minority sport that has a few big days out a year where it makes the news. French club football is also shit which helps club rugby, we’ve got teams six tiers down with crowds averaging in the 1000s.

If France has a sustainable successful club set up then English clubs will be permanently weaker and any success we have in Europe will be the exception not the rule.

To some extent we should reflect on what has been achieved - 30 years ago Sarries played in a council owned park with a small concrete stand and a cricket square on either side (30 years later etc etc). Crowds across England are up about 50% in 15/20 years. We did of course have an English winner in the distant days of 2020.

Just got back from Limerick where bar the result we had a cracker of a weekend, not the best game but two sides going at it full bore in front of 20,000 people. Hard to argue with as a way to spend your time and money, even if the comp isn’t what it was

It's a bit more complex than that. Rugby in France is/was rooted in the working classes. Primarily the rural ones in the South West to start with.
That meant a much larger fan base (and possibly playing base) with deeply tribal allegiances that live on until today. French rugby's roots are more like Welsh rugby than anything in England. I've said this repeatedly, and I know it annoys many of you guys (because you are part of the data) but rugby in England is basically a posh boys' preserve. So much so that football fans in general aren't simply apathetic to rugby, they actively dislike it (at least as much as you scorn them). Consequently your audience and playing pool is limited and always will be unless you can find a way to bridge the divide.

The other advantage France has is a healthy Pro2 (and downwards) rather than a closed system (and I get all the arguments for why it's different in England) and that means all clubs are held to account for the rules now. You try to cheat or game the system and someone will point the finger. No chance of a cartel of bigger clubs turning a blind eye to one another's unsustainable financial excesses.

I think England at least in part has had a similar thing happen as happened in Scotland. Up here, there used to be both posh boys rugby and working class rugby, the latter being concentrated in particular areas (mostly the Borders, but also in Fife and a few other spots). In the 70s/80s/90s a combination of school sports pitches being sold off and schools / clubs being stymied by massive liability insurance costs led to the failure of many working class rugby clubs, which means it's far more biased towards posh schools who can afford pitches, insurance and coaches now. I think something similar happened in England.

[PornDog]

I had a season ticket for 15+ years at the Rec and loved all of it, through thick and thin (and there's been a fair bit of thin) - the attendances might not be huge but it sustains a very engaged support.

It's in trying to expand in unrealistic ways that we've run into problems.

There’s nothing wrong with being a niche interest, particularly when you have a pretty wealthy clientelle. If we’re going to spend more responsibly we’ll struggle in Europe but have a competitive Prem, which is fine

I love it being a niche interest, it’s what gives us the ability to walk into any clubhouse on earth and be welcomed and I still get a thrill from meeting someone new who loves the game as much as me.

I won’t go over old ground, but fuck this global expansion shite. A competitive domestic game and the 6N is all I wish for. OK, the odd SH tour is fun as well

I'm 95% with you on this. I don't mind trying to grow the game, so long as you are doing that organically. But "growing the game" (ie revenues) has become the entire focus of rugby administrators and its fucking appalling. Rugby needs to live within it's means, which it can do no problems, rather than trying to expand its revenue base to meet the shortfalls in competent administration (Fucking Dubai )

[Biffer]

There’s nothing wrong with being a niche interest, particularly when you have a pretty wealthy clientelle. If we’re going to spend more responsibly we’ll struggle in Europe but have a competitive Prem, which is fine

I love it being a niche interest, it’s what gives us the ability to walk into any clubhouse on earth and be welcomed and I still get a thrill from meeting someone new who loves the game as much as me.

I won’t go over old ground, but fuck this global expansion shite. A competitive domestic game and the 6N is all I wish for. OK, the odd SH tour is fun as well

I'm 95% with you on this. I don't mind trying to grow the game, so long as you are doing that organically. But "growing the game" (ie revenues) has become the entire focus of rugby administrators and its fucking appalling. Rugby needs to live within it's means, which it can do no problems, rather than trying to expand its revenue base to meet the shortfalls in competent administration (Fucking Dubai )

And to me, you grow the game organically, as you say, by growing a fan base and supporting the development of increased standards. The gradual ascent of Argentina, Japan and Italy is the model to follow. And there's still development required within Argentina and Italy to grow full time professional domestic rugby competitions. And then the question is where is next - Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Uruguay all have potential, but it'll be a long process. There should IMO be an aim to develop a professional South American league, but it's not going to be cheap given the costs involved. If you could get half a dozen pro teams in South America, domestic league plus a transatlantic championship v South African teams in a top level Currie Cup, I think that'd be a great setup. Development of European second level rugby to get it closer to first level is critical too. Some combined leagues might help here - an Iberian league for example, and maybe a Netherlands/Belgium/Germany league. Swings and roundabouts with all these proposals of course but either you stick with amateur / semipro clubs feeding players into the big three European leagues or you look to establish 2 or 3 pro clubs in each country and work from there.

[Slick]

I love it being a niche interest, it’s what gives us the ability to walk into any clubhouse on earth and be welcomed and I still get a thrill from meeting someone new who loves the game as much as me.

I won’t go over old ground, but fuck this global expansion shite. A competitive domestic game and the 6N is all I wish for. OK, the odd SH tour is fun as well

I'm 95% with you on this. I don't mind trying to grow the game, so long as you are doing that organically. But "growing the game" (ie revenues) has become the entire focus of rugby administrators and its fucking appalling. Rugby needs to live within it's means, which it can do no problems, rather than trying to expand its revenue base to meet the shortfalls in competent administration (Fucking Dubai )

And to me, you grow the game organically, as you say, by growing a fan base and supporting the development of increased standards. The gradual ascent of Argentina, Japan and Italy is the model to follow. And there's still development required within Argentina and Italy to grow full time professional domestic rugby competitions. And then the question is where is next - Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Uruguay all have potential, but it'll be a long process. There should IMO be an aim to develop a professional South American league, but it's not going to be cheap given the costs involved. If you could get half a dozen pro teams in South America, domestic league plus a transatlantic championship v South African teams in a top level Currie Cup, I think that'd be a great setup. Development of European second level rugby to get it closer to first level is critical too. Some combined leagues might help here - an Iberian league for example, and maybe a Netherlands/Belgium/Germany league. Swings and roundabouts with all these proposals of course but either you stick with amateur / semipro clubs feeding players into the big three European leagues or you look to establish 2 or 3 pro clubs in each country and work from there.

Yeah, mine was a fairly hastily written post, but I agree with both of you, growing the game is a good thing if we are talking about developing smaller rugby playing countries to become competitive by attracting new players to the sport and I'd love all those countries Biffer mentioned to be getting support. The fixation on chasing new viewers on TV gives nothing to the game IMO.

[Sandstorm]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

[Biffer]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

Maybe you need to grow it in South Africa seeing as you're incapable of organising a decent level of pro competition without help from Europe.

[Sandstorm]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

Maybe you need to grow it in South Africa seeing as you're incapable of organising a decent level of pro competition without help from Europe.

You know that's bollocks. There's a MASSIVE school and club scene in SA that feeds professional Rugby teams world-wide. We are keeping the standards sky-high globally. You're welcome.

[PornDog]

[Biffer]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

Maybe you need to grow it in South Africa seeing as you're incapable of organising a decent level of pro competition without help from Europe.

You know that's bollocks. There's a MASSIVE school and club scene in SA that feeds professional Rugby teams world-wide. We are keeping the standards sky-high globally. You're welcome.

So why have you never been able to organise your own top level domestic pro league?

[Sandstorm]

So why have you never been able to organise your own top level domestic pro league?

What? We've had two for decades. Super Rugby (now URC) and Currie Cup. Both are so popular and monetised (even with a Rand in the toilet at 23 to 1 vs GBP) , that Antipodeans and Europeans beg SA Teams to join their leagues to bring fans and cash to the local markets.

[Paddington Bear]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

It’s certainly true in both England and Scotland that there’s a lot to be done to better engage people who already quite like rugby in the club game, but ultimately these are football mad countries where as Torq says a lot of football fans have an active antipathy towards the sport (sometimes unfairly but sometimes we deserve it - anyone remember that guide to watching rugby a Wasps fan wrote for Cov City fans?). Sunday Night Rugby Live on TNT is never going to be drawing millions of viewers.

[OomStruisbaai]

So why have you never been able to organise your own top level domestic pro league?

What? We've had two for decades. Super Rugby (now URC) and Currie Cup. Both are so popular and monetised (even with a Rand in the toilet at 23 to 1 vs GBP) , that Antipodeans and Europeans beg SA Teams to join their leagues to bring fans and cash to the local markets.

https://pressportal.co.za/advertising-a ... rends.html

Audience Engagement and Consumption Trends
“Fans are connecting with the Currie Cup like never before, demonstrating the enduring appeal of the tournament,” says Nwabisa Sauls, Senior Commercial Manager at Nielsen Sports SA. “Our insights show that South African sports fans are increasingly engaged with both live and secondary content, proving that efficient, well-timed broadcasts can drive exceptional results.”

Key audience insights from the Nielsen report include:

A 37% rise in average live audience numbers, showing a growing interest in real-time sports.
A 32% increase in secondary consumption, with fans actively seeking out repeats and highlight reels.
A 28% growth in total unique live audience, as secondary broadcasts attract new viewers and expand the tournament's reach.
Overall, total consumption rose by 30%, driven by a 24% increase in live broadcasts and an impressive 69% surge in secondary consumption.
The Currie Cup’s Continued Impact
As the tournament progressed toward the Final in September, audience consumption continued its upward trend. The Currie Cup remains a premier event on the South African sporting calendar, providing numerous opportunities for advertisers, brands, and rightsholders to engage with a highly committed audience.

“As one of South Africa’s oldest rugby tournaments, this year’s Currie Cup proves that tradition remains strong, driven by efficient programming and strategic secondary broadcasts,” Sauls notes. “Advertisers who recognise this positive trajectory in rugby are likely to see significant rewards.”

[SaintK]

So why have you never been able to organise your own top level domestic pro league?

What? We've had two for decades. Super Rugby (now URC) and Currie Cup. Both are so popular and monetised (even with a Rand in the toilet at 23 to 1 vs GBP) , that Antipodeans and Europeans beg SA Teams to join their leagues to bring fans and cash to the local markets.

Beg, really?

[Tichtheid]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

It’s certainly true in both England and Scotland that there’s a lot to be done to better engage people who already quite like rugby in the club game, but ultimately these are football mad countries where as Torq says a lot of football fans have an active antipathy towards the sport (sometimes unfairly but sometimes we deserve it - anyone remember that guide to watching rugby a Wasps fan wrote for Cov City fans?). Sunday Night Rugby Live on TNT is never going to be drawing millions of viewers.

I find this antipathy toward rugby very frustrating from a Scottish perspective - the football dwarfs everything else in terms of attendances, tv viewing and press coverage - Celtic and Rangers can compete with the top English teams in attendance, if not on the park. They get averages of nearly 60K for Celtic and upper 40s for Rangers - I suspect the averages of the other teams are bolstered by fans of these teams when they play away - they have fans across the country like no other teams.
This despite London alone having a much higher population than Scotland.

The reality is that Scotland are ranked 45th in the Fifa table, the World Rugby table has Scotland at sixth and I think we could do better than that.

Although many of our players have gone through the private school system, it's very often because they won rugby scholarships there from the state sector - these schools are still very strong in sports. The clubs have taken over much of school rugby here now.

Data is not easy to come by because often we are comparing apples with pears, but one of the most reliable sources I saw fairly recently has Scotland way below the other top 10/12 countries on player and club numbers.


Edit, coming back to Scotland was fairly sobering (not a sentence you'll see often) - my hometown club is being run by guys my age, there isn't anyone under the age of late 50s+ involved with keeping it going. The coaches are a bit younger and the players are all very young - the firsts (only team now) are all around 21-22, with our first batch of post-Covid players coming up from the school age next year we are hoping to get a seconds out.
We used to run first to thirds plus Colts (U19s) every week who all played in leagues, with an occasional social fourths.

[Sandstorm]

Beg, really?

A trolling choice of word, but it's not that far from the truth: in 2017 the Pro12 invited Cheetahs and Mightily Elephants to join for god sake! Two teams that can't fill a taxi with fans and the quality was terrible. yet money was talking, so it happened.

[Tichtheid]

Beg, really?

A trolling choice of word, but it's not that far from the truth: in 2017 the Pro12 invited Cheetahs and Mightily Elephants to join for god sake! Two teams that can't fill a taxi with fans and the quality was terrible. yet money was talking, so it happened.

Southern Kings, iirc

I can't remember why that happened, but I seem to recall it was a fishing expedition by SA.

Edit, yeah, a quick google shows that these two were being cut from Super Rugby and SARU were looking to align with the NH at that time

[Sandstorm]

Beg, really?

A trolling choice of word, but it's not that far from the truth: in 2017 the Pro12 invited Cheetahs and Mightily Elephants to join for god sake! Two teams that can't fill a taxi with fans and the quality was terrible. yet money was talking, so it happened.

Southern Kings, iirc

I can't remember why that happened, but I seem to recall it was a fishing expedition by SA.

[Uncle fester]

Maybe you need to grow the game in Scotland? Two Pros teams is lame, especially when half your players are imports.

It’s certainly true in both England and Scotland that there’s a lot to be done to better engage people who already quite like rugby in the club game, but ultimately these are football mad countries where as Torq says a lot of football fans have an active antipathy towards the sport (sometimes unfairly but sometimes we deserve it - anyone remember that guide to watching rugby a Wasps fan wrote for Cov City fans?). Sunday Night Rugby Live on TNT is never going to be drawing millions of viewers.

I find this antipathy toward rugby very frustrating from a Scottish perspective - the football dwarfs everything else in terms of attendances, tv viewing and press coverage - Celtic and Rangers can compete with the top English teams in attendance, if not on the park. They get averages of nearly 60K for Celtic and upper 40s for Rangers - I suspect the averages of the other teams are bolstered by fans of these teams when they play away - they have fans across the country like no other teams.
This despite London alone having a much higher population than Scotland.

The reality is that Scotland are ranked 45th in the Fifa table, the World Rugby table has Scotland at sixth and I think we could do better than that.

Although many of our players have gone through the private school system, it's very often because they won rugby scholarships there from the state sector - these schools are still very strong in sports. The clubs have taken over much of school rugby here now.

Data is not easy to come by because often we are comparing apples with pears, but one of the most reliable sources I saw fairly recently has Scotland way below the other top 10/12 countries on player and club numbers.


Edit, coming back to Scotland was fairly sobering (not a sentence you'll see often) - my hometown club is being run by guys my age, there isn't anyone under the age of late 50s+ involved with keeping it going. The coaches are a bit younger and the players are all very young - the firsts (only team now) are all around 21-22, with our first batch of post-Covid players coming up from the school age next year we are hoping to get a seconds out.
We used to run first to thirds plus Colts (U19s) every week who all played in leagues, with an occasional social fourths.

Question. Borders is largely rural yes?
Is it middle class rural or working class rural?

[Biffer]

So why have you never been able to organise your own top level domestic pro league?

What? We've had two for decades. Super Rugby (now URC) and Currie Cup. Both are so popular and monetised (even with a Rand in the toilet at 23 to 1 vs GBP) , that Antipodeans and Europeans beg SA Teams to join their leagues to bring fans and cash to the local markets.

Super Rugby and URC are both cross border, not domestic. Currie Cup isn't top level (very few international players). You can't support a domestic league in the same way as France does, just as we can't.

[Biffer]

It’s certainly true in both England and Scotland that there’s a lot to be done to better engage people who already quite like rugby in the club game, but ultimately these are football mad countries where as Torq says a lot of football fans have an active antipathy towards the sport (sometimes unfairly but sometimes we deserve it - anyone remember that guide to watching rugby a Wasps fan wrote for Cov City fans?). Sunday Night Rugby Live on TNT is never going to be drawing millions of viewers.

I find this antipathy toward rugby very frustrating from a Scottish perspective - the football dwarfs everything else in terms of attendances, tv viewing and press coverage - Celtic and Rangers can compete with the top English teams in attendance, if not on the park. They get averages of nearly 60K for Celtic and upper 40s for Rangers - I suspect the averages of the other teams are bolstered by fans of these teams when they play away - they have fans across the country like no other teams.
This despite London alone having a much higher population than Scotland.

The reality is that Scotland are ranked 45th in the Fifa table, the World Rugby table has Scotland at sixth and I think we could do better than that.

Although many of our players have gone through the private school system, it's very often because they won rugby scholarships there from the state sector - these schools are still very strong in sports. The clubs have taken over much of school rugby here now.

Data is not easy to come by because often we are comparing apples with pears, but one of the most reliable sources I saw fairly recently has Scotland way below the other top 10/12 countries on player and club numbers.


Edit, coming back to Scotland was fairly sobering (not a sentence you'll see often) - my hometown club is being run by guys my age, there isn't anyone under the age of late 50s+ involved with keeping it going. The coaches are a bit younger and the players are all very young - the firsts (only team now) are all around 21-22, with our first batch of post-Covid players coming up from the school age next year we are hoping to get a seconds out.
We used to run first to thirds plus Colts (U19s) every week who all played in leagues, with an occasional social fourths.

Question. Borders is largely rural yes?
Is it middle class rural or working class rural?

Working class.

Scottish Borders has substantially lower per capita output, wages etc than the Scottish, EU or UK average. And the clubs are very much community based, lads from working class backgrounds playing for them. Very different social background to the Edinburgh clubs for example.

[Uncle fester]

Cool. Was wondering if it was "horsey" rural or sheep rural.