2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Torquemada 1420]

Average prem gate is well over 10,000 so double the ProD2. Don’t think there’s any chance that France consumes more sport than Britain - there’s 92 football clubs who pretty much all get gates of 4/5,000+ (And a lot 5/10 times that and more), probably 90-100 more who are over 1,000, rugby we’re aware of, rugby league gates are pretty good, cricket does pretty well (there were 3,000 of us or so on an April Friday at Chelmsford!), tennis, golf etc etc. NFL/MLB in London is a guaranteed sell out, you get the idea. There’s pro ice hockey and basketball leagues as well. We also of course have three national rugby and football teams with comparable/larger gates than France.

Definitely true in regards football. Doubt even Italian of Spanish attendances aggregate to as much professionally. I'm not sure across all other sports combined. I can tell you the 2 small rugby clubs I've had connections with (Sarcelles and Chauray) will often pull home gates in excess of 1,000.

[dpedin]

Your first paragraph is true and maybe too early to go Jim Morrisson and say it's the end, but Eng rugby seems to be in a lot of trouble from the top down.

Big article in the Torygraph about the Prem not bothering with defending. And it generally has made for a better spectacle (certainly more than the at least 50% of turgid sh*te we see in the T14 every week). However
i) It feels like we are reaching a bit of Harlem Globe Trotters about it all now. When defenders aren't even trying, racking up dozens of points just becomes cheapened.
ii) The reality is unless the laws of the game change substantially, the like of Saints cannot play to entertain when they can't get the ball.

I wouldn’t say English rugby is in total decline - 82,000 turn up regardless of who England are playing, the club game has a good tv deal and a committed broadcaster, 9 of the 10 prem clubs get good attendances (good of course is a relative concept but all are clearly healthy). The prem badly needs someone to buy Newcastle and/or invest in another side, admittedly, and the club game is likely in terminal decline. The latter isn’t unique though.

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

Broadly agree on defences and English sides playing without the ball, you saw with Sarries and Sale this weekend pretty brave efforts fall apart in the second half (one much more than the other), where it felt like they just couldn’t touch the ball and had no way of getting it.

The problem with English Rugby is not the salary cap per se but how it is being used. You guys over pay your top players trying to compete with the French - which you just can't afford to do!




That's your cue Toga!

English rugby has never properly dealt with the spivs who almost brought down the whole pro game and the incompetence of the RFU. Both have done untold damage to the game, most obviously with the loss of Wasps, LI and Worcester. There is lots of money and opportunity within the English game and the product could be even better but it needs a proper serious change in the structure and governance arrangements in order to become what it should be. Trying to replicate a French Top14 model or complaining about the URC model because of results doesn't really cut it, every country has had to develop a model that works for its circumstances. English rugby just needs to be realistic about what is the best operating model for England and go for it. There is a great product and a big audience base there but I feel sorry for the vast majority of supporters and most of the clubs trying to make it work, often with one hand tied behind their back.

[Paddington Bear]

Average prem gate is well over 10,000 so double the ProD2. Don’t think there’s any chance that France consumes more sport than Britain - there’s 92 football clubs who pretty much all get gates of 4/5,000+ (And a lot 5/10 times that and more), probably 90-100 more who are over 1,000, rugby we’re aware of, rugby league gates are pretty good, cricket does pretty well (there were 3,000 of us or so on an April Friday at Chelmsford!), tennis, golf etc etc. NFL/MLB in London is a guaranteed sell out, you get the idea. There’s pro ice hockey and basketball leagues as well. We also of course have three national rugby and football teams with comparable/larger gates than France.

Definitely true in regards football. Doubt even Italian of Spanish attendances aggregate to as much professionally. I'm not sure across all other sports combined. I can tell you the 2 small rugby clubs I've had connections with (Sarcelles and Chauray) will often pull home gates in excess of 1,000.

We did junior home and away tours with Carmaux near Albi. Small town, middle of nowhere and as you say gates well over 1,000. Only happens in football here

[Uncle fester]

We certainly operate in a much more competitive sports market than French rugby does - English club football is a behemoth that there’s precious little we can do to stop, and not just the Premier League or even the Championship. The same is just not true in France and has given rugby it’s opening.

I could follow the rest f your post but I'm not sure about this - football is hugely popular in France, especially in the cities. My experience of sport from living in France was that there is a huge backing for and interest in many sports - football, tennis, rugby union, rugby league, golf, cycling, handball, fencing and probably many more. Hunting is very popular as a participation though I'd hesitate to call it a sport, many do though. There are particular cultural sports too, I saw lots of pelota courts in the Basque Country.

The pressure on many sports in France comes from the diversity of pastimes but football is still the big gun there.

My experience is a long time ago now, I'd be interested to hear from our French posters if that experience is still valid.

Yep, England, Ireland and Scotland have a form of sporting sectarianism going on. You play or follow one sport so you absolutely don't play or follow the others.

That doesn't really exist in France. They pretty much follow all sports.

[Torquemada 1420]

Yep, England, Ireland and Scotland have a form of sporting sectarianism going on. You play or follow one sport so you absolutely don't play or follow the others.

That doesn't really exist in France. They pretty much follow all sports.

As I keep saying, it's a class thing. My football supporting friends in Eng aren't antipathetic to rugby, they actively hate it. They pretty much see my interest in rugby as a sort of betrayal, only partly allayed by the understanding that in France, it is pretty much a working classes game (albeit historically rural working classes).

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Yep, England, Ireland and Scotland have a form of sporting sectarianism going on. You play or follow one sport so you absolutely don't play or follow the others.

That doesn't really exist in France. They pretty much follow all sports.

As I keep saying, it's a class thing. My football supporting friends in Eng aren't antipathetic to rugby, they actively hate it. They pretty much see my interest in rugby as a sort of betrayal, only partly allayed by the understanding that in France, it is pretty much a working classes game (albeit historically rural working classes).

That's unusual. Most football fans don't think like that about rugby, they don't think about it period. It would be about as relevant as extreme ironing outside the 6N, and even then what might stir their interest is pubs showing the 6N rather than Soccer Saturday

[Kawazaki]

French paratrooper...




What an absolute tool.

Yup. Only in France. Did you see what the guy's name was? You might need to use a translator

Was it Monsieur Merd?

[Torquemada 1420]

Yep, England, Ireland and Scotland have a form of sporting sectarianism going on. You play or follow one sport so you absolutely don't play or follow the others.

That doesn't really exist in France. They pretty much follow all sports.

As I keep saying, it's a class thing. My football supporting friends in Eng aren't antipathetic to rugby, they actively hate it. They pretty much see my interest in rugby as a sort of betrayal, only partly allayed by the understanding that in France, it is pretty much a working classes game (albeit historically rural working classes).

That's unusual. Most football fans don't think like that about rugby, they don't think about it period. It would be about as relevant as extreme ironing outside the 6N, and even then what might stir their interest is pubs showing the 6N rather than Soccer Saturday

I really don't think that's the case: try posting on any of the football forums or social media platforms. Especially if you dare to suggest footballers can learn from rugby players in regards cheating onfield.

[Torquemada 1420]

French paratrooper...




What an absolute tool.

Yup. Only in France. Did you see what the guy's name was? You might need to use a translator

Was it Monsieur Merd?

May as well have been. Kinda translates as a "funk".

[westport]

Great that Wee Ange "only" suffered a big sprain of the right ankle and not a fracture as feared at the beginning

[Tichtheid]

Great that Wee Ange "only" suffered a big sprain of the right ankle and not a fracture as feared at the beginning

Good news, though ankle ligaments can be a bugger to heal. The sooner he's back the better - what a talent he is.

[shaggy]

As I keep saying, it's a class thing. My football supporting friends in Eng aren't antipathetic to rugby, they actively hate it. They pretty much see my interest in rugby as a sort of betrayal, only partly allayed by the understanding that in France, it is pretty much a working classes game (albeit historically rural working classes).

That's unusual. Most football fans don't think like that about rugby, they don't think about it period. It would be about as relevant as extreme ironing outside the 6N, and even then what might stir their interest is pubs showing the 6N rather than Soccer Saturday

I really don't think that's the case: try posting on any of the football forums or social media platforms. Especially if you dare to suggest footballers can learn from rugby players in regards cheating onfield.

It might just be a reaction to you. You do come across as very needy.

[Paddington Bear]

There’s definitely a sub-section of football fandom which has an antipathy to rugby which doesn’t exist toward cricket

[Biffer]

Semi final venues announced

https://www.epcrugby.com/european-profe ... progresses

[Torquemada 1420]

It might just be a reaction to you. You do come across as very needy.

Kerrist, pop psychology from another public school twonk.

I think it's more likely that it's the likes of you they hate and rugby is simply a proxy for that class divide.

[shaggy]

It might just be a reaction to you. You do come across as very needy.

Kerrist, pop psychology from another public school twonk.

I think it's more likely that it's the likes of you they hate and rugby is simply a proxy for that class divide.

You really are an odd person. Not privately educated, have friends in high places and low places and certainly not pretending to be a psychologist. Just find you rather strange in your belief about England and rugby.

[Kawazaki]

There’s definitely a sub-section of football fandom which has an antipathy to rugby which doesn’t exist toward cricket

Football fans think they'd comfortably kick the crap out of cricketers if the need arose. They're less confident with rugby types.

It's likely this simple.

[OomStruisbaai]

Henco Venter got 6 weeks, Neethling Fouche 4 weeks. It don't make sense at all.

[assfly]

Henco Venter got 6 weeks, Neethling Fouche 4 weeks. It don't make sense at all.

The lesson here is if you want a player ruled out for a few weeks, get them in a headlock and let them retaliate.

[Kawazaki]

Henco Venter got 6 weeks, Neethling Fouche 4 weeks. It don't make sense at all.

The lesson here is if you want a player ruled out for a few weeks, get them in a headlock and let them retaliate.

Is that the lesson after the 'keep your hands away from opponents eyes' tutorial?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Henco Venter got 6 weeks, Neethling Fouche 4 weeks. It don't make sense at all.

The lesson here is if you want a player ruled out for a few weeks, get them in a headlock and let them retaliate.

Is the issue one got too little or too much, if so which one, and why?

I'd have some sympathy with Fouche given the ball carrier dropped so low had Fouche been attempting a tackle, given he only attempted a shoulder charge I'm pretty much out of sympathy.

[Tichtheid]

The whole citing and tribunal system is a joke and it's made worse by the inconsistencies - there was an incident this season where Glasgow's Stafford McDowall was given a three week ban for contact in the eye area of Facundo Isa of Toulon. Venter is given a six week ban for the contact with Dan Cole and Eben Etzebeth didn't even get cited after making contact in the eye area with Venter a couple of months ago.

Now, everyone knows that not all contact is the same, but these incident were very similar and led to very different outcomes in each case.

I think the entry points on the eye contact thing are about right, I've long said that going after a player's eyes is the most cowardly act imaginable, but the officials in general suck big dog's balls. NB, not the referees, it's the rest of the process that I'm taking issue with here.

[assfly]

Is that the lesson after the 'keep your hands away from opponents eyes' tutorial?

What is the correct protocol if a 120kg prop has you in a headlock?

[Kawazaki]

Is that the lesson after the 'keep your hands away from opponents eyes' tutorial?

What is the correct protocol if a 120kg prop has you in a headlock?

I've been held in a headlock playing rugby before and eye-gouging didn't occur to me as a solution.

[assfly]

Is that the lesson after the 'keep your hands away from opponents eyes' tutorial?

What is the correct protocol if a 120kg prop has you in a headlock?

I've been held in a headlock playing rugby before and eye-gouging didn't occur to me as a solution.

That's nice, but it's not what I asked.

[SaintK]

What is the correct protocol if a 120kg prop has you in a headlock?

I've been held in a headlock playing rugby before and eye-gouging didn't occur to me as a solution.

That's nice, but it's not what I asked.

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

[assfly]

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

OK I get it now. So just to be on the safe side, he should probably put his hands in his pockets until the prop graciously decides to cease with the choke hold.

Saying as we are now permitting players to use headlocks in rucks, players can also be issued with goggles to further protect their eyes when conducting this maneuver? Or the ref can do a WWE style 3-second count to release him before he runs out of breathe?

[SaintK]

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

OK I get it now. So just to be on the safe side, he should probably put his hands in his pockets until the prop graciously decides to cease with the choke hold.

Saying as we are now permitting players to use headlocks in rucks, players can also be issued with goggles to further protect their eyes when conducting this maneuver? Or the ref can do a WWE style 3-second count to release him before he runs out of breathe?

Don't be an idiot
There is absolutely no reason for fingers to be anywhere near the eyes ever.

[Kawazaki]

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

OK I get it now. So just to be on the safe side, he should probably put his hands in his pockets until the prop graciously decides to cease with the choke hold.

Saying as we are now permitting players to use headlocks in rucks, players can also be issued with goggles to further protect their eyes when conducting this maneuver? Or the ref can do a WWE style 3-second count to release him before he runs out of breathe?

Nobody was being choked. Stop being a fanny.

[OomStruisbaai]

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

OK I get it now. So just to be on the safe side, he should probably put his hands in his pockets until the prop graciously decides to cease with the choke hold.

Saying as we are now permitting players to use headlocks in rucks, players can also be issued with goggles to further protect their eyes when conducting this maneuver? Or the ref can do a WWE style 3-second count to release him before he runs out of breathe?

Nobody was being choked. Stop being a fanny.

Definitely not Neethling Fouche.

[sturginho]

Here we go again: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 82yjz0g2ko

[robmatic]

Here we go again: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 82yjz0g2ko

I enjoyed this very logical argument from Monye:

He added that the English league was "too competitive" across the division, meaning Premiership clubs "don't have the strength in depth within their squads to be able to match these (European) teams for 80 minutes" and lack sufficient quality to "fight across two fronts".

I think if a lack of depth and quality is the issue, it is probably not due to too much competition.

[sockwithaticket]

Here we go again: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 82yjz0g2ko

Such lazy fucking journalism. Last season two Premiership sides made the semi-finals and Northampton were incredibly close to turning over Leinster in their game.

There is a salary disparity, but it'll only be fixed by reaching spending parity and that's not going to happen. So Prem team performance in Europe will be inconsistent, just as it is for 95% of the URC. It is what it is and whinging or proposing structural changes won't do anything.

And to close the gap financially, I would allow the Premiership teams to recruit a marquee player - or just say you have a marquee spend for Europe, say £1m. That's one way to match with the very best, to close that gap in quality.

Ugo Monye is an absolute moron. The teams that can afford to do so are already using the existing marquee player slot. Opening up another one only helps the two clubs that can afford to spend more than the current cap and also does nothing to address squad level talent imbalances between English clubs and the best of France. No single player is that good.

[SaintK]

Here we go again: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... 82yjz0g2ko

Such lazy fucking journalism. Last season two Premiership sides made the semi-finals and Northampton were incredibly close to turning over Leinster in their game.

There is a salary disparity, but it'll only be fixed by reaching spending parity and that's not going to happen. So Prem team performance in Europe will be inconsistent, just as it is for 95% of the URC. It is what it is and whinging or proposing structural changes won't do anything.

And to close the gap financially, I would allow the Premiership teams to recruit a marquee player - or just say you have a marquee spend for Europe, say £1m. That's one way to match with the very best, to close that gap in quality.

Ugo Monye is an absolute moron. The teams that can afford to do so are already using the existing marquee player slot. Opening up another one only helps the two clubs that can afford to spend more than the current cap and also does nothing to address squad level talent imbalances between English clubs and the best of France. No single player is that good.

Yep
How the fuck he blags a job on TV is beyond me!

[Deepsouth]

Arrogant fellows that have never won a World Cup?..

[Paddington Bear]

Arrogant fellows that have never won a World Cup?..

In fairness whilst you can sometimes forget it in his own and the BBC’s breathless coverage of him, Ugo Monye only has 14 more England caps than I do

[PornDog]

There is a salary disparity, but it'll only be fixed by reaching spending parity and that's not going to happen.

The problem isn't the salary cap per se, it's that English clubs seem to be massively overpaying players, and not just the marquee players at that. Ross Molony's a very good journeyman, probably unlucky not to have picked up a cap, but there's no way he should be earning £250k playing for Bath (I believe he's EQ, so that probably helps him, but still). I know he's marquee, but there's no World in which Finn Russell should be paid £1M just for playing club rugby. Scuttlebutt has it that Jack Crowley was offered £600k by Leicester!!!

They need to try and do something to reduce the average wage levels so that they can build proper squads. You can't compete with the French, so don't even try. They should probably ditch the marquee players entirely and just adjust the cap accordingly. I don't know what you can do to hinder teams just outbidding each other for mediocre players, but something has to be done. Otherwise more clubs are just going to go down the shitter.

[SaintK]

Arrogant fellows that have never won a World Cup?..

In fairness whilst you can sometimes forget it in his own and the BBC’s breathless coverage of him, Ugo Monye only has 14 more England caps than I do

[Sandstorm]

Arrogant fellows that have never won a World Cup?..

In fairness whilst you can sometimes forget it in his own and the BBC’s breathless coverage of him, Ugo Monye only has 14 more England caps than I do

[Blackmac]

The correct protocol is not to put your fingers anywhere near his eyes

OK I get it now. So just to be on the safe side, he should probably put his hands in his pockets until the prop graciously decides to cease with the choke hold.

Saying as we are now permitting players to use headlocks in rucks, players can also be issued with goggles to further protect their eyes when conducting this maneuver? Or the ref can do a WWE style 3-second count to release him before he runs out of breathe?

Don't be an idiot
There is absolutely no reason for fingers to be anywhere near the eyes ever.

I'm not convinced Venter deliberately went for the eyes. If you are put in a headlock in any situation it's almost a natural reaction to raise your arm up to try and leverage your way out using your arm against the assailants head. It's also taught in nearly every self defence class you will ever attend. I think Venter did that and quickly realised his hands were on his face and moved his hand away as quickly as he could.