Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[SaintK]

I can imagine Starmer being better at the bureaucratic dogfighting than the Tory spivs we had to put up with for 14 years.

He does appear to have taken that tough step 1 that eluded the Conservative Party - ‘trying’.

Telling the Sentencing Council that they’d legislate was the killer, a Tory Lord Chancellor would have written a column in the Telegraph

This was a fight on turf Starmer feels very comfortable on

Someone needs to remind that piece of shit Jenrick who exactly was in government when this all started before he pens another op-ed in the Torygraph

[Rhubarb & Custard]

He does appear to have taken that tough step 1 that eluded the Conservative Party - ‘trying’.

Telling the Sentencing Council that they’d legislate was the killer, a Tory Lord Chancellor would have written a column in the Telegraph

This was a fight on turf Starmer feels very comfortable on

Someone needs to remind that piece of shit Jenrick who exactly was in government when this all started before he pens another op-ed in the Torygraph

Black people? he certainly seems very worried about black people when he campaigns now

[sockwithaticket]

A few thoughts after watching the energy secretary once again mounting what seems to me an incredibly weak defence of Labour's handling of the whole water industry issue.

The water companies are being permitted to increase bills by an average of 26% (considerably more in some cases), despite their litany of failures and financial mismanagement of extraordinary amounts of funding. He claims that the money raised by the bill increases is entirely necessary and will be used for much needed capital investment and that the regulatory framework now prevents them from using it to pay out dividends (which strains credulity given how fucking intentionally weak and soft touch most of our regulators are...).

He stated that the money has to come via this mechanism, via private money, because there's a limited public pot.

Now, maybe I'm being incredibly dense, but I'm failing to really grasp any material difference between private and public money in this instance. This money whether it comes via bill rise or taxation rise is coming from the same source - ordinary people. It's a tax in all but name as the government effectively signs off the regulator permitting a bill increase and people don't really have any choice about paying it.


Further, when the economy is struggling, principally because people don't have enough disposable income, why are regulators, that ultimately answer to the government, allowing yet further over-inflationary increases on utilities across the board?

[fishfoodie]

This was a fight on turf Starmer feels very comfortable on

Someone needs to remind that piece of shit Jenrick who exactly was in government when this all started before he pens another op-ed in the Torygraph

Black people? he certainly seems very worried about black people when he campaigns now

He's already campaigning to the racists in the membership, even before the next Leadership campaign has even started

Someone needs to tap him on the shoulder & show him how successful rejected candidates are when they try a 2nd tilt at the Leadership !

[C69]

Only c69 has mentioned the key elephant in room about what can a govt do about Uk economy , whilst all you armchair Tory and Labour bashers waffle - that elephant being state pension & the triple lock. It’s by far and away the single biggest drain on UK plc finances, and as 75% of health spending is on the oldies , they alone directly take up about 40% of govt spending.

By directly I mean via new hips and pension paid, rather than indirectly such as benefitting from nice roads, police and fire cover, armed forces stopping us being invaded , street lighting they can use at night…

Arguably neither pension nor the nhs is adequately or appropriately funded , governments of various hues have kicked these cans down the road since ww2 & nhs formation. Until someone has the balls to change these (and abolishing triple lock seems easier to me than fixing the black hole of nhs quickly) then any budget is merely tinkering for political point scoring.

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

[Yeeb]

Only c69 has mentioned the key elephant in room about what can a govt do about Uk economy , whilst all you armchair Tory and Labour bashers waffle - that elephant being state pension & the triple lock. It’s by far and away the single biggest drain on UK plc finances, and as 75% of health spending is on the oldies , they alone directly take up about 40% of govt spending.

By directly I mean via new hips and pension paid, rather than indirectly such as benefitting from nice roads, police and fire cover, armed forces stopping us being invaded , street lighting they can use at night…

Arguably neither pension nor the nhs is adequately or appropriately funded , governments of various hues have kicked these cans down the road since ww2 & nhs formation. Until someone has the balls to change these (and abolishing triple lock seems easier to me than fixing the black hole of nhs quickly) then any budget is merely tinkering for political point scoring.

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

[I like neeps]

A few thoughts after watching the energy secretary once again mounting what seems to me an incredibly weak defence of Labour's handling of the whole water industry issue.

The water companies are being permitted to increase bills by an average of 26% (considerably more in some cases), despite their litany of failures and financial mismanagement of extraordinary amounts of funding. He claims that the money raised by the bill increases is entirely necessary and will be used for much needed capital investment and that the regulatory framework now prevents them from using it to pay out dividends (which strains credulity given how fucking intentionally weak and soft touch most of our regulators are...).

He stated that the money has to come via this mechanism, via private money, because there's a limited public pot.

Now, maybe I'm being incredibly dense, but I'm failing to really grasp any material difference between private and public money in this instance. This money whether it comes via bill rise or taxation rise is coming from the same source - ordinary people. It's a tax in all but name as the government effectively signs off the regulator permitting a bill increase and people don't really have any choice about paying it.


Further, when the economy is struggling, principally because people don't have enough disposable income, why are regulators, that ultimately answer to the government, allowing yet further over-inflationary increases on utilities across the board?

The bill rises are both huge and not enough so we'll limp on for a few years.

There is no cogent and consistent defence of water policy because 30 years of mismanagement and capital extraction has left a broken mess.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

A bankrupt broken mess. Actually well beyond bankrupt. And seemingly what matters is what gets entered where onto a balance sheet, not what a thing is bigger picture

[Slick]

Only c69 has mentioned the key elephant in room about what can a govt do about Uk economy , whilst all you armchair Tory and Labour bashers waffle - that elephant being state pension & the triple lock. It’s by far and away the single biggest drain on UK plc finances, and as 75% of health spending is on the oldies , they alone directly take up about 40% of govt spending.

By directly I mean via new hips and pension paid, rather than indirectly such as benefitting from nice roads, police and fire cover, armed forces stopping us being invaded , street lighting they can use at night…

Arguably neither pension nor the nhs is adequately or appropriately funded , governments of various hues have kicked these cans down the road since ww2 & nhs formation. Until someone has the balls to change these (and abolishing triple lock seems easier to me than fixing the black hole of nhs quickly) then any budget is merely tinkering for political point scoring.

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

[dpedin]

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Not sure the idea of having 'civilian conscription' into the NHS is a good idea! Jimmy Saville springs to mind!

Patient and individual safety, patient confidentiality, cost, security, etc are all worries. The NHS already utilizes motivated volunteers but it isn't a free/cheap option and is small numbers. It also has a range of other employment opportunities for folk ie modern apprenticeships, school/University experience placements, etc. These are difficult to run, need high levels of supervision and cost a lot of money. When you think of the range of people who might be 'forced' into working in the NHS a couple of days a week and the baggage they might bring it poses all sorts of risks. I can just imagine the already run ragged NHS staff having to 'shadow' some dodgy characters in the workplace being very grateful for all the extra work. The thought of having lightly supervised and poorly trained unemployed folk working a couple of days a week amongst physically and/or mentally compromised people scares the shit out of me! Last time I was an inpatient the nurses in the orthopedic ward had their hands full keeping tabs on a junkie patient and keeping him away from other patients belongings, drugs, syringes, etc. last thing they would want is having to do the same for the unemployed folk working on 'community service'.

Despite no tuition fees and a bursary in Scotland we are still struggling to recruit to nurse undergraduate programmes in Scotland - see RCN article. We have unfilled places on degree programmes. Numbers into University are down every year for the last 6 years. It will take far more to retain let alone grow the nursing workforce going forward as more leave than enter the workforce. Couple this with flatlining numbers of school leavers going forward over next 10+ years then it is only going to get more difficult to train our own workforce hence the reliance on immigration.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ata-190724

[Tichtheid]

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Pot hole repairs are often outsourced to contractors. The contractor would have to accept staff they have no previous experience of, haven't interviewed or vetted and train them how to do a job. There is the issue of liability if anything goes wrong, if a pothole wasn't repaired properly and was the cause of an accident from a blown tyre to swerving and hitting someone's car or hitting a pedestrian - if I was a contractor I wouldn't be accepting liability under those circumstances.

In my job as a fencing contractor I was responsible for livestock not getting out of the enclosed area, no way would I accept anyone who I didn't know and trust to do that job. The job itself uses a lot of very dangerous tools - chainsaws, augurs, post driver, tractor. I'd be fucked if I let anyone use those tools, even under supervision - you can't stand over someone all day making sure they don't lose a limb.

Those are just the first two examples I can think of.

[Yeeb]

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Not sure the idea of having 'civilian conscription' into the NHS is a good idea! Jimmy Saville springs to mind!

Patient and individual safety, patient confidentiality, cost, security, etc are all worries. The NHS already utilizes motivated volunteers but it isn't a free/cheap option and is small numbers. It also has a range of other employment opportunities for folk ie modern apprenticeships, school/University experience placements, etc. These are difficult to run, need high levels of supervision and cost a lot of money. When you think of the range of people who might be 'forced' into working in the NHS a couple of days a week and the baggage they might bring it poses all sorts of risks. I can just imagine the already run ragged NHS staff having to 'shadow' some dodgy characters in the workplace being very grateful for all the extra work. The thought of having lightly supervised and poorly trained unemployed folk working a couple of days a week amongst physically and/or mentally compromised people scares the shit out of me! Last time I was an inpatient the nurses in the orthopedic ward had their hands full keeping tabs on a junkie patient and keeping him away from other patients belongings, drugs, syringes, etc. last thing they would want is having to do the same for the unemployed folk working on 'community service'.

Despite no tuition fees and a bursary in Scotland we are still struggling to recruit to nurse undergraduate programmes in Scotland - see RCN article. We have unfilled places on degree programmes. Numbers into University are down every year for the last 6 years. It will take far more to retain let alone grow the nursing workforce going forward as more leave than enter the workforce. Couple this with flatlining numbers of school leavers going forward over next 10+ years then it is only going to get more difficult to train our own workforce hence the reliance on immigration.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ata-190724

Not everyone on benefits is ‘dodgy’ mate, and of course there would be costs, training, vetting etc
Perhaps then just portering or wipe oldies shit up in care homes ?

Or even working holistically - put them to work on building a new clinic someplace ? Perhaps even train them a useful skill ? You have jumped to several conclusions there that they are all peadosnuff violen druggies and I was saying they should be brain surgeons on day one!

If scotlands hiring woes continue , would they perhaps increase if benefits were not so freely given out without some kind of commitment ?
The whole country has about 2m people ‘too sick ‘ to work, plenty there are just having a laugh and really could be arm twisting into some kind of work for their money. Insults the genuinely ill and too sick to work who have to do degrading tests.

[Yeeb]

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Pot hole repairs are often outsourced to contractors. The contractor would have to accept staff they have no previous experience of, haven't interviewed or vetted and train them how to do a job. There is the issue of liability if anything goes wrong, if a pothole wasn't repaired properly and was the cause of an accident from a blown tyre to swerving and hitting someone's car or hitting a pedestrian - if I was a contractor I wouldn't be accepting liability under those circumstances.

In my job as a fencing contractor I was responsible for livestock not getting out of the enclosed area, no way would I accept anyone who I didn't know and trust to do that job. The job itself uses a lot of very dangerous tools - chainsaws, augurs, post driver, tractor. I'd be fucked if I let anyone use those tools, even under supervision - you can't stand over someone all day making sure they don't lose a limb.

Those are just the first two examples I can think of.

Again, who said anything about unvetted or untrained ?
Would not take much training or supervision to use a wheelbarrow with some gravel in, or the African technique of employment where someone waves a red flag before some roadworks.

I know I take the piss out of Refry, but fuck me there are some negative Nellie’s on here about people on benefits and their potential or competency

[SaintK]

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

A huge over generalisation and you can fuck right off.
Bet you have private health care for yourself and your family

[Yeeb]

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

A huge over generalisation and you can fuck right off.
Bet you have private health care for yourself and your family

Don’t try and deny there is generational bigotry that’s endemic , you can go down the semantics of my use of the word ‘all’ if you want as that’s exactly the kind of self righteousness I’d expect of someone your age. Current oaps have had an absolute armchair ride their entire life especially with regards to the entitlement for current provision that they have greatly underpaid for.
Even the non reform voters have underpaid relative to their burden of triple locks & free knee OP’s and piss bags.

And of course I have private healthcare too, unsure what your point is here apart from usual old person rant - doesn’t mean I don’t use NHs greatly as I’ve previously mentioned. And yes, I also underpay, that’s the whole point re I don’t think it’s properly funded at all.

[Paddington Bear]

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Pot hole repairs are often outsourced to contractors. The contractor would have to accept staff they have no previous experience of, haven't interviewed or vetted and train them how to do a job. There is the issue of liability if anything goes wrong, if a pothole wasn't repaired properly and was the cause of an accident from a blown tyre to swerving and hitting someone's car or hitting a pedestrian - if I was a contractor I wouldn't be accepting liability under those circumstances.

In my job as a fencing contractor I was responsible for livestock not getting out of the enclosed area, no way would I accept anyone who I didn't know and trust to do that job. The job itself uses a lot of very dangerous tools - chainsaws, augurs, post driver, tractor. I'd be fucked if I let anyone use those tools, even under supervision - you can't stand over someone all day making sure they don't lose a limb.

Those are just the first two examples I can think of.

I don’t think there’s a huge argument for people on benefits taking skilled jobs from contractors, but the state of just about any large town or city suggests we are crying out for more litter pickers etc. My local station had nice floral displays until the station manager who did it as a hobby retired - this kind of thing would be nice to see more of

Someone I know spent years on PIP and equivalents, was depressed, crippling back pain etc., got convinced to apply for a job as a postie and lo and behold 3 months later he’s happy and his back pain has cleared up. I don’t believe the stat that 25% of the country is disabled is real, there’s a fair proportion of that number who are people like him and if the government can force them out the house it would be a huge net win for them individually and the country as a whole

[Yeeb]

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Pot hole repairs are often outsourced to contractors. The contractor would have to accept staff they have no previous experience of, haven't interviewed or vetted and train them how to do a job. There is the issue of liability if anything goes wrong, if a pothole wasn't repaired properly and was the cause of an accident from a blown tyre to swerving and hitting someone's car or hitting a pedestrian - if I was a contractor I wouldn't be accepting liability under those circumstances.

In my job as a fencing contractor I was responsible for livestock not getting out of the enclosed area, no way would I accept anyone who I didn't know and trust to do that job. The job itself uses a lot of very dangerous tools - chainsaws, augurs, post driver, tractor. I'd be fucked if I let anyone use those tools, even under supervision - you can't stand over someone all day making sure they don't lose a limb.

Those are just the first two examples I can think of.

I don’t think there’s a huge argument for people on benefits taking skilled jobs from contractors, but the state of just about any large town or city suggests we are crying out for more litter pickers etc. My local station had nice floral displays until the station manager who did it as a hobby retired - this kind of thing would be nice to see more of

Someone I know spent years on PIP and equivalents, was depressed, crippling back pain etc., got convinced to apply for a job as a postie and lo and behold 3 months later he’s happy and his back pain has cleared up. I don’t believe the stat that 25% of the country is disabled is real, there’s a fair proportion of that number who are people like him and if the government can force them out the house it would be a huge net win for them individually and the country as a whole

Well done to your postie mate - can you elaborate on the ‘convinced’ bit ? Did DWP arm twist him, or did you get him drunk and persuade him to ?

Do hope he was properly trained on the use of his postie trolley, avoiding all those dangerous letterboxes etc

[dpedin]

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Not sure the idea of having 'civilian conscription' into the NHS is a good idea! Jimmy Saville springs to mind!

Patient and individual safety, patient confidentiality, cost, security, etc are all worries. The NHS already utilizes motivated volunteers but it isn't a free/cheap option and is small numbers. It also has a range of other employment opportunities for folk ie modern apprenticeships, school/University experience placements, etc. These are difficult to run, need high levels of supervision and cost a lot of money. When you think of the range of people who might be 'forced' into working in the NHS a couple of days a week and the baggage they might bring it poses all sorts of risks. I can just imagine the already run ragged NHS staff having to 'shadow' some dodgy characters in the workplace being very grateful for all the extra work. The thought of having lightly supervised and poorly trained unemployed folk working a couple of days a week amongst physically and/or mentally compromised people scares the shit out of me! Last time I was an inpatient the nurses in the orthopedic ward had their hands full keeping tabs on a junkie patient and keeping him away from other patients belongings, drugs, syringes, etc. last thing they would want is having to do the same for the unemployed folk working on 'community service'.

Despite no tuition fees and a bursary in Scotland we are still struggling to recruit to nurse undergraduate programmes in Scotland - see RCN article. We have unfilled places on degree programmes. Numbers into University are down every year for the last 6 years. It will take far more to retain let alone grow the nursing workforce going forward as more leave than enter the workforce. Couple this with flatlining numbers of school leavers going forward over next 10+ years then it is only going to get more difficult to train our own workforce hence the reliance on immigration.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ata-190724

Not everyone on benefits is ‘dodgy’ mate, and of course there would be costs, training, vetting etc
Perhaps then just portering or wipe oldies shit up in care homes ?

Or even working holistically - put them to work on building a new clinic someplace ? Perhaps even train them a useful skill ? You have jumped to several conclusions there that they are all peadosnuff violen druggies and I was saying they should be brain surgeons on day one!

If scotlands hiring woes continue , would they perhaps increase if benefits were not so freely given out without some kind of commitment ?
The whole country has about 2m people ‘too sick ‘ to work, plenty there are just having a laugh and really could be arm twisting into some kind of work for their money. Insults the genuinely ill and too sick to work who have to do degrading tests.

I never said everyone on benefits is dodgy and I didnt jump to any conclusions! Portering involves patient contact, often on 1:1 basis and requires knowledge of hospital, how it works, infection control, etc. Wiping oldies shit up usually done by a care worker who needs to be trained, vetted, supervised, etc.The NHS trains lots of folk, it has one of the highest % of degree or higher qualified staff in the UK, but asking them to train even more folk will cost money it doesn't have. Others can answer about the construction industry etc.

Scotlands NHS hiring woes as you describe them are small in comparison to part of England, NHS in SE is propped up by a workforce of whom over 25% are from abroad.

I dont disagree about the need to reduce folk not working and claiming benefits however it is just too easy to throw out the usual 'solutions' like get them working in the NHS or conscription without knowing or thinking through the reality of the situation!

[Tichtheid]

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

Pot hole repairs are often outsourced to contractors. The contractor would have to accept staff they have no previous experience of, haven't interviewed or vetted and train them how to do a job. There is the issue of liability if anything goes wrong, if a pothole wasn't repaired properly and was the cause of an accident from a blown tyre to swerving and hitting someone's car or hitting a pedestrian - if I was a contractor I wouldn't be accepting liability under those circumstances.

In my job as a fencing contractor I was responsible for livestock not getting out of the enclosed area, no way would I accept anyone who I didn't know and trust to do that job. The job itself uses a lot of very dangerous tools - chainsaws, augurs, post driver, tractor. I'd be fucked if I let anyone use those tools, even under supervision - you can't stand over someone all day making sure they don't lose a limb.

Those are just the first two examples I can think of.

I don’t think there’s a huge argument for people on benefits taking skilled jobs from contractors, but the state of just about any large town or city suggests we are crying out for more litter pickers etc. My local station had nice floral displays until the station manager who did it as a hobby retired - this kind of thing would be nice to see more of

Someone I know spent years on PIP and equivalents, was depressed, crippling back pain etc., got convinced to apply for a job as a postie and lo and behold 3 months later he’s happy and his back pain has cleared up. I don’t believe the stat that 25% of the country is disabled is real, there’s a fair proportion of that number who are people like him and if the government can force them out the house it would be a huge net win for them individually and the country as a whole

I agree with what you are saying there, or most of it. I believe that everyone should pull their weight where they can and that includes the better off contributing properly and that corporations in particular should pay their way when they are making huge profits by selling products or services to the rest of us.

I also believe that working can have many more benefits than just income, the company/camaraderie, the satisfaction of paying your way, the physical and mental health benefits of getting out of the house, I believe in all of that. What I don't believe in is de-valuing a job by saying someone should do it for "free" - ie nothing more than the UC or Jobseeker's allowance they are already on - without being penalised either. If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

An anecdote - I spent six years acting as a representative of someone who was signed off sick. He was very ill and not able to work, this after nearly forty years of being in full-time employment. I'll cut a very long story short but by the time he was signed off properly he had reached state pension age so they promised to not dock his benefits any more. He died a few months later.

No one can promise me this won't happen to others if someone's benefits were dependant on a job like litter picking - if I was an employer I really wouldn't want someone like my friend anywhere near my place of work

[robmatic]

I don’t think there’s a huge argument for people on benefits taking skilled jobs from contractors, but the state of just about any large town or city suggests we are crying out for more litter pickers etc. My local station had nice floral displays until the station manager who did it as a hobby retired - this kind of thing would be nice to see more of

If government was in any way joined up, you would just pay people an actual wage for doing these things on the basis that the wage was mostly being being met by savings in benefits expenditure. We can't do that sort of accounting though.

[robmatic]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

[Paddington Bear]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

On a GP sub-reddit a junior GP worked out that a number of his patients on benefits take home (net) more than he does! There’s some ludicrously perverse incentives in our system and as ever the system is needlessly bureaucratic and cruel for those in genuine needs whilst actively encouraging and rewarding bad actors.

The stuff that’s blown up around motability is a fine example

[Tichtheid]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

I don't think benefits pay more than minimum wage, but if "John" goes from benefits to a litter picking job then his benefits will be taken away from him. (some jobs are only a few hours per week). Then John will need to apply for Universal Credit to raise the difference between whatever his income is and his living costs - nearly 40% of UC claimants are in work due to the low wages.

PB - minimum wage for a GP is £69K

Benefit Caps are explained here https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... 20children)%20in%20Greater%20London

[SaintK]

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

A huge over generalisation and you can fuck right off.
Bet you have private health care for yourself and your family

Don’t try and deny there is generational bigotry that’s endemic , you can go down the semantics of my use of the word ‘all’ if you want as that’s exactly the kind of self righteousness I’d expect of someone your age. Current oaps have had an absolute armchair ride their entire life especially with regards to the entitlement for current provision that they have greatly underpaid for.
Even the non reform voters have underpaid relative to their burden of triple locks & free knee OP’s and piss bags.

And of course I have private healthcare too, unsure what your point is here apart from usual old person rant - doesn’t mean I don’t use NHs greatly as I’ve previously mentioned. And yes, I also underpay, that’s the whole point re I don’t think it’s properly funded at all.

I didn't try to deny anything. It's your cuntish edgelord take on everything I find somewhat repulsive.
Some OAP's do have an armchair ride, particularly middle class baby boomers but again you are making your usual scattergun generalisations as there are thousands if not millions that don't.
Can't remember when I or any of my family last used the NHS other than for a blood test or flu jabs etc and the odd rugby injury over the years for my son and I. I guess we are luckier than most?
I've no idea what you are referring to with regard to "non reform voters"
I too have private health care as does my daughter and my son and his family. We shouldn't need to really if the NHS was organised and managed properly though it hasn't helped that Tories left it to rot and fall apart for 15 years
I would happily pay more in tax to improve the NHS, however it needs a lot more than additional funding.

[Yeeb]

A huge over generalisation and you can fuck right off.
Bet you have private health care for yourself and your family

Don’t try and deny there is generational bigotry that’s endemic , you can go down the semantics of my use of the word ‘all’ if you want as that’s exactly the kind of self righteousness I’d expect of someone your age. Current oaps have had an absolute armchair ride their entire life especially with regards to the entitlement for current provision that they have greatly underpaid for.
Even the non reform voters have underpaid relative to their burden of triple locks & free knee OP’s and piss bags.

And of course I have private healthcare too, unsure what your point is here apart from usual old person rant - doesn’t mean I don’t use NHs greatly as I’ve previously mentioned. And yes, I also underpay, that’s the whole point re I don’t think it’s properly funded at all.

I didn't try to deny anything. It's your cuntish edgelord take on everything I find somewhat repulsive.
Some OAP's do have an armchair ride, particularly middle class baby boomers but again you are making your usual scattergun generalisations as there are thousands if not millions that don't.
Can't remember when I or any of my family last used the NHS other than for a blood test or flu jabs etc and the odd rugby injury over the years for my son and I. I guess we are luckier than most?
I've no idea what you are referring to with regard to "non reform voters"
I too have private health care as does my daughter and my son and his family. We shouldn't need to really if the NHS was organised and managed properly though it hasn't helped that Tories left it to rot and fall apart for 15 years
I would happily pay more in tax to improve the NHS, however it needs a lot more than additional funding.

Calm down grandpa, it’s hardly cuntish it’s factual, oldies haven’t paid nearly enough for their money or healthcare and are entitled to fuck as you are proving. You say you’d happily pay more tax blah blah but the last 3-4 decades have proved your generation completely have not been happy to properly fund stuff, just continual can kicking down the road. You just seem put out that I said all old gits whinge about benefits claimants / immigrants / yoof ? Pure semantics old bean , their trend is actually beleive what I often pastiche as a cunty edgelord.

Look at how the oldies actually vote , write about in social media , and are in the majority , and wake up from your posh anti Tory slumber (the Tories ruined nhs schtick is very old hat, if it were true things should improve now Labour are in yep…)

Oh and actually it’s you being a massive cunt, sneering at me over private healthcare yet having it yourself ? Typical I’m all right jack boomer ;)

[Yeeb]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

I don't think benefits pay more than minimum wage, but if "John" goes from benefits to a litter picking job then his benefits will be taken away from him. (some jobs are only a few hours per week). Then John will need to apply for Universal Credit to raise the difference between whatever his income is and his living costs - nearly 40% of UC claimants are in work due to the low wages.

PB - minimum wage for a GP is £69K

Benefit Caps are explained here https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... 20children)%20in%20Greater%20London

It should be that if john doesn’t gonlitter picking , he loses his benefit. Taxing the very poorest is daft and inefficient , welfare should always be a support and not a trap because who would bother to work if it meant neglibale or negative change in their finances ?

[Yeeb]

Not sure the idea of having 'civilian conscription' into the NHS is a good idea! Jimmy Saville springs to mind!

Patient and individual safety, patient confidentiality, cost, security, etc are all worries. The NHS already utilizes motivated volunteers but it isn't a free/cheap option and is small numbers. It also has a range of other employment opportunities for folk ie modern apprenticeships, school/University experience placements, etc. These are difficult to run, need high levels of supervision and cost a lot of money. When you think of the range of people who might be 'forced' into working in the NHS a couple of days a week and the baggage they might bring it poses all sorts of risks. I can just imagine the already run ragged NHS staff having to 'shadow' some dodgy characters in the workplace being very grateful for all the extra work. The thought of having lightly supervised and poorly trained unemployed folk working a couple of days a week amongst physically and/or mentally compromised people scares the shit out of me! Last time I was an inpatient the nurses in the orthopedic ward had their hands full keeping tabs on a junkie patient and keeping him away from other patients belongings, drugs, syringes, etc. last thing they would want is having to do the same for the unemployed folk working on 'community service'.

Despite no tuition fees and a bursary in Scotland we are still struggling to recruit to nurse undergraduate programmes in Scotland - see RCN article. We have unfilled places on degree programmes. Numbers into University are down every year for the last 6 years. It will take far more to retain let alone grow the nursing workforce going forward as more leave than enter the workforce. Couple this with flatlining numbers of school leavers going forward over next 10+ years then it is only going to get more difficult to train our own workforce hence the reliance on immigration.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/ ... ata-190724

Not everyone on benefits is ‘dodgy’ mate, and of course there would be costs, training, vetting etc
Perhaps then just portering or wipe oldies shit up in care homes ?

Or even working holistically - put them to work on building a new clinic someplace ? Perhaps even train them a useful skill ? You have jumped to several conclusions there that they are all peadosnuff violen druggies and I was saying they should be brain surgeons on day one!

If scotlands hiring woes continue , would they perhaps increase if benefits were not so freely given out without some kind of commitment ?
The whole country has about 2m people ‘too sick ‘ to work, plenty there are just having a laugh and really could be arm twisting into some kind of work for their money. Insults the genuinely ill and too sick to work who have to do degrading tests.

I never said everyone on benefits is dodgy and I didnt jump to any conclusions! Portering involves patient contact, often on 1:1 basis and requires knowledge of hospital, how it works, infection control, etc. Wiping oldies shit up usually done by a care worker who needs to be trained, vetted, supervised, etc.The NHS trains lots of folk, it has one of the highest % of degree or higher qualified staff in the UK, but asking them to train even more folk will cost money it doesn't have. Others can answer about the construction industry etc.

Scotlands NHS hiring woes as you describe them are small in comparison to part of England, NHS in SE is propped up by a workforce of whom over 25% are from abroad.

I dont disagree about the need to reduce folk not working and claiming benefits however it is just too easy to throw out the usual 'solutions' like get them working in the NHS or conscription without knowing or thinking through the reality of the situation!

So perhaps then helping the nhs in a non patient contact way then like building a hospital , maintaining its grounds , helping delivering a few crates of piss bags , that sort of thing ?

[SaintK]

Don’t try and deny there is generational bigotry that’s endemic , you can go down the semantics of my use of the word ‘all’ if you want as that’s exactly the kind of self righteousness I’d expect of someone your age. Current oaps have had an absolute armchair ride their entire life especially with regards to the entitlement for current provision that they have greatly underpaid for.
Even the non reform voters have underpaid relative to their burden of triple locks & free knee OP’s and piss bags.

And of course I have private healthcare too, unsure what your point is here apart from usual old person rant - doesn’t mean I don’t use NHs greatly as I’ve previously mentioned. And yes, I also underpay, that’s the whole point re I don’t think it’s properly funded at all.

I didn't try to deny anything. It's your cuntish edgelord take on everything I find somewhat repulsive.
Some OAP's do have an armchair ride, particularly middle class baby boomers but again you are making your usual scattergun generalisations as there are thousands if not millions that don't.
Can't remember when I or any of my family last used the NHS other than for a blood test or flu jabs etc and the odd rugby injury over the years for my son and I. I guess we are luckier than most?
I've no idea what you are referring to with regard to "non reform voters"
I too have private health care as does my daughter and my son and his family. We shouldn't need to really if the NHS was organised and managed properly though it hasn't helped that Tories left it to rot and fall apart for 15 years
I would happily pay more in tax to improve the NHS, however it needs a lot more than additional funding.

Calm down grandpa, it’s hardly cuntish it’s factual, oldies haven’t paid nearly enough for their money or healthcare and are entitled to fuck as you are proving. You say you’d happily pay more tax blah blah but the last 3-4 decades have proved your generation completely have not been happy to properly fund stuff, just continual can kicking down the road. You just seem put out that I said all old gits whinge about benefits claimants / immigrants / yoof ? Pure semantics old bean , their trend is actually beleive what I often pastiche as a cunty edgelord.

Look at how the oldies actually vote , write about in social media , and are in the majority , and wake up from your posh anti Tory slumber (the Tories ruined nhs schtick is very old hat, if it were true things should improve now Labour are in yep…)

Oh and actually it’s you being a massive cunt, sneering at me over private healthcare yet having it yourself ? Typical I’m all right jack boomer ;)

Yet more over-generalisation
If the sneering, massive cunts like me have done fuck all about it (though we have little influence as to what governments actually do whoever we vote for) what is it that youngsters like you are going to do to put it right then ?
Oh and I was lucky enough to have healthcare cover most of my working life and made a calculated financial call to continue it after I retired

[Biffer]

It's complicated indeed. The NHS is a fucking basket case ATM. I had the misfortune to go to A&E recently and it was a fucking horrific experience.
Waited for ages in an archaic system,given misdiagnosis by coçky nurses who weren't qualified to do so. Serious issue.
It ls not fit for purpose. I hate working in the NHS and will fuck off for good as early as I can. Labour have no clue whatsoever what to do. Streeting is utterly clueless.

Sorry you’ve had a bad experience recently on it, location really is a lottery, my little part of SW London is pretty fucking amazing tbf when we’ve had to use it for A&E (rugby days then more recently kids inc my middle one who has allergies and can get seriously ill seriously quickly as we’ve found out), mundane kids stuff, my stupid gout, covid - all dealt with quickly and well and by nice people.

Oldies take up about 75% of the cost of the nhs so they should really pay for it, I have little sympathy for current crop of oaps who all whinge about immigrants , benefits scroungers etc without appreciating just how little they cost the state v oldies.

First thing I’d do with nhs is properly set up a pipeline of tuition fee free training to get the staff the nhs needs instead of importing and having to use pricey bank staff. Would take five years minimum to see anything though.
Second thing I’d do is pretty much force anyone able to, to work for nhs or fill potholes etc to get their benefits. Kind of a civilian conscription if you will.

What are the arguments against getting folk on benefits to do a couple of days community work a month? Cost is one I'd imagine

They'd end up doing jobs previously done by paid employees which would end up with more people unemployed.

[sockwithaticket]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

Ah, well here's the nub of the thing. Minimum wage, even with the recent increase, isn't the actual living wage. Benefits are supposed to give people the amount they need to live. It's a travesty that we still have a minimum wage that lags it, but that means minimum wage is too low, not that benefits are too high (necessarily).

Employers have gotten away with paying shit wages for decades at this point because the state won't raise the minimum wage to the appropriate rate and tops up the difference with benefits for those in work. Employers can bitch and moan about national insurance increases all they like, but many of them are still a long, long way from actually paying their workers the necessary, let alone a respectable, amount.

[Yeeb]

I didn't try to deny anything. It's your cuntish edgelord take on everything I find somewhat repulsive.
Some OAP's do have an armchair ride, particularly middle class baby boomers but again you are making your usual scattergun generalisations as there are thousands if not millions that don't.
Can't remember when I or any of my family last used the NHS other than for a blood test or flu jabs etc and the odd rugby injury over the years for my son and I. I guess we are luckier than most?
I've no idea what you are referring to with regard to "non reform voters"
I too have private health care as does my daughter and my son and his family. We shouldn't need to really if the NHS was organised and managed properly though it hasn't helped that Tories left it to rot and fall apart for 15 years
I would happily pay more in tax to improve the NHS, however it needs a lot more than additional funding.

Calm down grandpa, it’s hardly cuntish it’s factual, oldies haven’t paid nearly enough for their money or healthcare and are entitled to fuck as you are proving. You say you’d happily pay more tax blah blah but the last 3-4 decades have proved your generation completely have not been happy to properly fund stuff, just continual can kicking down the road. You just seem put out that I said all old gits whinge about benefits claimants / immigrants / yoof ? Pure semantics old bean , their trend is actually beleive what I often pastiche as a cunty edgelord.

Look at how the oldies actually vote , write about in social media , and are in the majority , and wake up from your posh anti Tory slumber (the Tories ruined nhs schtick is very old hat, if it were true things should improve now Labour are in yep…)

Oh and actually it’s you being a massive cunt, sneering at me over private healthcare yet having it yourself ? Typical I’m all right jack boomer ;)

Yet more over-generalisation
If the sneering, massive cunts like me have done fuck all about it (though we have little influence as to what governments actually do whoever we vote for) what is it that youngsters like you are going to do to put it right then ?
Oh and I was lucky enough to have healthcare cover most of my working life and made a calculated financial call to continue it after I retired

Ah put a sock in it boomer , had no influence boo hoo just picked up cheap everything and index linked free money forever - thought you said you’d be happy to pay more for the nhs ? Real shame then your generation consistently voted and acted otherwise and none of you ever blame them forrins, no sirree

[Paddington Bear]

If there is need for litter pickers then train them and pay them the going rate, which is probably minimum wage, so they will need UC top ups too.

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

Ah, well here's the nub of the thing. Minimum wage, even with the recent increase, isn't the actual living wage. Benefits are supposed to give people the amount they need to live. It's a travesty that we still have a minimum wage that lags it, but that means minimum wage is too low, not that benefits are too high (necessarily).

Employers have gotten away with paying shit wages for decades at this point because the state won't raise the minimum wage to the appropriate rate and tops up the difference with benefits for those in work. Employers can bitch and moan about national insurance increases all they like, but many of them are still a long, long way from actually paying their workers the necessary, let alone a respectable, amount.

Minimum wage at over £12 - this narrative starts to become old hat

[SaintK]

Calm down grandpa, it’s hardly cuntish it’s factual, oldies haven’t paid nearly enough for their money or healthcare and are entitled to fuck as you are proving. You say you’d happily pay more tax blah blah but the last 3-4 decades have proved your generation completely have not been happy to properly fund stuff, just continual can kicking down the road. You just seem put out that I said all old gits whinge about benefits claimants / immigrants / yoof ? Pure semantics old bean , their trend is actually beleive what I often pastiche as a cunty edgelord.

Look at how the oldies actually vote , write about in social media , and are in the majority , and wake up from your posh anti Tory slumber (the Tories ruined nhs schtick is very old hat, if it were true things should improve now Labour are in yep…)

Oh and actually it’s you being a massive cunt, sneering at me over private healthcare yet having it yourself ? Typical I’m all right jack boomer ;)

Yet more over-generalisation
If the sneering, massive cunts like me have done fuck all about it (though we have little influence as to what governments actually do whoever we vote for) what is it that youngsters like you are going to do to put it right then ?
Oh and I was lucky enough to have healthcare cover most of my working life and made a calculated financial call to continue it after I retired

Ah put a sock in it boomer , had no influence boo hoo just picked up cheap everything and index linked free money forever - thought you said you’d be happy to pay more for the nhs ? Real shame then your generation consistently voted and acted otherwise and none of you ever blame them forrins, no sirree

Fuck off
I moved to this forum to get away from shitfights
You got perma banned from the other place for inciting shitfights
Moving on.......................

[Biffer]

Yet more over-generalisation
If the sneering, massive cunts like me have done fuck all about it (though we have little influence as to what governments actually do whoever we vote for) what is it that youngsters like you are going to do to put it right then ?
Oh and I was lucky enough to have healthcare cover most of my working life and made a calculated financial call to continue it after I retired

Ah put a sock in it boomer , had no influence boo hoo just picked up cheap everything and index linked free money forever - thought you said you’d be happy to pay more for the nhs ? Real shame then your generation consistently voted and acted otherwise and none of you ever blame them forrins, no sirree

Fuck off
I moved to this forum to get away from shitfights
You got perma banned from the other place for inciting shitfights
Moving on.......................

Stop putting 50p in the arsehole

[SaintK]

Ah put a sock in it boomer , had no influence boo hoo just picked up cheap everything and index linked free money forever - thought you said you’d be happy to pay more for the nhs ? Real shame then your generation consistently voted and acted otherwise and none of you ever blame them forrins, no sirree

Fuck off
I moved to this forum to get away from shitfights
You got perma banned from the other place for inciting shitfights
Moving on.......................

Stop putting 50p in the arsehole

Quite. Shouldn't feed the troll, apologies

[dpedin]

Not everyone on benefits is ‘dodgy’ mate, and of course there would be costs, training, vetting etc
Perhaps then just portering or wipe oldies shit up in care homes ?

Or even working holistically - put them to work on building a new clinic someplace ? Perhaps even train them a useful skill ? You have jumped to several conclusions there that they are all peadosnuff violen druggies and I was saying they should be brain surgeons on day one!

If scotlands hiring woes continue , would they perhaps increase if benefits were not so freely given out without some kind of commitment ?
The whole country has about 2m people ‘too sick ‘ to work, plenty there are just having a laugh and really could be arm twisting into some kind of work for their money. Insults the genuinely ill and too sick to work who have to do degrading tests.

I never said everyone on benefits is dodgy and I didnt jump to any conclusions! Portering involves patient contact, often on 1:1 basis and requires knowledge of hospital, how it works, infection control, etc. Wiping oldies shit up usually done by a care worker who needs to be trained, vetted, supervised, etc.The NHS trains lots of folk, it has one of the highest % of degree or higher qualified staff in the UK, but asking them to train even more folk will cost money it doesn't have. Others can answer about the construction industry etc.

Scotlands NHS hiring woes as you describe them are small in comparison to part of England, NHS in SE is propped up by a workforce of whom over 25% are from abroad.

I dont disagree about the need to reduce folk not working and claiming benefits however it is just too easy to throw out the usual 'solutions' like get them working in the NHS or conscription without knowing or thinking through the reality of the situation!

So perhaps then helping the nhs in a non patient contact way then like building a hospital , maintaining its grounds , helping delivering a few crates of piss bags , that sort of thing ?

NHS doesn't build hospitals, that's contracted out to specialist firms. Grounds maintenance might be an option but even areas like security, car parking etc have more to them in the NHS context than meets the eye. For example many have to deal with members of the public who are very anxious, worried, scared or compromised in some way medically or with drugs/alcohol, etc so they do need good skills in communication, managing conflict, etc. Working in procurement/supplies is difficult because of the nature of the products they handle ie drugs, medical devices, syringes, etc so opportunities might be limited. Many areas that might be suitable have been contracted out ie catering/kitchens, laundries, etc.

Not trying to be awkward but once you get into the nitty gritty of the reality of the NHS work context then the opportunity for suitable work placements is pretty limited! I know many other industries are the same where the last thing they need is the additional burden, costs and risks of offering placements to temp employees. It just aint worth it for many.

[sockwithaticket]

This is absolutely nuts to me. Why should benefits pay more than the minimum wage?

Ah, well here's the nub of the thing. Minimum wage, even with the recent increase, isn't the actual living wage. Benefits are supposed to give people the amount they need to live. It's a travesty that we still have a minimum wage that lags it, but that means minimum wage is too low, not that benefits are too high (necessarily).

Employers have gotten away with paying shit wages for decades at this point because the state won't raise the minimum wage to the appropriate rate and tops up the difference with benefits for those in work. Employers can bitch and moan about national insurance increases all they like, but many of them are still a long, long way from actually paying their workers the necessary, let alone a respectable, amount.

Minimum wage at over £12 - this narrative starts to become old hat

It's better than leaving it be, but you really think £23.5k (rounding up) for a standard working week is a living wage?

[fishfoodie]

Ah, well here's the nub of the thing. Minimum wage, even with the recent increase, isn't the actual living wage. Benefits are supposed to give people the amount they need to live. It's a travesty that we still have a minimum wage that lags it, but that means minimum wage is too low, not that benefits are too high (necessarily).

Employers have gotten away with paying shit wages for decades at this point because the state won't raise the minimum wage to the appropriate rate and tops up the difference with benefits for those in work. Employers can bitch and moan about national insurance increases all they like, but many of them are still a long, long way from actually paying their workers the necessary, let alone a respectable, amount.

Minimum wage at over £12 - this narrative starts to become old hat

It's better than leaving it be, but you really think £23.5k (rounding up) for a standard working week is a living wage?

Does anyone know what percentage of workers on minimum wage actually get 40 hrs a week ?

If you have Ex-McD's employees complaining that their boss was looking for sex in return for more hours, that kinda tells you just having a minimum wages just isn't enough, & scumbag employers & managers need to be facing fines & prison time as well !

[Guy Smiley]

[Tichtheid]

Yeah that’s what’s-his-face’s window.

At the moment all the gains that were made inch by inch over decades are being driven back with baseball bats. Whining abour ‘elf and safety (which was really about people not getting killed at work) became whining about “PC gone mad”, now it’s “Woke”.
The NHS itself was fought tooth and nail by the Conservatives before it started and they’re still at it.