2024/2025 Not Heineken Cup

[Paddington Bear]

Morgan made more tackles than anyone else in the 6N, he was 4th in successful clean outs, 2nd in defensive ruck arrivals, 5th in attacking ruck arrivals.

These are all metrics selectors take note of, rather than the colour of shirt they wear.

Of course he made loads of tackles - they never had the ball!

[Tichtheid]

Morgan made more tackles than anyone else in the 6N, he was 4th in successful clean outs, 2nd in defensive ruck arrivals, 5th in attacking ruck arrivals.

These are all metrics selectors take note of, rather than the colour of shirt they wear.

Of course he made loads of tackles - they never had the ball!

Their lowest was 43% possession against Ireland, 45% against Scotland, 50% against England and France, 54% against Italy.

All from official 6N site.

[SaintK]

Even the Welsh can't think of three back rows that should go on the Lions tour.

Pollock should go to Argentina with England.

Morgan, Reffell and Wainwright would be my choices ahead of Pollock right now, there is an argument for Faletau too.

Pollock will get there, undoubtedly, but next time, not this time.

edit, I'm not saying those three or four should go, just that they are better options than Pollock right now.

I assume that the argument for Faletau is that he looked completely battered and ancient in the 6N, and would struggle to get in most teams.

Pollock is getting glazed for sure, but push back sensibly, at least.

Faletau is a shadow of the p[layer he was.Injuries and age have caught up with him
Morgan has a slight chance of touring. Reffell and Wainwright are way behind the Currys, Earl, VdF, Richie, Darge, Doris, Willis and Conan
Pollock should tour with England to Argentina and USA, he will get game time and more experience

[Uncle fester]

Morgan, Reffell and Wainwright would be my choices ahead of Pollock right now, there is an argument for Faletau too.

Pollock will get there, undoubtedly, but next time, not this time.

edit, I'm not saying those three or four should go, just that they are better options than Pollock right now.

I assume that the argument for Faletau is that he looked completely battered and ancient in the 6N, and would struggle to get in most teams.

Pollock is getting glazed for sure, but push back sensibly, at least.

Seems to be a collective amnesia about how comprehensively Morgan was dismantled by an English back row he will likely tour ahead of. Parisse syndrome - being a decent player in a shit team means people talk about you.

He's a one man pack so not surprising he struggles when Wales are getting creamed. Not saying he should go but the relative strength of their teammates is a factor in how people play.

[Hal Jordan]

Morgan, Reffell and Wainwright would be my choices ahead of Pollock right now, there is an argument for Faletau too.

Pollock will get there, undoubtedly, but next time, not this time.

edit, I'm not saying those three or four should go, just that they are better options than Pollock right now.

I assume that the argument for Faletau is that he looked completely battered and ancient in the 6N, and would struggle to get in most teams.

Pollock is getting glazed for sure, but push back sensibly, at least.

Faletau is a shadow of the p[layer he was.Injuries and age have caught up with him
Morgan has a slight chance of touring. Reffell and Wainwright are way behind the Currys, Earl, VdF, Richie, Darge, Doris, Willis and Conan
Pollock should tour with England to Argentina and USA, he will get game time and more experience

Based on who is likely to be available, I reckon Borthwick will go with CCS, Ben Curry and Willis with Pollock off the bench.

[Paddington Bear]

Raucous atmosphere in Toulon. Have we managed to appoint a ref who can’t speak French for this game?

[Jock42]

Wee bit ridiculous that kick

[Jock42]

Raucous atmosphere in Toulon. Have we managed to appoint a ref who can’t speak French for this game?

Probably doesn't matter when it's Willis constantly infringing

[Paddington Bear]

Raucous atmosphere in Toulon. Have we managed to appoint a ref who can’t speak French for this game?

Probably doesn't matter when it's Willis constantly infringing

Willis is having a poor game

[Tichtheid]

It's been a disappointing game so far, as Top 14 games can be, even more so when this is a winner takes all situation.

Graou is struggling a bit and Capuozzu is a big miss for Toulouse.

[sockwithaticket]

Who's this Irish wank on comms? Completely wrong.

[Tichtheid]

I stepped out to make a coffee - presumably the earlier try from Marchand was chalked off for something ?

[Jock42]

I stepped out to make a coffee - presumably the earlier try from Marchand was chalked off for something ?

Knocked it on

[Tichtheid]

I stepped out to make a coffee - presumably the earlier try from Marchand was chalked off for something ?

Knocked it on

Cheers

[Kawazaki]

Toulouse in danger of being Carley'd here...

[Stranger]

The non existant nock on was interesting

[Stranger]

The non existant knock on was interesting

[Paddington Bear]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

[sockwithaticket]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

[Tichtheid]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

He rather redeemed himself there - takes a fair amount of nads for that kick

[Paddington Bear]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

Hope he got a good one in before Ramos slotted the winner. Pretty turgid game

[Tichtheid]

I'm not sure Villiere was let go by the chasing Toulouse player before he got to his feet

[PCPhil]

Wow. Sad way to lose a match. Take a few drinks for him to get over that one.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not sure Villiere was let go by the chasing Toulouse player before he got to his feet

I was wondering why he was allowed to get back up off the floor with a Toulouse player attached to him and without ostensibly having released and regathered the ball.

[SaintK]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

Hope he got a good one in before Ramos slotted the winner. Pretty turgid game

Turgid but pretty full on

[PCPhil]

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

Hope he got a good one in before Ramos slotted the winner. Pretty turgid game

Turgid but pretty full on

[Torquemada 1420]

Appalling kick from Ramos, looks like we’re in for extra time

I can only imagine the vehemence with which Torq has just screamed 'FLAKE'.

Hah. I didn't see the game because of other commitments but since critical games involving 2 Fre teams are always dire (witness every such HEC final), I wasn't expecting to have missed out.

Ramos: if you could be arsed to go back to the pre RWC bunfight of "Ramos v Jaminet" (before Jaminet was done for racism on public media: itself an act of hypocrisy from the FFR given the selections of Chalureau), you'd see repeatedly that my issue with Ramos is he'd go 10+ games with 100% of the tee and then have a catalogue of errors in 1 game. My argument was (and still is)
- if a player has 90% every game, then it's less likely to hurt you and, if it does, you probably could point to other failings being equally responsible for a loss.
- if a player goes 50% in the odd game, what's the bet it will be one that matters? Step up (or not) Ramos
> v SA RWC
> v Eng 6N
> v RCT yesterday
In the end, he redeemed himself although according to Bernol, RCT were bummed by the ref so maybe a helping hand there too.

Guess what: Jaminet was 100% off the tee. Ironic that he was at the centre of the row over Toulouse breaching payment caps too. Don't get me wrong: when Ramos is on form, he carries well, makes all his kicks and takes the high ball. When he goes all Poitrenaud, he stays in his shell, misses kicks and drops or misjudges every high ball. Personally, I'd prefer someone like Buros at FB over either Jaminet or Ramos but then you have to select a reliable dead ball kicker elsewhere: which is neither Jalibert nor Ntamack (who has no range). That forces you to have a SH who kicks........... but Le Garrec, Lucu and Dupont are actually all decent kickers. The 2nd best SH IMHO is Jauneau but he isn't a kicker.

And on SHs, like I've said over the years, Graou is very weak. He's the same age as Dupont so not like Toulouse haven't had enough time to work out he is a liability. Fortunately the U20 player Daroque looks like he'll make the grade and is already a street better than Graou although Mola isn't going to pick a rookie in a key game.

[SaintK]

Spot the difference!! Leinster by 20.

Leinster and Northampton Saints meet in the semi-final of the Investec Champions Cup as two teams with a shared desire to promote homegrown talent. Yet they also offer up an undeniable contrast as far as respective playing budgets. After head scratching and rough sums among several sources, there was agreement that Leinster’s squad is probably worth twice that of Saints.

https://archive.ph/uiQN2

[PornDog]

Spot the difference!! Leinster by 20.

Leinster and Northampton Saints meet in the semi-final of the Investec Champions Cup as two teams with a shared desire to promote homegrown talent. Yet they also offer up an undeniable contrast as far as respective playing budgets. After head scratching and rough sums among several sources, there was agreement that Leinster’s squad is probably worth twice that of Saints.

https://archive.ph/uiQN2

Got as far as Furlong being on €650k (which is probably right), implying that it was all part of Leinster's wages. That includes his Ireland salary - anybody want to hazard a guess at how much more valuable to Ireland Furlong is than he is to Leinster?

The IRFU currently say that value is along a 70/30 split, making Leinsters contribution €195k! That will be changing to 60/40 in a couple of years time, so would be €260k. Both significantly less than the £325k Mitchell is on!

Mitchell would be paid less by England than Furlong is by Ireland (though still a fair whack I'm sure). Of course Northampton also get paid by the RFU for Mitchell as well, both directly and indirectly (I believe?). They are different systems and completely incomparable as a result.

I am curious though, and not throwing shade at you Saint, but why is it that when this issue comes up, there's a noticeably different tone when discussing Leinster than there is when discussing Toulouse, or any other French club?

[SaintK]

Spot the difference!! Leinster by 20.

Leinster and Northampton Saints meet in the semi-final of the Investec Champions Cup as two teams with a shared desire to promote homegrown talent. Yet they also offer up an undeniable contrast as far as respective playing budgets. After head scratching and rough sums among several sources, there was agreement that Leinster’s squad is probably worth twice that of Saints.

https://archive.ph/uiQN2

Got as far as Furlong being on €650k (which is probably right), implying that it was all part of Leinster's wages. That includes his Ireland salary - anybody want to hazard a guess at how much more valuable to Ireland Furlong is than he is to Leinster?

The IRFU currently say that value is along a 70/30 split, making Leinsters contribution €195k! That will be changing to 60/40 in a couple of years time, so would be €260k. Both significantly less than the £325k Mitchell is on!

Mitchell would be paid less by England than Furlong is by Ireland (though still a fair whack I'm sure). Of course Northampton also get paid by the RFU for Mitchell as well, both directly and indirectly (I believe?). They are different systems and completely incomparable as a result.

I am curious though, and not throwing shade at you Saint, but why is it that when this issue comes up, there's a noticeably different tone when discussing Leinster than there is when discussing Toulouse, or any other French club?

Not sure why to be honest, here it probably stems from how the swarm would react to this subject in the other place. The uk rugby press just like to stir it.
To be fair Leinster and the top French clubs probably earn enough revenue through the turnstiles to be able to afford what they do. Though I’m not sure quite how Leinster can afford to have 3 marquee signings like Barrett Snyman and Slimani at the same time
Mitchell is currently Saints nominated marquee player he is also one of Englands 17 centrally contracted players on £160k

[PornDog]

Like I said though, it's a completely different system, so not really comparable. Because Ireland and Leinster are part of the same organisation, the IRFU will crucnch the numbers and figure out what Furlong is worth to Irish rugby as a whole and then take that figure into their bargaining with the agent. You guys don't have that luxury, plus you have internal competition which we don't (and probably for ego reasons more than anything else want to keep up with the French Jones's), which helps to keep our wages much more manageable.

From the best I can figure it, articles like this start with the premise of "If Leinster were an English club, how much would their squad cost?" and then try and figure everything out from there. In which case their figures will be fairly accurate (aside from a good bit of inflation to increase the clickbait - £17M me hole), but it will have very little bearing on the reality of what Leinster are actually spending within our system.

Ross Moloney, probably doubled his money moving to Bath (rumoured to be on £250k). Legend that he is, journeymen pros should not be earning that kind of money. At his height pre-covid, Conor Murray signed a deal (again Ireland + Munster) worth €700k, which I'd be surprised if it wasn't still the largest contract ever given out by the IRFU. Itoje and Farrell were earning £800k/£850k just from Saracens, with England payments on top. Your system leads to higher wages, ours does the opposite.

That bit about the schools though - Jesus! I'm not saying they don't do great work, but I'd be amazed if there weren't a number of English schools paying significantly more for their rugby programs than the biggest spending Irish schools (probably Blackrock).

The St. Michaels Rugby Head was on The Rugby Pod a few months ago and was saying that their rugby program costs about €4 per student per hour. If every single student in the school played/trained for ten hours every week for the full 26 week school rugby season, that would come out to just over €1M. In reality it's probably less than one third of that (still a stupid amount of wedge mind you).

But if the Leinster schools system were so good, then you'd see Irish underage sides being dominated by Leinster players (and in turn dominating everyone they played against). But you don't. Leinster is over represented by population, usually about 65% versus about 55% of population, but those are raw numbers. Munster would be much bigger into Hurling than Leinster, Ulster would be much bigger into Gaelic Football than Leinster (in fairness, Dublin aside). Soccer would trump everyone else's participation numbers.

But while the underage sides are roughly 65% Leinster products, the national team is currently what - 85%, 90%? What I think the real benefit the schools systems provide, is that players making that step up have a familiarity with an academy-like system and so its probably an easier adjustment for them. The real benefit though, is the coaching they get once they are directly in the Leinster system, which I don't think too many people can say hasn't been exceptional.

Edit: Just on the 3 lads - Slimani was retiring and going into coaching. Snyman is on a pay for play contract due to his injury history and Barrett's contract has stipulations in it from NZRU about his playing time. He was off in Phoenix in February attending the Phoenix Open and has had a load of time off.

[Camroc2]

Barrett is still under contract to the NZRU, and Leinster are paying him a top up for his six months or so in Dublin which has been reported to be in the region of € 250k. So he gets his normal NZRU contract payments, plus the € 250k for his 6 months. He also had what was essentially an off-season break during the 6 Nations.

[Kawazaki]

Like I said though, it's a completely different system, so not really comparable. Because Ireland and Leinster are part of the same organisation, the IRFU will crucnch the numbers and figure out what Furlong is worth to Irish rugby as a whole and then take that figure into their bargaining with the agent. You guys don't have that luxury, plus you have internal competition which we don't (and probably for ego reasons more than anything else want to keep up with the French Jones's), which helps to keep our wages much more manageable.

From the best I can figure it, articles like this start with the premise of "If Leinster were an English club, how much would their squad cost?" and then try and figure everything out from there. In which case their figures will be fairly accurate (aside from a good bit of inflation to increase the clickbait - £17M me hole), but it will have very little bearing on the reality of what Leinster are actually spending within our system.

Ross Moloney, probably doubled his money moving to Bath (rumoured to be on £250k). Legend that he is, journeymen pros should not be earning that kind of money. At his height pre-covid, Conor Murray signed a deal (again Ireland + Munster) worth €700k, which I'd be surprised if it wasn't still the largest contract ever given out by the IRFU. Itoje and Farrell were earning £800k/£850k just from Saracens, with England payments on top. Your system leads to higher wages, ours does the opposite.

That bit about the schools though - Jesus! I'm not saying they don't do great work, but I'd be amazed if there weren't a number of English schools paying significantly more for their rugby programs than the biggest spending Irish schools (probably Blackrock).

The St. Michaels Rugby Head was on The Rugby Pod a few months ago and was saying that their rugby program costs about €4 per student per hour. If every single student in the school played/trained for ten hours every week for the full 26 week school rugby season, that would come out to just over €1M. In reality it's probably less than one third of that (still a stupid amount of wedge mind you).

But if the Leinster schools system were so good, then you'd see Irish underage sides being dominated by Leinster players (and in turn dominating everyone they played against). But you don't. Leinster is over represented by population, usually about 65% versus about 55% of population, but those are raw numbers. Munster would be much bigger into Hurling than Leinster, Ulster would be much bigger into Gaelic Football than Leinster (in fairness, Dublin aside). Soccer would trump everyone else's participation numbers.

But while the underage sides are roughly 65% Leinster products, the national team is currently what - 85%, 90%? What I think the real benefit the schools systems provide, is that players making that step up have a familiarity with an academy-like system and so its probably an easier adjustment for them. The real benefit though, is the coaching they get once they are directly in the Leinster system, which I don't think too many people can say hasn't been exceptional.

Edit: Just on the 3 lads - Slimani was retiring and going into coaching. Snyman is on a pay for play contract due to his injury history and Barrett's contract has stipulations in it from NZRU about his playing time. He was off in Phoenix in February attending the Phoenix Open and has had a load of time off.

Perhaps you should read the article.

[Paddington Bear]

English private schools spread their sporting attention much thinner than Irish. Cricket is probably the most competitive sport for most of them, hockey and rowing are taking very seriously by a bunch, football by the odd one. The Irish system seems to be rugby then some also rans.

Taking two schools that are often cited as England’s cream of the crop, it’s unarguable that Sedbergh takes cricket more seriously, and I think it’s true of Millfield too

[Camroc2]

I did.

And it's just the usual shit of English journo's saying that the English system of private benefactors (with some RFU money) funding is fairer/better/whatever than the Irish system of IRFU funding (with some private benefactor money).

Given the number of 'quotes' from 'insiders', 'sources', 'informed sources', and the like; and the 'finger in the air' valuations of what Leinster players might earn, on the market in the English system, I'd take the entire article with several large grains of salt.

[SaintK]

Barrett is still under contract to the NZRU, and Leinster are paying him a top up for his six months or so in Dublin which has been reported to be in the region of € 250k. So he gets his normal NZRU contract payments, plus the € 250k for his 6 months. He also had what was essentially an off-season break during the 6 Nations.

...and Snyman and Slimani who aren't being paid by their respective unions?

[SaintK]

...anyway I've just seen the Saints injury list...........Leinster by 40!!

[PornDog]

English private schools spread their sporting attention much thinner than Irish. Cricket is probably the most competitive sport for most of them, hockey and rowing are taking very seriously by a bunch, football by the odd one. The Irish system seems to be rugby then some also rans.

Taking two schools that are often cited as England’s cream of the crop, it’s unarguable that Sedbergh takes cricket more seriously, and I think it’s true of Millfield too

Onle according to external commentators. Schools that play rugby at all make up a tiny minority of all the schools and only a very small percentage of them actually take it seriously or are any good (school I went did take it seriously, but we were utter shite!). Even within those schools you have plenty of other sports, tennis, athletics, GAA (both codes) and rowing is big as well in certain schools. The mix varies according to schools, of course, but if you're interested, Blackrock is the biggest rugby school in the country and here's a list of the sports they offer - https://www.blackrockcollege.com/activities/sports/

FWIW, a Grand-Uncle of mine played cricket for Munster Schools sometime back in the 40s I would guess.

...and Snyman and Slimani who aren't being paid by their respective unions?

Snyman is on a pay for play contract this year, and I believe his missus is studying or some such, so he wanted to stay in Ireland. I'm sure he's not on peanuts (especially considering he's actually playing), but its wont be huge money either. Slimani was retiring and going into coaching, so he probably didn't have many offers. He originally thought his agent meant Leicester when told of Leinster's interest, so I'm sure playing for Leinster had its attraction as well. Again, wont be peanuts, but wont be a huge salary either.


Oh and Toga - I reckon you probably read my posts, but did you understand them? I think not!


Edit: fixing my family tree - he was a grand Uncle not an uncle

[PornDog]

...anyway I've just seen the Saints injury list...........Leinster by 40!!

Yeah it's shit. Glasgow had a horrid injury list as well - would have been such a great game if they had been full strength. Instead we got what we got. Least Glasgow were still game though, unlike Quins the week before!

[Paddington Bear]

English private schools spread their sporting attention much thinner than Irish. Cricket is probably the most competitive sport for most of them, hockey and rowing are taking very seriously by a bunch, football by the odd one. The Irish system seems to be rugby then some also rans.

Taking two schools that are often cited as England’s cream of the crop, it’s unarguable that Sedbergh takes cricket more seriously, and I think it’s true of Millfield too

Onle according to external commentators. Schools that play rugby at all make up a tiny minority of all the schools and only a very small percentage of them actually take it seriously or are any good (school I went did take it seriously, but we were utter shite!). Even within those schools you have plenty of other sports, tennis, athletics, GAA (both codes) and rowing is big as well in certain schools. The mix varies according to schools, of course, but if you're interested, Blackrock is the biggest rugby school in the country and here's a list of the sports they offer - https://www.blackrockcollege.com/activities/sports/

FWIW, an Uncle of mine played cricket for Munster Schools sometime back in the late 50s early 60s.

...and Snyman and Slimani who aren't being paid by their respective unions?

Snyman is on a pay for play contract this year, and I believe his missus is studying or some such, so he wanted to stay in Ireland. I'm sure he's not on peanuts (especially considering he's actually playing), but its wont be huge money either. Slimani was retiring and going into coaching, so he probably didn't have many offers. He originally thought his agent meant Leicester when told of Leinster's interest, so I'm sure playing for Leinster had its attraction as well. Again, wont be peanuts, but wont be a huge salary either.


Oh and Toga - I reckon you probably read my posts, but did you understand them? I think not!

That very few schools play rugby in either country is unarguable, in both cases we’re discussing the small minority of private schools and how they shape up sports wise. And I’m not suggesting nothing but rugby is offered at say Blackrock, I’m saying that the school’s focus is pretty relentless on rugby in terms of high performance. This isn’t really the case in England where cricket in particular siphons off a lot of those resources.