Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[_Os_]

If you actually read the source of your data you would find the bit where they say that net movements +/- 100k per year are deemed to have no effect on overall county demographics due to being under 0.02% of the population and immaterial to the vagaries of normal birth and death rates across different demographics. That aligns to past targets from Cameron etc that +100k per year is ‘sustainable’ , whilst 1.1m per year is not. All you have really proved is that any net movements pre Blair were in fact sustainable and immaterial (backed up by the overall population growth during years of net emigration from the Uk)

Looking at only Net figures are a bit silly really, if 1m white Essex chavs emigrated to Costa del Boys in 1979 and 1m Pakistani males under 30 moved to Essex in the same year, there would be zero net movement and yet the demographics of the area would change considerably - this is in fact what has happened, not your Thatch-fest 2+2=5 dumbness of aligning cause and effect for your own agenda.

First paragraph is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that Thatcher's economic changes in the '80s started the increase in immigration. I've made no argument about what is sustainable and if it is good or bad. The point is simply that she changed the structure of the UK economy in a significant way and the impacts have rolled out over time. Conservatives always underestimate how revolutionary the market is, which is why you never manage to conserve anything. Thatcher opened up a freer market in labour.

Second paragraph, we've been over this already and I gave you a graph for that too. Immigration went up in absolute terms and relative to emigration (net), starting with Thatcher.

I’m saying that if you can ignore the huge leap Blair onwards caused , then I can show your own data was largely irrelevant and that yearly changes +/-100k pa is largely irrelevant on its own as a stat, and one even the most ardent reformer says is ‘sustainable’.

In that case I think we're arguing past eachother and making different points. You're not really replying to the point I'm making (well you are, you're just making a whole other argument).

In response to what you're saying (increase under Blair what is and isn't sustainable). New Labour started trying to control immigration once they were pressured on the issue by the BNP, the graph shows under New Labour it wasn't a march ever upwards it stabilised at around 250k net. The thing is the Tories tried to roll that back further after 2010 and could not (pre-Brexit, pre-Big Dog), their efforts made life more inconvenient for immigrants legally in the UK and that was about it, but they weren't trying to pack immigrants in. From about 2005-2015 you basically have two at least somewhat competent governments involving all three main parties, and they could not push immigration down to the levels you want, that was in more economically favourable conditions for at least part of that time too (although arguably, worse economic conditions help if you want immigration reduced)..

Reform have to be measured on what they're saying, and what they're saying is "net zero" not "100k a year net is okay". They talk about it like a night club "one person leaves one may come in". Of course as you've pointed out in reply to me, you still get demographic change that way, but I'm sure the Reformers definitely realise that and know what they're voting for.

As for what is sustainable what has happened post-Brexit doesn't look sustainable. But what is and isn't does start getting a bit how long is a piece of string, what is the basis for saying 100k is sustainable but 250k is not? What if I say 0 to 50k is sustainable and your claim of 100k is outrageous and unsustainable?

[I like neeps]

who/what is Chopper?

Christopher Hope their PolEd formerly of the Telegraph who calls himself chopper for some reason.

[_Os_]

Yeeb, how do you actually intend to get rid of "pool shitters"? And who are they exactly, just all foreigners, only some foreigners, some British people included?

You thought Brexit would and it did not. It did the opposite.

You also seem to claim the structure of the UK economy is fine and doesn't stimulate immigration (or depend on it, however you wish to phrase it).

It's entirely obvious if you want (literally) business as usual and no immigrants, it's never going to happen.

So how do you actually propose to do it?

It’s always been within UK’s power to be able to control its borders in theory , in practice governments of either party have been terrible at this pre, during and post Brexit. This failure is what has caused reform to exist and gain support.

You literally ask for clarification on what poolshitters entails which is of little surprise seeing as you are pretty deluded -it can be summarized as;
All people who enter country illegally
People who entered legally but then committed say a capital crime such as blowing up children at a concert
People born in Uk , possible British citizens , who then act in such as way that a few decades again would have seen them executed for treason (eg that begum sort)

Not once has anyone ever said immigration per se is bad , you just showing your own agenda with that extrapolation.

As for the how to police the borders better, well a combo of:
Greek coastguard tactics in the channel
Award far less visas to visit
Strengthen greatly the whole vetting process of who gets in, so the ratio of doctors & engineers to child murderers rapists and pool shitters is improved
Some sort of test before entry , covering not just linguistics but ability to be tolerant , intergrate, and not murder children
And a raising of the bond provided so there is a bigger financial penalty should any doctor or engineer accidentally murder a child

Plus some sort of re-vetting / register / evaluation of should they really be given a 5 bed house in London , if those already here , should be easy enough to review a few barber shops , car washes, and deliveroo bikers outside maccers.

You attributing all woes to thatcher , is akin to me attributing all woes to Blair encouraging gains in the sort of people more likely to vote for his party in the future and gaming the system. But from your own graphs , one of those assertions is closer to the truth than another…

Nah, they were value free open ended questions to establish your position. If you choose to reply with insults (as you have throughout this exchange), then you're just reading into things that aren't there. You've been around white Saffas enough to know we're not rattled by any of that, tend to just see it as invite to keep going. Anyway ...

So you want illegal immigrants removed and people who are British citizens who have committed crimes. Those are the "pool shitters". I don't think this will have much impact on net immigration numbers.

[Yeeb]

First paragraph is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is that Thatcher's economic changes in the '80s started the increase in immigration. I've made no argument about what is sustainable and if it is good or bad. The point is simply that she changed the structure of the UK economy in a significant way and the impacts have rolled out over time. Conservatives always underestimate how revolutionary the market is, which is why you never manage to conserve anything. Thatcher opened up a freer market in labour.

Second paragraph, we've been over this already and I gave you a graph for that too. Immigration went up in absolute terms and relative to emigration (net), starting with Thatcher.

I’m saying that if you can ignore the huge leap Blair onwards caused , then I can show your own data was largely irrelevant and that yearly changes +/-100k pa is largely irrelevant on its own as a stat, and one even the most ardent reformer says is ‘sustainable’.

In that case I think we're arguing past eachother and making different points. You're not really replying to the point I'm making (well you are, you're just making a whole other argument).

In response to what you're saying (increase under Blair what is and isn't sustainable). New Labour started trying to control immigration once they were pressured on the issue by the BNP, the graph shows under New Labour it wasn't a march ever upwards it stabilised at around 250k net. The thing is the Tories tried to roll that back further after 2010 and could not (pre-Brexit, pre-Big Dog), their efforts made life more inconvenient for immigrants legally in the UK and that was about it, but they weren't trying to pack immigrants in. From about 2005-2015 you basically have two at least somewhat competent governments involving all three main parties, and they could not push immigration down to the levels you want, that was in more economically favourable conditions for at least part of that time too (although arguably, worse economic conditions help if you want immigration reduced)..

Reform have to be measured on what they're saying, and what they're saying is "net zero" not "100k a year net is okay". They talk about it like a night club "one person leaves one may come in". Of course as you've pointed out in reply to me, you still get demographic change that way, but I'm sure the Reformers definitely realise that and know what they're voting for.

As for what is sustainable what has happened post-Brexit doesn't look sustainable. But what is and isn't does start getting a bit how long is a piece of string, what is the basis for saying 100k is sustainable but 250k is not? What if I say 0 to 50k is sustainable and your claim of 100k is outrageous and unsustainable?

Holy Jesus you are dumb / it was the source of your own graph that said 100k pa was sustainable, try reading what you source or what I’ve already described. Quick google also shows that 100k was the sustainable figure touted by politicians in the past, not being a population analyst I have no way myself of knowing the veracity of that but seems reasonable. For me, govt source plus numerous past politicians like Cameron , is good enough for me as a headline figure .

[mat the expat]

Thames Water again taking the piss - and not in the only way they should be

Ministers to block Thames Water paying bosses bonuses out of emergency loan

Exclusive: Firm close to insolvency says using £3bn loan to pay ‘substantial’ bonuses is vital to retain senior managers

Ministers plan to use new powers to block bosses from Thames Water taking bonuses worth hundreds of thousands of pounds as the company fights for survival, the Guardian can reveal.

Britain’s biggest water company admitted this week that senior managers are in line for “substantial” bonuses linked to an emergency £3bn loan.

Thames claimed the payouts were vital to retain staff and prevent rival companies from “picking off” its best employees. But the disclosure provoked fury as the company has said its finances are “hair raising” and that it had come “very close to running out of money entirely” last year.

Full story at https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... dApp_Other

Given the absolute state of Thames, I'm not sure anyone in line for a big bonus could be described as one of the 'best employees' and them fucking off elsewhere might be entirely welcome.

They should be paying back any bonuses!

[Biffer]

Romania has rejected the far right. Well done them.

[mat the expat]

Romania has rejected the far right. Well done them.

Definitely a good thing!

[Hal Jordan]

Romania has rejected the far right. Well done them.

By engaging the youth vote and offering some message of hope for them and the country. I would say lessons could be learned by some, but I doubt they will.

[Biffer]

Big deal with the EU incoming. There will be screaming about Brexit betrayal from the usual cavalcade of fucktards but we need this.

What this is all about is Russia. Aggressive and expansionist, with the US pretty much telling them to carry on and they won’t fulfil their NATO obligations. The UK being part of a coordinated European defence alignment is important to both sides, on a whole set of different layers - second nuclear power, significant armed forces, defence manufacturing, geographic security, it’s a long list.

For us all, this alignment could mean straightforward stuff like using the automatic gates in the eu. Small but positive effect on the lives of uk citizens. Vet check alignment helps food import and export substantially. Youth freedom of movement, lots of other good stuff in there.

[robmatic]

Big deal with the EU incoming. There will be screaming about Brexit betrayal from the usual cavalcade of fucktards but we need this.

What this is all about is Russia. Aggressive and expansionist, with the US pretty much telling them to carry on and they won’t fulfil their NATO obligations. The UK being part of a coordinated European defence alignment is important to both sides, on a whole set of different layers - second nuclear power, significant armed forces, defence manufacturing, geographic security, it’s a long list.

For us all, this alignment could mean straightforward stuff like using the automatic gates in the eu. Small but positive effect on the lives of uk citizens. Vet check alignment helps food import and export substantially. Youth freedom of movement, lots of other good stuff in there.

Not having to deal with passport queues will probably quieten 90% of the complaints about Brexit.

[Paddington Bear]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

[Lobby]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Ireland and UK have a Common Travel Area agreement that predates both countries' entry into the EU. There is complete freedom of movement between UK and Ireland and you don't even need to show your passport, so not sure why you were using any sort of non-EU gate to enter Ireland.

[Paddington Bear]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Ireland and UK have a Common Travel Area agreement that predates both countries' entry into the EU. There is complete freedom of movement between UK and Ireland and you don't even need to show your passport, so not sure why you were using any sort of non-EU gate to enter Ireland.

I’m well aware of that, but for reasons that are no doubt a reminder that they are a nation I have never found a way of exiting an Irish airport that doesn’t require showing your passport

[SaintK]

Big deal with the EU incoming. There will be screaming about Brexit betrayal from the usual cavalcade of fucktards but we need this.

What this is all about is Russia. Aggressive and expansionist, with the US pretty much telling them to carry on and they won’t fulfil their NATO obligations. The UK being part of a coordinated European defence alignment is important to both sides, on a whole set of different layers - second nuclear power, significant armed forces, defence manufacturing, geographic security, it’s a long list.

For us all, this alignment could mean straightforward stuff like using the automatic gates in the eu. Small but positive effect on the lives of uk citizens. Vet check alignment helps food import and export substantially. Youth freedom of movement, lots of other good stuff in there.

Yep, Frost, Farage, Patel and the right wing press already whining.
Just waiting for the lying blonde slug who fucked us all over to chime in.

[Biffer]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Having it as standard across the EU is a big step towards better alignment though. A very public step by the EU.

[Lobby]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Ireland and UK have a Common Travel Area agreement that predates both countries' entry into the EU. There is complete freedom of movement between UK and Ireland and you don't even need to show your passport, so not sure why you were using any sort of non-EU gate to enter Ireland.

I’m well aware of that, but for reasons that are no doubt a reminder that they are a nation I have never found a way of exiting an Irish airport that doesn’t require showing your passport

Fair enough. When I visited Ireland last year we went by Ferry; we were asked where we were from and when we said UK, were simply waved through without having to produce any documents.

[Sandstorm]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Having it as standard across the EU is a big step towards better alignment though. A very public step by the EU.

I like the second check on your UK passport at EU airports - they herd Brits into a separate gate area away from the hordes of sulky, pushy Krauts in the terminal.

[SaintK]

Buyers remorse big style

[Yeeb]

Buyers remorse big style

Also had had ten years of leave voters dying , and ten more years worth of Yoof now entering polling age. Doubt whether many who voted leave and still are around would have changed their opinion.
Any stat or graph needs context .

[robmatic]

Buyers remorse big style

Also had had ten years of leave voters dying , and ten more years worth of Yoof now entering polling age. Doubt whether many who voted leave and still are around would have changed their opinion.
Any stat or graph needs context .

I dunno, 10 years of shit economic growth and rampant immigration from the Global South might have actually changed a few minds about the sunny uplands of Brexit.

[Paddington Bear]

Automatic gates appears to be basically at the discretion of the nation you enter since Brexit. I’ve used them in Greece, Spain and Denmark and haven’t in France and Ireland.

Having it as standard across the EU is a big step towards better alignment though. A very public step by the EU.

To be honest with the amount of luggage my wife travels with getting out of an airport is an ordeal, regardless of how long it takes to get through passport control

[Yeeb]

Buyers remorse big style

Also had had ten years of leave voters dying , and ten more years worth of Yoof now entering polling age. Doubt whether many who voted leave and still are around would have changed their opinion.
Any stat or graph needs context .

I dunno, 10 years of shit economic growth and rampant immigration from the Global South might have actually changed a few minds about the sunny uplands of Brexit.

That doesn’t really sit with the reality of rising support for Reform

[lemonhead]

Also had had ten years of leave voters dying , and ten more years worth of Yoof now entering polling age. Doubt whether many who voted leave and still are around would have changed their opinion.
Any stat or graph needs context .

I dunno, 10 years of shit economic growth and rampant immigration from the Global South might have actually changed a few minds about the sunny uplands of Brexit.

That doesn’t really sit with the reality of rising support for Reform

Don't see how they're mutually exclusive.

In fact wouldn't you expect Reform to directly benefit under such a scenario.

[Insane_Homer]

I dunno, 10 years of shit economic growth and rampant immigration from the Global South might have actually changed a few minds about the sunny uplands of Brexit.

That doesn’t really sit with the reality of rising support for Reform

One can still be racist to the core and also realise Brexshit was a economic failure and had zero effect on keeping the foreigns out.

[Yeeb]

I dunno, 10 years of shit economic growth and rampant immigration from the Global South might have actually changed a few minds about the sunny uplands of Brexit.

That doesn’t really sit with the reality of rising support for Reform

One can still be racist to the core and also realise Brexshit was a economic failure and had zero effect on keeping the foreigns out.

Well after today’s agreement , Brexit doesn’t really make much difference now to anything - handy scapegoat for every economic effect for those with an agenda who can’t / won’t blame such things like Putin , Trump or Covid

[Slick]

Can we begin to believe that Starmer is possibly playing a very good long game? Shit stuff out the way early on and slowly actually getting on the the real meat on the bone?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

That doesn’t really sit with the reality of rising support for Reform

One can still be racist to the core and also realise Brexshit was a economic failure and had zero effect on keeping the foreigns out.

Well after today’s agreement , Brexit doesn’t really make much difference now to anything - handy scapegoat for every economic effect for those with an agenda who can’t / won’t blame such things like Putin , Trump or Covid

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

[robmatic]

Can we begin to believe that Starmer is possibly playing a very good long game? Shit stuff out the way early on and slowly actually getting on the the real meat on the bone?

He is managerially competent and it has been a long time since we have seen that in government. There are probably more unpopular decisions still to come though (pensions, planning reform etc.) and he will struggle to maintain support on the left now that they have decided that he is Thatcherite Hitler.

[Slick]

Can we begin to believe that Starmer is possibly playing a very good long game? Shit stuff out the way early on and slowly actually getting on the the real meat on the bone?

He is managerially competent and it has been a long time since we have seen that in government. There are probably more unpopular decisions still to come though (pensions, planning reform etc.) and he will struggle to maintain support on the left now that they have decided that he is Thatcherite Hitler.

Same kind of thought was running through my head, at least he is competent and intellectually interested. Re Europe, it also must be helpful that for the first time in a decade we are not being represented by complete bams

[Yeeb]

One can still be racist to the core and also realise Brexshit was a economic failure and had zero effect on keeping the foreigns out.

Well after today’s agreement , Brexit doesn’t really make much difference now to anything - handy scapegoat for every economic effect for those with an agenda who can’t / won’t blame such things like Putin , Trump or Covid

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

[Slick]

Well after today’s agreement , Brexit doesn’t really make much difference now to anything - handy scapegoat for every economic effect for those with an agenda who can’t / won’t blame such things like Putin , Trump or Covid

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

shut it thicko

[Biffer]

Good demonstration there that yeeb is one of those astonishingly thick fucks to which you refer.

[Yeeb]

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

shut it thicko

Pffft, you were the one who nobbed a kiwi cheerleader , that’s thick AND blind !

[Yeeb]

Good demonstration there that yeeb is one of those astonishingly thick fucks to which you refer.

And yet you are on the same forum as me , hmmmm

[SaintK]

Big deal with the EU incoming. There will be screaming about Brexit betrayal from the usual cavalcade of fucktards but we need this.

What this is all about is Russia. Aggressive and expansionist, with the US pretty much telling them to carry on and they won’t fulfil their NATO obligations. The UK being part of a coordinated European defence alignment is important to both sides, on a whole set of different layers - second nuclear power, significant armed forces, defence manufacturing, geographic security, it’s a long list.

For us all, this alignment could mean straightforward stuff like using the automatic gates in the eu. Small but positive effect on the lives of uk citizens. Vet check alignment helps food import and export substantially. Youth freedom of movement, lots of other good stuff in there.

Yep, Frost, Farage, Patel and the right wing press already whining.
Just waiting for the lying blonde slug who fucked us all over to chime in.

...........and the cunt turns up on cue

Two-tier Keir is once again going back on his promises to the people of this country - by making us non-voting members of a two-tier European Union …

Two-tier Keir is the orange ball-chewing manacled gimp of Brussels. He has sacrificed UK fishing interests, handing over our seas to be plundered again - when under the current Brexit agreement we are on the point of taking back full legal control, next year, of every fish in our waters …

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Well after today’s agreement , Brexit doesn’t really make much difference now to anything - handy scapegoat for every economic effect for those with an agenda who can’t / won’t blame such things like Putin , Trump or Covid

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

Brexit has proved a very popular research area. Costs/losses to the UK economy are estimated to be circa £100 billion per annum, what figures are attached, ongoing that is, to Covid, Trump and Ukraine?

[Yeeb]

It's possible people thick enough to vote Brexit would believe such rancid commentary. But as positive step as the agreement might be it's vastly inferior to the SM and CU, and the push back then shouldn't have been t scrapping those anyway, but rather to progress the SM in services

For the record, in case anyone is shockingly thick, that's not suggesting Trump, Covid and Putin aren't also harmful factors, just Brexit remains a huge hit to our economy, and really the only one we did to ourselves

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

Brexit has proved a very popular research area. Costs/losses to the UK economy are estimated to be circa £100 billion per annum, what figures are attached, ongoing that is, to Covid, Trump and Ukraine?

Covid alone estimated to be £500b pa, longer term mental health and industry structure effects still being analysed and realised.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Was far smaller effect than Covid Trump Ukraine , that’s the reality however inconvenient .
Also, who is thicker , those thick to vote differently to you, or those saying those different voters are thick & expecting that to achieve anything or alter anyone’s views ?

Brexit has proved a very popular research area. Costs/losses to the UK economy are estimated to be circa £100 billion per annum, what figures are attached, ongoing that is, to Covid, Trump and Ukraine?

Covid alone estimated to be £500b pa, longer term mental health and industry structure effects still being analysed and realised.

That on the face of it sounds wrong, at the time sure, ongoing that seems... high. But even if true leaves Trump and Putin as similarly needing to cost more than £100 billion per year.

And too, suppose Trump, Covid and Putin all cost more than Brexit, that still leaves Brexit costing £100 billion per annum. Which still makes Brexit a god awful act of self-harm inflicted by morons and racists

[sockwithaticket]

I am so fucking sick of the fishing industry being held up totemically by Brexit morons as a symbol of Whitehall betrayal.

It's a tiny part of our economy and much of their catch was sold to European countries (at least pre-Brexit) 'cause Brits don't eat all that much fish and certainly not seafood.

A closer trading relationship with Europe will make things better for them if anything.

[Sandstorm]

I am so fucking sick of the fishing industry being held up totemically by Brexit morons as a symbol of Whitehall betrayal.

It's a tiny part of our economy and much of their catch was sold to European countries (at least pre-Brexit) 'cause Brits don't eat all that much fish and certainly not seafood.

A closer trading relationship with Europe will make things better for them if anything.

“Won’t someone think of the cods!!!”