Kashmir

[Guy Smiley]

Should we be a little bit worried?

A blogger I follow via FB, Carrick Ryan (ex Australian security service agent) puts it thus,

While it was the British that implemented partition, it was the Muslim League that demanded it. It was against the wishes of Gandhi, a man executed by a Hindu extremist, and against the counsel of the British, albeit after centuries of "divide and conquer" colonial control.
It was one of the most violent events in history. Neighbours murdered each other the moment they felt legally absolved to do so, communities that had lived side by side for centuries butchered each other for no reason other than religious animosity.
As many as 2 million were killed, 100,000 women were raped and abducted, and as many as 18 million were displaced from religiously motivated massacres by Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs alike.
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis don't share an ethnicity or language, or a border, but they share their religion, and that was enough to initially be seen as the same nationality. Their religion was their nationality.
Ten weeks after independence, India and Pakistan went to war for the first time. It's happened three more times since then.
When the people of Kashmir were offered membership of either Pakistan or India, the Muslim majority wanted to join Pakistan. The Hindu Raj chose to join India. The Muslims of Kashmir have demanded this decision be reversed ever since.
A passionate allegiance to a political entity they've never been a part of, based on no other value than religion, strong enough to wage war.
Make no mistake, this is a holy war. A country that has Islam enshrined into its constitution and a country with a Hindu nationalist Prime Minister are threatening to annihilate one another, and the crowds are getting loud.

[Kiwias]

Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

[Guy Smiley]

Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

China has military ties with Pakistan and ongoing border hostilities with India. Sit back for a second and consider the proportion of the global population involved in that little tete a tete, not to mention the nuclear capabilities of everyone involved.

[Gumboot]

China has military ties with Pakistan and ongoing border hostilities with India.

Yep, way back in the late 80s I wanted to visit Kashmir on my way to the Karakoram Highway, and then on to Llasa. But the Chinese embassy in Delhi wouldn't give me a visa coz the soldiers at the border crossing were pretty twitchy at the time. So I had to turn round and head back to Nepal...

[Guy Smiley]

China has military ties with Pakistan and ongoing border hostilities with India.

Yep, way back in the late 80s I wanted to visit Kashmir on my way to the Karakoram Highway, and then on to Llasa. But the Chinese embassy in Delhi wouldn't give me a visa coz the soldiers at the border crossing were pretty twitchy at the time. So I had to turn round and head back to Nepal...

When I moved over the Perth I started out sharing a house with a Kiwi lady and her family, she had travelled extensively through the 70s and had some photos of Kashmir. I'd have loved to have got up there, it looked gorgeous.

Not any more though

[Gumboot]

Yep, Burma was another near miss back in the day. Regrets, I've had a few...

[assfly]

This will certainly put the nuclear deterrence doctrine (that nuclear armed states don't fight each other, even in a conventional war) to the test.

[Kiwias]

Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

[Yeeb]

Or, as Trump put it, that is a shame.

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

[Kawazaki]

Two million deaths, mass rape and 18 million people displaced or continue with more than a century of multicultural peace under British rule?

[Brazil]

There weren't particularly bad relations between Hindus and Muslims prior to British rule, it's a narrative that's spun by the BJP to justify their crackdowns. Historically, a Gujarati Muslim had far more in common with his Hindu neighbour than he did with a Bengali Muslim. The big division came late on in the Raj when the British starting demanding to know the religious identity of Indians and using it as a divide and rule tactic. Similarly, it was relatively late on in the campaign for independence that the idea of partition came to be seriously considered. Even Jinnah didn't favour it initially.

The Empire podcast episodes on this are very good indeed.

[Insane_Homer]

IPL postponed, thanks Kashmir!

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ipl- ... ns-1485448

[Yeeb]

Two million deaths, mass rape and 18 million people displaced or continue with more than a century of multicultural peace under British rule?

They do seem to like rape in that part of the world , that is true

[Uncle fester]

Well, Trump is geopolitically speaking, an idiot.

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

[Yeeb]

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

[Slick]

There weren't particularly bad relations between Hindus and Muslims prior to British rule, it's a narrative that's spun by the BJP to justify their crackdowns. Historically, a Gujarati Muslim had far more in common with his Hindu neighbour than he did with a Bengali Muslim. The big division came late on in the Raj when the British starting demanding to know the religious identity of Indians and using it as a divide and rule tactic. Similarly, it was relatively late on in the campaign for independence that the idea of partition came to be seriously considered. Even Jinnah didn't favour it initially.

The Empire podcast episodes on this are very good indeed.

That podcast is brilliant, I'm about half way through the episodes

[Uncle fester]

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

[Yeeb]

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

Kind of analagous really to how the various Irish kings warred amongst themself until one (Leinster?) asked for English help and got papal decree to order to go help out. Nobody is ever saying what English / British did was wholly good or claim credit , but the somehow claim as being sole cause of anything bad is just myopic. British have long since left India subcontinent so they should perhaps have found a solution themselves after all these decades. The hodgepodge was there before , during and after British rule.

Or perhaps more interest for discussion, is why British seem to side with anyone but the Muslims for who got into positions of power. China seems have have run into a similar situation…

[Paddington Bear]

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

You can’t run a Quit India campaign and then complain when said power quits India

[Yeeb]

We know the micks can hold a grudge for aeons - has to be a time limit though before you realise certain issues were there long before us (approx 800ad from a quick google re Muslim conquests).
They can also blame us for all that nasty law, infrastructure , sanitation, commerce , education etc boosted to the subcontinent.

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

You can’t run a Quit India campaign and then complain when said power quits India

You can if you are Irish.
Just imagine if London PLC kicks Northern Ireland into touch and lets the fake ‘one island can only be one country’ thing happen. That part of the world will still be antagonistic to one another long after we’ve washed our hands with it all, just as it was long before we got invited to do their heavy lifting & even 400 odd years later when Henry 8ths cock created a whole new religion for all those warring factions to get behind different sky fairy banners just so they can easier distinguish themselves whilst cutting each other up in a bog. The more sporting ones even chose a nice bright orange to help that, rather than the greens and their unsporting collage of snot grass & leaves.

Always playing the victim that lot, we lucky we contained that influence to just Liverpool.

[PornDog]

Proven by his comment that India and Pakistan have been engaged in border conflict for centuries, unless he was meaning in the 20th and 21 centuries.

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Probably best not to mention Michael O'Dwyer at this juncture. Ah shit!

[Uncle fester]

The usual "we taught the brown people to wear pants" excuses. They also exacerbated catastrophes like the Madras famine. Strange you're not taking credit for that one.

But yes, the issues were there long before and the British exploited & deepened them quite ruthlessly in order to siphon off the riches.

And when it came to independence, they were handed a hodgepodge that they had to piece together themselves.

You can’t run a Quit India campaign and then complain when said power quits India

You can if you are Irish.
Just imagine if London PLC kicks Northern Ireland into touch and lets the fake ‘one island can only be one country’ thing happen. That part of the world will still be antagonistic to one another long after we’ve washed our hands with it all, just as it was long before we got invited to do their heavy lifting & even 400 odd years later when Henry 8ths cock created a whole new religion for all those warring factions to get behind different sky fairy banners just so they can easier distinguish themselves whilst cutting each other up in a bog. The more sporting ones even chose a nice bright orange to help that, rather than the greens and their unsporting collage of snot grass & leaves.

Always playing the victim that lot, we lucky we contained that influence to just Liverpool.

Very scattershot yeeb. Focus your thoughts a bit more next time.

[Paddington Bear]

Perhaps he meant between Muslims and non Muslims in the region, for there were tensions / divisions / wars / conquests / riots of that nature for hundreds of years before anyone British even set foot on the Indian subcontinent. It’s a bit convenient to blame Britain on that, if anything they merely try to calm things down and formalise rifts already in place in the forlorn hope they would stop killing and eating each other.

Also iirc British never ruled all of india, there were states within modern India that were left alone , and they had Muslim v Hindu conflict before during and presumably after the British ruled most of India. Bit sketchy on that as it was a long time ago and learnt mostly from a campaign on Empire Total war pc game about 15 years ago.

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Probably best not to mention Michael O'Dwyer at this juncture. Ah shit!

There’s the famous quip of India having been governed in a Cork accent

[PornDog]

Teeny bit of white washing going on for the divide and rule practiced by the Brits.

Probably best not to mention Michael O'Dwyer at this juncture. Ah shit!

There’s the famous quip of India having been governed in a Cork accent

Dyer did go to school in Cork, but doubt he would have picked up much of a Cork accent. O'Dwyer was from Tipp I'll have you know.

[Kawazaki]

Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

[Slick]

Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

[Kawazaki]

Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

[Slick]

Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

[Kawazaki]

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

I'm not going anywhere.

Liberia and Ethiopia were never colonised, perhaps they're the ideal model for all African countries?

[Slick]

So things are all equal now and tickety-boo? Farms producing lots of wonderful produce for those 60m to eat etc?

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

I'm not going anywhere.

Liberia and Ethiopia were never colonised, perhaps they're the ideal model for all African countries?

One with a vicious civil war not long ago and one in the middle of one with a low level genocide going on?

Having been to Liberia fairly recently, it’s not a model for anything

[Kawazaki]

No, it’s not perfect. Can you just cut to the chase where you are going with this?

I'm not going anywhere.

Liberia and Ethiopia were never colonised, perhaps they're the ideal model for all African countries?

One with a vicious civil war not long ago and one in the middle of one with a low level genocide going on?

Having been to Liberia fairly recently, it’s not a model for anything

Perhaps, despite all the moral outrage and white privilege guilt, colonisation did leave some positive impressions on various parts of the world.

[Uncle fester]

Your bojo tribute act is a bit forced tago.

[Kawazaki]

Your bojo tribute act is a bit forced tago.

You'd still be bartering peat and potatoes without the Brits.

[Uncle fester]

*sympathy nibble*

[Torquemada 1420]

Should we be a little bit worried?

A blogger I follow via FB, Carrick Ryan (ex Australian security service agent) puts it thus,

While it was the British that implemented partition, it was the Muslim League that demanded it. It was against the wishes of Gandhi, a man executed by a Hindu extremist, and against the counsel of the British, albeit after centuries of "divide and conquer" colonial control.
It was one of the most violent events in history. Neighbours murdered each other the moment they felt legally absolved to do so, communities that had lived side by side for centuries butchered each other for no reason other than religious animosity.
As many as 2 million were killed, 100,000 women were raped and abducted, and as many as 18 million were displaced from religiously motivated massacres by Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs alike.
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis don't share an ethnicity or language, or a border, but they share their religion, and that was enough to initially be seen as the same nationality. Their religion was their nationality.
Ten weeks after independence, India and Pakistan went to war for the first time. It's happened three more times since then.
When the people of Kashmir were offered membership of either Pakistan or India, the Muslim majority wanted to join Pakistan. The Hindu Raj chose to join India. The Muslims of Kashmir have demanded this decision be reversed ever since.
A passionate allegiance to a political entity they've never been a part of, based on no other value than religion, strong enough to wage war.
Make no mistake, this is a holy war. A country that has Islam enshrined into its constitution and a country with a Hindu nationalist Prime Minister are threatening to annihilate one another, and the crowds are getting loud.

Nice attempt to rewrite history from a pro-Brit perspective.
1) Britain was entirely complicit in partition. A last act of spite in "if we can't have it, we'll f**k it up for you as much as you can".
2) Jinnah did not want partition.
3) Congress (inc Nehru and Gandhi) were determined to have a Hindu controlled state under any circumstances. Either muslim subjugation or a split that suited them.
4) Mountbatten the paedophile was banging little Indian boys whilst his wife had a penchant for coloured men with big dicks. Pretty sure Congress was complicit in supplying both in order to leverage advantage over the political table via Mountbatten.

Neighbours murdering each other is the only accurate bit.

[SaintK]

It's ok folks. Trump has just announced on social media that he has brokered a peace deal

In a post on social media platform Truth Social, the US President says: "After a long night of talks mediated by the United States, I am pleased to announce that India and Pakistan have agreed to a FULL AND IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE.

[Yeeb]

Can anyone tell me how South Africa is doing since Mandela liberated the oppressed masses?

Well, there’s 60 million people no longer living under a regime discriminating by race

Um, hate to say this, but they seem to have still in place legislative laws affecting where you can live, taxes paid, employment , based on race.

[Biffer]

Ceasefire confirmed by Pakistan and India. Thank fuck for that.

Wonder what tariff concessions they made.

[tabascoboy]

It's ok folks. Trump has just announced on social media that he has brokered a peace deal

In a post on social media platform Truth Social, the US President says: "After a long night of talks mediated by the United States, I am pleased to announce that India and Pakistan have agreed to a FULL AND IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE.

Trump the Magnificent claiming sole credit then

UK played a key role in ceasefire talks, says Pakistan's foreign minister
published at 15:26

Let's bring you some more comments from Pakistan's Foreign Minister, who earlier confirmed the ceasefire after Donald Trump's announcement on Truth Social.

Ishaq Dar tells GeoTV that both India and Pakistan engaged in "direct communication" and "as a result a joint agreement was reached".

Dar adds that other countries were also involved in finding a resolution - "most notably the United Kingdom".

"The UK Foreign Secretary, David Lammy, played a key role in this process."

[tabascoboy]

Finally, India makes it official: Trump didn't broker India-Pakistan ceasefire

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 149120.cms