The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Tichtheid]

My 6N hot take is that Darge isn't as good as we think he is and not shown enough at international level yet to be captain.

My hot take is Gilcho was actually pretty good today.

My hot take is that Gilcho usually is pretty good, good or very good.

He gets dung thrown at him for not being Eben Etzebeth or Brodie Retallick - we don't have those players in Scotland, though a couple of the young guys show some promise

the bottom line is that Gilcho is the best we've had and so fuck all the "supporters" who have given him shit over the years. They have not done what he has done.

[topofthemoon]

If injuries, loss of form, geographical restrictions weren't a thing we could put out a pack and replacements of:

Schoeman
Turner
Fagerson
Cummings
Gilchrist / R. Gray
Onyeama-Christie
Darge / Ritchie
Dempsey

Richardson
Sutherland
Who knows
Williamson
Brown
Fagerson

Which might have lasted longer into the fight than what we had available tonight,

Problem is there a near zero chance of getting every one of those players in the 23 at the same time and there are a few in there who won't make it to the World Cup anyway.

South Africa and now France have started an arms race for getting as much fresh physical power on the pitch for as much of a game as possible. I think that's only going to increase in the lead up to the RWC and we're going to have find a way to power up our pack as much as possible just to be able to get the best out of our backs.

[Blackmac]

My 6N hot take is that Darge isn't as good as we think he is and not shown enough at international level yet to be captain.

My hot take is Gilcho was actually pretty good today.

My hot take is that Gilcho usually is pretty good, good or very good.

He gets dung thrown at him for not being Eben Etzebeth or Brodie Retallick - we don't have those players in Scotland, though a couple of the young guys show some promise

the bottom line is that Gilcho is the best we've had and so fuck all the "supporters" who have given him shit over the years. They have not done what he has done.

I have to agree with you here. He has also sorted out his discipline problems from a few years back.

[Biffer]

Schoeman might have done himself a lot of good there too.

Yep, great gave. Him, Fagerson and Ritchie have a decent chance.

Ritchie would be the perfect dirt tracker for when the yokels go hunting for scalps and try to soften the boys up.

Ritchie is the perfect midweek captain. Fuck you. Fuck all of you. You want to fuck up my guys? I will break you. I'll kil your kids.

Yeah, Jaime.can be that

[Slick]

My hot take is Gilcho was actually pretty good today.

My hot take is that Gilcho usually is pretty good, good or very good.

He gets dung thrown at him for not being Eben Etzebeth or Brodie Retallick - we don't have those players in Scotland, though a couple of the young guys show some promise

the bottom line is that Gilcho is the best we've had and so fuck all the "supporters" who have given him shit over the years. They have not done what he has done.

I have to agree with you here. He has also sorted out his discipline problems from a few years back.

I’m not sure anyone disagrees to be honest. He’s always a Scotland starter, we just need a bit of dynamism next to him

[Slick]

Anyway, I thought the team were fairly heroic tonight.

The forwards fronted up and Ritchie was the best player on the pitch, with Zander close behind

Finn and BK were brilliant, as was Darcy.

It made me wonder if it’s belief rather than talent that is holding us back

We were also fucked by some awful reffing, which I’ll keep to this thread. Maybe

[Yr Alban]

Anyway, I thought the team were fairly heroic tonight.

The forwards fronted up and Ritchie was the best player on the pitch, with Zander close behind

Finn and BK were brilliant, as was Darcy.

It made me wonder if it’s belief rather than talent that is holding us back

We were also fucked by some awful reffing, which I’ll keep to this thread. Maybe

I think there is little doubt that it is belief that holds us back. We didn’t beat England at Twickenham for over 30 years, until the ridiculous comeback game which convinced us it was doable. Now we believe we can win there, and with better kicking (and reffing) would have won again this year. We believe we can compete with France, so we generally play well against them. We expect to beat Australia. But we don’t believe we can compete with Ireland, so we rarely turn up. The one time we did properly turn up (last year in Dublin) we actually gave them a scare, and it was our tendency to switch off for periods in games that cost us.

This is fixable. If Glasgow can win the URC by winning in Limerick and Pretoria, Scotland can overcome mental barriers as well. But we need a new man at the helm, IMHO. Toony has done a good job overall and made us great to watch at times, but we need someone who will make us tougher mentally.

[Blackmac]

Yep, great gave. Him, Fagerson and Ritchie have a decent chance.

Ritchie would be the perfect dirt tracker for when the yokels go hunting for scalps and try to soften the boys up.

Ritchie is the perfect midweek captain. Fuck you. Fuck all of you. You want to fuck up my guys? I will break you. I'll kil your kids.

Yeah, Jaime.can be that

His yellow card was just another example of Carley's appalling refereeing. He directly told him three times that he was legal. The French then lifted him completely off his feet and dropped him, which brought down the maul.

[robmatic]

My hot take is that Gilcho usually is pretty good, good or very good.

He gets dung thrown at him for not being Eben Etzebeth or Brodie Retallick - we don't have those players in Scotland, though a couple of the young guys show some promise

the bottom line is that Gilcho is the best we've had and so fuck all the "supporters" who have given him shit over the years. They have not done what he has done.

I have to agree with you here. He has also sorted out his discipline problems from a few years back.

I’m not sure anyone disagrees to be honest. He’s always a Scotland starter, we just need a bit of dynamism next to him

He wouldn't get in the Glasgow matchday squad according to their forum

[dpedin]

Very impressed with Gregor Brown yesterday. His carrying was excellent and he has some engine on him, all over the park. He has probably cemented his place in the team now. Sykes was also a very capable sub for him, he has a good aggressive attitude and never takes a step back. I suspect we are seeing a changing of the guard in the 2nd row with next season Cummings being the experienced old hand surrounded by these younger guys.

[Yr Alban]

Very impressed with Gregor Brown yesterday. His carrying was excellent and he has some engine on him, all over the park. He has probably cemented his place in the team now. Sykes was also a very capable sub for him, he has a good aggressive attitude and never takes a step back. I suspect we are seeing a changing of the guard in the 2nd row with next season Cummings being the experienced old hand surrounded by these younger guys.

We have several really very promising young locks at the moment. If even one of them could develop into the sort of hard gnarly bastard we’ve been crying out for, that would be a massive step forward. Sykes was my pick for that player a couple of years ago, but I’m not sure he has kicked on.

[Punter15]

Why do we seem to get so little from the officials? Yesterday, vs England, France last year etc.

Obviously a very parochial view, but can’t think of other teams getting similar. Captain not doing his job? Toonie too nice? Cognative bias? It’s the same for everyone?

[SaintK]

Why do we seem to get so little from the officials? Yesterday, vs England, France last year etc.

Obviously a very parochial view, but can’t think of other teams getting similar. Captain not doing his job? Toonie too nice? Cognative bias? It’s the same for everyone?

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

[I like neeps]

Why do we seem to get so little from the officials? Yesterday, vs England, France last year etc.

Obviously a very parochial view, but can’t think of other teams getting similar. Captain not doing his job? Toonie too nice? Cognative bias? It’s the same for everyone?

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

I would absolutely love to see Scotland decisions that we were given that evens out the jokeshop refereeing vs England: clear hold up, Itoje doing a handstand at a ruck in his 22, the referee making a mistake so egregious with the last minute kick world rugby came out saying he was wrong and then that headbutt yesterday being a yellow. Please show me the corresponding evening of it out? Where did we win a game because of atrocious refereeing in our favour? Where did we avoid quite literally the most obvious red in rugby?

Nope. Nada. Zilch. There weren't any.

The reason being big teams get the rub of the green (pardon the pun with irelands weekly litany of misbehaviour at the ruck) and so we lose out.

[Yr Alban]

Why do we seem to get so little from the officials? Yesterday, vs England, France last year etc.

Obviously a very parochial view, but can’t think of other teams getting similar. Captain not doing his job? Toonie too nice? Cognative bias? It’s the same for everyone?

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

I really don’t know. I’m not one to blame the ref for our own shortcomings, but right now Scotland seem to be on the wrong end of a significant miscarriage of justice almost every bloody game.

[Paddington Bear]

Why do we seem to get so little from the officials? Yesterday, vs England, France last year etc.

Obviously a very parochial view, but can’t think of other teams getting similar. Captain not doing his job? Toonie too nice? Cognative bias? It’s the same for everyone?

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

I would absolutely love to see Scotland decisions that we were given that evens out the jokeshop refereeing vs England: clear hold up, Itoje doing a handstand at a ruck in his 22, the referee making a mistake so egregious with the last minute kick world rugby came out saying he was wrong and then that headbutt yesterday being a yellow. Please show me the corresponding evening of it out? Where did we win a game because of atrocious refereeing in our favour? Where did we avoid quite literally the most obvious red in rugby?

Nope. Nada. Zilch. There weren't any.

The reason being big teams get the rub of the green (pardon the pun with irelands weekly litany of misbehaviour at the ruck) and so we lose out.

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

[Biffer]

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

I would absolutely love to see Scotland decisions that we were given that evens out the jokeshop refereeing vs England: clear hold up, Itoje doing a handstand at a ruck in his 22, the referee making a mistake so egregious with the last minute kick world rugby came out saying he was wrong and then that headbutt yesterday being a yellow. Please show me the corresponding evening of it out? Where did we win a game because of atrocious refereeing in our favour? Where did we avoid quite literally the most obvious red in rugby?

Nope. Nada. Zilch. There weren't any.

The reason being big teams get the rub of the green (pardon the pun with irelands weekly litany of misbehaviour at the ruck) and so we lose out.

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

I think the point is not about getting the better side of the ref, that does even out over time. But I can't think of examples of game changing wrong decisions in thoae two matches.

It's not the rub of the green we're saying we're always on the wrong side of, it's the game changing wrong decisions.

[SomersetJock]

Precisely.
I reckon it evens itself out over a competition
You guys seem to feel it a bit more.

I would absolutely love to see Scotland decisions that we were given that evens out the jokeshop refereeing vs England: clear hold up, Itoje doing a handstand at a ruck in his 22, the referee making a mistake so egregious with the last minute kick world rugby came out saying he was wrong and then that headbutt yesterday being a yellow. Please show me the corresponding evening of it out? Where did we win a game because of atrocious refereeing in our favour? Where did we avoid quite literally the most obvious red in rugby?

Nope. Nada. Zilch. There weren't any.

The reason being big teams get the rub of the green (pardon the pun with irelands weekly litany of misbehaviour at the ruck) and so we lose out.

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

I agree, It’s a tough sport to watch objectively when emotionally invested in one of the teams. And it’s probably for that reason I can’t think of anything major that occurred in our 2018 and 2022 matches that led to our wins. Any chance you could elaborate ?

[Paddington Bear]

I would absolutely love to see Scotland decisions that we were given that evens out the jokeshop refereeing vs England: clear hold up, Itoje doing a handstand at a ruck in his 22, the referee making a mistake so egregious with the last minute kick world rugby came out saying he was wrong and then that headbutt yesterday being a yellow. Please show me the corresponding evening of it out? Where did we win a game because of atrocious refereeing in our favour? Where did we avoid quite literally the most obvious red in rugby?

Nope. Nada. Zilch. There weren't any.

The reason being big teams get the rub of the green (pardon the pun with irelands weekly litany of misbehaviour at the ruck) and so we lose out.

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

I agree, It’s a tough sport to watch objectively when emotionally invested in one of the teams. And it’s probably for that reason I can’t think of anything major that occurred in our 2018 and 2022 matches that led to our wins. Any chance you could elaborate ?

Can’t pretend to keep a detailed account, but in 2022 England were almost totally dominant at scrums and were rewarded with a series of clock killing resets, particularly at the end when a penalty could/would have set up a winning score. I feel there were other major gripes, honestly can’t remember exactly what they were off the top of my head but do remember the discourse. 2018 was a Nigel Owens special of meme calls as only he could do, culminating in giving Scotland a penalty because Danny Care had intercepted a pass. The pub table took a battering!

It takes nothing away from either win and there’s no reason you’d really notice unless it’s your team affected. As you say being human and being emotional we tend to see losses as the responsibility of the ref and wins as due to the skill of our guys

[SomersetJock]

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

I agree, It’s a tough sport to watch objectively when emotionally invested in one of the teams. And it’s probably for that reason I can’t think of anything major that occurred in our 2018 and 2022 matches that led to our wins. Any chance you could elaborate ?

Can’t pretend to keep a detailed account, but in 2022 England were almost totally dominant at scrums and were rewarded with a series of clock killing resets, particularly at the end when a penalty could/would have set up a winning score. I feel there were other major gripes, honestly can’t remember exactly what they were off the top of my head but do remember the discourse. 2018 was a Nigel Owens special of meme calls as only he could do, culminating in giving Scotland a penalty because Danny Care had intercepted a pass. The pub table took a battering!

It takes nothing away from either win and there’s no reason you’d really notice unless it’s your team affected. As you say being human and being emotional we tend to see losses as the responsibility of the ref and wins as due to the skill of our guys

I remember the Care intercept, it came from Nigel warning the English Jackler to leave the ball twice at the ruck but he persisted and slowed the ball down so much it lead to the intercept. So Nigel rightly called it back for the penalty. I’m fairness Nigel should have called the penalty advantage earlier but it was still a correct call !

[I like neeps]

I agree, It’s a tough sport to watch objectively when emotionally invested in one of the teams. And it’s probably for that reason I can’t think of anything major that occurred in our 2018 and 2022 matches that led to our wins. Any chance you could elaborate ?

Can’t pretend to keep a detailed account, but in 2022 England were almost totally dominant at scrums and were rewarded with a series of clock killing resets, particularly at the end when a penalty could/would have set up a winning score. I feel there were other major gripes, honestly can’t remember exactly what they were off the top of my head but do remember the discourse. 2018 was a Nigel Owens special of meme calls as only he could do, culminating in giving Scotland a penalty because Danny Care had intercepted a pass. The pub table took a battering!

It takes nothing away from either win and there’s no reason you’d really notice unless it’s your team affected. As you say being human and being emotional we tend to see losses as the responsibility of the ref and wins as due to the skill of our guys

I remember the Care intercept, it came from Nigel warning the English Jackler to leave the ball twice at the ruck but he persisted and slowed the ball down so much it lead to the intercept. So Nigel rightly called it back for the penalty. I’m fairness Nigel should have called the penalty advantage earlier but it was still a correct call !

Was a bizarre call considering when blew the whistle but deliberate illegal act had a material impact on the speed of ball. Annoying to be on the receiving end of a correct call made incorrectly no doubt. Nothing on there being absolutely no clear grounding, a ruck handstand, and an opposition captain telling a supine referee a kick was from further than not.

2022 I don't remember, scrums are a joke at the best of times.

[SomersetJock]

Can’t pretend to keep a detailed account, but in 2022 England were almost totally dominant at scrums and were rewarded with a series of clock killing resets, particularly at the end when a penalty could/would have set up a winning score. I feel there were other major gripes, honestly can’t remember exactly what they were off the top of my head but do remember the discourse. 2018 was a Nigel Owens special of meme calls as only he could do, culminating in giving Scotland a penalty because Danny Care had intercepted a pass. The pub table took a battering!

It takes nothing away from either win and there’s no reason you’d really notice unless it’s your team affected. As you say being human and being emotional we tend to see losses as the responsibility of the ref and wins as due to the skill of our guys

I remember the Care intercept, it came from Nigel warning the English Jackler to leave the ball twice at the ruck but he persisted and slowed the ball down so much it lead to the intercept. So Nigel rightly called it back for the penalty. I’m fairness Nigel should have called the penalty advantage earlier but it was still a correct call !

Was a bizarre call considering when blew the whistle but deliberate illegal act had a material impact on the speed of ball. Annoying to be on the receiving end of a correct call made incorrectly no doubt. Nothing on there being absolutely no clear grounding, a ruck handstand, and an opposition captain telling a supine referee a kick was from further than not.

2022 I don't remember, scrums are a joke at the best of times.

The only major referee involvement I remember from 2022 was when Cowan-Dickie decided to play volleyball and was Sin-binned and penalty try was awarded. But that was as clear cut a correct a decision as they come.

[Soapy]

Refereeing was a major contributor to Scotland’s wins over England in 2018 and 2022, off the top of my head. I will concede that you seem to be getting the wrong side of the coin a fair amount recently, equally this could all change very quickly and you’ll get a run of 50/50s.

We also tend not to notice poor reffing when it benefits our side (I’m as guilty as anyone - I didn’t clock Freeman’s try being at all iffy until the next day), or explain it away as just one of those things in a good performance from the boys

I agree, It’s a tough sport to watch objectively when emotionally invested in one of the teams. And it’s probably for that reason I can’t think of anything major that occurred in our 2018 and 2022 matches that led to our wins. Any chance you could elaborate ?

Can’t pretend to keep a detailed account, but in 2022 England were almost totally dominant at scrums and were rewarded with a series of clock killing resets, particularly at the end when a penalty could/would have set up a winning score. I feel there were other major gripes, honestly can’t remember exactly what they were off the top of my head but do remember the discourse. 2018 was a Nigel Owens special of meme calls as only he could do, culminating in giving Scotland a penalty because Danny Care had intercepted a pass. The pub table took a battering!

It takes nothing away from either win and there’s no reason you’d really notice unless it’s your team affected. As you say being human and being emotional we tend to see losses as the responsibility of the ref and wins as due to the skill of our guys

In 2022, English loose head - Marler - swung out left and hared down the right flank of the scrum. Nel at tighthead was completely square and didn't move an inch back. Was penalty to Scotland or reset if the ref was kind. Watch again, there is an aerial view and it is clear as day.

[Punter15]

PB is being gracious and balanced. Let’s not split hairs.

[Punter15]

And BTW, the play of the entire weekend was the drop goal by Matthew Urwin in the last minute of the U20s game. 1000 IQ points.

If you haven’t seen the game, watch it. Really great game and some excellent performances by the young ‘uns.

[Soapy]

PB is being gracious and balanced. Let’s not split hairs.

Agreed. No criticism intended.

It shows the challenges of refereeing and making the right decisions these days. It is the inconsistent approach and variations in how the laws are applied that is maddening more than specific decisions. Game to game nobody can be confident in how play will be refereed which is a huge issue.

[Yr Alban]

PB is being gracious and balanced. Let’s not split hairs.

Agreed. No criticism intended.

It shows the challenges of refereeing and making the right decisions these days. It is the inconsistent approach and variations in how the laws are applied that is maddening more than specific decisions. Game to game nobody can be confident in how play will be refereed which is a huge issue.

Absolutely this. There is so much inconsistency that part of the game is now figuring out which of the laws today’s ref intends to apply and which they will ignore.

[Biffer]

PB is being gracious and balanced. Let’s not split hairs.

Agreed. No criticism intended.

It shows the challenges of refereeing and making the right decisions these days. It is the inconsistent approach and variations in how the laws are applied that is maddening more than specific decisions. Game to game nobody can be confident in how play will be refereed which is a huge issue.

Absolutely this. There is so much inconsistency that part of the game is now figuring out which of the laws today’s ref intends to apply and which they will ignore.

I think what most of us are complaining about aren't so much inconsistencies in applying the laws as blatantly wrong decisions that are game changing in nature.

[clydecloggie]

Rejoice folks, best bit of the rugby season coming up - Champions Cup KOs and URC business end. Where a Scottish team might actually achieve something of note (not winning it again, don't be daft, but an heroic defeat in the Dublin final is well within reach).

[Biffer]

I was just thinking, apropos of nothing, about the back line of Scottish qualified by blood players who've declined to play for us.

Christie, Smith, Dingwall, McKenzie, McConnachie. Chuck that in with our actual backline and the squad would be oozing talent.

[SaintK]

I was just thinking, apropos of nothing, about the back line of Scottish qualified by blood players who've declined to play for us.

Christie, Smith, Dingwall, McKenzie, McConnachie. Chuck that in with our actual backline and the squad would be oozing talent.

Christie?

[Biffer]

I was just thinking, apropos of nothing, about the back line of Scottish qualified by blood players who've declined to play for us.

Christie, Smith, Dingwall, McKenzie, McConnachie. Chuck that in with our actual backline and the squad would be oozing talent.

Christie?

NZ scrum half, born in Scotland to Scottish parents before they emigrated when he was about nine years old I think.

[SaintK]

I was just thinking, apropos of nothing, about the back line of Scottish qualified by blood players who've declined to play for us.

Christie, Smith, Dingwall, McKenzie, McConnachie. Chuck that in with our actual backline and the squad would be oozing talent.

Christie?

NZ scrum half, born in Scotland to Scottish parents before they emigrated when he was about nine years old I think.

Thanks

[topofthemoon]

I was just thinking, apropos of nothing, about the back line of Scottish qualified by blood players who've declined to play for us.

Christie, Smith, Dingwall, McKenzie, McConnachie. Chuck that in with our actual backline and the squad would be oozing talent.

I think we rejected McConnochie - or declined to pick him after including him in a couple of training squads.

Roebuck fits the bill instead. Shaun Stevenson is reported to have said he is SQ - although I can't find a reliable source for that - and he is definitely Samoan qualified so there may just be a mix-up. Tommy Allan could fit in at full back, centre or stand off. Jacob Beetham was supposed to being tapped up by Toony but tied himself to Wales with 11 mins v South Africa last summer.