President Trump and US politics catchall

[GuLi]

Timothy Snyder offers a calm and measured response to the shitshow in the WH

https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-fail ... dium=email

Snyder's analysis of the shortfalls of the path those sh*tstains have chosen is convincing, all the more because all his points are mostly obvious.
Consequently, why O f*ing why ? Is it really possible that there isn't a single mature, level-headed, informed enough adviser in their entourage anymore ? Or that the few remaining sane voices are drowned by the braying mob (Hegseth ! Patel ! Noem ! )? Even a Bolton is appalled, ffs. The word "treason" is already there or thereabout in the opinions of some very hard right commentators.
I mean, the only two possible outcomes of their vile behaviour (ceasefire with zero guarantee and leaving Ukraine and Europe on their own) are so aligned with Putin's interests, with not that much in them for the US or even Drumpf himself, I found myself wondering if there was something in the kompromat theory after all.
The whole mess is doing my head in, it's scary.

[I like neeps]

Maybe it's too simplistic to say, but time for the world to stop leaning so much on America? Is that possible? Just a few million votes one way or the other in a country with 350m (1/3-ish of those eligible didn't bother?), swings the path of world politics.

Can Europe and friends ramp things up to fill the gaps, and even launch themselves forward?

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

[sockwithaticket]

Timothy Snyder offers a calm and measured response to the shitshow in the WH

https://snyder.substack.com/p/five-fail ... dium=email

Snyder's analysis of the shortfalls of the path those sh*tstains have chosen is convincing, all the more because all his points are mostly obvious.
Consequently, why O f*ing why ? Is it really possible that there isn't a single mature, level-headed, informed enough adviser in their entourage anymore ? Or that the few remaining sane voices are drowned by the braying mob (Hegseth ! Patel ! Noem ! )? Even a Bolton is appalled, ffs. The word "treason" is already there or thereabout in the opinions of some very hard right commentators.
I mean, the only two possible outcomes of their vile behaviour (ceasefire with zero guarantee and leaving Ukraine and Europe on their own) are so aligned with Putin's interests, with not that much in them for the US or even Drumpf himself, I found myself wondering if there was something in the kompromat theory after all.
The whole mess is doing my head in, it's scary.

First time around Trump still needed the Republican party and its machinery which still contained a number of (somewhat) normal Republicans. He also wasn't particularly interested in being POTUS. He liked the status trappings, but had no desire to govern and so was content to be suggested cabinet members whom the Republicans hoped would be 'adults in the room'. As we know, the adults in the room did a lot to curb his most impulsive and braindead ideas, which the animated fat suit hated because he doesn't like being told no.

With the Republican party having transformed into the MAGA party, there are no more 'adults in the room', such people have either left, been moved out of the way or shown themselves to be more interested in power and progression than the state of their party. They can't get elected without Trump's favour, they can't get his favour without being as conspicuously base and bigoted as he is or giving his arse a right tonguing. He might not be any more interested in governing than he was (how many days spent golfing already and charging the Secret Service staying at Mar A Largo to the government credit card), but he also will not be told no or circumvented like he was last time and he has free reign to pick whoever he wants, so you end up with a collection of loons and/or sycophants.

[_Os_]

Maybe it's too simplistic to say, but time for the world to stop leaning so much on America? Is that possible? Just a few million votes one way or the other in a country with 350m (1/3-ish of those eligible didn't bother?), swings the path of world politics.

Can Europe and friends ramp things up to fill the gaps, and even launch themselves forward?

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

There's no indication Putin stops at Ukraine. If there was a way for Europe to back out of the entire thing they would've. It's not just Ukraine which has been led up the garden path.

Trump has done immense damage. He is beyond reason and irrational, both Macron and Starmer corrected him on his $350bn figure, then he again repeated it too Zelensky who was so shouted down by that point he remained silent. Trump's biggest failing is he has displayed weakness, what happened yesterday was the latest display of weakness he mistakes for strength. His commitment to article 5 looks limited at best, the nuclear deterrent isn't credible now. He likes Putin and gets on well with him.

Zelensky is a moderate, he wanted peace before the full scale invasion and didn't even mobilise his troops before the invasion because he was so committed to that. He's a Russian speaker and ethnic Jew, he's not a diehard Ukrainian nationalist. As you discovered at the talk, there's Ukrainians happy to go to the last Ukrainian too (not convinced Zelensky is one of those). Zelensky reached the position of giving up land to Russia and resources to the US, but Trump wanted rump Ukraine to remain unprotected. How likely is it Zelensky could sell that to Ukrainians? Would Putin accept and definitely not have another go?

Because the US has shifted all the focus onto Zelensky and Ukraine, not many people are asking "would Putin ever accept any of these deals?". The answer is he may of if he had been forced to negotiate rather than immediately given everything and shown that the US is weak. Putin now knows exactly what the US commitment to Europe is. Every time they meet Trump, Russia's best analysts are there with Putin mining him and plugging that into their scenario planning. To a certain type of man weakness is extremely provocative, Putin isn't agreeing to anything now.

Russia is now running a war economy and all in has maybe around 1.5m men under arms (active and those it can call on). If Russia isn't bled in Ukraine the gamble is they come off a war footing and don't try again. The additional gamble would be if they go again it's in Ukraine. I know of no wargame where the Baltics survive a Russian invasion even with US forces involved.

I may make a bigger post/s about this on the other thread. But because the nuclear deterrent now isn't credible (indeed there's doubt about any US support) the worst case scenario now ends in a nuclear exchange in central/eastern Europe. The best case is the one Trump just rejected and we don't even know if Putin would accept.

[Paddington Bear]

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

Absolutely this, sadly we seem to have no shortage of politicians whose only war reference points are the Second World war and Star Wars

[Margin__Walker]

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

Of course wars end in negotiation.

There's negotiation and then there's complete capitulation. Ukraine isn't realistically after it's lost land. They know that's not on the table. Russia is advancing. Ukraine will be after a settlement that doesn't involve surrendering much more land (which is what Russia will demand). That and some kind of mechanism in place to ensure Russia doesn't just roll in again in a few months.

That's the issue.

[Paddington Bear]

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

There's no indication Putin stops at Ukraine. If there was a way for Europe to back out of the entire thing they would've. It's not just Ukraine which has been led up the garden path.

Trump has done immense damage. He is beyond reason and irrational, both Macron and Starmer corrected him on his $350bn figure, then he again repeated it too Zelensky who was so shouted down by that point he remained silent. Trump's biggest failing is he has displayed weakness, what happened yesterday was the latest display of weakness he mistakes for strength. His commitment to article 5 looks limited at best, the nuclear deterrent isn't credible now. He likes Putin and gets on well with him.

Zelensky is a moderate, he wanted peace before the full scale invasion and didn't even mobilise his troops before the invasion because he was so committed to that. He's a Russian speaker and ethnic Jew, he's not a diehard Ukrainian nationalist. As you discovered at the talk, there's Ukrainians happy to go to the last Ukrainian too (not convinced Zelensky is one of those). Zelensky reached the position of giving up land to Russia and resources to the US, but Trump wanted rump Ukraine to remain unprotected. How likely is it Zelensky could sell that to Ukrainians? Would Putin accept and definitely not have another go?

Because the US has shifted all the focus onto Zelensky and Ukraine, not many people are asking "would Putin ever accept any of these deals?". The answer is he may of if he had been forced to negotiate rather than immediately given everything and shown that the US is weak. Putin now knows exactly what the US commitment to Europe is. Every time they meet Trump, Russia's best analysts are there with Putin mining him and plugging that into their scenario planning. To a certain type of man weakness is extremely provocative, Putin isn't agreeing to anything now.

Russia is now running a war economy and all in has maybe around 1.5m men under arms (active and those it can call on). If Russia isn't bled in Ukraine the gamble is they come off a war footing and don't try again. The additional gamble would be if they go again it's in Ukraine. I know of no wargame where the Baltics survive a Russian invasion even with US forces involved.

I may make a bigger post/s about this on the other thread. But because the nuclear deterrent now isn't credible (indeed there's doubt about any US support) the worst case scenario now ends in a nuclear exchange in central/eastern Europe. The best case is the one Trump just rejected and we don't even know if Putin would accept.

I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying, the question is what’s your solution? Europe does not have the defence industry to keep Ukraine in this fight. We don’t have the militaries to hold a Ukrainian rump. Without American help the Ukrainian military is in serious danger of a rapid collapse that gives Russia vast gains suddenly (the parallel that keeps crossing my mind is the Germany Army at the end of the First World War). We’re in no position to bleed the Russians

[_Os_]

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

There's no indication Putin stops at Ukraine. If there was a way for Europe to back out of the entire thing they would've. It's not just Ukraine which has been led up the garden path.

Trump has done immense damage. He is beyond reason and irrational, both Macron and Starmer corrected him on his $350bn figure, then he again repeated it too Zelensky who was so shouted down by that point he remained silent. Trump's biggest failing is he has displayed weakness, what happened yesterday was the latest display of weakness he mistakes for strength. His commitment to article 5 looks limited at best, the nuclear deterrent isn't credible now. He likes Putin and gets on well with him.

Zelensky is a moderate, he wanted peace before the full scale invasion and didn't even mobilise his troops before the invasion because he was so committed to that. He's a Russian speaker and ethnic Jew, he's not a diehard Ukrainian nationalist. As you discovered at the talk, there's Ukrainians happy to go to the last Ukrainian too (not convinced Zelensky is one of those). Zelensky reached the position of giving up land to Russia and resources to the US, but Trump wanted rump Ukraine to remain unprotected. How likely is it Zelensky could sell that to Ukrainians? Would Putin accept and definitely not have another go?

Because the US has shifted all the focus onto Zelensky and Ukraine, not many people are asking "would Putin ever accept any of these deals?". The answer is he may of if he had been forced to negotiate rather than immediately given everything and shown that the US is weak. Putin now knows exactly what the US commitment to Europe is. Every time they meet Trump, Russia's best analysts are there with Putin mining him and plugging that into their scenario planning. To a certain type of man weakness is extremely provocative, Putin isn't agreeing to anything now.

Russia is now running a war economy and all in has maybe around 1.5m men under arms (active and those it can call on). If Russia isn't bled in Ukraine the gamble is they come off a war footing and don't try again. The additional gamble would be if they go again it's in Ukraine. I know of no wargame where the Baltics survive a Russian invasion even with US forces involved.

I may make a bigger post/s about this on the other thread. But because the nuclear deterrent now isn't credible (indeed there's doubt about any US support) the worst case scenario now ends in a nuclear exchange in central/eastern Europe. The best case is the one Trump just rejected and we don't even know if Putin would accept.

I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying, the question is what’s your solution? Europe does not have the defence industry to keep Ukraine in this fight. We don’t have the militaries to hold a Ukrainian rump. Without American help the Ukrainian military is in serious danger of a rapid collapse that gives Russia vast gains suddenly (the parallel that keeps crossing my mind is the Germany Army at the end of the First World War). We’re in no position to bleed the Russians

In the UK at least there are people with power aware of the real situation, you can tell that by what some people in the media are saying who are connected. It's definitely not all idiots who think this is WW2.

As I posted on the other thread back in November the best case was (still is) Ukraine giving up land, conflict termination (not a frozen conflict), and Finlandisation. Zelensky I think could still get Ukraine to that point, if Zelensky is forced out someone more moderate does not replace him. Trump has somehow got into some mad conversation over minerals, getting $350bn and even making money on that and getting $500bn (Ukraine's gdp is $170bn), his admiration of Putin, and his refusal to give Zelensky anything because of his personal beef. Europe will take any deal capable of working. Putin who knows, but I suspect it's all a bit pointless and he declines any deal.

There's no option but to continuously keep trying with talks though. It'll always be a worthwhile option. Maybe one side changes their mind.

Being totally cold about it, Europe needs minimum two years to prepare. Which means European NATO maintaining/increasing support (what the London summit will probably end up being about). Full mobilisation in Ukraine, prepping Ukraine for Stalingrad level urban fighting and partisan warfare. Their current ratio is about 7 Russians killed for every 1 Ukrainian, which does give them a chance. Europe can start trying to re-establish a nuclear deterrent, Macron has offered France's weapons as a European nuclear umbrella (this would be a change in French doctrine), that will not be enough they need to demonstrate capability through live testing too.

[dpedin]

Trumps view of the world is short term. He has hated Zelensky since days of Trump being caught trying to blackmail/coerce Ukraine around investigating Biden/Hunter Biden issue in 2019, he thinks Zelensky caused the problems and has been trying to get his own back ever since. It has been a personal issue for him. Also Zelensky refused to bend over and take it up the arse by signing the US 'deal' to allow his country to be raped economically by Trump and his big business goons. Trump is furious that someone, especially Zelensky, has basically told him 'NO' and dared to start serious negotiations around the proposed deal. Trump feels this is making him look 'small' in front of Putin and he probably boasted to Putin it would be a walk in the park and they could divi up the spoils afterwards. It is perfectly clear that Trump and Putin have an agreed plan for Ukraine and part of that is to get rid of Zelensky hence the joint calls for elections in Ukraine, calling him a Dictator and now the staged White House pile in to make him look small. The end point of all this will be Trump saying he will only do business with Ukraine if they get rid of Zelensky. He will get his way, a puppet will be installed in Ukraine and a deal, which will essentially be a death warrant for Ukraine, will be signed.

However Putin is playing the long game and knows how to play Trump and his inexperienced, crazed and dumb team. He is quite happy to let the US get their deal with Ukraine, it is small fry in the bigger game and the links between the billionaires and Russian oligarchs is pretty clear now anyway. Putin is expansionist and is keen to develop a precedent of the US stepping back from any military involvement on Eastern Europe, allowing Russia free rein to step up their plans to move into surrounding countries with impunity. Trump and his bunch of mobsters, crooks, big Tech and religious zealots dont give a shit about Eastern Europe other than opening up more markets to make money for them. Putin is happy to let Trump and his goons cause untold damage to the US infrastructures and world politics in order to create chaos which will be his open door to further invasions.

Has Putin some kompromat on Trump/Krasnov? Almost certainly. The work going on behind the scenes to destabilize the US government systems, structures and military capability is scary and is happening at pace and in the face of legal opposition from the courts. It is all happening in front of our eyes!

Were the meetings this week a staged attempt to attack Zelensky, destabilize European support for Ukraine and create rifts in the EU/Euro alliance? Almost certainly, although crudely planned and plainly transparent. If anything it has mobilized Europe in the same way everyone steps in when the playground bully takes things too far.

The end game for the likes of Bannon, Miller, Vance, Vought and the rest of the Heritage Foundation 2025 authors and the likes of Musk, Zuckerberg, et al is a completely unregulated social and business world where national boundaries don't really exist for businesses, money flows around the world tax free controlled by them and only the fittest survive. Their world view is more aligned with Putins than it is with the American Dream and that is why they admire and are quite happy to get into bed with the Dictators of this world. They will deregulate like mad in the US and strip away almost all of the protections people have against the impact of big business, profit at all cost literally! They hate the EU in spades because it is essentially more successful in regulating them and controlling their impact - the Tech companies will do everything in their power to stop the EU regulating them hence their support for Trump. Meanwhile Trump doesn't give a shit about anything else as long as he is rich and the President, or as Putin and the others see him, a useful, controllable and time limited puppet!

This is only the start of a very difficult and dark period for us all.

[Wyndham Upalot]

I'm surprised the wotsit-coloured cunt isn't proudly wearing one of these:

[Blackmac]

Macron was derided by other European leaders for promoting this very approach for years. Not so much derision nowadays.

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

[Uncle fester]

. Russia is advancing.

Please stop uncritically repeating russian propaganda.

[Uncle fester]

US will have a new civil war within our lifetimes. That's my prediction.

North should have finished the job after the first war.

[Margin__Walker]

. Russia is advancing.

Please stop uncritically repeating russian propaganda.

?

They are. I didn't say quickly or cheaply

[salanya]

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

I agree it's the most likely outcome.
There will need to be negotiations and Putin isn't going to give up all of the Ukrainian lands. Unfair as it is, Ukraine will probably have to concede some loss of land.

However, these are the early days of the negotiations, and you don't want to start from a weak position that you're likely have to concede considerable lands. Especially not in front of the public media, and whilst in conversation with what's supposed to be an ally.

It's called diplomacy, a concept Trump is unfamiliar with. Zelensky probably got baited into saying too much, but then he is leading a country at war.
For Trump and Vance there is no excuse.

[Margin__Walker]

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

Pretty sure he accepted that a long time ago

[Biffer]

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

Pretty sure he accepted that a long time ago

Yeah. But the attitude that some people here have that it should be his starting point for negotiations, and then give up more, is fucking stupid. His starting point is ‘we want our territory’. Then you give up stuff as the other side does, in his case, territorial guarantees and external support of that. Anyone who thinks Russia giving guarantees without any external enforcement is a fucking idiot.

[Firewater]

Too late now. A modest increase in defence spending particularly around industry in 2014 followed by a more substantial boost in 2022 may have given us the chance to run a different course. Plus of course a weaning or never being so beholden to Russian energy in the first place. From where we are now we can give Ukraine nothing but false hope, nothing but empty encouragement to send more men to die.

What Trump has done is a shameful abandonment of a nation that has shown so much courage and dignity in the face of unspeakable atrocities, but it’s too easy to pretend it is all his fault when we have done nearly nothing to allow another path to be taken bar offer empty words. I remember listening to an Indian general as Ukraine invaded tell a Ukrainian that the west would fight to the last Ukrainian, clearly correct then and clearly correct now.

Ukraine shoulders some responsibility as well. I went to a talk by a senior member of their elite this week who had the following solutions:

1. Britain to lead a task force of the Baltic, Scandis and Benelux in direct war with Russia
2. France to pile in once the front is stabilised
3. Risk of nuclear war to be ignored as ‘it won’t happen’
4. Peace to come from Ukraine reclaiming all occupied territory and Russia to be dismembered into 100 (genuinely) states along ethnic lines.

They have of course been led up the garden path but still having any dream of peace that doesn’t involve a serious think about what territory they can give up is sadly totally delusional and a lot of us left this talk very disillusioned. Can’t help but feel a total collapse is coming

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

[Jockaline]

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

[I like neeps]

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Potentially a European war but with the US and China firmly on the side lines we aren't near world war 3.

And even then Russia's army isn't very strong.

[tc27]

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

It's a remarkable achievement of Russian misinformation that anyone thinks this moronic viewpoint is credible.

[Jockaline]

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Potentially a European war but with the US and China firmly on the side lines we aren't near world war 3.

And even then Russia's army isn't very strong.

It seems to always start in Europe though, and while on the sidelines now ...

[Guy Smiley]

Are the Brexiteers part of Europe now?

[Slick]

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

It's a remarkable achievement of Russian misinformation that anyone thinks this moronic viewpoint is credible.

I’m presuming the bit about electing a lying showman was typed with an ironic grin. Sadly probably not

[TB63]

[Niegs]

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Speaking of, he didn't dodge some big questions in this like so many do these days, but explained things reasonably well.

[tc27]

Are the Brexiteers part of Europe now?

Unbelievably given the situation the EU wants to link closer security and defence ties to renegotiating access to UK fishing grounds.

I voted remain but in geopolitical terms we are way past tue Brexit era and this kinda thing needs to be stopped. I also think the worst thing for European defence would be to mesh in it the EUs structures.

[Biffer]

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Potentially a European war but with the US and China firmly on the side lines we aren't near world war 3.

And even then Russia's army isn't very strong.

If there was a major multi national war v Russia in Europe, China would definitely have a go at Taiwan.

[Punter15]

As much as Vance is a cock he is correct that most wars end by negotiation and Ukraine has neither the man power nor support to reclaim the lands Russia have who are now advancing daily. Europe does have to wake up a bit and realise that.

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

You are a fucking stupid cunt.

[Biffer]

This is looking more and more like the carve up of Poland by Hitler and Stalin. That ended well.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

This is looking more and more like the carve up of Poland by Hitler and Stalin. That ended well.

One hopes Ukraine can have some faith when one looks to Poland that that which was erased can be restored.

[Firewater]

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Even if he loses. And you have very low standards. One million dead and forcing people to fight and be killed. And a country destroyed and unlikely to exist soon.

He was a puppet of the MIC who sold his country out.

[Firewater]

I totally agree with this. Distasteful as it is Zelensky has to accept that he is in no position to negotiate that condition.

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

You are a fucking stupid cunt.

The stupid are those who believe the MIC media stories. This war is all about money and land. Not about big bad Russia and evil Putin. These are just stories for the very stupid

[Sandstorm]

Trump just gave Putin the green light to rebuild the USSR. After he’s defeated Ukraine then Georgia, Belarus, Estonia and Latvia are next.

Europe is fucked. I can see Trump sending weapons and aid to Moscow by 2027.

[Dogbert]

Can the State visit be changed so instead of Trump meeting Charlie & Camilla - he has an audience with Andrew - they seem to have a lot more in common

[Punter15]

The adults in Ukraine need to push Zelenskyy aside and then hold elections. Then work with Trump to try and save their country

My view it's too late. Ukraine will be divided up. This is the price paid for electing a lying comedian.

Zelensky should now find a safe country and enjoy his millions or billions. Just ensure though he has excellent security.

You are a fucking stupid cunt.

The stupid are those who believe the MIC media stories. This war is all about money and land. Not about big bad Russia and evil Putin. These are just stories for the very stupid

Looking at your posting record, you joined a couple of weeks ago just to spout this shit. Why don’t you fuck off to twitter and find some mates. That place is full of window lickers and AI PR bots, you’ll fit right in.

[I like neeps]

Zelensky is one of the great statesmen of our time, even if he loses, he has been incredibly strong and fought for his country with incredible dignity and perseverance. I'd be happy for my country to put taxes a lot up to save not just Ukraine, but for Europe future. We are at the start of a potential WW3 with Trump's betrayal and we need to realise this.

Potentially a European war but with the US and China firmly on the side lines we aren't near world war 3.

And even then Russia's army isn't very strong.

If there was a major multi national war v Russia in Europe, China would definitely have a go at Taiwan.

A lot of absolutes there considering the US is less concerned with Russia than it is China.

[Biffer]

You are a fucking stupid cunt.

The stupid are those who believe the MIC media stories. This war is all about money and land. Not about big bad Russia and evil Putin. These are just stories for the very stupid

Looking at your posting record, you joined a couple of weeks ago just to spout this shit. Why don’t you fuck off to twitter and find some mates. That place is full of window lickers and AI PR bots, you’ll fit right in.

I get that trolls get their kicks from winding people up and getting a reaction. But on a topic like this, for weird little men to get a kick out of deliberately winding up people about what could be existential threats to Europe, and the threat of a major war, just reflects on them and truly awful they are as people.

[Flockwitt]

. Russia is advancing.

Please stop uncritically repeating russian propaganda.

?

They are. I didn't say quickly or cheaply

They aren't. The last two weeks they've lost more territory than they've gained and are still taking unsustainable losses in the process.

And have you seen what the bulk of the attempted advances have been attempted with? Crap. Literally Soviet era tanks and IFV. BMP1s is the best Russia has been able to trot out along large sections of the front.

[tabascoboy]