Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[fishfoodie]

I think this story, to me as a small "r" republican shows how the UK needs to grow a pair, & join the 20th, let alone the 21st century !!

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crld11w9538o

One on the richest families in the UK sucks at the taxpayers teat, while hundreds of schools & hospitals are collapsing because they were built with RAAC that's now gone past its lifetime, but where's the £500k per building ?, it's being spent on fixing the wiring in Buck house

[Hal Jordan]

Jesus, Starmer is burning every piece of political capital he has with the moderate/left wing of the Party and the public with his futile attempts to out-Reform Reform with the latest blitz on Aunt Sally (immigants and bears). And it will never be enough to satisfy the usual suspects.

[_Os_]

Jesus, Starmer is burning every piece of political capital he has with the moderate/left wing of the Party and the public with his futile attempts to out-Reform Reform with the latest blitz on Aunt Sally (immigants and bears). And it will never be enough to satisfy the usual suspects.

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

[I like neeps]

Jesus, Starmer is burning every piece of political capital he has with the moderate/left wing of the Party and the public with his futile attempts to out-Reform Reform with the latest blitz on Aunt Sally (immigants and bears). And it will never be enough to satisfy the usual suspects.

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

[Slick]

Jesus, Starmer is burning every piece of political capital he has with the moderate/left wing of the Party and the public with his futile attempts to out-Reform Reform with the latest blitz on Aunt Sally (immigants and bears). And it will never be enough to satisfy the usual suspects.

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

I agree with this, he can't just ignore it and he has to look like he is taking it seriously. The only way to get people here into care work is to pay them some decent cash instead of care homes raking it in and paying nothing, but that doesn't seem to have been addressed - unless I missed it.

[robmatic]

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

I agree with this, he can't just ignore it and he has to look like he is taking it seriously. The only way to get people here into care work is to pay them some decent cash instead of care homes raking it in and paying nothing, but that doesn't seem to have been addressed - unless I missed it.

Paying shit wages but having the state subsidise it by granting citizenship to the employee and multiple dependants seems a less than ideal system to me.

[_Os_]

Jesus, Starmer is burning every piece of political capital he has with the moderate/left wing of the Party and the public with his futile attempts to out-Reform Reform with the latest blitz on Aunt Sally (immigants and bears). And it will never be enough to satisfy the usual suspects.

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

Agree it's been a decade and a half of constant focus on immigration. Starting with the hostile environment policy when May was in the Home Office. You can capture a lot of UK politics through that time just by following the immigration debate. It was all nonsense, immigration went up massively. Tories just used it to dog whistle and get votes, it's what Brexit was about too.

Labour are the government now, they can just talk about something else. Government sets the tone, if Labour are saying a whole load of stuff on house building and planning or whatever, that cannot be ignored. If they choose to talk about immigration and make promises on that (which are not serious), they're just fuelling something that they cannot win.

Nothing good would come from a Frog Face government, just another round of populism making a further round of populism in response to the damage he inflicts more likely.

[_Os_]

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

I agree with this, he can't just ignore it and he has to look like he is taking it seriously. The only way to get people here into care work is to pay them some decent cash instead of care homes raking it in and paying nothing, but that doesn't seem to have been addressed - unless I missed it.

Paying shit wages but having the state subsidise it by granting citizenship to the employee and multiple dependants seems a less than ideal system to me.

The market dictates the wages. People who think there's a lot of British people willing to do that work just don't know what they're talking about. The alternative is very likely no care system, which given the odd story I see on the news concerning people caring for relatives and being unable to survive (they cannot work if they're caring), meaning they need more welfare/benefits, may be happening.

It's deep into fruit pickers territory. The alternative to no foreign fruit pickers is no fruit industry.

[Yeeb]

Sir kier missed a chance to :
Save a steelworks in a shithole
Order a couple of destroyers made (in different shitholes) using that steel
Using those destroyers to sink

Spoiler

Show

HMS Poolshitter

invasion
Do a 1984 and appoint a minister of Inhabitance, tasked with ensuring only certain criteria in inhabitants are allowed to inhabit the UK


Watch it!

[I like neeps]

100% correct. But it's probably best ignored to preserve some sanity.

The pathway is now clear. He's going to copy the entire Tory/Reform playbook, wouldn't be surprised if another massively expensive failure like Rwanda happens. Whatever he achieves, the right will then say that isn't good enough, it is all Labour's fault, and they can do a much better job (whilst actually not caring about immigration at all). This will all go down very well with the people Starmer is trying to please. The government in any country sets the agenda, Starmer focusing on immigration means that's what his government will be measured on, doesn't matter what he does elsewhere. Then Frog Face becomes PM.

Cooper knows the immigration topic inside out, she knows it's not possible to decrease migrant care workers. The job is the trifecta of shit: shit wages, shit hours, shit loads of responsibility when things go wrong. Ageing population. Near full employment. She's not being serious when she says she'll end immigrant care workers, it's the same nonsense the Tories came out with.

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

Agree it's been a decade and a half of constant focus on immigration. Starting with the hostile environment policy when May was in the Home Office. You can capture a lot of UK politics through that time just by following the immigration debate. It was all nonsense, immigration went up massively. Tories just used it to dog whistle and get votes, it's what Brexit was about too.

Labour are the government now, they can just talk about something else. Government sets the tone, if Labour are saying a whole load of stuff on house building and planning or whatever, that cannot be ignored. If they choose to talk about immigration and make promises on that (which are not serious), they're just fuelling something that they cannot win.

Nothing good would come from a Frog Face government, just another round of populism making a further round of populism in response to the damage he inflicts more likely.

The problem for Labour is that yes they could talk about planning reform but the UK voters also dislike planning reform and don't want new houses or infrastructure. And then Mr Farage dominates the media which actually decides what we discuss daily.

[_Os_]

On immigration Starmer is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Can't out Reform Reform but what we're 15 years into immigration being the defining political talking point? It's going to continue to be whether he wants to talk about something else.

We'll have to put up with 5 years of a Farage clownshow government and then maybe hopefully something better can come after.

Agree it's been a decade and a half of constant focus on immigration. Starting with the hostile environment policy when May was in the Home Office. You can capture a lot of UK politics through that time just by following the immigration debate. It was all nonsense, immigration went up massively. Tories just used it to dog whistle and get votes, it's what Brexit was about too.

Labour are the government now, they can just talk about something else. Government sets the tone, if Labour are saying a whole load of stuff on house building and planning or whatever, that cannot be ignored. If they choose to talk about immigration and make promises on that (which are not serious), they're just fuelling something that they cannot win.

Nothing good would come from a Frog Face government, just another round of populism making a further round of populism in response to the damage he inflicts more likely.

The problem for Labour is that yes they could talk about planning reform but the UK voters also dislike planning reform and don't want new houses or infrastructure. And then Mr Farage dominates the media which actually decides what we discuss daily.

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

[Slick]

I agree with this, he can't just ignore it and he has to look like he is taking it seriously. The only way to get people here into care work is to pay them some decent cash instead of care homes raking it in and paying nothing, but that doesn't seem to have been addressed - unless I missed it.

Paying shit wages but having the state subsidise it by granting citizenship to the employee and multiple dependants seems a less than ideal system to me.

The market dictates the wages. People who think there's a lot of British people willing to do that work just don't know what they're talking about. The alternative is very likely no care system, which given the odd story I see on the news concerning people caring for relatives and being unable to survive (they cannot work if they're caring), meaning they need more welfare/benefits, may be happening.

It's deep into fruit pickers territory. The alternative to no foreign fruit pickers is no fruit industry.

Well, yes. British folk will go into care work if they are paid properly.

[robmatic]

I agree with this, he can't just ignore it and he has to look like he is taking it seriously. The only way to get people here into care work is to pay them some decent cash instead of care homes raking it in and paying nothing, but that doesn't seem to have been addressed - unless I missed it.

Paying shit wages but having the state subsidise it by granting citizenship to the employee and multiple dependants seems a less than ideal system to me.

The market dictates the wages. People who think there's a lot of British people willing to do that work just don't know what they're talking about. The alternative is very likely no care system, which given the odd story I see on the news concerning people caring for relatives and being unable to survive (they cannot work if they're caring), meaning they need more welfare/benefits, may be happening.

It's deep into fruit pickers territory. The alternative to no foreign fruit pickers is no fruit industry.

Yes, it is a systemically difficult issue. But having a broken market absolutely should be on the agenda of the government of the day.

[Slick]

Agree it's been a decade and a half of constant focus on immigration. Starting with the hostile environment policy when May was in the Home Office. You can capture a lot of UK politics through that time just by following the immigration debate. It was all nonsense, immigration went up massively. Tories just used it to dog whistle and get votes, it's what Brexit was about too.

Labour are the government now, they can just talk about something else. Government sets the tone, if Labour are saying a whole load of stuff on house building and planning or whatever, that cannot be ignored. If they choose to talk about immigration and make promises on that (which are not serious), they're just fuelling something that they cannot win.

Nothing good would come from a Frog Face government, just another round of populism making a further round of populism in response to the damage he inflicts more likely.

The problem for Labour is that yes they could talk about planning reform but the UK voters also dislike planning reform and don't want new houses or infrastructure. And then Mr Farage dominates the media which actually decides what we discuss daily.

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

[_Os_]

Paying shit wages but having the state subsidise it by granting citizenship to the employee and multiple dependants seems a less than ideal system to me.

The market dictates the wages. People who think there's a lot of British people willing to do that work just don't know what they're talking about. The alternative is very likely no care system, which given the odd story I see on the news concerning people caring for relatives and being unable to survive (they cannot work if they're caring), meaning they need more welfare/benefits, may be happening.

It's deep into fruit pickers territory. The alternative to no foreign fruit pickers is no fruit industry.

Well, yes. British folk will go into care work if they are paid properly.

What salary are you going to set for that sector and who pays?

The reality is they're not doing the work. How is axing immigrant care workers actually going to work then?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

In advance this might be quite smart from Labour on the politics front. They can now say, if they deliver (and reducing migration by the 100k they think this well might well not be enough), we're electing to take this economic hit because it's the will of the people whenever their miserable growth figures for the economy are presented to them from now on.

If the reduction of 100k on the net migration cont doesn't feel like a reduction to anyone, and it might well not, then that could limit the amount of blame they can swap from themselves to being the first government to cut migration

[_Os_]

The problem for Labour is that yes they could talk about planning reform but the UK voters also dislike planning reform and don't want new houses or infrastructure. And then Mr Farage dominates the media which actually decides what we discuss daily.

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

The Tories did plenty, none of it was serious or grounded in reality so it achieved nothing other than harming people.

Labour aren't going to win any votes from immigration, because the core of this is about UK demographic changing and there being less white people. How the fuck are Labour going to change that? The immigration debate in the UK is detached from reality, it doesn't matter what Labour do they're winning no votes there.

People are just going to have to feel the pain of Reform I suspect. Fairly unbelievable given the scale of recent UK populism, but if that's who they vote for ...

[Paddington Bear]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

[fishfoodie]

The problem for Labour is that yes they could talk about planning reform but the UK voters also dislike planning reform and don't want new houses or infrastructure. And then Mr Farage dominates the media which actually decides what we discuss daily.

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

Maybe 18 months ago I saw a podcast & they had a brilliant chart that compared media references, to where voters put immigration on their list of priorities.

The take away was that when the Right-Wing media weren't continually banging on about it, immigration dropped way down the list of priorities, below the NHS, the Economy, the cost of living, Policing, Housing etc etc; but because the Tories (at the time), didn't want to address their failures around all of these for the last 14 years, they preferred to have immigration continually be in the news cycle, & the electorate took the bait !

Labour is stupidly acting as if immigration is more important than the things people really care about, & will care about when the next GE rolls around. The Tories weren't kicked out because of immigration, but the multitude of things that directly effect the lives of voters every day !

[_Os_]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

[Yeeb]

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

Maybe 18 months ago I saw a podcast & they had a brilliant chart that compared media references, to where voters put immigration on their list of priorities.

The take away was that when the Right-Wing media weren't continually banging on about it, immigration dropped way down the list of priorities, below the NHS, the Economy, the cost of living, Policing, Housing etc etc; but because the Tories (at the time), didn't want to address their failures around all of these for the last 14 years, they preferred to have immigration continually be in the news cycle, & the electorate took the bait !

Labour is stupidly acting as if immigration is more important than the things people really care about, & will care about when the next GE rolls around. The Tories weren't kicked out because of immigration, but the multitude of things that directly effect the lives of voters every day !

You are genuinely insane if you think it’s only right wing media that goes on about it. What Slick says is 100% correct , Reform are picking up votes there purely because nobody else has done anything about it in decades, had Greens or LD taken up that immigration Baton earlier then they would have been as high in the polls.

Traditonal left and right wing leaning and voting have become almost meaningless , and have been since Brexit referendum when staunch left wales / north / east / and LD South west rural voted leave, and staunch left wing cities voted remain. Look at where Reform are picking up votes and then see is it mostly from Labour heartlands or Tory ones , and find the answer is : both.

Bleating on about Tories just shows your own bias and not political reality / populism drivers.

[Deveron Boy]

Now an embargo on recruiting from abroad for the care sector. There is currently 130,000 vacancies in the sector, who do they elderly racists expect will be available to wipe their arse when required?

[_Os_]

Now an embargo on recruiting from abroad for the care sector. There is currently 130,000 vacancies in the sector, who do they elderly racists expect will be available to wipe their arse when required?

Their relatives who will have to quit their jobs. I'm not making that up either.

[Yeeb]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

Bingo ! Thatcher !

[_Os_]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

Bingo ! Thatcher !

The UK was always an net emigrant country, it sent people out into the world. When did that change and why?

Fairly important thing to understand if you do actually want less immigration. Doesn't feature anywhere in the debate, because the debate is completely mad.

[Yeeb]

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

Bingo ! Thatcher !

The UK was always an net emigrant country, it sent people out into the world. When did that change and why?

Fairly important thing to understand if you do actually want less immigration. Doesn't feature anywhere in the debate, because the debate is completely mad.

Are you going to blame Thatcher for things like aging population, decline in birth rates , people having fewer kids later in life etc similar to what’s seen in other western countries whose migratory patterns have followed similar trend ?

You could equally say she made the country less shit so there was less need for people to emigrate looking for work than in post war era.

[_Os_]

Bingo ! Thatcher !

The UK was always an net emigrant country, it sent people out into the world. When did that change and why?

Fairly important thing to understand if you do actually want less immigration. Doesn't feature anywhere in the debate, because the debate is completely mad.

Are you going to blame Thatcher for things like aging population, decline in birth rates , people having fewer kids later in life etc similar to what’s seen in other western countries whose migratory patterns have followed similar trend ?

You could equally say she made the country less shit so there was less need for people to emigrate looking for work than in post war era.

She's famous for changing the entire structure of the UK economy, no one since has undone her structural reforms, the opposite, her reforms have been deepened since. Maybe If I provide a graph you can point to where the change to net immigration started?

[Yeeb]

The UK was always an net emigrant country, it sent people out into the world. When did that change and why?

Fairly important thing to understand if you do actually want less immigration. Doesn't feature anywhere in the debate, because the debate is completely mad.

Are you going to blame Thatcher for things like aging population, decline in birth rates , people having fewer kids later in life etc similar to what’s seen in other western countries whose migratory patterns have followed similar trend ?

You could equally say she made the country less shit so there was less need for people to emigrate looking for work than in post war era.

She's famous for changing the entire structure of the UK economy, no one since has undone her structural reforms, the opposite, her reforms have been deepened since. Maybe If I provide a graph you can point to where the change to net immigration started?

I can agree she made the country less shit relative to other countries in the 1980’s so people didn’t have to leave so much to find work because big bang et al made the domestic opportunities better and could leave foreign visits to just holidays .

Unsure quite how you tie her into that 1962 wobble or the post 1998 spike

[_Os_]

Are you going to blame Thatcher for things like aging population, decline in birth rates , people having fewer kids later in life etc similar to what’s seen in other western countries whose migratory patterns have followed similar trend ?

You could equally say she made the country less shit so there was less need for people to emigrate looking for work than in post war era.

She's famous for changing the entire structure of the UK economy, no one since has undone her structural reforms, the opposite, her reforms have been deepened since. Maybe If I provide a graph you can point to where the change to net immigration started?

I can agree she made the country less shit relative to other countries in the 1980’s so people didn’t have to leave so much to find work because big bang et al made the domestic opportunities better and could leave foreign visits to just holidays .

Unsure quite how you tie her into that 1962 wobble or the post 1998 spike

There's still people emigrating from the UK, in fact that has increased (do we need more graphs?).

A labour market that is more static and skills heavy (which will always mean unionisation too), is much harder for an immigrant to move into than one which is loose/open and often more favourable for the employer than the employee. Plenty of rubbish jobs in the UK anyone can do, some so bad the workers need welfare top ups to survive.

Don't worry Yeeb, there's zero chance of this changing. Sadly for you that also means zero chance of immigration changing much either.

[Yeeb]

She's famous for changing the entire structure of the UK economy, no one since has undone her structural reforms, the opposite, her reforms have been deepened since. Maybe If I provide a graph you can point to where the change to net immigration started?

I can agree she made the country less shit relative to other countries in the 1980’s so people didn’t have to leave so much to find work because big bang et al made the domestic opportunities better and could leave foreign visits to just holidays .

Unsure quite how you tie her into that 1962 wobble or the post 1998 spike

There's still people emigrating from the UK, in fact that has increased (do we need more graphs?).

A labour market that is more static and skills heavy (which will always mean unionisation too), is much harder for an immigrant to move into than one which is loose/open and often more favourable for the employer than the employee. Plenty of rubbish jobs in the UK anyone can do, some so bad the workers need welfare top ups to survive.

Don't worry Yeeb, there's zero chance of this changing. Sadly for you that also means zero chance of immigration changing much either.

Feel free to go with graphs that neither prove nor disprove your absolute shambles of a thought pattern re cause and effect. There have always been rubbish jobs , you seem to pine for the unions of the 70’s or somehow think those jobs they helped terminate like mining , putting a Morris marina together etc were high skill ?

[Paddington Bear]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

That ‘plateau’ came after they increased annual net migration from c.40,000. So to the extent they controlled it as you say, they did so having increased it more than five-fold.

As for why people mention Blair with migration, the first reason is above. The second reason is that for most people immigrants are largely NPCs - they don’t mix with them socially, they don’t work alongside them and they certainly don’y live alongside them. So it takes a while to filter through that things have changed. What makes the post-covid boom so remarkable is how quickly it has cut through - partially due to sheer numbers and partially because they are so clearly less skilled and less integrated than previous immigrants.

No debate that this was the fault of the Tories, but Labour are in government now so need to deal with it. ILR is the ticking time bomb here they’re starting to realise they need to grasp.

[_Os_]

I can agree she made the country less shit relative to other countries in the 1980’s so people didn’t have to leave so much to find work because big bang et al made the domestic opportunities better and could leave foreign visits to just holidays .

Unsure quite how you tie her into that 1962 wobble or the post 1998 spike

There's still people emigrating from the UK, in fact that has increased (do we need more graphs?).

A labour market that is more static and skills heavy (which will always mean unionisation too), is much harder for an immigrant to move into than one which is loose/open and often more favourable for the employer than the employee. Plenty of rubbish jobs in the UK anyone can do, some so bad the workers need welfare top ups to survive.

Don't worry Yeeb, there's zero chance of this changing. Sadly for you that also means zero chance of immigration changing much either.

Feel free to go with graphs that neither prove nor disprove your absolute shambles of a thought pattern re cause and effect. There have always been rubbish jobs , you seem to pine for the unions of the 70’s or somehow think those jobs they helped terminate like mining , putting a Morris marina together etc were high skill ?

Other countries in Europe retained their car industry just fine, someone can not rock up and just start doing those jobs. Only Germany and France got high immigration out of those countries. Germany because it wanted it. France because (like the UK) it's a former large colonial power so there'll always be people that want to go there.

Here is your graph (source, Commons library) to explain why people didn't stop emigrating after Thatcher. Not the case that net migration switched from net emigration to net immigration because life was so good less people left. That is something you made up.

[_Os_]

Net migration since the covid pandemic has been the largest migration in the history of the British Isles, both in total numbers and proportionately (it towers over the Hugenouts/Windrush etc).

We’ve covered the effects of this ad nauseum, but probably the underrated one for why this needs politically to be addressed is that it is now basically impossible to miss that the demographics of the country (and not just a few cities) are being changed beyond all measure.

We also know beyond any real debate that this wave of migration is earning less money, is less likely to be employed, and is bringing more dependents than any previous wave. The political centre hasn’t caught up to this and still talks about new arrivals like they’re the Poles of 20 years ago.

Re: care work. Hundreds of thousands of visas have been given out for this in the space of what 3 years. How many more hundreds of thousands do we need? At what point do we accept that the issue is one of pay? Brits do plenty of shitty jobs, they just want something more than minimum wage for their trouble. Given your average care worker has brought three dependents with them, it would be far cheaper for the government to financially incentivise Brits to do the job.

Overall, something you see in the country, you see in polling and you don’t see replicated in the majority on here or in the political ‘centre’ is that the national mood has massively darkened on migration and parties can either move with it or get swept away. It really isn’t hard to work out why unless you are not paying attention.

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

That ‘plateau’ came after they increased annual net migration from c.40,000. So to the extent they controlled it as you say, they did so having increased it more than five-fold.

As for why people mention Blair with migration, the first reason is above. The second reason is that for most people immigrants are largely NPCs - they don’t mix with them socially, they don’t work alongside them and they certainly don’y live alongside them. So it takes a while to filter through that things have changed. What makes the post-covid boom so remarkable is how quickly it has cut through - partially due to sheer numbers and partially because they are so clearly less skilled and less integrated than previous immigrants.

No debate that this was the fault of the Tories, but Labour are in government now so need to deal with it. ILR is the ticking time bomb here they’re starting to realise they need to grasp.

If they start fiddling with things like ILR and citizenship, they're setting up quite a dangerous (and ultimately unsustainable) situation where there's millions of people that have been in the UK for decades but have reduced rights, who aren't going anywhere. If you want zero integration the failure of the German guest worker programme is the best way to alienate people.

I would be surprised if it ever goes down to the New Labour levels again, short of some radical changes to education/skills and the structure of the entire UK economy. Labour are talking about 550k.

Tice was on Channel 4, he was talking about "no income tax until you earn £20k", a "market led solution", "net zero immigration", "cut benefits", "force the young to work". Talked over the interviewer a lot when challenged. Sounds like total nonsense to me.

[Paddington Bear]

And the people who did all that were the Tories. Labour cannot now undo things which have already happened.

The crucial thing about migration is the UK switched from being a net emigrant to net immigrant country under Thatcher. It was her reforms which killed skilled unionised labour, and introduced a loose open labour market. If Labour now suddenly have to switch to net zero immigration (as per Reform), then it's not going to happen without nuking the economy. Which is why the Tories failed, they tried to reverse immigration but found it was economically impossible by the time every sector had lobbied them.

This has happened before, the last time immigration was actually "controlled" was under New Labour, it plateaued when they were in power at around net 250k. There's still people around today in 2025 blaming Tony Blair for basically all immigration.

People just have to crack on and vote Reform if that's what they want.

That ‘plateau’ came after they increased annual net migration from c.40,000. So to the extent they controlled it as you say, they did so having increased it more than five-fold.

As for why people mention Blair with migration, the first reason is above. The second reason is that for most people immigrants are largely NPCs - they don’t mix with them socially, they don’t work alongside them and they certainly don’y live alongside them. So it takes a while to filter through that things have changed. What makes the post-covid boom so remarkable is how quickly it has cut through - partially due to sheer numbers and partially because they are so clearly less skilled and less integrated than previous immigrants.

No debate that this was the fault of the Tories, but Labour are in government now so need to deal with it. ILR is the ticking time bomb here they’re starting to realise they need to grasp.

If they start fiddling with things like ILR and citizenship, they're setting up quite a dangerous (and ultimately unsustainable) situation where there's millions of people that have been in the UK for decades but have very little rights, who aren't going anywhere. If you want zero integration the failure of the German guest worker programme is the best way to alienate people.

I would be surprised if it ever goes down to the New Labour levels again, short of some radical changes to education/skills and the structure of the entire UK economy. Labour are talking about 550k.

Tice was on Channel 4, he was talking about "no income tax until you earn £20k", a "market led solution", "net zero immigration", "cut benefits", "force the young to work". Talked over the interviewer a lot when challenged. Sounds like total nonsense to me.

I don’t see how it’s sustainable for millions of people to live in the country for five years and then have all the same rights as the rest of us, and I wouldn’t expect it if I lived abroad in return. With our far more liberal approach than the Germans we also have a hopelessly poorly integrated minority group in Pakistanis so I’m not convinced that allowing people to claim PIP and vote are the secret sauce to race relations.

If they don’t touch ILR, given the quantity and (lack of) skills of the post-covid brigade, they’re going to collapse the welfare state and consent for it.

[_Os_]

That ‘plateau’ came after they increased annual net migration from c.40,000. So to the extent they controlled it as you say, they did so having increased it more than five-fold.

As for why people mention Blair with migration, the first reason is above. The second reason is that for most people immigrants are largely NPCs - they don’t mix with them socially, they don’t work alongside them and they certainly don’y live alongside them. So it takes a while to filter through that things have changed. What makes the post-covid boom so remarkable is how quickly it has cut through - partially due to sheer numbers and partially because they are so clearly less skilled and less integrated than previous immigrants.

No debate that this was the fault of the Tories, but Labour are in government now so need to deal with it. ILR is the ticking time bomb here they’re starting to realise they need to grasp.

If they start fiddling with things like ILR and citizenship, they're setting up quite a dangerous (and ultimately unsustainable) situation where there's millions of people that have been in the UK for decades but have very little rights, who aren't going anywhere. If you want zero integration the failure of the German guest worker programme is the best way to alienate people.

I would be surprised if it ever goes down to the New Labour levels again, short of some radical changes to education/skills and the structure of the entire UK economy. Labour are talking about 550k.

Tice was on Channel 4, he was talking about "no income tax until you earn £20k", a "market led solution", "net zero immigration", "cut benefits", "force the young to work". Talked over the interviewer a lot when challenged. Sounds like total nonsense to me.

I don’t see how it’s sustainable for millions of people to live in the country for five years and then have all the same rights as the rest of us, and I wouldn’t expect it if I lived abroad in return. With our far more liberal approach than the Germans we also have a hopelessly poorly integrated minority group in Pakistanis so I’m not convinced that allowing people to claim PIP and vote are the secret sauce to race relations.

If they don’t touch ILR, given the quantity and (lack of) skills of the post-covid brigade, they’re going to collapse the welfare state and consent for it.

Germany has citizenship based on blood, the UK on soil. Blood systems are stricter, sometimes you don't acquire citizenship in those countries even if you're born there to legally resident parents (which I believe is the case in Germany). The UK ended up mostly with a soil based system to exclude a lot of colonial people from British citizenship (parts of the West Indies were colonies before the UK existed, they were colonies of England first). So citizenship ended up being mostly about residency of the UK.

I've posted before that I've completed Windrush Scheme applications for relatives. If the state tells people they're not wanted, then you'll get zero integration even from white English speakers. Quickest way to achieve maximum alienation.

[Paddington Bear]

If they start fiddling with things like ILR and citizenship, they're setting up quite a dangerous (and ultimately unsustainable) situation where there's millions of people that have been in the UK for decades but have very little rights, who aren't going anywhere. If you want zero integration the failure of the German guest worker programme is the best way to alienate people.

I would be surprised if it ever goes down to the New Labour levels again, short of some radical changes to education/skills and the structure of the entire UK economy. Labour are talking about 550k.

Tice was on Channel 4, he was talking about "no income tax until you earn £20k", a "market led solution", "net zero immigration", "cut benefits", "force the young to work". Talked over the interviewer a lot when challenged. Sounds like total nonsense to me.

I don’t see how it’s sustainable for millions of people to live in the country for five years and then have all the same rights as the rest of us, and I wouldn’t expect it if I lived abroad in return. With our far more liberal approach than the Germans we also have a hopelessly poorly integrated minority group in Pakistanis so I’m not convinced that allowing people to claim PIP and vote are the secret sauce to race relations.

If they don’t touch ILR, given the quantity and (lack of) skills of the post-covid brigade, they’re going to collapse the welfare state and consent for it.

Germany has citizenship based on blood, the UK on soil. Blood systems are stricter, sometimes you don't acquire citizenship in those countries even if you're born there to legally resident parents (which I believe is the case in Germany). The UK ended up mostly with a soil based system to exclude a lot of colonial people from British citizenship (parts of the West Indies were colonies before the UK existed, they were colonies of England first). So citizenship ended up being mostly about residency of the UK.

I've posted before that I've completed Windrush Scheme applications for relatives. If the state tells people they're not wanted, then you'll get zero integration even from white English speakers. Quickest way to achieve maximum alienation.

That is both a gross oversimplification of British nationality law and totally irrelevant to everything we have been discussing above

[Slick]

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

Maybe 18 months ago I saw a podcast & they had a brilliant chart that compared media references, to where voters put immigration on their list of priorities.

The take away was that when the Right-Wing media weren't continually banging on about it, immigration dropped way down the list of priorities, below the NHS, the Economy, the cost of living, Policing, Housing etc etc; but because the Tories (at the time), didn't want to address their failures around all of these for the last 14 years, they preferred to have immigration continually be in the news cycle, & the electorate took the bait !

Labour is stupidly acting as if immigration is more important than the things people really care about, & will care about when the next GE rolls around. The Tories weren't kicked out because of immigration, but the multitude of things that directly effect the lives of voters every day !

We’ve had Brexit, we had the Tory’s getting a smashing and now the rise and rise of Reform but still folk are still saying no one cares about immigration. It’s total madness

[Slick]

But Labour can actually win some votes with planning reform, which is the case for just about any subject other than immigration. The people voting based on immigration are going to go with whatever Frog Face says, fully loaded up for another round of populism. As Yeeb makes clear if you're not killing people/sending them to camps/deporting British citizens who don't look right, then good luck winning any of them.

Nope, I think that is nonsense. Immigration has been come a much more mainstream issue because fuck all has been done about it. Plenty of people are holding their noses and voting Reform precisely because no one has done anything about it. Labour will win back many, many more votes through immigration than planning, which most people don't really give a fuck about. The question is if they can actually do anything effective, rather than should they try. The answer is probably, no.

The Tories did plenty, none of it was serious or grounded in reality so it achieved nothing other than harming people.

Labour aren't going to win any votes from immigration, because the core of this is about UK demographic changing and there being less white people. How the fuck are Labour going to change that? The immigration debate in the UK is detached from reality, it doesn't matter what Labour do they're winning no votes there.

People are just going to have to feel the pain of Reform I suspect. Fairly unbelievable given the scale of recent UK populism, but if that's who they vote for ...

I might be misunderstanding you OS, but a few posts ago you were boasting about apparently being the only person who noticed Brexit was about immigration (despite loads of us on here saying it for years) and now saying it’s not really about immigration.

On the care homes bit, of course there are people who will work in the sector for decent wages. There are loads of U.K. workers that have worked in the sector and then left as wages and conditions got worse, like nursing, and they found themselves getting undercut by cheap labour. These care homes earn a fucking fortune, many are owned by Private Equity. There is enough money to pay a decent wage and now they might have to

[_Os_]

I don’t see how it’s sustainable for millions of people to live in the country for five years and then have all the same rights as the rest of us, and I wouldn’t expect it if I lived abroad in return. With our far more liberal approach than the Germans we also have a hopelessly poorly integrated minority group in Pakistanis so I’m not convinced that allowing people to claim PIP and vote are the secret sauce to race relations.

If they don’t touch ILR, given the quantity and (lack of) skills of the post-covid brigade, they’re going to collapse the welfare state and consent for it.

Germany has citizenship based on blood, the UK on soil. Blood systems are stricter, sometimes you don't acquire citizenship in those countries even if you're born there to legally resident parents (which I believe is the case in Germany). The UK ended up mostly with a soil based system to exclude a lot of colonial people from British citizenship (parts of the West Indies were colonies before the UK existed, they were colonies of England first). So citizenship ended up being mostly about residency of the UK.

I've posted before that I've completed Windrush Scheme applications for relatives. If the state tells people they're not wanted, then you'll get zero integration even from white English speakers. Quickest way to achieve maximum alienation.

That is both a gross oversimplification of British nationality law and totally irrelevant to everything we have been discussing above

It was accurate for a few sentences. It's relevant, because the system is jus soli based. Not like Germany, not like Ireland.

If the plan is to kick out the length of time to qualify for ILR and then citizenship, you then have a jus soli based system with the pitfall of a jus sanguinis system, they're terrible at integrating immigrants (see Germany). The UK would then have the worst of both systems.

If someone is on a visa for a decade until they can get ILR then another decade before citizenship. And potentially the immigration system can change again during that time to their detriment. And there's millions of other people in that situation including their family members. Obviously they're going to conclude "well fuck becoming British, because they keep telling me I'm not British".

A very stupid move to make. That alienation can last generations too. Irish Americans still exist, plenty of Irish went to Southern Africa, no one told them they didn't belong and there is no Irish community there (despite their descendants still existing there).

[Hal Jordan]

People will "hold their nose and vote Reform" amd we will get the same type of administration that's currently fucking America into third world dictatorship status as the same type of people that backed MAGA/Project 25 are backing Farage.

It can't happen here (oh yeah?)