President Trump and US politics catchall

[Tichtheid]

This is just silly and of course, we get back to Thatcher. A total refusal to engage with the second order consequences of policies.

The second order of consequences being the lack of self awareness to believe that the brown female candidate might be better than the white guy from the good school who has always had good grades, always got a good job - "totally self made" man?

I don’t know how many more ways I can say that that’s not what I think and that’s not what people are complaining about, suppose it’s easier to create a strawman than look at what’s actually happening

Your words that kicked this off were

Taking some anecdotal examples from my own circle, a few people I know have fairly recently missed out on big promotions due to company ‘positive’ discrimination programmes and it has to a man turned their politics from very middle of the road to really quite radical right. There’s a lot more of this to come I think

Me riffing on your very own words but keeping the meaning is not creating a strawman

If people are telling you their companies have a positive discrimination programme then they do not know what they are talking about - it would be illegal to have such a programme.
Then them turning to right wing politics as a result of missing out on promotions shows a real lack of maturity and professionalism on their part - "to a man", as you said.

[Tichtheid]

Do we have 'positive action' in the UK or not? It can't just magically not be taking place if someone is aggrieved about the results.

As long as you're making a distinction between positive action and positive discrimination (which is illegal) the best way I can probably put it is that positive action can get you into the interview, but it doesn't get you the job.

As for aggrievement, most if not all people who don't get a job they go for are disappointed. Some will externalise it and refuse to think it can be anything to do with them coming up short.

It's commonplace to ask for feedback and reasons why someone didn't get a job. If they re not satisfied they can take it further, especially if they think "positive discrimination" has taken place.

It is a very male thing to refuse to believe there was a better candidate than them.

Yup, and for the sake of my own fussy attention to detail, I should have said;

"positive action can get you into the interview, but it doesn't get you the job, that part is up to the candidate"

[Paddington Bear]

The second order of consequences being the lack of self awareness to believe that the brown female candidate might be better than the white guy from the good school who has always had good grades, always got a good job - "totally self made" man?

I don’t know how many more ways I can say that that’s not what I think and that’s not what people are complaining about, suppose it’s easier to create a strawman than look at what’s actually happening

Your words that kicked this off were

Taking some anecdotal examples from my own circle, a few people I know have fairly recently missed out on big promotions due to company ‘positive’ discrimination programmes and it has to a man turned their politics from very middle of the road to really quite radical right. There’s a lot more of this to come I think

Me riffing on your very own words but keeping the meaning is not creating a strawman

If people are telling you their companies have a positive discrimination programme then they do not know what they are talking about - it would be illegal to have such a programme.
Then them turning to right wing politics as a result of missing out on promotions shows a real lack of maturity and professionalism on their part - "to a man", as you said.

The difference between positive discrimination and action is a semantic one to satisfy a legal requirement, as should be obvious.

[robmatic]

The second order of consequences being the lack of self awareness to believe that the brown female candidate might be better than the white guy from the good school who has always had good grades, always got a good job - "totally self made" man?

Do we have 'positive action' in the UK or not? It can't just magically not be taking place if someone is aggrieved about the results.

As long as you're making a distinction between positive action and positive discrimination (which is illegal) the best way I can probably put it is that positive action can get you into the interview, but it doesn't get you the job.

As for aggrievement, most if not all people who don't get a job they go for are disappointed. Some will externalise it and refuse to think it can be anything to do with them coming up short.

It's commonplace to ask for feedback and reasons why someone didn't get a job. If they re not satisfied they can take it further, especially if they think "positive discrimination" has taken place.

To be honest, I think it is reasonable to externalise those feelings of disappointment if you are applying for jobs and not getting to the interview stage because you don't belong to the right gender or ethnic group. Same as it was reasonable for members of minorities in previous generations when it was boomer white middle class blokes benefiting from the discrimination.

[Tichtheid]

Do we have 'positive action' in the UK or not? It can't just magically not be taking place if someone is aggrieved about the results.

As long as you're making a distinction between positive action and positive discrimination (which is illegal) the best way I can probably put it is that positive action can get you into the interview, but it doesn't get you the job.

As for aggrievement, most if not all people who don't get a job they go for are disappointed. Some will externalise it and refuse to think it can be anything to do with them coming up short.

It's commonplace to ask for feedback and reasons why someone didn't get a job. If they re not satisfied they can take it further, especially if they think "positive discrimination" has taken place.

To be honest, I think it is reasonable to externalise those feelings of disappointment if you are applying for jobs and not getting to the interview stage because you don't belong to the right gender or ethnic group. Same as it was reasonable for members of minorities in previous generations when it was boomer white middle class blokes benefiting from the discrimination.

That is illegal and as I said, it could and should be challenged because that is discrimination.

[Tichtheid]

The difference between positive discrimination and action is a semantic one to satisfy a legal requirement, as should be obvious.

I don't think you're showing understanding of the difference, as it's certainly not merely semantic.

[Paddington Bear]

The difference between positive discrimination and action is a semantic one to satisfy a legal requirement, as should be obvious.

I don't think you're showing understanding of the difference, as it's certainly not merely semantic.

This is the difference between theory and application and again is a representation of age differentials (i.e. who comes into contact with this stuff in reality rather than as a political talking point). Any company with a decent HR and legal team will be able to achieve materially the same outcomes through positive action as they would through positive discrimination. So in reality any difference is semantic to jump through hoops.

[Tichtheid]

The difference between positive discrimination and action is a semantic one to satisfy a legal requirement, as should be obvious.

I don't think you're showing understanding of the difference, as it's certainly not merely semantic.

This is the difference between theory and application and again is a representation of age differentials (i.e. who comes into contact with this stuff in reality rather than as a political talking point).

Ha.

My wife is a very recently retired Organisational Design professional whose job was to deal with exactly this kind process every day. She hired and fired from junior management to CEO, dealt with Governmental input and with ministers directly.
That's reality, rather some bloke down the pub pissed off with not getting a job.

[Paddington Bear]

I don't think you're showing understanding of the difference, as it's certainly not merely semantic.

This is the difference between theory and application and again is a representation of age differentials (i.e. who comes into contact with this stuff in reality rather than as a political talking point).

Ha.

My wife is a very recently retired Organisational Development professional whose job was to deal with exactly this kind process every day. She hired and fired from junior management to CEO, dealt with Governmental input and with ministers directly.
That's reality, rather some bloke down the pub pissed off with not getting a job.

Which draws us back to an early point made around getting to a senior level and toeing the party line to a happy retirement

[Tichtheid]

This is the difference between theory and application and again is a representation of age differentials (i.e. who comes into contact with this stuff in reality rather than as a political talking point).

Ha.

My wife is a very recently retired Organisational Development professional whose job was to deal with exactly this kind process every day. She hired and fired from junior management to CEO, dealt with Governmental input and with ministers directly.
That's reality, rather some bloke down the pub pissed off with not getting a job.

Which draws us back to an early point made around getting to a senior level and toeing the party line to a happy retirement

Only if you are not professional.

The reality is that the person in that role is (should be) constantly looking at what is best for the organisation as a whole, rather than what is best for them personally.

[Paddington Bear]

Ha.

My wife is a very recently retired Organisational Development professional whose job was to deal with exactly this kind process every day. She hired and fired from junior management to CEO, dealt with Governmental input and with ministers directly.
That's reality, rather some bloke down the pub pissed off with not getting a job.

Which draws us back to an early point made around getting to a senior level and toeing the party line to a happy retirement

Only if you are not professional.

The reality is that the person in that role is (should be) constantly looking at what is best for the organisation as a whole, rather than what is best for them personally.

On that we wholeheartedly agree and as we have changed precisely zero minds we may as well call a halt there. After all, if I don’t do some work this afternoon how will I claim to have been discriminated against at my next performance meeting?

[Stranger]

It is a very male thing to refuse to believe there was a better candidate than them.
[/quote]

Yep

[Hal Jordan]

MEANWHILE IN AMERICA Trump gives Ramphosa the Zelensky treatment in the Chair Of Belittlement.

And the Secretary of State for Defence sends round an invitation to morning prayer to the entire Pentagon because that's totally allowed.

Cosplay Barbie Kristi Noem makes a total fool of herself at a Senate hearing by incorrectly defining habeas corpus, and gets a dressing down about her woeful gun safety habits.

The Cato Institute, I repeat, The Cato Institute finds that 50+ Venezuelans were sent to the El Salavador torture dungeon experience when they were legally in the US, having violated no immigration laws.

[fishfoodie]

MEANWHILE IN AMERICA Trump gives Ramphosa the Zelensky treatment in the Chair Of Belittlement.

And the Secretary of State for Defence sends round an invitation to morning prayer to the entire Pentagon because that's totally allowed.

Cosplay Barbie Kristi Noem makes a total fool of herself at a Senate hearing by incorrectly defining habeas corpus, and gets a dressing down about her woeful gun safety habits.

The Cato Institute, I repeat, The Cato Institute finds that 50+ Venezuelans were sent to the El Salavador torture dungeon experience when they were legally in the US, having violated no immigration laws.

Hopefully in a few years time some of those currently indulging in these various crimes will be, "accidentally", sent "home" to places like Iran, South Africa, & French Guiana if we can get Robins & Devils Islands reopened !

[Simian]

Fully agree with your second paragraph.

Taking some anecdotal examples from my own circle, a few people I know have fairly recently missed out on big promotions due to company ‘positive’ discrimination programmes and it has to a man turned their politics from very middle of the road to really quite radical right. There’s a lot more of this to come I think

Having worked across the public and private sector I have never come across any examples of any organization not picking the best person for the job. They might make mistakes in their selection process but it is not driven by DEI or such like. I have also seen lots of positive effort to avoid discrimination by how application forms are designed, how CVs are requested and reviewed, criteria for selection at each stage are designed, which questions are asked at interview, interviewers are trained to ensure they ask fair questions, scoring criteria and how they are applied to final selections, etc. I have never ever heard of someone being selected before a better candidate because they were needed to meet a 'quota' or such like. I have been involved in interviewing processes at all levels up to and including CEO levels and never has a positive discrimination programme meant the best candidate been refused for a less able candidate. From my professional perspective this type of tosh is just unsubstantiated nonsense usually fueled by bitter unsuccessful candidates! Many 'white men' can never accept that a woman or a person of color for example is more capable than them and gets selected for the senior job above them!

Whilst you may go for it being tosh these are people’s direct experiences and as I say if you go on the websites of plenty of large companies you will find a commitment to hiring non white males/radically changing the demographics of C-Suite/partner level, and if you can’t put two and two together as to what needs to happen for that to be achieved then there’s not a lot of helping you.

Then again, you’re probably of an age where you’ve got yours, and so it’s easier to pretend none of this is happening and be self-righteous about it, and of course toeing the party line gets you to retirement faster.

But sure, just yell at people that they’re privileged and don’t deserve anything and should just try harder, why change a winning formula? I’m sure as they get older and they don’t go where they want to in life they’ll fully subscribe to your world view and there won’t be any negative consequences.

And I’m sorry ‘I’ve never seen an organisation pick anyone but the best person for a job’! Do you even believe that? Do you expect any of us who work to believe that?

doesn't mean it's right. At my organisations the data consistently indicates that young white males are the group that hold the strongest belief they are selected against at application stage, for promotion etc. However, the data also show that, relative to their performance and qualifications, the opposite is actually true.

Losing the privileged biased treatment people like you enjoyed previously is categorically not the same as being discriminated against.

[_Os_]

MEANWHILE IN AMERICA Trump gives Ramphosa the Zelensky treatment in the Chair Of Belittlement.

I'll put this up for you guys, as you know my takes aren't coming from some dodgy position.

The ANC has a tired old trick when they face strong opposition, they stop arguing honestly and start arguing against the most absurdly extreme strawman version of their opponent's position. Because most of the media in SA sides with the ANC (even more so than UK media leans right), they tend to repeat the strawman over and over, the opponent ends up having to talk about the strawman to refute it, this helps the ANC. The most infamous example is the main opposition party (in the UK they would be middle of the road types, a combination of Lib Dems/one nation Tories/New Labour) making some headway and the ANC responding with "they want to bring back apartheid", the opposition then spent decades having to constantly say that's not true and they were the liberal opposition during that time. Imagine Nick Clegg going on TV and having no choice but to deny he is a Nazi and that happening most times he appears on a public platform, that being so normal Lib Dems have prepared answers for the Nazi smear.

The US has a number of substantive issues with SA. I will spare going through them, but it's very obviously coming from the State Department and intelligence services and was floating around under Biden too. I've read the EO on SA, there's nothing about genocide. Separate to this Afrikaner civil rights organisations have lobbied in the US (because they get nowhere in SA), they also do not say there's a genocide and constantly have to say there isn't in SA media (see the strawman tactic above).

The genocide claim is a classic ANC strawman. If they actually talked honestly about the substantive issues the US is raising it would be too damaging for them. So they've decided to keep repeating "there is no genocide".

But the ANC didn't bargain on the total madman that is Trump. If you throw an accusation at him he runs with it, Trump is now saying "they're wrong, there is a genocide". Which locks the ANC into a crazy situation where they have to convince Trump there is no genocide, which they also know is a strawman they came up with to discredit Afrikaner civil rights organisations. But behind that there's also a list of real issues the US wants action on. The ANC knows all this they are not stupid.

The hosing was richly deserved.

[Tichtheid]

The hosing was richly deserved.

Was what Trump claiming actually true?

Chanel 4 news here seemed to suggest it was pretty much lies and conflation.

[Flockwitt]

I liked the come back though:

I’m sorry I don’t have a plane to give you.

[_Os_]

The hosing was richly deserved.

Was what Trump claiming actually true?

Chanel 4 news here seemed to suggest it was pretty much lies and conflation.

Which parts? There was a lot being thrown out. The parts about genocide were not true, but as I said that's not in the EO or anything anyone has said before Trump ran with it, that was originally an ANC strawman to discredit opponents.

The actual substance is: SA siding with anti-Western regimes (who are conspicuously not voicing any support for SA now), SA opposing Israel, extensive legislated racial discrimination targeting minorities, expropriation of property without compensation, open use of hate speech which isn't being punished, white farmers suffering a disproportionate murder rate.

Any left wing media in the UK (like Channel 4) typically isn't accurate on Southern Africa.

[Tichtheid]

The hosing was richly deserved.

Was what Trump claiming actually true?

Chanel 4 news here seemed to suggest it was pretty much lies and conflation.

Which parts? There was a lot being thrown out. The parts about genocide were not true, but as I said that's not in the EO or anything anyone has said before Trump ran with it, that was originally an ANC strawman to discredit opponents.

The actual substance is: SA siding with anti-Western regimes (who are conspicuously not voicing any support for SA now), SA opposing Israel, extensive legislated racial discrimination targeting minorities, expropriation of property without compensation, open use of hate speech which isn't being punished, white farmers suffering a disproportionate murder rate.

Any left wing media in the UK (like Channel 4) typically isn't accurate on Southern Africa.

Hmmm, I usually find myself in agreement with a lot of your posts on politics. I know very little about Southern African current affairs but I'm not sure about the description of C4 news being left wing - "Not Right Wing", for sure, but Left Wing?

Not swallowing wholesale bilge from Tories and those on the Right of them without question, as per the BBC, is not the same as being Left Wing

[_Os_]

Was what Trump claiming actually true?

Chanel 4 news here seemed to suggest it was pretty much lies and conflation.

Which parts? There was a lot being thrown out. The parts about genocide were not true, but as I said that's not in the EO or anything anyone has said before Trump ran with it, that was originally an ANC strawman to discredit opponents.

The actual substance is: SA siding with anti-Western regimes (who are conspicuously not voicing any support for SA now), SA opposing Israel, extensive legislated racial discrimination targeting minorities, expropriation of property without compensation, open use of hate speech which isn't being punished, white farmers suffering a disproportionate murder rate.

Any left wing media in the UK (like Channel 4) typically isn't accurate on Southern Africa.

Hmmm, I usually find myself in agreement with a lot of your posts on politics. I know very little about Southern African current affairs but I'm not sure about the description of C4 news being left wing - "Not Right Wing", for sure, but Left Wing?

Not swallowing wholesale bilge from Tories and those on the Right of them without question, as per the BBC, is not the same as being Left Wing

I tend to like Channel 4, I would say they're centre left and don't think that's controversial really. I'm very cautious of any UK left wing source on Southern Africa, there's definitely a lot of sacred cows and an agenda. What they're never going to say is "the ANC deserved that even if it was Trump", it's going to be something closer to "poor ANC, they are the party of Mandela". All Trump is doing is pointing out the sacred cow is naked, long overdue, not helping anyone pretending otherwise.

[Hal Jordan]

I liked the come back though:

I’m sorry I don’t have a plane to give you.

Well, the plane is now officially Trump's. Can you imagine the response if this had been a Democrat? Now it's just accepted as part of normal US life.

Doesn't take long for appaling things to become just something to put up with as part of daily life.

And _Os_ , whatever the ANC may or may not have been up to, Trump didn't look to shine the light on them, he has fixed the idea in his head that millions of whites are being machine gunned. He was challenged on it by a reporter amd absolutely melted down. He is a senile piece of shit.

[dpedin]

If the tiniest challenge to centuries of baked in positive discrimination in your favour make you flee to the arms of the far right or Rapey Tate, then the problem isn't society, it's you.

Yep.

Pithy and accurate!

[_Os_]

And _Os_ , whatever the ANC may or may not have been up to, Trump didn't look to shine the light on them, he has fixed the idea in his head that millions of whites are being machine gunned. He was challenged on it by a reporter amd absolutely melted down. He is a senile piece of shit.

That was the Trump bluster, but there's a lot more going on than that. There's two possibilities about American motivations, I think both are true:

1. They actually care about SA. Maybe even Trump himself, he has a lot of South African friends. Perhaps they would rather not SA do a Zimbabwe and are concerned about a range of issues, they are not being listened to by the ANC, hence an Oval Office belittlement.What this isn't is a crazy Ukraine situation where there's extortionate minerals deals and all the rest. There's very little explicitly in the US interest that they're asking for.

2. This is a culture war issue because of what SA symbolises in the West (a successful multicultural democracy, Mandela, etc). They've done their homework and know it's a lot more complicated than that and actually isn't good ground for the left at all. They're hoping the Western left jump in with both feet, so a whole range of broader issues around DEI can be opened up with an actual real life example of where it all ends up.

[Kiwias]

If the tiniest challenge to centuries of baked in positive discrimination in your favour make you flee to the arms of the far right or Rapey Tate, then the problem isn't society, it's you.

Yep.

Pithy and accurate!

Spot on!

[Blackmac]

The second order of consequences being the lack of self awareness to believe that the brown female candidate might be better than the white guy from the good school who has always had good grades, always got a good job - "totally self made" man?

I don’t know how many more ways I can say that that’s not what I think and that’s not what people are complaining about, suppose it’s easier to create a strawman than look at what’s actually happening

Your words that kicked this off were

Taking some anecdotal examples from my own circle, a few people I know have fairly recently missed out on big promotions due to company ‘positive’ discrimination programmes and it has to a man turned their politics from very middle of the road to really quite radical right. There’s a lot more of this to come I think

Me riffing on your very own words but keeping the meaning is not creating a strawman

If people are telling you their companies have a positive discrimination programme then they do not know what they are talking about - it would be illegal to have such a programme.
Then them turning to right wing politics as a result of missing out on promotions shows a real lack of maturity and professionalism on their part - "to a man", as you said.

A number of years ago the female assistant chief Constable of Polis Alba openly wrote a letter to every female sergeant in the force encouraging to them to run for promotion and promising she would personally approve and back all their applications. This despite the fact the promotion regulations state that any officer backing an applicant or confirming promotion examples must have personal knowledge of the applicant and proof of the claims made in their application.

On that note the police don't positively discriminate they just promote very badly. I actually failed my first promotion despite being in post on an acting basis for 2 years. A senior officer told me to remember that getting promoted in the police was not an indication of being a good police officer.

[Slick]

And _Os_ , whatever the ANC may or may not have been up to, Trump didn't look to shine the light on them, he has fixed the idea in his head that millions of whites are being machine gunned. He was challenged on it by a reporter amd absolutely melted down. He is a senile piece of shit.

That was the Trump bluster, but there's a lot more going on than that. There's two possibilities about American motivations, I think both are true:

1. They actually care about SA. Maybe even Trump himself, he has a lot of South African friends. Perhaps they would rather not SA do a Zimbabwe and are concerned about a range of issues, they are not being listened to by the ANC, hence an Oval Office belittlement.What this isn't is a crazy Ukraine situation where there's extortionate minerals deals and all the rest. There's very little explicitly in the US interest that they're asking for.

2. This is a culture war issue because of what SA symbolises in the West (a successful multicultural democracy, Mandela, etc). They've done their homework and know it's a lot more complicated than that and actually isn't good ground for the left at all. They're hoping the Western left jump in with both feet, so a whole range of broader issues around DEI can be opened up with an actual real life example of where it all ends up.

You are over thinking it.

[Insane_Homer]

You'd think when it comes to nepotism and corruption Trump would've shown some respect & recognition of game.

[_Os_]

And _Os_ , whatever the ANC may or may not have been up to, Trump didn't look to shine the light on them, he has fixed the idea in his head that millions of whites are being machine gunned. He was challenged on it by a reporter amd absolutely melted down. He is a senile piece of shit.

That was the Trump bluster, but there's a lot more going on than that. There's two possibilities about American motivations, I think both are true:

1. They actually care about SA. Maybe even Trump himself, he has a lot of South African friends. Perhaps they would rather not SA do a Zimbabwe and are concerned about a range of issues, they are not being listened to by the ANC, hence an Oval Office belittlement.What this isn't is a crazy Ukraine situation where there's extortionate minerals deals and all the rest. There's very little explicitly in the US interest that they're asking for.

2. This is a culture war issue because of what SA symbolises in the West (a successful multicultural democracy, Mandela, etc). They've done their homework and know it's a lot more complicated than that and actually isn't good ground for the left at all. They're hoping the Western left jump in with both feet, so a whole range of broader issues around DEI can be opened up with an actual real life example of where it all ends up.

You are over thinking it.

You reckon they're just out of control loonies?

This has been coming for awhile though. Biden wasn't happy with SA's stance on Israel/Iran/Ukraine-Russia. There were rumblings in the first Trump presidency but it never went anywhere.

Some of the SA NGOs that have gone to Washington to plead SA's case have reported they get there thinking they're going to have to explain a lot, and are met by US officials with thick files of information who know everything already. Doesn't really fit with it's just Trump being a madman.

[Slick]

That was the Trump bluster, but there's a lot more going on than that. There's two possibilities about American motivations, I think both are true:

1. They actually care about SA. Maybe even Trump himself, he has a lot of South African friends. Perhaps they would rather not SA do a Zimbabwe and are concerned about a range of issues, they are not being listened to by the ANC, hence an Oval Office belittlement.What this isn't is a crazy Ukraine situation where there's extortionate minerals deals and all the rest. There's very little explicitly in the US interest that they're asking for.

2. This is a culture war issue because of what SA symbolises in the West (a successful multicultural democracy, Mandela, etc). They've done their homework and know it's a lot more complicated than that and actually isn't good ground for the left at all. They're hoping the Western left jump in with both feet, so a whole range of broader issues around DEI can be opened up with an actual real life example of where it all ends up.

You are over thinking it.

You reckon they're just out of control loonies?

This has been coming for awhile though. Biden wasn't happy with SA's stance on Israel/Iran/Ukraine-Russia. There were rumblings in the first Trump presidency but it never went anywhere.

Some of the SA NGOs that have gone to Washington to plead SA's case have reported they get there thinking they're going to have to explain a lot, and are met by US officials with thick files of information who know everything already. Doesn't really fit with it's just Trump being a madman.

You are going to know more about this than me of course, but I think, at the top level, they have one thing on their minds - the white farmers - and I really don't believe they know enough, or care enough, about "Africa" to take it any further than that. There are undoubtable good people further down the administration that care and have knowledge, but I imagine they are so buffeted by the surrounding madness that there is very little they can actually do.

[Hal Jordan]

The Trump administration is stuffed full of conspiracy theorists, idiots, whores (metaphorical or otherwise) and out and out white supremacists. I wouldn't credit them with any insight into SA politics beyond, "Why can't they have apartheid back, things were going great back then!"

[_Os_]

You are over thinking it.

You reckon they're just out of control loonies?

This has been coming for awhile though. Biden wasn't happy with SA's stance on Israel/Iran/Ukraine-Russia. There were rumblings in the first Trump presidency but it never went anywhere.

Some of the SA NGOs that have gone to Washington to plead SA's case have reported they get there thinking they're going to have to explain a lot, and are met by US officials with thick files of information who know everything already. Doesn't really fit with it's just Trump being a madman.

You are going to know more about this than me of course, but I think, at the top level, they have one thing on their minds - the white farmers - and I really don't believe they know enough, or care enough, about "Africa" to take it any further than that. There are undoubtable good people further down the administration that care and have knowledge, but I imagine they are so buffeted by the surrounding madness that there is very little they can actually do.

Nah, your takes are sometimes really good on this high level stuff. That's why I asked.

It looks like a dual strategy to me. Something closer to what you're saying around farmers for the MAGA masses, "people are killed" is easy to understand, he's turned the Oval Office into a TV show. That doesn't look like everything that's going on, the sanctions bill in Congress (a review of the bilateral relationship with the aim of identifying people for targeted sanctions) doesn't mention that, the EO does but it's not the main part of it. If Ramaphosa had done some reforms that meeting may have gone differently, but he is refusing.

[_Os_]

The Trump administration is stuffed full of conspiracy theorists, idiots, whores (metaphorical or otherwise) and out and out white supremacists. I wouldn't credit them with any insight into SA politics beyond, "Why can't they have apartheid back, things were going great back then!"

And I reckon that's where people fall into my point 2. Going by some MAGA social media accounts that's the bait they want people to take.

They're saying SA has apartheid 2.0/reverse apartheid and that must end, not that they want apartheid back. So you can see the tarpit someone is going to get into if they try to argue against that "so you like racial discrimination?", "how has that worked out in SA?". The people on both ends of the phone so to speak, aren't South African and don't know what they're talking about really. So it'll be quite an odd conversation that's not really about SA and more about the culture wars stuff and the US.

Analysts in Washington will have a lot of insight. Wouldn't be surprising if some of them were South Africa. The US like to put American Russians up against Russia, American Iranians against Iran, American Chinese against China. If the contest lasts long enough the other side works out the Americans are too good and they're up against their own. The Chinese joke about "our Chinese vs their Chinese".

[Slick]

You reckon they're just out of control loonies?

This has been coming for awhile though. Biden wasn't happy with SA's stance on Israel/Iran/Ukraine-Russia. There were rumblings in the first Trump presidency but it never went anywhere.

Some of the SA NGOs that have gone to Washington to plead SA's case have reported they get there thinking they're going to have to explain a lot, and are met by US officials with thick files of information who know everything already. Doesn't really fit with it's just Trump being a madman.

You are going to know more about this than me of course, but I think, at the top level, they have one thing on their minds - the white farmers - and I really don't believe they know enough, or care enough, about "Africa" to take it any further than that. There are undoubtable good people further down the administration that care and have knowledge, but I imagine they are so buffeted by the surrounding madness that there is very little they can actually do.

Nah, your takes are sometimes really good on this high level stuff. That's why I asked.

It looks like a dual strategy to me. Something closer to what you're saying around farmers for the MAGA masses, "people are killed" is easy to understand, he's turned the Oval Office into a TV show. That doesn't look like everything that's going on, the sanctions bill in Congress (a review of the bilateral relationship with the aim of identifying people for targeted sanctions) doesn't mention that, the EO does but it's not the main part of it. If Ramaphosa had done some reforms that meeting may have gone differently, but he is refusing.

Yeah, that could well be the case. I'd bet that Trump knows absolutely nothing about what is going at USAID/sanctions/partnership level

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It looks like a dual strategy to me. Something closer to what you're saying around farmers for the MAGA masses, "people are killed" is easy to understand, he's turned the Oval Office into a TV show. That doesn't look like everything that's going on, the sanctions bill in Congress (a review of the bilateral relationship with the aim of identifying people for targeted sanctions) doesn't mention that, the EO does but it's not the main part of it. If Ramaphosa had done some reforms that meeting may have gone differently, but he is refusing.

Because positive actions in others promote decency and honesty from the bloated orange channeller of corruption?

[Uncle fester]

You are going to know more about this than me of course, but I think, at the top level, they have one thing on their minds - the white farmers - and I really don't believe they know enough, or care enough, about "Africa" to take it any further than that. There are undoubtable good people further down the administration that care and have knowledge, but I imagine they are so buffeted by the surrounding madness that there is very little they can actually do.

Nah, your takes are sometimes really good on this high level stuff. That's why I asked.

It looks like a dual strategy to me. Something closer to what you're saying around farmers for the MAGA masses, "people are killed" is easy to understand, he's turned the Oval Office into a TV show. That doesn't look like everything that's going on, the sanctions bill in Congress (a review of the bilateral relationship with the aim of identifying people for targeted sanctions) doesn't mention that, the EO does but it's not the main part of it. If Ramaphosa had done some reforms that meeting may have gone differently, but he is refusing.

Yeah, that could well be the case. I'd bet that Trump knows absolutely nothing about what is going at USAID/sanctions/partnership level

There are legitimate reasons for the US to beat SA up but that's completely incidental to the current administration being bat shit insane and populated with conspiracy theorists.

Latest is that Oklahoma is trying to add 2020 election conspiracy theories to the school curriculum.

[Sandstorm]

It looks like a dual strategy to me. Something closer to what you're saying around farmers for the MAGA masses, "people are killed" is easy to understand, he's turned the Oval Office into a TV show. That doesn't look like everything that's going on, the sanctions bill in Congress (a review of the bilateral relationship with the aim of identifying people for targeted sanctions) doesn't mention that, the EO does but it's not the main part of it. If Ramaphosa had done some reforms that meeting may have gone differently, but he is refusing.

Because positive actions in others promote decency and honesty from the bloated orange channeller of corruption?

The point is: if you keep your head down (Chile, Denmark, NZ, etc) then you aren’t on the White House radar and Trump doesn’t even get told about you.

Someone in DC (besides Musk) is annoyed by the ANC and has told Donny about it.

[tabascoboy]

Greenland Signs Lucrative Minerals Deal with Europe in Blow to Trump

Greenland has allowed a Danish-French consortium to mine a rock which is key to the production of aluminum.

The permit granted to Greenland Anorthosite Mining (GAM) to extract anorthosite follows interest in the Arctic territory from U.S. President Donald Trump in acquiring the autonomous island which is part of the Kingdom of Denmark.

GAM, which is backed by French company Jean Boulle Group and real estate investment firms bodies from Denmark and Greenland, was granted a 30-year permit, Reuters reported.

https://www.newsweek.com/greenland-trum ... on-2075673

[Hugo]

Someone in DC (besides Musk) is annoyed by the ANC and has told Donny about it.

Is it potentially in part due to the ANC's stance on Palestine/Israel? The Israeli lobby are very meticulous in identifying opponents and then strategically going after them.

[Hal Jordan]

Greenland Signs Lucrative Minerals Deal with Europe in Blow to Trump

Greenland has allowed a Danish-French consortium to mine a rock which is key to the production of aluminum.

The permit granted to Greenland Anorthosite Mining (GAM) to extract anorthosite follows interest in the Arctic territory from U.S. President Donald Trump in acquiring the autonomous island which is part of the Kingdom of Denmark.

GAM, which is backed by French company Jean Boulle Group and real estate investment firms bodies from Denmark and Greenland, was granted a 30-year permit, Reuters reported.

https://www.newsweek.com/greenland-trum ... on-2075673

Insane Truth Social rant in 3...2...1...