DuPont Injury

[Blackmac]

I think this deserves a thread as we are in danger of losing one of the generational talents of our game and it should be discussed how it happened. Whilst I don't think there was any malice in it, it's clearly caused by the way the game still allows players to torpedo into breakdowns with little of no consequences. Beirne and Porter had absolutely no control yesterday and it's obvious that if players are crashing in low enough to avoid heads they are inevitably going to be hitting planted legs. There has been a number of significant injuries recently and surely we are at the stage where anyone entering the ruck is automatically penalised if they go off their feet. It's a contest over the ball not on top of the ball.

[Achahoish]

https://x.com/le_stade/status/1898386828174020984

https://x.com/Smallclone_/status/189839 ... xQ76g&s=19

[SaintK]

https://x.com/le_stade/status/1898386828174020984

https://x.com/Smallclone_/status/189839 ... xQ76g&s=19

Thanks
Clearly reckless

[Tichtheid]

PR saying he’ll be out for 6 to 8 months

I can’t say I was too impressed with Gardner’s “Players sometimes get injured” brush off to Alldritt

[robmatic]

Didn't we have refs penalising this kind of thing in the autumn for a couple of weeks before they forgot about it?

[Kawazaki]

That's a red card.

No ifs or buts or yellow with a review bullshit, it's a straight red card.

[Kawazaki]

Absolute fucking disgrace...

Ireland trio Tadhg Beirne, Andrew Porter and Calvin Nash face no further sanction for alleged foul play, despite being referred to the citing commissioner by France coach Fabien Galthié after his side’s comprehensive Guinness Six Nations victory in Dublin yesterday.
The furious coach took the highly unusual step after incidents that forced captain Antoine Dupont and centre Pierre Louis Barassi off, but The Irish Independent understands that, having reviewed the incidents in question, the citing commissioner decided not to pursue the matter further.

[sockwithaticket]

GIbson-Parke got away with what looked like an upright headclash on Barassi as well. Poor bloke got properly knocked around.

Reckon O'Mahoney has a case to answer for diving at a player's legs with no semblance of a legal tackle too. Certainly reckless and dangerous behaviour.

[Guy Smiley]

https://passport.world.rugby/laws-of-th ... foul-play/

9.20 Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.

a. A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

b. A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders.
Sanction: Penalty.

c. A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck or a maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

d. A player may remove the stealer/jackler from the tackle area by pushing/driving them backwards (including by grabbing the knee/leg), but must not roll, pull or twist an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty.

e. A player must not drop their weight onto an opponent or target the lower limbs.
Sanction: Penalty.

[OomStruisbaai]

Absolute fucking disgrace...

Ireland trio Tadhg Beirne, Andrew Porter and Calvin Nash face no further sanction for alleged foul play, despite being referred to the citing commissioner by France coach Fabien Galthié after his side’s comprehensive Guinness Six Nations victory in Dublin yesterday.
The furious coach took the highly unusual step after incidents that forced captain Antoine Dupont and centre Pierre Louis Barassi off, but The Irish Independent understands that, having reviewed the incidents in question, the citing commissioner decided not to pursue the matter further.

Fuckin disgrace? Just because it's du Pont? It's rugby, Happen a lot. Just bad luck.

[Blackmac]

https://passport.world.rugby/laws-of-th ... foul-play/

9.20 Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.

a. A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

b. A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders.
Sanction: Penalty.

c. A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck or a maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

d. A player may remove the stealer/jackler from the tackle area by pushing/driving them backwards (including by grabbing the knee/leg), but must not roll, pull or twist an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty.

e. A player must not drop their weight onto an opponent or target the lower limbs.
Sanction: Penalty.

Yep. Mostly totally ignored by modern day refs.

[Tichtheid]

https://passport.world.rugby/laws-of-th ... foul-play/

9.20 Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.

a. A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

b. A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders.
Sanction: Penalty.

c. A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck or a maul.
Sanction: Penalty.

d. A player may remove the stealer/jackler from the tackle area by pushing/driving them backwards (including by grabbing the knee/leg), but must not roll, pull or twist an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty.

e. A player must not drop their weight onto an opponent or target the lower limbs.
Sanction: Penalty.

Yep. Mostly totally ignored by modern day refs.

As I was saying on the match thread, a Welsh U20s player got a 20 minute red for the exact same thing on Friday night against Scotland

The inconsistency is the most galling thing about this

I don't think the Scottish player was injured, either

[Chilli2]

This was properly a targeted move on Du Ponts leg.

It should be a red with a long ban.

[Insane_Homer]

Certaining seemed more deliberate than not.

[PornDog]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

Not related to that incident, but in the first half both France and Ireland won turnovers after rucks had clearly formed. They both should have been penalties in the other direction for hands in the ruck. It does my fucking head in!

[Jim Lahey]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

This.

I'm in the camp that I don't think there was any intent but it was reckless. But I could point to 20 rucks per team per game where something similar happens, and thankfully no one gets injured. So it is really unfortunate that Dupont got injured, but I wouldn't be sending these two lads to the gallows as a result.

The ruck, the scrum and the offside line are the disgraces of modern rugby. All in need of a revamp and actual policing by the refs. Maybe the League lads got it right all those years ago . . . .

[Sandstorm]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

This.

I'm in the camp that I don't think there was any intent but it was reckless. But I could point to 20 rucks per team per game where something similar happens, and thankfully no one gets injured. So it is really unfortunate that Dupont got injured, but I wouldn't be sending these two lads to the gallows as a result.

The ruck, the scrum and the offside line are the disgraces of modern rugby. All in need of a revamp and actual policing by the refs. Maybe the League lads got it right all those years ago . . . .

Fuck off back to Leeds, you oik.

[Biffer]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

This.

I'm in the camp that I don't think there was any intent but it was reckless. But I could point to 20 rucks per team per game where something similar happens, and thankfully no one gets injured. So it is really unfortunate that Dupont got injured, but I wouldn't be sending these two lads to the gallows as a result.

The ruck, the scrum and the offside line are the disgraces of modern rugby. All in need of a revamp and actual policing by the refs. Maybe the League lads got it right all those years ago . . . .

Reckless is still a red card imo.

[Tichtheid]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

This.

I'm in the camp that I don't think there was any intent but it was reckless. But I could point to 20 rucks per team per game where something similar happens, and thankfully no one gets injured. So it is really unfortunate that Dupont got injured, but I wouldn't be sending these two lads to the gallows as a result.

The ruck, the scrum and the offside line are the disgraces of modern rugby. All in need of a revamp and actual policing by the refs. Maybe the League lads got it right all those years ago . . . .

Reckless is still a red card imo.

Sanctions under Law 9:20

e. A player must not drop their weight onto an opponent or target the lower limbs.

Low-end:
2 weeks/matches
Mid-range:
6 weeks/matches
Top-end:
10+ weeks/matches
Max:
52 weeks/matches

[Niegs]

The ruck has become an absolute shit show and needs to be radically overhauled. Rucks should be a contest of strength and technique, not mass and velocity. It should also be contested between players on their feet. This is very rarely the case and World Rugby are entirely responsible for it!
Both rucks and the tackle have become much more dangerous than they need to be with players not in control and it's all because WR have decided to do absolutely nothing (or pay lip service) to the issue!

Not related to that incident, but in the first half both France and Ireland won turnovers after rucks had clearly formed. They both should have been penalties in the other direction for hands in the ruck. It does my fucking head in!

I can't speak to those moments, but I felt like gritting my teeth this week working with some new players on rucking and stealing at the breakdown by saying they're allowed to keep playing the ball if they arrive first and THEN are engaged by an opponent.

It shouldn't be allowed. And a fellow coach with more of a 7s background was pushing getting super low, which involves shoulders below hips and stretching legs out. Both increase the risk of injury.

I think the game would be much better - if a bit 'messier', but I'd counter with 'less predictable' - if those things were enforced. And I'd add to it, that the attacking support player cannot anchor themselves to the tackled player, allowing defenders a good crack at a counter-ruck.

Watched some highlights this morning where the ref told a defending player not to go for a ball that wasn't protected at all by attacking players because a ruck presumably had been started by one attacker who then disappeared from the breakdown?

Let's have a TRUE contest for possession, which might actually bring more than 1 or 2 players into the tackle area and open space out wide.

[Uncle fester]

This was properly a targeted move on Du Ponts leg.

It should be a red with a long ban.

Seeing as his leg wasn't in that position a second before the contact, I doubt it very much.

[fishfoodie]

This was properly a targeted move on Du Ponts leg.

It should be a red with a long ban.

Seeing as his leg wasn't in that position a second before the contact, I doubt it very much.

Yes !

When Beirne made contact Dupont had one foot in the air; it looked like he was trying to widen his stance in the jackal, so the contact pushed him over & Beirne, now with Porter arriving behind ended up pushing thru Dupont, & he got injured because his feet weren't set when he was cleaned out.

Look at it at actual speed & tell me it was deliberate ! It was all over in a few tenths of second.

The citing team already reviewed it & told the French to PFO, so that's the Ref & ARs, the TMO & the citing team all saying it was legal & not worthy of a card.

I understand everyone being upset that Dupont was injured, because he's a generational talent; but it's a contact sport, & we see dozens of breakdowns like this every Pro match, & players are so big now, & so powerful that injuries are inevitable.

[OomStruisbaai]

Blame this on McAwe.

[Tichtheid]

This was properly a targeted move on Du Ponts leg.

It should be a red with a long ban.

Seeing as his leg wasn't in that position a second before the contact, I doubt it very much.

Yes !

When Beirne made contact Dupont had one foot in the air; it looked like he was trying to widen his stance in the jackal, so the contact pushed him over & Beirne, now with Porter arriving behind ended up pushing thru Dupont, & he got injured because his feet weren't set when he was cleaned out.

Look at it at actual speed & tell me it was deliberate ! It was all over in a few tenths of second.

The citing team already reviewed it & told the French to PFO, so that's the Ref & ARs, the TMO & the citing team all saying it was legal & not worthy of a card.

I understand everyone being upset that Dupont was injured, because he's a generational talent; but it's a contact sport, & we see dozens of breakdowns like this every Pro match, & players are so big now, & so powerful that injuries are inevitable.

and I understand Irish posters rushing to the defence of their players.

However, the fact remains that a Welsh U20 player was red carded for exactly the same offence on Friday night. The guy who was carded was the one who landed on the lower limb of the opponent. He had a team mate who drove into the ruck and exacerbated or perhaps even caused the incident.

My main gripe is with the fact that less than 24 hours apart the same incident was officiated completely differently.

[Uncle fester]

Seeing as his leg wasn't in that position a second before the contact, I doubt it very much.

Yes !

When Beirne made contact Dupont had one foot in the air; it looked like he was trying to widen his stance in the jackal, so the contact pushed him over & Beirne, now with Porter arriving behind ended up pushing thru Dupont, & he got injured because his feet weren't set when he was cleaned out.

Look at it at actual speed & tell me it was deliberate ! It was all over in a few tenths of second.

The citing team already reviewed it & told the French to PFO, so that's the Ref & ARs, the TMO & the citing team all saying it was legal & not worthy of a card.

I understand everyone being upset that Dupont was injured, because he's a generational talent; but it's a contact sport, & we see dozens of breakdowns like this every Pro match, & players are so big now, & so powerful that injuries are inevitable.

and I understand Irish posters rushing to the defence of their players.

However, the fact remains that a Welsh U20 player was red carded for exactly the same offence on Friday night. The guy who was carded was the one who landed on the lower limb of the opponent. He had a team mate who drove into the ruck and exacerbated or perhaps even caused the incident.

My main gripe is with the fact that less than 24 hours apart the same incident was officiated completely differently.

Got a clip to compare?

[Tichtheid]

Yes !

When Beirne made contact Dupont had one foot in the air; it looked like he was trying to widen his stance in the jackal, so the contact pushed him over & Beirne, now with Porter arriving behind ended up pushing thru Dupont, & he got injured because his feet weren't set when he was cleaned out.

Look at it at actual speed & tell me it was deliberate ! It was all over in a few tenths of second.

The citing team already reviewed it & told the French to PFO, so that's the Ref & ARs, the TMO & the citing team all saying it was legal & not worthy of a card.

I understand everyone being upset that Dupont was injured, because he's a generational talent; but it's a contact sport, & we see dozens of breakdowns like this every Pro match, & players are so big now, & so powerful that injuries are inevitable.

and I understand Irish posters rushing to the defence of their players.

However, the fact remains that a Welsh U20 player was red carded for exactly the same offence on Friday night. The guy who was carded was the one who landed on the lower limb of the opponent. He had a team mate who drove into the ruck and exacerbated or perhaps even caused the incident.

My main gripe is with the fact that less than 24 hours apart the same incident was officiated completely differently.

Got a clip to compare?

It's on the iPlayer, I don't know if it's available in Ireland - it's on 40 minutes on the video clock, 24:17 on the match clock.

It's called as a croc roll but the referee explains to the player that he sends off that he has landed on the lower limbs of the Scottish player with a high degree of danger and that is why he is being sent off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... nd-v-wales

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Every now and then we get incidents/reactions like this when the frankly unsafe manner in which players are allowed to enter into what passes for rucks spits out an unfortunate consequence.

But one need only reflect on Botha piling into Jones back in 2009 to realise here we are the better part of two decades later and not much has changed. So I don't imagine the authorities will be in a rush to do something now, even when an awful lot of people wonder if players arriving and binding and striving to stay on their feet wouldn't only be safer but produce a better game

[Uncle fester]

Not available here sorry. Had a look on xitter for the players name and there's no clips either. Plenty of unhappy Welsh fans calling it a rugby incident though.

[Kawazaki]

Every now and then we get incidents/reactions like this when the frankly unsafe manner in which players are allowed to enter into what passes for rucks spits out an unfortunate consequence.

But one need only reflect on Botha piling into Jones back in 2009 to realise here we are the better part of two decades later and not much has changed. So I don't imagine the authorities will be in a rush to do something now, even when an awful lot of people wonder if players arriving and binding and striving to stay on their feet wouldn't only be safer but produce a better game

The bind rule is actually completely unworkable if you think about it. If the bind rule were refereed to the letter of the law then players joining a ruck would, effectively, have to stop running to the ruck before they joined it. The sequence would be something like;

1. run to the ruck,
2. stop,
3. bind on to somebody already involved,
4. then restart their momentum to try and push opponents away.

In short, it would almost certainly be a complete waste of time to even bother trying.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And that's unworkable because?

And too why is having players exocet into what passes for a ruck preferable? One accepts it's an easy way to move mass, but this isn't just players having to bind, it's also players having to stay on their feet, so players would be easier to move.

There will for sure be lots of complaints from many players and coaches they can't possibly do it, for reasons. And those reasons will sound as just as sensible as if Donald Trump were setting out their case

[Kawazaki]

And that's unworkable because?

And too why is having players exocet into what passes for a ruck preferable? One accepts it's an easy way to move mass, but this isn't just players having to bind, it's also players having to stay on their feet, so players would be easier to move.

There will for sure be lots of complaints from many players and coaches they can't possibly do it, for reasons. And those reasons will sound as just as sensible as if Donald Trump were setting out their case

I assume you've played rugby before?

[PornDog]

Blame this on McAwe.

There's actually some truth to this. Well actually, himself, Smith and Waugh were just the original proponent once the then IRB decided that hands in the ruck should no longer be a penalty offence.

[Tichtheid]

Not available here sorry. Had a look on xitter for the players name and there's no clips either. Plenty of unhappy Welsh fans calling it a rugby incident though.

Well, yeah the Welsh fans are going to do that, it's normal. Just as the Irish fans are doing.

My point is that a very similar incident with the same outcome - player lands on lower limb of opponent at ruck - has been refereed in two completely different ways within 24 hours.

The one in the ScoWal game went through the video replay process and involved all the of the officials, it wasn't a one person decision.

[Sandstorm]

Blame this on McAwe.

There's actually some truth to this. Well actually, himself, Smith and Waugh were just the original proponent once the then IRB decided that hands in the ruck should no longer be a penalty offence.

Feet in a ruck used to legal, then they decided it was dangerous to actually ruck as a verb. Take away hands and what left? Texting?

[Tichtheid]

Blame this on McAwe.

There's actually some truth to this. Well actually, himself, Smith and Waugh were just the original proponent once the then IRB decided that hands in the ruck should no longer be a penalty offence.

Feet in a ruck used to legal, then they decided it was dangerous to actually ruck as a verb. Take away hands and what left? Texting?

You are still allowed to ruck the ball. You can place your foot over the ball and drag it backwards completely legally, just as has always been the case, same as in a scrum players can use their feet to move the ball backwards to the 8.

[Guy Smiley]

Not available here sorry. Had a look on xitter for the players name and there's no clips either. Plenty of unhappy Welsh fans calling it a rugby incident though.

Well, yeah the Welsh fans are going to do that, it's normal. Just as the Irish fans are doing.

My point is that a very similar incident with the same outcome - player lands on lower limb of opponent at ruck - has been refereed in two completely different ways within 24 hours.

The one in the ScoWal game went through the video replay process and involved all the of the officials, it wasn't a one person decision.

It's always been my preference that the onus has to be on the player to avoid the risk of injury, so the concept of mitigation should take less prominence than it does now. In my view, that would mean that in this case Beirne cops the penalty as the player making contact and Porter gets a talking to as the player to elevate the action. It's a bit of an ideal and hard to apply but going off your feet into rucks is clearly against the Laws of the game and if it takes losing a player to the bin to get it through guys' heads then fuck it, use the card.

[Uncle fester]

Not available here sorry. Had a look on xitter for the players name and there's no clips either. Plenty of unhappy Welsh fans calling it a rugby incident though.

Well, yeah the Welsh fans are going to do that, it's normal. Just as the Irish fans are doing.

My point is that a very similar incident with the same outcome - player lands on lower limb of opponent at ruck - has been refereed in two completely different ways within 24 hours.

The one in the ScoWal game went through the video replay process and involved all the of the officials, it wasn't a one person decision.

As did this one and it also got reviewed by the citing commissioner.

I have only your word that it is similar but I'd be surprised if it really is. For starters, Dupont moved his leg just before contact (something which got removed from one of the video clips at the start of the thread). Is that the case in the one from the 20's game?

[Tichtheid]

Not available here sorry. Had a look on xitter for the players name and there's no clips either. Plenty of unhappy Welsh fans calling it a rugby incident though.

Well, yeah the Welsh fans are going to do that, it's normal. Just as the Irish fans are doing.

My point is that a very similar incident with the same outcome - player lands on lower limb of opponent at ruck - has been refereed in two completely different ways within 24 hours.

The one in the ScoWal game went through the video replay process and involved all the of the officials, it wasn't a one person decision.

As did this one and it also got reviewed by the citing commissioner.

I have only your word that it is similar but I'd be surprised if it really is. For starters, Dupont moved his leg just before contact (something which got removed from one of the video clips at the start of the thread). Is that the case in the one from the 20's game?

You guys really suit up for these things, eh?

"only your word that it is similar" - really? Get stuffed. All players in a game of rugby are in a dynamic situation where their legs are moving before contact.

As I said, the referee in the U20s game said that the reason the Welsh player was being sent off was for landing on the lower limb of the Scottish player.

The videos I've seen of the Dupont one was very similar in that an Irish player landed on the opponent's lower limb and it was made worse by the actions of another Irish player coming in at force behind, just as it was in the Scotland Wales U20s game

[Sinkers]

I find myself referring to this every time this subject comes up:
There was a year when Super Rugby Aotearoa “trialed” refereeing the rucks to the letter of the laws - through the gate, the bind, on feet.
For the first two or three rounds there were a ridiculous number of penalties which had the pundits up in arms about ruining the spectacle or some such bolloxs.
Then the player started to adapt and the result was beautiful fast clean rucks and great rugby.
But by that time the pundits had had their way with their moaning, the trial not extended and IMO a great opportunity lost.

[Guy Smiley]

I have only your word that it is similar but I'd be surprised if it really is. For starters, Dupont moved his leg just before contact (something which got removed from one of the video clips at the start of the thread). Is that the case in the one from the 20's game?

I've looked at those two clips at the start of this thread a few times since you posted this Fester and yes, you can see DuPont shifting his leg. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant to mitigation in any way? to me if anything it makes the offense worse as he shifts slightly away from the contact point before and still gets hit.

The more I look at this the more pissed off I feel about it. Rugby and the refs should be protecting players from this sort of shit.