Lions Squad - Who's In?

[PornDog]

Looks like Shaun Edwards would love to be part of the Lions tour if Faz gives him the opportunity.

He shouldn't be anywhere near it if still employed by France.

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

[SaintK]

Mitchell missed six tackles!

None of this matters, though. No player is suddenly missing out because of Saturday, no matter how much some people want to make out that it exposed fatal flaws.

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

I don't think that's the case at all. There are a few I would weed out nand a few currently injured that would be a positive addition back in the squad. I think it's down to coaching and the game plan devised by the coaches. I have always had my doubts about Borthwick as an international head coach, he's a plodder, much as he was as a player. There several better attack coaches in the Premiership than Wigglesworth will ever be and as for defence and forwards coaches, who the bloody hell are they?

[sockwithaticket]

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

I don't think that's the case at all. There are a few I would weed out nand a few currently injured that would be a positive addition back in the squad. I think it's down to coaching and the game plan devised by the coaches. I have always had my doubts about Borthwick as an international head coach, he's a plodder, much as he was as a player. There several better attack coaches in the Premiership than Wigglesworth will ever be and as for defence and forwards coaches, who the bloody hell are they?

We're in such a tough position with coaching, England jobs just aren't that attractive anymore. Jones clearly cultivated an environment that forced out experienced guys who might disagree with him and accrued those who had few other decent opportunities at the time or were green, so there's not really anyone useful still hanging around from is reign.

The absolute state he left England in probably makes anyone with a top job, be it club or international, hesitant to throw their hat in the ring. A rebuild could make a reputation, but there's so much that can go wrong and tank your reputation instead. It's not like walking into an already pretty functional environment.

To compound that we seem to have our vacancies at times when there are very few coaches on the market. It's just not normal for international teams to shed as many back room staff as we have been, certainly not between world cups. These days the RFU are less flush and can't break out the cheque book to buy people out of their contracts or whack up the pay to make an England role look more attractive.

[inactionman]

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

I don't think that's the case at all. There are a few I would weed out nand a few currently injured that would be a positive addition back in the squad. I think it's down to coaching and the game plan devised by the coaches. I have always had my doubts about Borthwick as an international head coach, he's a plodder, much as he was as a player. There several better attack coaches in the Premiership than Wigglesworth will ever be and as for defence and forwards coaches, who the bloody hell are they?

We're in such a tough position with coaching, England jobs just aren't that attractive anymore. Jones clearly cultivated an environment that forced out experienced guys who might disagree with him and accrued those who had few other decent opportunities at the time or were green, so there's not really anyone useful still hanging around from is reign.

The absolute state he left England in probably makes anyone with a top job, be it club or international, hesitant to throw their hat in the ring. A rebuild could make a reputation, but there's so much that can go wrong and tank your reputation instead. It's not like walking into an already pretty functional environment.

To compound that we seem to have our vacancies at times when there are very few coaches on the market. It's just not normal for international teams to shed as many back room staff as we have been, certainly not between world cups. These days the RFU are less flush and can't break out the cheque book to buy people out of their contracts or whack up the pay to make an England role look more attractive.

It's probably worth factoring in the usual club vs country problem, that England seem almost uniquely unable to resolve.

If you coach Ireland, for example, you can dictate to the clubs who they play and when - they can insist Leinster keep Snyman on the bench to avoid blocking an Irish player's pathway. I'm sure many England coaches, past and present, would love that ability. It will simply never happen.

I'll be interested to se how this dual contract thing works, out, as it makes some sense on paper - give England some control over how a player develops whilst paying for that privilege, and lessening the salary cap issues.

[Big D]

Looks like Shaun Edwards would love to be part of the Lions tour if Faz gives him the opportunity.

He shouldn't be anywhere near it if still employed by France.

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

Curious counter point. Neither are employed by the French rugby union and will be afterwards.

It's accepted among the four unions that there will be some learning/scouting of other teams best players but it would very silly to give France the advantage for free.

[Tichtheid]

He shouldn't be anywhere near it if still employed by France.

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

Curious counter point. Neither are employed by the French rugby union and will be afterwards.

It's accepted among the four unions that there will be some learning/scouting of other teams best players but it would very silly to give France the advantage for free.

The flip side of that is that the players in the Lions squad get access to one of, if not the best defence coach in rugby, and can take that info back to their respective teams.

[Big D]

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

Curious counter point. Neither are employed by the French rugby union and will be afterwards.

It's accepted among the four unions that there will be some learning/scouting of other teams best players but it would very silly to give France the advantage for free.

The flip side of that is that the players in the Lions squad get access to one of, if not the best defence coach in rugby, and can take that info back to their respective teams.

Fair, but then there is also double world cup winning Felix Jones available too.

I don't think defence coach is something they need to look outside the home nations for, particularly one working on the staff of an annual rival.

[PornDog]

He shouldn't be anywhere near it if still employed by France.

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

Curious counter point. Neither are employed by the French rugby union and will be afterwards.

It's accepted among the four unions that there will be some learning/scouting of other teams best players but it would very silly to give France the advantage for free.

Wasn't so much a counter as it was attempting to understand your objection.

I do think if Toulouse are in the business end of the TOP14 that it wont do Willis and Kinghorn any favours in selection meetings. How much of the tour could they potentially miss?

[Tichtheid]

Does that reasoning extend to Willis and Kinghorn as well?

Having said that, I'd imagine he'd be needed (and under contract) with the French team for their Summer tour.

Curious counter point. Neither are employed by the French rugby union and will be afterwards.

It's accepted among the four unions that there will be some learning/scouting of other teams best players but it would very silly to give France the advantage for free.

Wasn't so much a counter as it was attempting to understand your objection.

I do think if Toulouse are in the business end of the TOP14 that it wont do Willis and Kinghorn any favours in selection meetings. How much of the tour could they potentially miss?

They'd miss the warm up against Argentina and the first tour game against WF.

There's three weeks till the first test after the Top 14 final.

(edit I initially said two weeks, but that's an invitational team made up of NZ and Aus players)

[JM2K6]

Mitchell missed six tackles!

None of this matters, though. No player is suddenly missing out because of Saturday, no matter how much some people want to make out that it exposed fatal flaws.

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

Top level European rugby isn't far off the 6N standard, tbh.

[Biffer]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

[inactionman]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you're giving Steve Borthwick's opinion more weight than any England fan ever would.

[sockwithaticket]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Not getting test time at 10 in the run up will certainly hurt Smith's chances, but Steve Borthwick thinking he's more useful at 15 for England doesn't mean anything in relation to his playing ability and suitability at 10 for the Lions.

Steve Borthwick has thought Freddie Steward on the wing is a good idea.

[Slick]

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

Top level European rugby isn't far off the 6N standard, tbh.

Not sure I agree with that, there is still a decent step up

[sockwithaticket]

Depends on the teams really. Some of the big European beasts likeToulouse, Bourdeaux or Leinster would provide a stiffer test to a 6N team than Wales or Italy.

[Slick]

Depends on the teams really. Some of the big European beasts likeToulouse, Bourdeaux or Leinster would provide a stiffer test to a 6N team than Wales or Italy.

Probably true, but I think there are a lot of other factors such as the physical and emotional drain of playing for your country in a 6N that makes it a much tougher proposition.

[SaintK]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you're giving Steve Borthwick's opinion more weight than any England fan ever would.

Quite!
If I were a Scottish fan I'd be looking to Russell to recover some form after last weekend and his past couple of Bath matches.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you're giving Steve Borthwick's opinion more weight than any England fan ever would.

Quite!
If I were a Scottish fan I'd be looking to Russell to recover some form after last weekend and his past couple of Bath matches.

Point of order, I think Russell looked pretty decent against Sale!
Agreed he was a bit loose against Italy, but was also at the heart of a lot of the good stuff.

[JM2K6]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Who are you talking to

[PornDog]

Quite!
I don't usually look at players individual stats though do look at the general match stats themselves. If what you say is true Mitchell was reponsible for a 25% of Englands missed tackles on his own!!!!

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

Top level European rugby isn't far off the 6N standard, tbh.

True, but it's also fair to say that very few of the games in Europe could be labelled as "Top Level European Rugby". Quarte finals on and a rare handful of group games and that's it.

[SaintK]

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but you're giving Steve Borthwick's opinion more weight than any England fan ever would.

Quite!
If I were a Scottish fan I'd be looking to Russell to recover some form after last weekend and his past couple of Bath matches.

Point of order, I think Russell looked pretty decent against Sale!
Agreed he was a bit loose against Italy, but was also at the heart of a lot of the good stuff.

He was indeed against Sale. Has had a mixed bag in some recent Bath matches though particularly overhitting kicks and missing passes. Still my preferred starting choice for the Lions mind you.
I'm not the greatest fan of M Smith but but he makes things happen and was most papers and rugby sites 10 of the week after last weekend. I should imagine he'll be there or thereabouts for the Lions. I'd love to see F Smith make the tour but should imagine Crowley would take the third fly-half spot.

[JM2K6]

I actually like Mitchel as a 9 and think he has a strong chance to be on the Lions Tour. The point I was making was as a previous poster was suggesting using poor English form as an excuse for individuals and suggesting they should be judged on their league form where they do well. Playing international or at the sharp end of Europe is a big step up and some who perform well in their leagues cant cope with the next step up, others shine when they put on an international jersey. Murley is a good example based on Saturdays display - runs in tries for fun for Quins in the league but looked completely out of his depth on Saturday with pace and intensity of the game and froze. He might still come good? On the opposite side is VdM who rarely shows hit top form for Edinburgh in the league but puts on a Scottish jersey and scores tries for fun in 6Ns and internationals. A lot of English woes is in team selection and the continued choice of players who haven't shown the ability to make the step up to international level, despite having others who probably could!

Top level European rugby isn't far off the 6N standard, tbh.

True, but it's also fair to say that very few of the games in Europe could be labelled as "Top Level European Rugby". Quarte finals on and a rare handful of group games and that's it.

The big French sides, Leinster, maybe a Saffer side away from home. Appreciate playing the URC champions is some way off.

Hence "top level".

[Slick]

Top level European rugby isn't far off the 6N standard, tbh.

True, but it's also fair to say that very few of the games in Europe could be labelled as "Top Level European Rugby". Quarte finals on and a rare handful of group games and that's it.

The big French sides, Leinster, maybe a Saffer side away from home. Appreciate playing the URC champions is some way off.

Hence "top level".

Too subtle

[JM2K6]

True, but it's also fair to say that very few of the games in Europe could be labelled as "Top Level European Rugby". Quarte finals on and a rare handful of group games and that's it.

The big French sides, Leinster, maybe a Saffer side away from home. Appreciate playing the URC champions is some way off.

Hence "top level".

Too subtle

Just getting ahead of the people who would assume I was talking about the Glasgow game, when in reality they were away from home, missing a super important player, and had already qualified in a good position.

Gotta get your licks in first, yknow

[Biffer]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Who are you talking to

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

[JM2K6]

The 'Marcus Smith for Lions fly half' cheerleaders will have a job on if he loses that job for England to Fin Smith.

Who are you talking to

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

I'm just curious, I don't think I've seen anyone putting him as the Lions 10. Russell is in the driving seat.

[Punter15]

Who are you talking to

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

I'm just curious, I don't think I've seen anyone putting him as the Lions 10. Russell is in the driving seat.

Has Owen ruled himself out?

[Biffer]

Who are you talking to

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

I'm just curious, I don't think I've seen anyone putting him as the Lions 10. Russell is in the driving seat.

Sam Warburton for a start

https://www.ruck.co.uk/sam-warburton-ha ... h-captain/

Danny Care

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... v-30154272

You’re right, Russell is first in line but there’s a whack of muttering from a few quarters.

[JM2K6]

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

I'm just curious, I don't think I've seen anyone putting him as the Lions 10. Russell is in the driving seat.

Sam Warburton for a start

https://www.ruck.co.uk/sam-warburton-ha ... h-captain/

Danny Care

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... v-30154272

You’re right, Russell is first in line but there’s a whack of muttering from a few quarters.

Oh, sorry, when you said cheerleaders I thought you meant people on here banging on about it, rather than some pros giving their opinion. You can see why I was confused!

[Slick]

Who are you talking to

Christ, if we’re going to have to specify who were talking to on here now, there’s a lot of posters who’ll get very confused.

I'm just curious, I don't think I've seen anyone putting him as the Lions 10. Russell is in the driving seat.

Guilty

[Yr Alban]

Russell should have been at 10 for the Lions last time, and showed why in the third Test. This time around, he ought to be in pole position, but indifferent games like the one v Italy aren’t going to help. He wasn’t bad, but he threw one entirely unforced interception pass and put us in needless trouble as a result.

[inactionman]

Russell should have been at 10 for the Lions last time, and showed why in the third Test. This time around, he ought to be in pole position, but indifferent games like the one v Italy aren’t going to help. He wasn’t bad, but he threw one entirely unforced interception pass and put us in needless trouble as a result.

I think he'd have to lose a leg to not be the incumbent 10.

Form plays a role, but he's been the leading candidate for a season or two.

Mind you, not all that long ago I'd have had George Ford as the second-in-line, so what do I know.

[Punter15]

Is Living With Lions available on any of the streaming services?

[Big D]

Is Living With Lions available on any of the streaming services?

Don't think so.

[Blackmac]

Kinghorn absolutely nailed the full back spot today and Russell reasserted his claim. I think all the Scots backs have put their hands up. Schoeman and Fagerson have damaged their chances. Can't see one Scottish forward, other than Ritchie who improved their chances. Much the same with the Irish players, although they are all in a far stronger position from the start.
Jac Morgan the only Welshman on the plane.

[Big D]

Kinghorn absolutely nailed the full back spot today and Russell reasserted his claim. I think all the Scots backs have put their hands up. Schoeman and Fagerson have damaged their chances. Can't see one Scottish forward, other than Ritchie who improved their chances. Much the same with the Irish players, although they are all in a far stronger position from the start.
Jac Morgan the only Welshman on the plane.

Not sure Fagerson hurt his chances. He was decent today.

[Blackmac]

Kinghorn absolutely nailed the full back spot today and Russell reasserted his claim. I think all the Scots backs have put their hands up. Schoeman and Fagerson have damaged their chances. Can't see one Scottish forward, other than Ritchie who improved their chances. Much the same with the Irish players, although they are all in a far stronger position from the start.
Jac Morgan the only Welshman on the plane.

Not sure Fagerson hurt his chances. He was decent today.

Yeah, that was probably unfair. Decent around the park and probably wasn't at fault for the scrum penalties.

[Jim Lahey]

I think we can rule Joe McCarthy out of the trip, unless he grows a brain between now and the squad announcement date.

[Uncle fester]

I think we can rule Joe McCarthy out of the trip, unless he grows a brain between now and the squad announcement date.

Was anyone really considering him?

Think both Blairhorn and Keenan will travel but on the evidence of the matches, it'll be Blairhorn starting the tests.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

why not pick Kinghorn on the wing and Keenan at 15? then you've a shootout between VDM, Feyi-Waboso and Lowe, maybe Hansen for the final starting spot.