2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[OomStruisbaai]

Fuck that was a close call.

[Torquemada 1420]

Hmm: Toulouse get lucky just as Munster did yesterday with 3mm of whitewash coming to the rescue. Deserved a try.

[Torquemada 1420]

Graou and Ntamack slowing every phase down, making it an armchair ride for Sale in defence.

[Simian]

much more engaging game than I expected

[SaintK]

much more engaging game than I expected

Yep thought it would be one way to Toulouse
Fair play Sale

[Torquemada 1420]

Graou

[Torquemada 1420]

Ntamack

[Blackmac]

How can a top class ref not see the Toulouse offences at that maul.

[Torquemada 1420]

How can a top class ref not see the Toulouse offences at that maul.

I'm beginning to wonder if the laws are so complex that if every offence was officiated, we'd never get more than 20 secs of play. Consequently, most refs have areas of the laws they simply ignore. The smart teams have worked out what each ref's blind spot is and exploit/abuse it.

Oh. And Sale have done a pretty decent facsimile of Ire at the breakdown: repeatedly hanging on or lying on the wrong side just long enough for this ref.

[Torquemada 1420]

You can't crawl through a ruck on your hands... True, but for there to be a ruck, a Sale player would need to be on his feet and that hasn't happened much this game.

[Torquemada 1420]

Hah. Ntamack gone. So Ramos to FH then. Woulda like to have seen Costes on since he's been out of favour for months.

[Torquemada 1420]

Graou

[Torquemada 1420]

Touchline has been the best defender this w/e.

[Tichtheid]

Wee Ange is outrageous

[Torquemada 1420]

Nice. Keep the ball away from Graou and things flow.

[Oxbow]

A little genius.

[Tichtheid]

Oh no! He looks badly hurt now.

[Torquemada 1420]

Oh no! He looks badly hurt now.

FM

[Uncle fester]

Don't completely buy that he missed a sitter. Poor pass ment he was stopping and the cover was coming across very fast.

[Torquemada 1420]

I wondered how I'd f**ked up the KO time. Fre paratrooper making an arse of himself?

[Torquemada 1420]

Saints will make the semis. Great for entertainment but this comp system: they've avoided any of the decent Fre teams, Glasgow and Leinster.......... and get Castres again

[Tichtheid]

That was a knock on - you can't tip it forward and then tip it on to another player.

[westport]

Speedy recovery to Wee Ange, hope it is not too bad an injury

[OomStruisbaai]

Was hoping the Sharks get through.

[Paddington Bear]

You need to make your peace with English rugby being what it is, played and supported by the people it is. It’s not changing and bringing through a disproportionately private school group hasn’t stopped England and English clubs from being dominant in the past, nor caused major issues for Ireland whilst they’ve been dominant more recently.

The Premiership is a great league in a number of ways, defence is however very much secondary. Coupled with the fact that French squads seem double the size it has predictable results. And in truth I don’t think a single English side this year feels they can genuinely win the comp, so why take it too seriously when the Premiership has a wacky race for the playoffs incoming?

Northampton excepted for the obvious reason that despite putting 40 past a top 14 club they are out of the title race so may as well have a crack.

Your first paragraph is true and maybe too early to go Jim Morrisson and say it's the end, but Eng rugby seems to be in a lot of trouble from the top down.

Big article in the Torygraph about the Prem not bothering with defending. And it generally has made for a better spectacle (certainly more than the at least 50% of turgid sh*te we see in the T14 every week). However
i) It feels like we are reaching a bit of Harlem Globe Trotters about it all now. When defenders aren't even trying, racking up dozens of points just becomes cheapened.
ii) The reality is unless the laws of the game change substantially, the like of Saints cannot play to entertain when they can't get the ball.

I wouldn’t say English rugby is in total decline - 82,000 turn up regardless of who England are playing, the club game has a good tv deal and a committed broadcaster, 9 of the 10 prem clubs get good attendances (good of course is a relative concept but all are clearly healthy). The prem badly needs someone to buy Newcastle and/or invest in another side, admittedly, and the club game is likely in terminal decline. The latter isn’t unique though.

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

Broadly agree on defences and English sides playing without the ball, you saw with Sarries and Sale this weekend pretty brave efforts fall apart in the second half (one much more than the other), where it felt like they just couldn’t touch the ball and had no way of getting it.

[Kawazaki]

French paratrooper...




What an absolute tool.

[OomStruisbaai]

French paratrooper...




What an absolute tool.

Must be a Saffer from French Legion Forces.

[assfly]

Was hoping the Sharks get through.

The game was lost the second the team was announced. They played like a bunch of misfits. I didn't even recognise half of the bench. At least they had a nice trip to Lyon.

[Tichtheid]

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

[Paddington Bear]

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

[SaintK]

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

I'd say Gloucester.
Bristol have two football league clubs.
Bristol City are near the top of the Championship and get reasonabl crowds. Bristol Bears play at their stadium as it's also owned by Steve Landsdown

[Torquemada 1420]

I wouldn’t say English rugby is in total decline - 82,000 turn up regardless of who England are playing, the club game has a good tv deal and a committed broadcaster, 9 of the 10 prem clubs get good attendances (good of course is a relative concept but all are clearly healthy). The prem badly needs someone to buy Newcastle and/or invest in another side, admittedly, and the club game is likely in terminal decline. The latter isn’t unique though.

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

Broadly agree on defences and English sides playing without the ball, you saw with Sarries and Sale this weekend pretty brave efforts fall apart in the second half (one much more than the other), where it felt like they just couldn’t touch the ball and had no way of getting it.

I think we are in agreement. Even in France, participation nos are in decline: it's just starting from a higher base. Which is also why the "HEC" is so frustrating now: just when everyone could do with a shot in the arm, the people running the game come up with the least compelling spectacle imaginable.

English football is pretty much f**ked certainly from the entire Championship down and I'd argue that outside 6 or 7 teams in the Prem, the rest are making up the numbers. Yet again, the 3 promoted teams are going to go straight back down. Sport in general needs to take a reality check over the relationship between money (real and imagined), sustainability and competitiveness.

[Torquemada 1420]

French paratrooper...




What an absolute tool.

Yup. Only in France. Did you see what the guy's name was? You might need to use a translator

[Torquemada 1420]

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

There is a difference here;
- French rugby has gates all the way down the leagues. Pro 2 gets average gates of around 6k which I suspect isn't a mile behind the Prem?
- French football average gates outside the top 10 drop off quickly to below what most T14 clubs are pulling.

Tichtheid has a point though about sporting attendances as a whole: I suspect the Fre public watching is higher per capita than the UK.

2 other thoughts
- watching rugby in England is way more expensive than in France
- gate capacity is generally lower. What does Bath hold for example. Of course, many Fre clubs have the luxury of municipal stadiums.

[Paddington Bear]

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

I'd say Gloucester.
Bristol have two football league clubs.
Bristol City are near the top of the Championship and get reasonabl crowds. Bristol Bears play at their stadium as it's also owned by Steve Landsdown

Not sure how I left Gloucester off the list! Both Bristol football teams are both crap and poorly supported for the size of the place, it is the least football mad of England (Britain’s?) big cities

[Torquemada 1420]

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

You have a very disproportionate spread of clubs geographically. Broadly all located in a small area in the Midlands or the SW with the real possibility of only Sale existing in the North next season. Part of this comes down to the demographics again.

[PornDog]

You need to make your peace with English rugby being what it is, played and supported by the people it is. It’s not changing and bringing through a disproportionately private school group hasn’t stopped England and English clubs from being dominant in the past, nor caused major issues for Ireland whilst they’ve been dominant more recently.

The Premiership is a great league in a number of ways, defence is however very much secondary. Coupled with the fact that French squads seem double the size it has predictable results. And in truth I don’t think a single English side this year feels they can genuinely win the comp, so why take it too seriously when the Premiership has a wacky race for the playoffs incoming?

Northampton excepted for the obvious reason that despite putting 40 past a top 14 club they are out of the title race so may as well have a crack.

Your first paragraph is true and maybe too early to go Jim Morrisson and say it's the end, but Eng rugby seems to be in a lot of trouble from the top down.

Big article in the Torygraph about the Prem not bothering with defending. And it generally has made for a better spectacle (certainly more than the at least 50% of turgid sh*te we see in the T14 every week). However
i) It feels like we are reaching a bit of Harlem Globe Trotters about it all now. When defenders aren't even trying, racking up dozens of points just becomes cheapened.
ii) The reality is unless the laws of the game change substantially, the like of Saints cannot play to entertain when they can't get the ball.

I wouldn’t say English rugby is in total decline - 82,000 turn up regardless of who England are playing, the club game has a good tv deal and a committed broadcaster, 9 of the 10 prem clubs get good attendances (good of course is a relative concept but all are clearly healthy). The prem badly needs someone to buy Newcastle and/or invest in another side, admittedly, and the club game is likely in terminal decline. The latter isn’t unique though.

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

Broadly agree on defences and English sides playing without the ball, you saw with Sarries and Sale this weekend pretty brave efforts fall apart in the second half (one much more than the other), where it felt like they just couldn’t touch the ball and had no way of getting it.

The problem with English Rugby is not the salary cap per se but how it is being used. You guys over pay your top players trying to compete with the French - which you just can't afford to do!




That's your cue Toga!

[Paddington Bear]

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

There is a difference here;
- French rugby has gates all the way down the leagues. Pro 2 gets average gates of around 6k which I suspect isn't a mile behind the Prem?
- French football average gates outside the top 10 drop off quickly to below what most T14 clubs are pulling.

Tichtheid has a point though about sporting attendances as a whole: I suspect the Fre public watching is higher per capita than the UK.

2 other thoughts
- watching rugby in England is way more expensive than in France
- gate capacity is generally lower. What does Bath hold for example. Of course, many Fre clubs have the luxury of municipal stadiums.

Average prem gate is well over 10,000 so double the ProD2. Don’t think there’s any chance that France consumes more sport than Britain - there’s 92 football clubs who pretty much all get gates of 4/5,000+ (And a lot 5/10 times that and more), probably 90-100 more who are over 1,000, rugby we’re aware of, rugby league gates are pretty good, cricket does pretty well (there were 3,000 of us or so on an April Friday at Chelmsford!), tennis, golf etc etc. NFL/MLB in London is a guaranteed sell out, you get the idea. There’s pro ice hockey and basketball leagues as well. We also of course have three national rugby and football teams with comparable/larger gates than France.

[Torquemada 1420]

Not sure how I left Gloucester off the list! Both Bristol football teams are both crap and poorly supported for the size of the place, it is the least football mad of England (Britain’s?) big cities

Not sure about that. Maybe. If Forest had been sent down last season, which they should have been due to fiddling the books, you might have seen combined Nottingham attendances rivalling Bristol.

[Paddington Bear]

Football is popular in France but there is no comparison between the pro game there and what it is in England - League One boasts crowds that are similar to Premiership rugby and that’s over 40 teams down from the top! Even non-league games tend to attract crowds that dwarf the rugby Championship. The French league, as opposed to their national team, is a bit of a joke and lacks the crowds, interest and passion of English club football.

It’s not a shock that it’s places like Northampton, Bath, Bristol and Exeter that tend to be considered rugby hotbeds - there either isn’t a football team to compete with or the team(s) are rubbish.

You have a very disproportionate spread of clubs geographically. Broadly all located in a small area in the Midlands or the SW with the real possibility of only Sale existing in the North next season. Part of this comes down to the demographics again.

No argument here. Even in my fairly leafy north/north of London suburban life rugby is very very much a minority pursuit. Football is everything