2025 6N thread

[Uncle fester]

As pointed out, it's not the first time the French have struggled to get the right angle or zoom when it comes to their own wrongdoing. They'll have a million angles when it's somebody else though.

[Tichtheid]

Mauvaka’s been cited

[Marylandolorian]

Menoncello nominated again

Seeing the stats Kinghorn might be the one.

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/en/m6n/ ... ab=players

It would be great to have another jock a potc but I'd give it to LBB

Ah the Auld Alliance not like the grumpy Irish.
I like LBB, he makes a big difference in the team ( he also plays for my club UBB, no family relations), but personally I would have put #6 François Cros instead.

[Big D]

The fact is a 6ft 19.5 stone (125kg) has decided in a dead ball situation to launch himself into an opponent who is on the ground.

There should be absolutely no mitigation whatsoever.

Not a provable thing but I don't think it would have mattered. But eventually this will happen in a game where it does.

The 20min red card and bunker has meant the refs are shit scared to produce a full red.

[Kawazaki]

There's a slightly clearer view of it here,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... lygq419yko


That it was a deliberate action from Mauvaka cannot be in dispute. There is nothing in that laws that I can see that says White has to be knocked out or has to suffer a broken jaw, on the contrary, the laws only mention the action of the perpetrator, ie law 9.12

A player must not physically or verbally abuse anyone. Physical abuse includes, but is not limited to, biting, punching, contact with the eye or eye area, striking with any part of the arm, shoulder, head or knee(s), stamping, trampling, tripping or kicking.

Agree it was foul play and deserved sanction. I'm just not convinced there was little or any actual contact with White's head. You can't see it hit from the video, that's just the assumption made from seeing White go the full Ronaldo holding his face.

[Tichtheid]

Seeing the stats Kinghorn might be the one.

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/en/m6n/ ... ab=players

It would be great to have another jock a potc but I'd give it to LBB

Ah the Auld Alliance not like the grumpy Irish.
I like LBB, he makes a big difference in the team ( he also plays for my club UBB, no family relations), but personally I would have put #6 François Cros instead.

LBB for me, he was terrific

[charltom]

There's a slightly clearer view of it here,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... lygq419yko


That it was a deliberate action from Mauvaka cannot be in dispute. There is nothing in that laws that I can see that says White has to be knocked out or has to suffer a broken jaw, on the contrary, the laws only mention the action of the perpetrator, ie law 9.12

A player must not physically or verbally abuse anyone. Physical abuse includes, but is not limited to, biting, punching, contact with the eye or eye area, striking with any part of the arm, shoulder, head or knee(s), stamping, trampling, tripping or kicking.

Agree it was foul play and deserved sanction. I'm just not convinced there was little or any actual contact with White's head. You can't see it hit from the video, that's just the assumption made from seeing White go the full Ronaldo holding his face.

I'm pretty certain PM's head got BW's nose and he wasn't Ronaldoing at all.

But, based on your enlarged words above, I'm not sure that matters. PM did strike.

[Yeeb]

I don't think it was a headbutt. If you watch it, it looks like Mauvaka's head goes to the left and below the chin of White and it's the right shoulder that hits high on the chest. If there was contact with White's head then it happened in a glancing motion to his chin area. The optics of him then grabbing his face reflected poorly on White imho.

Still definitely a YC though.

It’s not the part of the body the attacker uses that matters , just if the victim got struck . Glancing or not also doesn’t really matter.

[Blackmac]

There's a slightly clearer view of it here,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... lygq419yko


That it was a deliberate action from Mauvaka cannot be in dispute. There is nothing in that laws that I can see that says White has to be knocked out or has to suffer a broken jaw, on the contrary, the laws only mention the action of the perpetrator, ie law 9.12

A player must not physically or verbally abuse anyone. Physical abuse includes, but is not limited to, biting, punching, contact with the eye or eye area, striking with any part of the arm, shoulder, head or knee(s), stamping, trampling, tripping or kicking.

Agree it was foul play and deserved sanction. I'm just not convinced there was little or any actual contact with White's head. You can't see it hit from the video, that's just the assumption made from seeing White go the full Ronaldo holding his face.

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

[Uncle fester]

[dpedin]

Hopefully viewed as assault!

[Big D]

He'll end up with 2 weeks.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There's a slightly clearer view of it here,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... lygq419yko


That it was a deliberate action from Mauvaka cannot be in dispute. There is nothing in that laws that I can see that says White has to be knocked out or has to suffer a broken jaw, on the contrary, the laws only mention the action of the perpetrator, ie law 9.12

Agree it was foul play and deserved sanction. I'm just not convinced there was little or any actual contact with White's head. You can't see it hit from the video, that's just the assumption made from seeing White go the full Ronaldo holding his face.

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

[dpedin]

Agree it was foul play and deserved sanction. I'm just not convinced there was little or any actual contact with White's head. You can't see it hit from the video, that's just the assumption made from seeing White go the full Ronaldo holding his face.

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Ah the Auld Alliance not like the grumpy Irish.
I like LBB, he makes a big difference in the team ( he also plays for my club UBB, no family relations), but personally I would have put #6 François Cros instead.

Perhaps because he's new on the scene, and it's limiting he might have only played around 50% of the available minutes, but I've been super impressed with Guillard. What a find.

[Lobby]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

A Fiji Drua player was shown a straight red card for a headbutt in the Super Rugby Pacific last year. There was less force than Mauvaka's flying headbutt and contact was on the chest rather than the head, but the Fijian player was rightly shown a straight red. The game was played under the 20 minute red card protocols, but as the player was shown a straight red, he was sent off for the rest of the match.

https://x.com/StanSportRugby/status/1776194229296877854

The Super Rugby ref got this right. Unsurprisingly Carley, and then the useless TMO got this completely wrong

[Kawazaki]

x.

[Kawazaki]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

In the overhead shot it still looks like Mauvaka's head goes to the left and under White's chin.

I'm only saying what I'm seeing.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Funnily enough there is suddenly a perfect overhead footage, all over Twitter, that shows it's a full headbutt directly to White's face.

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement.

Am still seething at the crass stupidity of it. Expect it of a cretin like Haouas (blame Galthie for the selection) but it's the sort of thing that would have me perma drop a player.
Not like Marchand is a poor 2nd choice.

[Biffer]

. Most of the people saying he shouldn't get a big ban because he hardly made contact with the head are also the ones who would often say foul play shouldn't be judged on outcomes.

[Jock42]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

[Slick]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

[dpedin]

I don't actually remember seeing White go off for an HIA, which presumably is why it wasn't upgraded to a red as there simply wasn't much contact. Which is beyond lucky for a beyond stupid action, he could have easily gotten similar force contact to Botha on Cowan.

That said I wasn't watching that closely, my first instinct was to penalise White for going full footballer, but that's somewhat harsh for all he does seem to reach for some am-dram skills. I have to say I've no sense of what Mauvaka should get for this, in many ways it'd be easier if he really had stuck one on White, he deserves something and yet not a lot seemingly actually resulted from his disgusting reaction

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

Again you cant judge his behavior on whether he injured White or if he hit his head or neck - he launched himself head first into another player's head area and made contact with his head or as damn as near it to make it difficult to tell. It is the act and the intention that is punishable here not whether he actually hit White's forehead, cheek or chin! It was not a tackle, it was a deliberate violent act after the whistle had gone and with White lying prone on the ground, you should not apply the dangerous tackle criteria to this act.

It is the similar debate about when Murray jumped into the tackle against Scotland and went on to score a 'try', he was punished for a dangerous jump into the tackle and not let off because he didn't make contact with anyone whilst making a dangerous and illegal act. The outcome is irrelevant if he has clearly jumped into the tackle, end of!

[Jock42]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

At the very least surely some reflective practice with a more senior ref(s)?

[Biffer]

French TV didn't show us all the angles?

I'm as shocked as I've ever been

Shocked beyond my previous concept of shockability

Shocked to a shockhoodness that barely bears comparison to my previous under standing of beshockedness.

Is anyone else shocked or am I alone on my shocking little island of shockeroonie-edness?

[Yeeb]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

Need to award the match to Scotland I think , by about 65 points they would have beaten a poor French side a man down after 20 mins by.
Any effect on the end table is coincidental.

[Biffer]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

[SaintK]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

At the very least surely some reflective practice with a more senior ref(s)?

Problem is he is a senior ref, he's 40 tests in since 2017.
All refs and officials are reviewed after a test match. Hopefully head of WR referees Joel Jutge wil give him more than a slap on the wrists for that performance though I doubt anything will be made public!!

[Tichtheid]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

I’m less critical of Carley here than I am of Tempest.
Tempest doesn’t have the white heat of a test match to deal with, he should have said it wasn’t a tackle situation.
Then after failing that he should have upgraded yellow to red
He can call for all angles to be shown in the 8 minutes he has to deal with it

[topofthemoon]

There were only two match officials who were awarded more than a single game as ref during the current Six Nations - which you would think would give some indication where they are considered to rank in the current pecking order of top tier officials.

One is Matthew Carley, the ref for France v Scotland, the other is Karl Dickson, the lead Assistant Referee for France v Scotland.

Marius van der Westhuizen (TMO) and Ian Tempest (FPRO) both had three appointments, putting them among the top rank of the off field officials.

Basically this was about as experienced and rated a team of officials as there could have been and they still went down the wrong route with their decision-making.

There is something more fundamental wrong than just this group of five officials.

[Biffer]

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

I’m less critical of Carley here than I am of Tempest.
Tempest doesn’t have the white heat of a test match to deal with, he should have said it wasn’t a tackle situation.
Then after failing that he should have upgraded yellow to red
He can call for all angles to be shown in the 8 minutes he has to deal with it

Yeah, I understand that, but Carlet has been below international standard for all his time as an international ref. Somehow went from just learning to too experienced to be called shit without anyone picking up the fact he wasn't up to it.

[Marylandolorian]

I like Mauvaka, he’s really fun to watch and I’ve no problem with these 3 weeks. At least no players were injured like Ire-Fra with 1 concussion , 1 player out for 6 months and not even a yc
Yes it’s a big problem with the rucks and some refs like Carley and Gardner too many to list, the best one right now is Pearce.

[Kawazaki]

I don't like Carley because I don't think he's very empathetic to the players and has a standoffish aura about him. However, he's actually considered as possibly the best referee in terms of his technical proficiency and strict adherence to the letter of the laws rather than an interpretation of them.

Which is kind of ironic.

[Biffer]

I like Mauvaka, he’s really fun to watch and I’ve no problem with these 3 weeks. At least no players were injured like Ire-Fra with 1 concussion , 1 player out for 6 months and not even a yc
Yes it’s a big problem with the rucks and some refs like Carley and Gardner too many to list, the best one right now is Pearce.

Agrred about Pearce. Of all the more experienced refs around atm, I think he'd be the most likely to have said 'why do I need to send that to the bunker? That fella is done for the day"

[Uncle fester]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

People keep saying this but fact of the matter is that these are the best refs out there. It is a serious serious process to get to that level and any weaker refs are weeded out long beforehand.

[Uncle fester]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

Nope. The most incriminating angle was only available after the game.

[Biffer]

3 match ban after admitting guilt. More than I expected, was waiting for WR to "circle the wagons".

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

Nope. The most incriminating angle was only available after the game.

Was it? It wasn't shown on TV, but they're meant to have access to all of them in the ref box. If they didn't the French producers shiuld have the contract removed.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

There is a difference between an illegal high tackle during a period of play and basically trying to head butt another player. If a tackle then the protocol comes into play and the degree of danger, where contact is made, degree of force, etc all become part of the equation and decision making. If a player deliberately head butts another player lying on the ground, as in this case, then those issues become immaterial, it is the illegality of the actions of the player ie the head butt alone, that leads to a straight red card. In the video above then it is clear that Mauvaka launches himself using his legs to thrust his head into the head of White who is lying on the ground having done little if anything wrong. It is an unprovoked violent act and should have been a straight red card followed by a lengthy ban.

I don't especially want to defend Mauvaka in this, if he gets an 8-16 week ban just for sheer stupidity so be it, but it does look more a head brush than but, granted more by luck than judgement. And then we get into what if you throw a punch that misses territory

I'm also not sure he launches himself at the head, me might be trying to collide the torso. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to tell the difference looking at the video. Mauvaka may know, but if he was being an utter git he's unlikely to come clean at this juncture

Again you cant judge his behavior on whether he injured White or if he hit his head or neck - he launched himself head first into another player's head area and made contact with his head or as damn as near it to make it difficult to tell. It is the act and the intention that is punishable here not whether he actually hit White's forehead, cheek or chin! It was not a tackle, it was a deliberate violent act after the whistle had gone and with White lying prone on the ground, you should not apply the dangerous tackle criteria to this act.

It is the similar debate about when Murray jumped into the tackle against Scotland and went on to score a 'try', he was punished for a dangerous jump into the tackle and not let off because he didn't make contact with anyone whilst making a dangerous and illegal act. The outcome is irrelevant if he has clearly jumped into the tackle, end of!

I wasn't applying a tackle situation, merely I was pondering to sanction a headbutt there being a butt wouldn't not be a thing.

If the standard is driving into dangerous space then fine, only it's not as we see with POM attempting to end the career of Dupont

[Slick]

What do they do with the ref and TMO here? I never want a ref hung out to dry but when it's such an outrageous error, using the same footage everyone else has seen, that had such a big impact on the game, you'd think something much happen

It's Carley.

He's been so shit, for so long, and absolutely not up to international rugby in any way, that hanging out to dry is a very fair punishment.

People keep saying this but fact of the matter is that these are the best refs out there. It is a serious serious process to get to that level and any weaker refs are weeded out long beforehand.

I agree with this. I don’t think he is particularly bad at all, but this was a stinker.

They’ve put refs in a shit situation where they can duck big decisions but still get all the crap. There is a team of at least 5 who’s sole aim should be to help the ref make the right decision and be the sole arbiter and that doesn’t seem to be happening