The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Slick]

Is Dempsey injured?

[Biffer]

Good old Toonie tombola!

Really not a fan of the 6-2 split

[Tichtheid]

Is Dempsey injured?

Hamstring, apparently

[Big D]

Good. Second row has been crying out for starting dynamism.

Ashman lucky.

[Yr Alban]

This is a good post

It is a good post. It is possible to be a contender at international level without having a superstar at 10. Wales did it with Biggar for a number of years - great player, reliable as hell, but not box office.

I'd give Biggar a better billing than that to be honest

All I’m saying about the guy is that he didn’t have Russell’s genius. Which very very few players do.

I actually recall saying early in Finn’s career that he was Scotland’s Carlos Spencer, and that like Spencer, he might have got fewer caps if Scotland had had a less flashy but more reliable Dan Biggar option.

[Jock42]

6-2 gives me the fear but probably not much option against a 7-1

[Paddington Bear]

Andy Christie is on the (enormous) bench for Sarries tomorrow vs Edinburgh. An astonishing turnaround given the sickening nature of his injury

[I like neeps]

Andy Christie is on the (enormous) bench for Sarries tomorrow vs Edinburgh. An astonishing turnaround given the sickening nature of his injury

Great news!

Ironic Sarries have a massive bench as Edinburgh have a smaller bench than usual as they have no players to pick from with injuries and the six nations/j6n.

[Big D]

Andy Christie is on the (enormous) bench for Sarries tomorrow vs Edinburgh. An astonishing turnaround given the sickening nature of his injury

Incredible news really.

[Biffer]

Andy Christie is on the (enormous) bench for Sarries tomorrow vs Edinburgh. An astonishing turnaround given the sickening nature of his injury

Great news!

Ironic Sarries have a massive bench as Edinburgh have a smaller bench than usual as they have no players to pick from with injuries and the six nations/j6n.

33 players unavailable for Edinburgh.

Great news about Christie

[Tichtheid]

Andy Christie is on the (enormous) bench for Sarries tomorrow vs Edinburgh. An astonishing turnaround given the sickening nature of his injury

Great news!

Ironic Sarries have a massive bench as Edinburgh have a smaller bench than usual as they have no players to pick from with injuries and the six nations/j6n.

33 players unavailable for Edinburgh.

Great news about Christie

To break that down, 11 are on the physio tables, 7 of whom would be in the first team squad.
13 on international duty.
9 on U20s international duty, Freddy Douglas would be in with a shout of the match day squad.

I'll echo the sentiment on Onyeama-Christie, there were real fears that it would be the end of his career, it's fantastic that he's back playing already

[SaintK]

Great news!

Ironic Sarries have a massive bench as Edinburgh have a smaller bench than usual as they have no players to pick from with injuries and the six nations/j6n.

33 players unavailable for Edinburgh.

Great news about Christie

To break that down, 11 are on the physio tables, 7 of whom would be in the first team squad.
13 on international duty.
9 on U20s international duty, Freddy Douglas would be in with a shout of the match day squad.

I'll echo the sentiment on Onyeama-Christie, there were real fears that it would be the end of his career, it's fantastic that he's back playing already

Sarries have a pretty decent record of getting seriously injured players back to playing sooner rather than later. Hope he goes well.

[KingBlairhorn]

I've said this a few times and been poo-pooed but I think this this morning from Tom English probably encapsulates my feelings on Scotland. I think we are a good side, but I also think at best in both the Toonie and Cotter eras that we have been the 3rd best side in the 6N and maybe 5th or 6th best in the world. I think we have been unlucky not to have been lucky (if that's not a paradox) in the way that say Wales were with their JamSlam tournament, but broadly I think we have got what we deserve. I don't think I have seen anyone disagree with the assessment below, in fact there was a conversation just last week about our pack not being good enough, but I think we find it hard to accept that we probably don't 'deserve' to win anything.

I think people have a slightly over-inflated sense of how good this team is. Yes, the backline is absolutely outstanding, but the pack is decent without being exceptional.

Is this Scotland team better than France? No. Is it better than Ireland? No. So why do some expect Scotland to win a championship when there are two squads that are by some distance better than them?

Third would be a good finish for Scotland, second would be excellent, first would be unbelievable. I just don't think they're good enough across the board.

I'm not sure what my point is or if I even have one, but I find myself both simultaneously down on being a Scotland supporter (in an it's not fair kind of way) but also accepting that this is it for us.

[Jock42]

I agree that both those teams are better than Scotland but that doesn't mean they can't beat them, just that it won't happen on a regular basis. I don't expect Scotland to win those games but believe they can. The main issue is the mentality of the team. They didn't believe they could beat Ireland this year and it showed, they never fired a shot. I can accept Scotland being beaten but I want them to at least turn up and be there for the full 80 minutes, not an hour.

It's wrong to accept that this is Scotland's ceiling as well. I'm sure there would have been a time when Ireland were there or thereabouts and told they had hit their peak and to just accept it. Scotland were utter gash 20 years ago and have striven to improve, they must continue to do that.

[BagfordViper]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

[SaintK]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Franco Smith is apparently on Leicester's shortlist to replace Cheika.
Would you say that Townsend has been succesful with the players at his disposal during his tenure.

[Biffer]

I've said this a few times and been poo-pooed but I think this this morning from Tom English probably encapsulates my feelings on Scotland. I think we are a good side, but I also think at best in both the Toonie and Cotter eras that we have been the 3rd best side in the 6N and maybe 5th or 6th best in the world. I think we have been unlucky not to have been lucky (if that's not a paradox) in the way that say Wales were with their JamSlam tournament, but broadly I think we have got what we deserve. I don't think I have seen anyone disagree with the assessment below, in fact there was a conversation just last week about our pack not being good enough, but I think we find it hard to accept that we probably don't 'deserve' to win anything.

I think people have a slightly over-inflated sense of how good this team is. Yes, the backline is absolutely outstanding, but the pack is decent without being exceptional.

Is this Scotland team better than France? No. Is it better than Ireland? No. So why do some expect Scotland to win a championship when there are two squads that are by some distance better than them?

Third would be a good finish for Scotland, second would be excellent, first would be unbelievable. I just don't think they're good enough across the board.

I'm not sure what my point is or if I even have one, but I find myself both simultaneously down on being a Scotland supporter (in an it's not fair kind of way) but also accepting that this is it for us.

The failure for me is that we've still, as third or fourth best in the tournament, never been in the conversation in the last week of the Six Nations. That's a failure, and we should have been.

It's difficult to judge how good your team should be when you were shite for so long, and I think that's part of it - the long years of maybe beating Italy to avoid the wooden spoon have given a lot of people a 'we should be grateful for what we get' attitude, and they don't expect anymore. They've got so used to saying 'we're shite' that they can't even conceptualise the idea that we might be decent.

[Slick]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts

[westport]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Franco Smith is apparently on Leicester's shortlist to replace Cheika.
Would you say that Townsend has been succesful with the players at his disposal during his tenure.

It has been said in a few places that there is a £0.5mil clause in Franco's contract, which has another year to go.

[Punter15]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Absolutely agree with all of this. Any team should always aspire to progress and improve, and while Toonie has done a good job, he’s topped out. The choice is carry on being nearlymen or try and find those extra margins.

[Tichtheid]

I'll argue on my deathbed that Cauli Lugs fucked up big time by picking his mate as the starting tighthead in South Africa instead of Euan Murray. Ryan Grant and Richie Gray were worth their spots on the Lions tour. Allan Dell is one of the luckiest Lions ever. Apart from that I don't recall us having many if any tight five Lions since that tour in 2009 and I don't think we've been hard done by in that respect.
(edit - Zander toured last time of course and probably will again, but it's not a long list of Scottish tight five Lions)

To be perfectly honest I would take every French forward tomorrow over ours, no exceptions, and they are missing a cracker of a player in Ollivon.

That's why we won't win a 6 Nations for the foreseeable future.

I want to win as much as anyone, but we just don't have the firepower up front to trouble the best four teams in the world. We have some very skilful players in the backrow, very talented, but they are small by international rankings standards and if the pack are getting blasted the game is only going to go one way.

I don't think Ireland will get back to the top of the rankings for a while now either for the same reason, the current side will lose to France four times out of five imo.

Some might argue that is a defeatist viewpoint as a Scotland fan, I think I'm trying to take off my blue goggles and look at the situation objectively. I don't see how anyone else can make the team more powerful.
Williamson and Cummings will add a bit of carrying edge, but is that in itself going to be enough for us to kick on?

[BagfordViper]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Franco Smith is apparently on Leicester's shortlist to replace Cheika.
Would you say that Townsend has been succesful with the players at his disposal during his tenure.

I can't say he's been a success, I can't say he's been a failure.. I am a bit stoical about it all, though perhaps have a niggling feeling more ought to have been achieved. I suppose I've just enjoyed the roller-coaster ride overall, but like many have been maddened by Townsend's persisting with some players who just haven’t cut it, are brainless or are way off form, yet not letting some really worthy cases get a proper look in. I'm sure others will have their own take on this, but I think GT has more eccentricities than the average bear. Much like when he was a player - infuriatingly unpredictable, but capable of wondrous things when inspired. And always, always box office, if not always for the best of reasons when things he was trying to do just didn't come off.

[Tichtheid]

U20s torment has been announced as being in Italy. ("torment" was an autocorrect from a misspelling of tournament, I'll leave it, it seems appropriate)

We have the easy pool - South Africa, England and Australia.

Scotland U20 are in Pool A with reigning champions England U20, Australia U20 and South Africa U20, and will play the following pool matches.

England U20 v Scotland U20 – Payanini Center, Verona, Sunday 29 June
Australia U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio Luigi Zaffanella, Viadana, Friday 4 July
South Africa U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio San Michele, Calvisano, Wednesday 9 July

Scotland will then go into a knockout stage of two fixtures, featuring in either the semi-finals, the 5th place semi-finals or the 9th place semi-finals depending on pool stage results.

The knockout stages begin on 14 July with finals day taking place on 19 July to determine the final placings of the 12 teams with the Stadio Maria Battaglini in Rovigo to host the 2025 title decider. Kick-off times are still to be finalised and the full match schedule will be confirmed in due course.

[I like neeps]

A lot of chat always about Scotland being "dark horses" for the six nations to be slapped with "underachivers" later in the tournament.

Look at tomorrow, in Paris the French are going to bring Julian Marchand, Dorian Aldegheri, Emmanuel Meafou, Antony Jelonch off the bench. And Scotland are going to respond with Ewan Ashman, Will Hurd, Marshall Sykes, and Ben Muncaster.

We are the third or fourth best team in the six nations and have been for the last 5 years. That's where we finish. Townsend has achieved par score.

[Biffer]

U20s torment has been announced as being in Italy. ("torment" was an autocorrect from a misspelling of tournament, I'll leave it, it seems appropriate)

We have the easy pool - South Africa, England and Australia.

Scotland U20 are in Pool A with reigning champions England U20, Australia U20 and South Africa U20, and will play the following pool matches.

England U20 v Scotland U20 – Payanini Center, Verona, Sunday 29 June
Australia U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio Luigi Zaffanella, Viadana, Friday 4 July
South Africa U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio San Michele, Calvisano, Wednesday 9 July

Scotland will then go into a knockout stage of two fixtures, featuring in either the semi-finals, the 5th place semi-finals or the 9th place semi-finals depending on pool stage results.

The knockout stages begin on 14 July with finals day taking place on 19 July to determine the final placings of the 12 teams with the Stadio Maria Battaglini in Rovigo to host the 2025 title decider. Kick-off times are still to be finalised and the full match schedule will be confirmed in due course.

How the fuck did they come up with that seeding?

[Tichtheid]

U20s torment has been announced as being in Italy. ("torment" was an autocorrect from a misspelling of tournament, I'll leave it, it seems appropriate)

We have the easy pool - South Africa, England and Australia.

Scotland U20 are in Pool A with reigning champions England U20, Australia U20 and South Africa U20, and will play the following pool matches.

England U20 v Scotland U20 – Payanini Center, Verona, Sunday 29 June
Australia U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio Luigi Zaffanella, Viadana, Friday 4 July
South Africa U20 v Scotland U20 – Stadio San Michele, Calvisano, Wednesday 9 July

Scotland will then go into a knockout stage of two fixtures, featuring in either the semi-finals, the 5th place semi-finals or the 9th place semi-finals depending on pool stage results.

The knockout stages begin on 14 July with finals day taking place on 19 July to determine the final placings of the 12 teams with the Stadio Maria Battaglini in Rovigo to host the 2025 title decider. Kick-off times are still to be finalised and the full match schedule will be confirmed in due course.

How the fuck did they come up with that seeding?

My guess is that we are bottom seeds since we qualified via the Mickey Mouse Trophy last year. England are probably top seed since they are current champions.

Fuck knows on the others.

edit, pools and seedings

Pool A: England (1), Australia (6), South Africa (7), Scotland (12)
Pool B: France (2), Argentina (5), Wales (8), Spain (11)
Pool C: New Zealand (3), Ireland (4), Georgia (9), Italy (10)

[Biffer]

U20s torment has been announced as being in Italy. ("torment" was an autocorrect from a misspelling of tournament, I'll leave it, it seems appropriate)

We have the easy pool - South Africa, England and Australia.

How the fuck did they come up with that seeding?

My guess is that we are bottom seeds since we qualified via the Mickey Mouse Trophy last year. England are probably top seed since they are current champions.

Fuck knows on the others.

Not arguing with 1 or 12 tbh - it's South Africa at 7 that's particularly confusing!

[Tichtheid]

How the fuck did they come up with that seeding?

My guess is that we are bottom seeds since we qualified via the Mickey Mouse Trophy last year. England are probably top seed since they are current champions.

Fuck knows on the others.

Not arguing with 1 or 12 tbh - it's South Africa at 7 that's particularly confusing!

Found it - final rankings from last year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Worl ... l_rankings

[Biffer]

My guess is that we are bottom seeds since we qualified via the Mickey Mouse Trophy last year. England are probably top seed since they are current champions.

Fuck knows on the others.

Not arguing with 1 or 12 tbh - it's South Africa at 7 that's particularly confusing!

Found it - final rankings from last year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Worl ... l_rankings

Well, let's hope they're that shit again this time.

[SaintK]

I think the last couple of posts are pretty objective and fair. If we were able to field our first choice, fully fit and on form side, I think Scotland could do rather more and better, especially if the current forward-dominated approach to subsitutes were to end somehow. Yet things like injuries and lack of depth come into play, so we don't and we won't.

That said, since Vern Cotter's injection of vigour and athleticism into our approach, there's been a verve and elan to Scotland's play which has been terrific to watch. For all the ups and downs, the Cotter-Townsend era has been the most exciting of any I've witnessed since I first got hooked in 1967, including the Grand Slam years and 1999. After eons of being seen as not much better than a joke, we are now absolutely nobody's pushovers. Magic stuff at times, though sheer torture at others, I admit.

I nonetheless feel maybe a change at the helm is required. I've much admired Townsend's approach, but I'd love to see if Franco Smith could maybe now inject the steel and concentration needed, while retaining and taking advantage of that skill and elan.

And let's not forget: we're still the reigning 5N champions. The world can only look on and envy.....

Much more worrying is the fact that I haven't slept a wink all week fretting over just exactly what Ashman has to do to get dropped.

Franco Smith is apparently on Leicester's shortlist to replace Cheika.
Would you say that Townsend has been succesful with the players at his disposal during his tenure.

I can't say he's been a success, I can't say he's been a failure.. I am a bit stoical about it all, though perhaps have a niggling feeling more ought to have been achieved. I suppose I've just enjoyed the roller-coaster ride overall, but like many have been maddened by Townsend's persisting with some players who just haven’t cut it, are brainless or are way off form, yet not letting some really worthy cases get a proper look in. I'm sure others will have their own take on this, but I think GT has more eccentricities than the average bear. Much like when he was a player - infuriatingly unpredictable, but capable of wondrous things when inspired. And always, always box office, if not always for the best of reasons when things he was trying to do just didn't come off.

Thanks. Must be frustrating!