Lions Squad - Who's In?

[charltom]

Can't see them taking 5 centers. Reckon one of those will miss out for a more utility type player such as an Osbourne.

Or indeed Jordan.

And might Lawrence make it in over one of Farrell's familiar Irish names?

[charltom]

I will have a go at a Lions squad. Based on 37 as per SA tour.

Forwards (20):
LHP - Porter, Schoeman, Genge
Hooker - Sheehan, Kelleher, Lake
THP - Furlong, Fagerson, Bealham
2nd Row - McCarthy, Beirne, Cummings, Martin, Itoje,
Back Row - Doris, JVdF, Morgan, Earl, Dempsey/Fagerson, Cunningham-South

Backs (17):
9 - JGP, Williams, White/Mitchell
10 - Russell, Smith x2
Centres - Huwipulotu, Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw
Back 3 - Keenan, Kinghorn, Duhan, Graham, Hansen/Lowe, Dyer

Ireland - 15
Scotland -9/10
England - 7/8
Wales - 3

Clearly a lean towards Scottish players there and tried to get Wales up to 3. I suspect there will end up more English than Scots as they are stronger in areas Scotland have depth and Scotland stronger in areas that are full of competition so expect there will end up being 6-8 Scots.

Furlong needs a good 6 N to prove his fitness, he's not the player he was last Lions tour. Don't rate Bealham much. But can't think of any alternatives
Chessum if fully recovered over Martin
Cunningham-South maybe a good impact player but can't do 80 minutes
Feyi-Waboso over Dyer for his power through the tackle

Yeah THP is a bit grim at the moment.

C-S would be an impact player in that scenario. Would load up the bench for maximum impact as I think the Aussies are more susceptible late on than others. Back row selection might change weekly.

Dyer was a token pick. Wales will need 3-4.

Really? They're playing worse than Scotland were when they didn't get 3-4...

[Biffer]

Furlong needs a good 6 N to prove his fitness, he's not the player he was last Lions tour. Don't rate Bealham much. But can't think of any alternatives
Chessum if fully recovered over Martin
Cunningham-South maybe a good impact player but can't do 80 minutes
Feyi-Waboso over Dyer for his power through the tackle

Yeah THP is a bit grim at the moment.

C-S would be an impact player in that scenario. Would load up the bench for maximum impact as I think the Aussies are more susceptible late on than others. Back row selection might change weekly.

Dyer was a token pick. Wales will need 3-4.

Really? They're playing worse than Scotland were when they didn't get 3-4...

Just what I was going to say. Will Farrell play the politics game or just pick who he thinks is best?

There’s likely to be more pressure to include some Welsh players due to that massive tv money they bring…

[Big D]

Furlong needs a good 6 N to prove his fitness, he's not the player he was last Lions tour. Don't rate Bealham much. But can't think of any alternatives
Chessum if fully recovered over Martin
Cunningham-South maybe a good impact player but can't do 80 minutes
Feyi-Waboso over Dyer for his power through the tackle

Yeah THP is a bit grim at the moment.

C-S would be an impact player in that scenario. Would load up the bench for maximum impact as I think the Aussies are more susceptible late on than others. Back row selection might change weekly.

Dyer was a token pick. Wales will need 3-4.

Really? They're playing worse than Scotland were when they didn't get 3-4...

They still have some quality players. From the Geech and Gats tours Scotland have had at least 2 in the initial squads iirc. Would have been more but for Nel having a neck injury and Jones tearing his hamstring when bang in form.

Wales still have some decent players amongst the dross. Could see a road where more make it than we expect right now.

[Ovals]

Yeah THP is a bit grim at the moment.

C-S would be an impact player in that scenario. Would load up the bench for maximum impact as I think the Aussies are more susceptible late on than others. Back row selection might change weekly.

Dyer was a token pick. Wales will need 3-4.

Really? They're playing worse than Scotland were when they didn't get 3-4...

They still have some quality players. From the Geech and Gats tours Scotland have had at least 2 in the initial squads iirc. Would have been more but for Nel having a neck injury and Jones tearing his hamstring when bang in form.

Wales still have some decent players amongst the dross. Could see a road where more make it than we expect right now.

I'm not a big fan of the Lions and would happily see our guys left at home - but it definitely works better if all the home nations are represented - so, hopefully we'll see some Welsh involvement - makes for a better union of supporters.

[dpedin]

Really? They're playing worse than Scotland were when they didn't get 3-4...

They still have some quality players. From the Geech and Gats tours Scotland have had at least 2 in the initial squads iirc. Would have been more but for Nel having a neck injury and Jones tearing his hamstring when bang in form.

Wales still have some decent players amongst the dross. Could see a road where more make it than we expect right now.

I'm not a big fan of the Lions and would happily see our guys left at home - but it definitely works better if all the home nations are represented - so, hopefully we'll see some Welsh involvement - makes for a better union of supporters.

I really struggle to find a single Welsh player who I would pick on form shown at international level over the past 12 months, and certainly none who have clearly outshone candidates in the same position from other countries. If you also want to pick squad on basis of proven partnerships, style of play, etc then it makes it even more difficult to justify any Welsh guys being selected. I had hoped the likes of Morgan, Reffell and Wainright might have put up a decent showing in defeats but even they looked subdued and well below form. They all need a good 6Ns to have any chance of selection and on current Wales form that looks a tough ask!

[OomStruisbaai]

Lions squad will be 70% Leinster players.

[Uncle fester]

Lions squad will be 70% Leinster players.

We all dream of a team of Dan Sheehans.

[JM2K6]

Speak for yourself - I'm dreaming of a flight path through the Bermuda triangle

[OomStruisbaai]

Lions are well serve with two world class 10s in Marcus Smith and Russell.

[clydecloggie]

They still have some quality players. From the Geech and Gats tours Scotland have had at least 2 in the initial squads iirc. Would have been more but for Nel having a neck injury and Jones tearing his hamstring when bang in form.

Wales still have some decent players amongst the dross. Could see a road where more make it than we expect right now.

I'm not a big fan of the Lions and would happily see our guys left at home - but it definitely works better if all the home nations are represented - so, hopefully we'll see some Welsh involvement - makes for a better union of supporters.

I really struggle to find a single Welsh player who I would pick on form shown at international level over the past 12 months, and certainly none who have clearly outshone candidates in the same position from other countries. If you also want to pick squad on basis of proven partnerships, style of play, etc then it makes it even more difficult to justify any Welsh guys being selected. I had hoped the likes of Morgan, Reffell and Wainright might have put up a decent showing in defeats but even they looked subdued and well below form. They all need a good 6Ns to have any chance of selection and on current Wales form that looks a tough ask!

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

[OomStruisbaai]

Ditto 13s. Huw Jones , Aki, Lawrence.

[OomStruisbaai]

I'm not a big fan of the Lions and would happily see our guys left at home - but it definitely works better if all the home nations are represented - so, hopefully we'll see some Welsh involvement - makes for a better union of supporters.

I really struggle to find a single Welsh player who I would pick on form shown at international level over the past 12 months, and certainly none who have clearly outshone candidates in the same position from other countries. If you also want to pick squad on basis of proven partnerships, style of play, etc then it makes it even more difficult to justify any Welsh guys being selected. I had hoped the likes of Morgan, Reffell and Wainright might have put up a decent showing in defeats but even they looked subdued and well below form. They all need a good 6Ns to have any chance of selection and on current Wales form that looks a tough ask!

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

Horne will be great. Connor Murray for experience.

[JM2K6]

Jac Morgan is nailed on to go. He was phenomenal against France and even if Wales have only a couple of tourists (which they won't) he is going to be one of them regardless

[clydecloggie]

Jac Morgan is nailed on to go. He was phenomenal against France and even if Wales have only a couple of tourists (which they won't) he is going to be one of them regardless

Problem is, so many flankers are having great games, and they do it in winning teams. Darge was phenomenal too yesterday. Van der Flier certainly goes. Willis you'd think is on the plane as well, Beirne who can play 6, Matt Fagerson will be in the mix, a Curry, etc. I don't disagree with Morgan being a candidate, but other than Van Der Flier I don't think any of the flankers are certainties so he's not nailed on.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not a big fan of the Lions and would happily see our guys left at home - but it definitely works better if all the home nations are represented - so, hopefully we'll see some Welsh involvement - makes for a better union of supporters.

I really struggle to find a single Welsh player who I would pick on form shown at international level over the past 12 months, and certainly none who have clearly outshone candidates in the same position from other countries. If you also want to pick squad on basis of proven partnerships, style of play, etc then it makes it even more difficult to justify any Welsh guys being selected. I had hoped the likes of Morgan, Reffell and Wainright might have put up a decent showing in defeats but even they looked subdued and well below form. They all need a good 6Ns to have any chance of selection and on current Wales form that looks a tough ask!

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

Mitchell is comfortably the next best eligible scrum half.

Williams needs to ignore whatever he's being told to do for Wales if he wants a seat. He looks good for Glaws, not even a dirt tracker in the national shirt recently.

Outside of back row options I think Rowlands could be in with a shot at touring simply because massive lump tighthead locks aren't in plentiful supply. The best the various B&I teams offer at the moment tend to be the mor wiry lineout locks.

[JM2K6]

Jac Morgan is nailed on to go. He was phenomenal against France and even if Wales have only a couple of tourists (which they won't) he is going to be one of them regardless

Problem is, so many flankers are having great games, and they do it in winning teams. Darge was phenomenal too yesterday. Van der Flier certainly goes. Willis you'd think is on the plane as well, Beirne who can play 6, Matt Fagerson will be in the mix, a Curry, etc. I don't disagree with Morgan being a candidate, but other than Van Der Flier I don't think any of the flankers are certainties so he's not nailed on.

I really don't think the most outstanding player from any of the teams is going to miss out, honestly. In this case, Willis is not guaranteed, especially given the issues with the top14 and his lack of international rugby. Fagerson will be behind Morgan based on performances alone. Curry will probably travel thanks to his career performances and being one of the few positives from the last tour, but if it did come down to the two of them, Morgan would get the nod.

Morgan is equally comfortable at 6 or 7, is a serious leader, is Wales's best player, and is frequently starring in matches where his team is utterly outclassed. They took 6 back rows last time, and a couple of hybrid locks. There is no way he isn't in the list of 6 best back rows. He. Is. Nailed. On.

[Biffer]

Jac Morgan is nailed on to go. He was phenomenal against France and even if Wales have only a couple of tourists (which they won't) he is going to be one of them regardless

Problem is, so many flankers are having great games, and they do it in winning teams. Darge was phenomenal too yesterday. Van der Flier certainly goes. Willis you'd think is on the plane as well, Beirne who can play 6, Matt Fagerson will be in the mix, a Curry, etc. I don't disagree with Morgan being a candidate, but other than Van Der Flier I don't think any of the flankers are certainties so he's not nailed on.

I really don't think the most outstanding player from any of the teams is going to miss out, honestly. In this case, Willis is not guaranteed, especially given the issues with the top14 and his lack of international rugby. Fagerson will be behind Morgan based on performances alone. Curry will probably travel thanks to his career performances and being one of the few positives from the last tour, but if it did come down to the two of them, Morgan would get the nod.

Morgan is equally comfortable at 6 or 7, is a serious leader, is Wales's best player, and is frequently starring in matches where his team is utterly outclassed. They took 6 back rows last time, and a couple of hybrid locks. There is no way he isn't in the list of 6 best back rows. He. Is. Nailed. On.

Starring in matches for a shit team is easy.

No one is nailed on in the back row.

[JM2K6]

Problem is, so many flankers are having great games, and they do it in winning teams. Darge was phenomenal too yesterday. Van der Flier certainly goes. Willis you'd think is on the plane as well, Beirne who can play 6, Matt Fagerson will be in the mix, a Curry, etc. I don't disagree with Morgan being a candidate, but other than Van Der Flier I don't think any of the flankers are certainties so he's not nailed on.

I really don't think the most outstanding player from any of the teams is going to miss out, honestly. In this case, Willis is not guaranteed, especially given the issues with the top14 and his lack of international rugby. Fagerson will be behind Morgan based on performances alone. Curry will probably travel thanks to his career performances and being one of the few positives from the last tour, but if it did come down to the two of them, Morgan would get the nod.

Morgan is equally comfortable at 6 or 7, is a serious leader, is Wales's best player, and is frequently starring in matches where his team is utterly outclassed. They took 6 back rows last time, and a couple of hybrid locks. There is no way he isn't in the list of 6 best back rows. He. Is. Nailed. On.

Starring in matches for a shit team is easy.

No one is nailed on in the back row.

To get on the plane? You think vdf is at risk? Doris? 70% of this squad isn't hard to pick.

And no, I don't think it's easy to stand out when your team is getting battered. He's carrying the side on his shoulders and putting in huge shifts in attack and defence against the best teams in the world. That is the opposite of easy.

[Uncle fester]

Ditto 13s. Huw Jones , Aki, Lawrence.

Aki is a 12

[charltom]

I really struggle to find a single Welsh player who I would pick on form shown at international level over the past 12 months, and certainly none who have clearly outshone candidates in the same position from other countries. If you also want to pick squad on basis of proven partnerships, style of play, etc then it makes it even more difficult to justify any Welsh guys being selected. I had hoped the likes of Morgan, Reffell and Wainright might have put up a decent showing in defeats but even they looked subdued and well below form. They all need a good 6Ns to have any chance of selection and on current Wales form that looks a tough ask!

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

Mitchell is comfortably the next best eligible scrum half.

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

[clydecloggie]

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

Mitchell is comfortably the next best eligible scrum half.

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

Mitchell, White and Williams are all much of a muchness to me. Perhaps it's the Dupont effect, where the yardstick is so ridiculous that it makes all the others look the same level of mediocre.

Ideal position for a token Welsh dirt tracker pick.

[sockwithaticket]

That's the problem - the best Welsh players are back rows, and there's a wealth of talent playing really well in the other three nations. So perhaps the most likely Welshie currently is Tomos Williams, as scrum half is a bit of a problem area. Gibson-Park obviously goes but after him it's wide open and neither Mitchell nor White are putting a real stamp on their candidacy for now.

Mitchell is comfortably the next best eligible scrum half.

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

I'm willing to cut guys who do the business for their club yet not England some slack on that at the moment given the instability with England's defence coach and the chopping and changing of the defensive system used over the last 12 months.

[dpedin]

Mitchell is comfortably the next best eligible scrum half.

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

I'm willing to cut guys who do the business for their club yet not England some slack on that at the moment given the instability with England's defence coach and the chopping and changing of the defensive system used over the last 12 months.

They aren't exactly playing in the strongest league though are they! If they do it with their club team which then reaches the top end of the European competition then perhaps that's a good indicator but doing it for say Leicester, 4th in the Premiership who then ship 80 points against Toulouse and 40+ against Bordeaux - nah! On that basis then as URC Champs then Darge and Fagerson would be defo picks for the Lions squad. There is a big step up playing internationally and the reality is some of the English squad, despite what they do at club level, just aren't good enough and shouldn't be near the Lions squad.

[Hal Jordan]

The actual question will be who is fit, because at least one Nailed On Starter will get injured before the tour starts.

[sockwithaticket]

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

I'm willing to cut guys who do the business for their club yet not England some slack on that at the moment given the instability with England's defence coach and the chopping and changing of the defensive system used over the last 12 months.

They aren't exactly playing in the strongest league though are they! If they do it with their club team which then reaches the top end of the European competition then perhaps that's a good indicator but doing it for say Leicester, 4th in the Premiership who then ship 80 points against Toulouse and 40+ against Bordeaux - nah! On that basis then as URC Champs then Darge and Fagerson would be defo picks for the Lions squad. There is a big step up playing internationally and the reality is some of the English squad, despite what they do at club level, just aren't good enough and shouldn't be near the Lions squad.

Good job we're no talking about selecting a Leicester 9.

Using the 'top end of Europe' as a yard stick over the last few seasons, you'd only be picking from Leinster and English teams like Quins, Saints and Exeter. You have to go back to 18/19 to find another URC team get as far as the semi-finals (Munster).

You can trace my comment history, I think England under Borthwick are shit, I predict we'll finish below Scotland in 4th this 6N and that owes a lot more to how crap Italy and Wales are than it does us being any good. Despite that, our players are individually good enough to keep us within a score of proper opposition at the moment. With some proper coaching, who knows where they'd be.

This all began with talk of who will play 9 and I think Mitchell is easily the second best 9 after JGP. When it gets broadened out to our wings, no I don't think debutant Murley or 'is he a centre or a wing' Freeman are nailed on for the Lions. I just don't think England's misfiring defence is an especially good indicator of why they shouldn't be there.

[SaintK]

Can he tackle though? Didn't look like it yesterday. In fact, both English halves and both wings displayed woeful "tackling". That may cost them.

I'm willing to cut guys who do the business for their club yet not England some slack on that at the moment given the instability with England's defence coach and the chopping and changing of the defensive system used over the last 12 months.

They aren't exactly playing in the strongest league though are they! If they do it with their club team which then reaches the top end of the European competition then perhaps that's a good indicator but doing it for say Leicester, 4th in the Premiership who then ship 80 points against Toulouse and 40+ against Bordeaux - nah! On that basis then as URC Champs then Darge and Fagerson would be defo picks for the Lions squad. There is a big step up playing internationally and the reality is some of the English squad, despite what they do at club level, just aren't good enough and shouldn't be near the Lions squad.

Saints won their group in Europe and are seeded, they were also semi-finalists last season.
Mitchell slipped off one tackle on Saturday which led to a score and is now crap!!!
Not sure how many 9's Farrell will select but I reckon JG-P, Williams and Mitchell will make the cut injury permitting.

[Torquemada 1420]

Starring in matches for a shit team is easy.

No one is nailed on in the back row.

You did mean in defensive positions like the back row? Because it's certainly not true for a SH or FH playing behind a beaten pack.

[Torquemada 1420]

Saints won their group in Europe and are seeded, they were also semi-finalists last season.
Mitchell slipped off one tackle on Saturday which led to a score and is now crap!!!
Not sure how many 9's Farrell will select but I reckon JG-P, Williams and Mitchell will make the cut injury permitting.

A group which was far easier than the others. But irrelevant anyway IMHO, Mitchell is the best candidate. URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

[Tichtheid]

URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

The "Round of 16" is made up of 5 URC, 5 English and 6 French sides

[SaintK]

URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

The "Round of 16" is made up of 5 URC, 5 English and 6 French sides

Should imagine Toulouse will provide more British Lions than Ulster will

[Biffer]

URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

The "Round of 16" is made up of 5 URC, 5 English and 6 French sides

The last 16 isn't much of an achievement though. Let's see what the last 8 looks like.

[Tichtheid]

URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

The "Round of 16" is made up of 5 URC, 5 English and 6 French sides

Should imagine Toulouse will provide more British Lions than Ulster will

Ha!

Yeah, Kinghorn and Jack Willis will be on the plane, I'm sure.

@Biffer, I wouldn't be surprised if it was home wins all round, leaving 5 French, 1 English and 2 URC teams

[JM2K6]

I'm willing to cut guys who do the business for their club yet not England some slack on that at the moment given the instability with England's defence coach and the chopping and changing of the defensive system used over the last 12 months.

They aren't exactly playing in the strongest league though are they! If they do it with their club team which then reaches the top end of the European competition then perhaps that's a good indicator but doing it for say Leicester, 4th in the Premiership who then ship 80 points against Toulouse and 40+ against Bordeaux - nah! On that basis then as URC Champs then Darge and Fagerson would be defo picks for the Lions squad. There is a big step up playing internationally and the reality is some of the English squad, despite what they do at club level, just aren't good enough and shouldn't be near the Lions squad.

Saints won their group in Europe and are seeded, they were also semi-finalists last season.
Mitchell slipped off one tackle on Saturday which led to a score and is now crap!!!
Not sure how many 9's Farrell will select but I reckon JG-P, Williams and Mitchell will make the cut injury permitting.

Mitchell missed six tackles!

None of this matters, though. No player is suddenly missing out because of Saturday, no matter how much some people want to make out that it exposed fatal flaws.

[Torquemada 1420]

URC sides aren't really doing a lot better in Europe to make that a benchmark for Lions selection.

The "Round of 16" is made up of 5 URC, 5 English and 6 French sides

The last 16 isn't much of an achievement though. Let's see what the last 8 looks like.

Yeah. That's my point. If it had been a proper 8 qualifying then you'd only see 3 non French teams and one of those is the inevitable Leinster.

[SaintK]

They aren't exactly playing in the strongest league though are they! If they do it with their club team which then reaches the top end of the European competition then perhaps that's a good indicator but doing it for say Leicester, 4th in the Premiership who then ship 80 points against Toulouse and 40+ against Bordeaux - nah! On that basis then as URC Champs then Darge and Fagerson would be defo picks for the Lions squad. There is a big step up playing internationally and the reality is some of the English squad, despite what they do at club level, just aren't good enough and shouldn't be near the Lions squad.

Saints won their group in Europe and are seeded, they were also semi-finalists last season.
Mitchell slipped off one tackle on Saturday which led to a score and is now crap!!!
Not sure how many 9's Farrell will select but I reckon JG-P, Williams and Mitchell will make the cut injury permitting.

Mitchell missed six tackles!

None of this matters, though. No player is suddenly missing out because of Saturday, no matter how much some people want to make out that it exposed fatal flaws.

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

[Oxbow]

ESPN says that Mitchell missed six tackles, he made a couple of howlers but I don't remember him missing that many. Whatever, it definitely wasn't one of his better games.

[Marylandolorian]

Looks like Shaun Edwards would love to be part of the Lions tour if Faz gives him the opportunity.

[Big D]

Looks like Shaun Edwards would love to be part of the Lions tour if Faz gives him the opportunity.

He shouldn't be anywhere near it if still employed by France.

[dpedin]

Saints won their group in Europe and are seeded, they were also semi-finalists last season.
Mitchell slipped off one tackle on Saturday which led to a score and is now crap!!!
Not sure how many 9's Farrell will select but I reckon JG-P, Williams and Mitchell will make the cut injury permitting.

Mitchell missed six tackles!

None of this matters, though. No player is suddenly missing out because of Saturday, no matter how much some people want to make out that it exposed fatal flaws.

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!