The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Slick]

I'd take Williams back before offering ROG the job.

Thinking outside the box, I like it.

[Tichtheid]

Franco is the obvious choice, as much as it will not be popular at Scotstoun

[Jock42]

Franco is the obvious choice, as much as it will not be popular at Scotstoun

Agreed. Keeps him involved in Scottish Rugby too which is better than losing him to Leicester.

[BagfordViper]

Ireland deserved winners and losing Russell, Graham and Zander is unhelpful.

What really hacks me off is that Ireland seem to have acquired Richie McCaw's cloak of invisibility where officials are concerned, it was so blatant and the officials kept letting them get away with being in the way and obstructing Scottish ball all day game if it wasn't bodies it was hands coming through the ruck. Video killed off McCaws game, I just don't understand why the same isn't applied to the Irish.

I completely agree with this. The same applies to offside in the back line. I'm getting increasingly fed up with 'rush' defences where the outside centre starts a couple of yards offside, the line sometimes doing a sort of 30 degree drift forwards from the ruck or maul, and it's just overlooked or ignored. I also think officials seem to look for individuals drifting forrwardrather than entire backlines. We so seldom see absolute right angle views of plays, but I do begin to wonder if Ireland have twigged that if their ENTIRE backline drifts forward a metre or two, it looks fine to the officials on the very cursory scrutiny they have time to give in a highly dynamic environment.

It's easy to get paranoid about this and important to stress that Scotland simply weren't at the races yesterday. They were beaten thoroughlyby a better side.. But the quality of scrutiny and the 'which law shall we ignore this season?' approach by officials (think lineout throwers standing in the field of play, as a very basic and easily remediable example) does undermine confidence in the fairness of it all, and not by any means just as applied to Scotland.

[Blackmac]

Utterly depressing. Beaten before kick off, with all their media chat the Irish are much more up for that than Scotland. Compounded by the loss to Russell and Graham. Ref was shite but the Irish didn't need his help, although they got it.

We will never be a top team whilst they continue to have these brain dead 20 to 30 minutes periods. Toonie and his team just haven't been able to coach that out of them.

[SaintK]

Ireland deserved winners and losing Russell, Graham and Zander is unhelpful.

What really hacks me off is that Ireland seem to have acquired Richie McCaw's cloak of invisibility where officials are concerned, it was so blatant and the officials kept letting them get away with being in the way and obstructing Scottish ball all day game if it wasn't bodies it was hands coming through the ruck. Video killed off McCaws game, I just don't understand why the same isn't applied to the Irish.

Both teams were flying off their feet at the ruck but agree that Ireland seem to get away with all sorts of things at the breakdown, they did the same to England the previous week. Leinster have it down to a fine art as well.

[KingBlairhorn]

Ireland deserved winners and losing Russell, Graham and Zander is unhelpful.

What really hacks me off is that Ireland seem to have acquired Richie McCaw's cloak of invisibility where officials are concerned, it was so blatant and the officials kept letting them get away with being in the way and obstructing Scottish ball all day game if it wasn't bodies it was hands coming through the ruck. Video killed off McCaws game, I just don't understand why the same isn't applied to the Irish.

I completely agree with this. The same applies to offside in the back line. I'm getting increasingly fed up with 'rush' defences where the outside centre starts a couple of yards offside, the line sometimes doing a sort of 30 degree drift forwards from the ruck or maul, and it's just overlooked or ignored. I also think officials seem to look for individuals drifting forrwardrather than entire backlines. We so seldom see absolute right angle views of plays, but I do begin to wonder if Ireland have twigged that if their ENTIRE backline drifts forward a metre or two, it looks fine to the officials on the very cursory scrutiny they have time to give in a highly dynamic environment.

It's easy to get paranoid about this and important to stress that Scotland simply weren't at the races yesterday. They were beaten thoroughlyby a better side.. But the quality of scrutiny and the 'which law shall we ignore this season?' approach by officials (think lineout throwers standing in the field of play, as a very basic and easily remediable example) does undermine confidence in the fairness of it all, and not by any means just as applied to Scotland.

I’m not allowing the ‘highly dynamic’ excuse. There are 4 officials watching the match at any one time. Given how important the offside line is to outcomes in the game one could be watching it permanently and calling to the ref when there is offside.

The issue for me is, and Nigel Owens readily admits this frequently in his comms, the refs seem to think their job is to ensure the flow of the game. This is fundamentally incorrect, their role is to police the laws. Nothing more, nothing less. Because they seem to think they are there to ensure flow they frequently ignore offences or ‘coach’ a team who is committing an offence to stop (thereby allowing them to achieve the goal which is often to slow the ball). If the refs just went back to using the laws as written we would have a very disjointed game for a short period after which teams would stop stretching credulity and play to the laws.

[Yr Alban]

I’m not going to say that the most successful teams are successful because they are the best at cheating. That would be unfair, as they also have lots of great players and are very well coached. But there is a correlation there. If your forwards can effectively slow the ball at every breakdown, and your backs can start their rush defence a yard or two offside, and they consistently get away with it, then it’s going to give you an edge in every game, and we know that Test rugby is a game of fine margins.

For the benefit of any interlopers, Scotland lost yesterday because we didn’t turn up, not because of the ref. But how well you play the ref really shouldn’t be a part of the game.

[BagfordViper]

I don't remotely mean to suggest the dynamic environment is any sort of excuse. When it comes to backlines going offside, that's something the useless lot running the touchlines should police. I also completely agree with you re the 'keeping the game flowing' garbage. That's definitely where much of the unfairness stems from, not least because it too often seems to boil down to indulging the side that appears to have the ascendancy. I was nonetheless struck by how often on Sunday I noted that when mayhem and blatant cheating was going on at and around White's feet, the referee was actually looking away from it for some other possible infarction of the laws.

Y Alban is also correct in both respects. A side pushing things and getting away with it will have an advantage. And yes, Scotland lost because we didn't show, not because of any chicanery by Ireland.

Personally I think it would be nice, possibly as a trial, just once, to see a referee just whistle this sort of thing into oblivion and see what happens.

On the other hand, I can already hear Nigel bloviating about keeping the game flowing and the kiwis pressing for law changes to legalise whatever dark arts might under scrutiny. Best just suck it up I suppose, and look ahead to two weeks' time.

[Jock42]

Muncaster, McCann, Bennet and Boff all back in full training. Douglas training with U20s.

[Wylie Coyote]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

[Slick]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

Agree with some of this.

The bit about the tight 5 and 2nd row in particular I agree with, we can have the best back line for a generation, which we do, but when we get bested up front so comprehensively it rarely matters.

I think the 2nd bit contradicts that a bit though. Given we don't have one of the stronger packs we need to play a different type of game to an Ireland, which relies on quick ball and giving the backs good position to do what the they do, so the coaching is probably the right coaching. It's just ineffective against Ireland, and particularly an Ireland given as much leeway to stop quick ball.

[Yr Alban]

Bagford is right: ‘keeping the game flowing’ by turning a blind eye to infringements will mostly benefit the team doing most of the attacking - hence the team already on top.

Rugby really doesn’t need any more law changes or interpretations that favour the biggest teams. We have enough of those already. We know many refs will give marginal scrum-time decisions to the benefit of the team they perceive to be better. Tactical subs mean you need a far bigger pool of Test grade players, partly to avoid a drop-off when they come on, partly because players knowing they won’t have to play 80 minutes leads to bigger players, bigger collisions and more injuries. And now this. The only change I can think of that benefits the underdog is the 3-year stand down to represent another country you’re qualified for, and that feels like lip service.

[Yr Alban]

I’ve posted before that I detest Tom English’s ghoulish enthusiasm for a Scotland reverse, and that I think it’s inappropriate for an Irishman to be the BBC’s main man commenting on Scotland, especially when we play his own country. But despite all of that, I simply can’t disagree with a single word he says here. Every year we do exactly the same thing against Ireland hoping it will be different, and every year we lose. This result was predicted by everyone except Gregor Townsend. Maybe we don’t have the players to handle their brand of rugby, but we don’t even look as if we’re trying to. We gave it a proper shot last year in Dublin and it was close. So why have we learned nothing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 7krpg7258o

[inactionman]

He just can't help himself.

[I like neeps]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

[Yr Alban]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

[I like neeps]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

I hate PoM as much as everyone, talking of refereeing decisions when he injured Hogg with a late nasty hit and got off with it still annoys me... But it's a fair enough post? He's not punching down? He wants to the villain.

[Wylie Coyote]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

I know stopping them is a challenge, my issue is that we rarely even compete with them. I feel like many other lesser teams push them much harder than we seem to. It is entirely predictable what they will come to do, there is no need for us to be predictable - we needed to show something different. The Ireland game has become an annual barometer for our progression - or rather lack of progression. In 2024 we at least showed some fight, this year normal service was resumed. Of course we wanted to win, but even staying in touch would be something. At least in the RWC they played well, this time they just pitched up.

[Slick]

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

I hate PoM as much as everyone, talking of refereeing decisions when he injured Hogg with a late nasty hit and got off with it still annoys me... But it's a fair enough post? He's not punching down? He wants to the villain.

I don't actually remember any particular booing of him either

[SaintK]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

How many matches in a row is it now that you've beaten England

[charltom]

Completely agree.

Pinching Franco buggers what little development pipeline we have, and no one can understand ROG. Neinaber?

RoG also wouldn't take the job..

We said the same about Townsend when he took the Scotland job and Glasgow hired Dave Rennie one of the better coaches going.

We don't have the players to beat Ireland, they are too big, too powerful, too accurate and too clinical. Leinster vs Glasgow in a big game would be a similar result sadly.

Yeah (re ROG), during his half-time and post-match punditry, I was thinking he has absolutely no respect for Scottish rugby. Would be very hard to convince him to consider the job if offered. Also, he has a surprisingly annoying voice (I've never heard him speak before). Up there with Sean Kelly (cycling on Eurosport). Makes your ears bleed.

It does. But he sounded surprisingly self deprecating at one point!

[Slick]

What a depressing day. But in retrospect was it going to be any different with that front 5? To my mind you can carry one or two journeymen in your front 5, but both locks? Has anyone got any stats for their carrying meters? We really need 3 or 4 of the lock prospects to come good as these two teddy bears need to be put out to pasture internationally.

The other issue is coaching. We simply look nowhere near as well drilled as the Irish team. They were like robots, nothing dramatic just relentless, percentage rugby and we seemed utterly clueless in response, despite the fact that it happens almost every time we play them. This was not a surprise, but yet the players seems entirely unprepared for it.

Then mentally. Last year in Dublin was the first time I felt the pack was "on it" and even then it was chiefly in the destructive sense rather than creating anything but boy did we miss Andy Christie, seeing Ritchie coming on summed it up. He has been ineffective against Ireland for years, totally the wrong sort of player that just gets manhandled by them.

It's a what-if of course, but I do wonder what that team with Andy Christie for M Fagerson, Max Williamson for Johnny Gray, Dylan Richardson for Dave Cherry and Tuipolotu would have performed. We needed to up the physciality to even compete and far too many of that team are so passive.

At least we'll got into the Calcutta Cup match as massive, massive underdogs.

How many matches in a row is it now that you've beaten England

No idea mate, haven't been counting

[Yr Alban]

It’s hardly surprising if ROG doesn’t respect us. In the 6N era, we have faced Ireland 33 times. We have won 6 times and they have won all the rest. In most of those games we have gone down without firing a shot, which is why we’re all so pissed off. Sexton was supposed to have never lost to a Scottish team at either club or international level in his whole career. It wasn’t quite true - he lost a club match very early on - but it was pretty close. Ireland think we’re a joke, and little wonder. We roll over meekly time and again.

[I like neeps]

To be fair to Townsend, everyone always knows how Ireland and Leinster will play. But the only ones who come close to stopping them are the bigger teams who can beat them up a bit...

Ireland will likely win the six nations, they're just a good bit better than we are. Bigger, stronger, faster, more accurate. And when you're bigger, stronger, faster, and better you get the referee giving you the 60/40s... It's been that way for a while.

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

I know stopping them is a challenge, my issue is that we rarely even compete with them. I feel like many other lesser teams push them much harder than we seem to. It is entirely predictable what they will come to do, there is no need for us to be predictable - we needed to show something different. The Ireland game has become an annual barometer for our progression - or rather lack of progression. In 2024 we at least showed some fight, this year normal service was resumed. Of course we wanted to win, but even staying in touch would be something. At least in the RWC they played well, this time they just pitched up.

I think that you have to place Scotland in the Australia, Argentina, England, Italy camp and Ireland usually see them off without too much challenge. I know England beat them a few times but that's because England do have a lot of big boys and just don't put it together as they really should.

Ireland are just significantly better than Scotland. I don't think that firing a new coach would change much. I wouldn't mind firing Toonie and putting Smith, Cheika, Schmidt in but won't change a huge amount. Being a Scotland fan will always mean losing more often than not in big games.

[Tichtheid]

Yep - agreed. Stopping them is a big ask for any team. The problem is that we hardly ever vary our game plan. We know they will bully us up front and deny our backs oxygen, but we play as if we don’t. Last year was a welcome exception, but now we’ve reverted to type and made it all too easy for them again. I’m so tired of watching the same game and the same inevitable defeat.

As for POM - if punching down makes him feel like a big man, let him. It makes him look like a graceless twat.

I know stopping them is a challenge, my issue is that we rarely even compete with them. I feel like many other lesser teams push them much harder than we seem to. It is entirely predictable what they will come to do, there is no need for us to be predictable - we needed to show something different. The Ireland game has become an annual barometer for our progression - or rather lack of progression. In 2024 we at least showed some fight, this year normal service was resumed. Of course we wanted to win, but even staying in touch would be something. At least in the RWC they played well, this time they just pitched up.

I think that you have to place Scotland in the Australia, Argentina, England, Italy camp and Ireland usually see them off without too much challenge. I know England beat them a few times but that's because England do have a lot of big boys and just don't put it together as they really should.

Ireland are just significantly better than Scotland. I don't think that firing a new coach would change much. I wouldn't mind firing Toonie and putting Smith, Cheika, Schmidt in but won't change a huge amount. Being a Scotland fan will always mean losing more often than not in big games.

I agree with neeps here, I don’t remember a time when we ever could realistically be confident against the top two sides in the world.

It probably grates with Ireland because we grew up pumping them home and away but they have really got the swing of professional rugby, we are still playing catch up.

Someone with a better memory than me will be able to tell me, our best team is Glasgow, when was the last time they beat Leinster in a proper knock out game where both sides fielded first choice 23s?

[charltom]

I’m not going to say that the most successful teams are successful because they are the best at cheating. That would be unfair, as they also have lots of great players and are very well coached. But there is a correlation there. If your forwards can effectively slow the ball at every breakdown, and your backs can start their rush defence a yard or two offside, and they consistently get away with it, then it’s going to give you an edge in every game, and we know that Test rugby is a game of fine margins.

For the benefit of any interlopers, Scotland lost yesterday because we didn’t turn up, not because of the ref. But how well you play the ref really shouldn’t be a part of the game.

You are being too kind to the cheats here, and to those who coach them 5o cheat.

[Punter15]

It’s hardly surprising if ROG doesn’t respect us. In the 6N era, we have faced Ireland 33 times. We have won 6 times and they have won all the rest. In most of those games we have gone down without firing a shot, which is why we’re all so pissed off. Sexton was supposed to have never lost to a Scottish team at either club or international level in his whole career. It wasn’t quite true - he lost a club match very early on - but it was pretty close. Ireland think we’re a joke, and little wonder. We roll over meekly time and again.

And yet they hate us and think we don’t respect them. Eejits.

[Yr Alban]

I’m not going to say that the most successful teams are successful because they are the best at cheating. That would be unfair, as they also have lots of great players and are very well coached. But there is a correlation there. If your forwards can effectively slow the ball at every breakdown, and your backs can start their rush defence a yard or two offside, and they consistently get away with it, then it’s going to give you an edge in every game, and we know that Test rugby is a game of fine margins.

For the benefit of any interlopers, Scotland lost yesterday because we didn’t turn up, not because of the ref. But how well you play the ref really shouldn’t be a part of the game.

You are being too kind to the cheats here, and to those who coach them 5o cheat.

Maybe I am, but I want to be clear that Scotland would still have lost yesterday if the ref had been prepared to penalise Ireland’s discretions more.

Whoever it was said earlier that it rankles we can’t beat Ireland because we used to pump them every year, damn straight it does. But even when we pumped them, they would turn up full of fire and fight us for every yard. If we did that v Ireland every year and still lost, it would be a lot easier to take.

[topofthemoon]

I know stopping them is a challenge, my issue is that we rarely even compete with them. I feel like many other lesser teams push them much harder than we seem to. It is entirely predictable what they will come to do, there is no need for us to be predictable - we needed to show something different. The Ireland game has become an annual barometer for our progression - or rather lack of progression. In 2024 we at least showed some fight, this year normal service was resumed. Of course we wanted to win, but even staying in touch would be something. At least in the RWC they played well, this time they just pitched up.

I think that you have to place Scotland in the Australia, Argentina, England, Italy camp and Ireland usually see them off without too much challenge. I know England beat them a few times but that's because England do have a lot of big boys and just don't put it together as they really should.

Ireland are just significantly better than Scotland. I don't think that firing a new coach would change much. I wouldn't mind firing Toonie and putting Smith, Cheika, Schmidt in but won't change a huge amount. Being a Scotland fan will always mean losing more often than not in big games.

I agree with neeps here, I don’t remember a time when we ever could realistically be confident against the top two sides in the world.

It probably grates with Ireland because we grew up pumping them home and away but they have really got the swing of professional rugby, we are still playing catch up.

Someone with a better memory than me will be able to tell me, our best team is Glasgow, when was the last time they beat Leinster in a proper knock out game where both sides fielded first choice 23s?

Glasgow have never beaten Leinster in a knockout game. Johnny Sexton won his last 25 matches in a row against Scottish teams from October 2011 to October 2023 so realistically, any regular season league wins Glasgow (or Edinburgh) had in that time weren't against a full strength Leinster.

[topofthemoon]

Maybe useful to take the history with a particular nation out of it. Would the expectation be the same against South Africa? Or New Zealand of a few years ago?

Ireland currently have over 90 points in the world rankings. Across the 22 years that the rankings have existed for, Scotland have only twice beaten a team that has > 90 points.

Once was last summer when France sent a B team to Murrayfield for an RWC warm-up. The other was the Calcutta Cup match against England in 2018.

[Slick]

Maybe useful to take the history with a particular nation out of it. Would the expectation be the same against South Africa? Or New Zealand of a few years ago?

Ireland currently have over 90 points in the world rankings. Across the 22 years that the rankings have existed for, Scotland have only twice beaten a team that has > 90 points.

Once was last summer when France sent a B team to Murrayfield for an RWC warm-up. The other was the Calcutta Cup match against England in 2018.

I’ll settle for that

[AF73]

I don't remotely mean to suggest the dynamic environment is any sort of excuse. When it comes to backlines going offside, that's something the useless lot running the touchlines should police. I also completely agree with you re the 'keeping the game flowing' garbage. That's definitely where much of the unfairness stems from, not least because it too often seems to boil down to indulging the side that appears to have the ascendancy. I was nonetheless struck by how often on Sunday I noted that when mayhem and blatant cheating was going on at and around White's feet, the referee was actually looking away from it for some other possible infarction of the laws.

Y Alban is also correct in both respects. A side pushing things and getting away with it will have an advantage. And yes, Scotland lost because we didn't show, not because of any chicanery by Ireland.

Personally I think it would be nice, possibly as a trial, just once, to see a referee just whistle this sort of thing into oblivion and see what happens.

On the other hand, I can already hear Nigel bloviating about keeping the game flowing and the kiwis pressing for law changes to legalise whatever dark arts might under scrutiny. Best just suck it up I suppose, and look ahead to two weeks' time.

It's a nice idea but I think you neatly answered your own question with your closing paragraph.
If the refs strictly applied the laws it's not the players who would be required to change. The outcry from players, coaches, media et al about the "spectacle" being ruined would fall back on the refs as being the ones at fault and required to change. Like most laws, it will be applied strictly at first (or out of the blue) to check a box....usually against a Scottish team then forgotten about.

[Tichtheid]

I think that you have to place Scotland in the Australia, Argentina, England, Italy camp and Ireland usually see them off without too much challenge. I know England beat them a few times but that's because England do have a lot of big boys and just don't put it together as they really should.

Ireland are just significantly better than Scotland. I don't think that firing a new coach would change much. I wouldn't mind firing Toonie and putting Smith, Cheika, Schmidt in but won't change a huge amount. Being a Scotland fan will always mean losing more often than not in big games.

I agree with neeps here, I don’t remember a time when we ever could realistically be confident against the top two sides in the world.

It probably grates with Ireland because we grew up pumping them home and away but they have really got the swing of professional rugby, we are still playing catch up.

Someone with a better memory than me will be able to tell me, our best team is Glasgow, when was the last time they beat Leinster in a proper knock out game where both sides fielded first choice 23s?

Glasgow have never beaten Leinster in a knockout game. Johnny Sexton won his last 25 matches in a row against Scottish teams from October 2011 to October 2023 so realistically, any regular season league wins Glasgow (or Edinburgh) had in that time weren't against a full strength Leinster.

Soz, I’ve just seen that you’d previously answered that question elsewhere.

As an aside, I’ve just remembered my personal highlight of the match, you could hear on the tv one of our players shout, “Fucking hit it”
and Andrew Cotter says, “Wise words from one of the forwards there”

[KingBlairhorn]

He just can't help himself.

He’s a coward, he won’t ever post something like that about England because a) the media would tear him a new one and he’s really a delicate little flower and b) he doesn’t want to jeopardise his chance at getting the English punditry pound when he retires. He’s a pantomime villain, nothing more.

[Biffer]

He just can't help himself.

He’s a coward, he won’t ever post something like that about England because a) the media would tear him a new one and he’s really a delicate little flower and b) he doesn’t want to jeopardise his chance at getting the English punditry pound when he retires. He’s a pantomime villain, nothing more.

He's more than a panto villain, he goes past the line of playing on the edge and is dirty, and a cheat.

[Yeeb]

You jocks are too morose and give them too much credit , you have more 1/4 final wins than them when it matters . You need to find a new Buster white who can smash them bro, and they have better imports than you too which is the major difference.

[Yr Alban]

Finn and Darcy both out for the England game, apparently. Which gives us the chance to get our excuses in early.

[Jockaline]

Finn and Darcy both out for the England game, apparently. Which gives us the chance to get our excuses in early.

:( So who should step in Jordon, and maybe Horne for his kicking?

[GrahamWa]

Finn and Darcy both out for the England game, apparently. Which gives us the chance to get our excuses in early.

:( So who should step in Jordon, and maybe Horne for his kicking?

If they are both on RTP protocols, its a bit early given the game is not for another 11 days. Accumulated concussions maybe?