Starmergeddon: They Came And Ate Us

[Paddington Bear]

Proscribing a group because they've embarassed your shoddy security standards is a bit tin pot.

The security set up is tin pot, breaking onto a military base is exceptionally fucking stupid to put it mildly and it’s hard to see what else the government could do in response.

Arrest and charge individuals for whichever laws they broke, but putting the entirety of PA into the same legal category as actual terrorist groups is beyond absurd. If a handful of RSPB members decide to do something exceptionally daft in its name I wouldn't expect the entire organisation to suffer legal ramifications.

It's a particularly authoritarian lash out and it's an ugly look for a party that ought to be repealing draconian protest restrictions introduced by the Tories, not looking to see if they can go one worse.

Your example falls down as there are mainstream, entirely legitimate outlets for pro Palestinian expression that far better correlate to the RSPB. If a splinter radical Bird Action group had a history of illegal protest, sporadic violence and destruction of property then followed up by breaking into Brize Norton yeah I think you’d be hard pressed to complain about the government coming down like a ton of bricks on them.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I can see why Cooper did it, not so much for PA, but for anyone else thinking of acting in such fashion in future. It's hardly ideal mind, still less so if we end up playing whac-a-mole with claims X is not related to Y when it's the same people

Doesn't negate someone still needs to explain how on earth they were able to break onto a military base to begin with

[I like neeps]

Very Conservative of Labour to be prescribing Palestine Action. Continued decaying of democratic values.

Probably don’t break into a military base and damage the aircraft then. Exceptionally fortunate they didn’t wind up getting shot and should count themselves lucky for that

You could if you wanted try to charge those who broke into Brize under terror legislation, I doubt the CPS or jury would play ball on that because they're just a bunch of idiots not terrorists.

No, like with the Southport riots and tweets we're seeing what an authoritarian Starmer really is.

[Calculon]

Destroying UK military assets for political reasons. Sound a bit terroristty to me.

[I like neeps]

Destroying UK military assets for political reasons. Sound a bit terroristty to me.

They didn't destroy them, they spray painted them. The Ministry of Defence themselves merely called it vandalism.

If they'd blown up a RAF jet then sure. You'd never ever get a terror charge on spray painting in a court.

[Tichtheid]

Destroying UK military assets for political reasons. Sound a bit terroristty to me.

They didn't destroy them, they spray painted them. The Ministry of Defence themselves merely called it vandalism.

If they'd blown up a RAF jet then sure. You'd never ever get a terror charge on spray painting in a court.

Yeah, that would be a very dangerous road to go down - it leads eventually to all protest being considered terrorism.

[mat the expat]

Destroying UK military assets for political reasons. Sound a bit terroristty to me.

They didn't destroy them, they spray painted them. The Ministry of Defence themselves merely called it vandalism.

If they'd blown up a RAF jet then sure. You'd never ever get a terror charge on spray painting in a court.

Yeah, that would be a very dangerous road to go down - it leads eventually to all protest being considered terrorism.

This is interesting - it's "Undemocratic" to have mandatory voting but it's Democratic to label protestors as Terrorists

Fark me!

[BagfordViper]

I wouldn't recommend anyone fly I'm an aircraft that's had paint sprayed into it's engine. You can't just ignore it and take off. What they did was sabotage, it will have grounded the aircraft.

[Slick]

Yup, in two minds about this. Not comfortable at all with a protest group being proscribed as terrorists, if nothing else seems an easy way out for the government

On the other hand, breaking into a military base and doing whatever, is indescribably stupid and deserves a harsh punishment imo.

On balance, would have preferred the individuals involved to be prosecuted and given a hefty sentence

[Yeeb]

I wouldn't recommend anyone fly I'm an aircraft that's had paint sprayed into it's engine. You can't just ignore it and take off. What they did was sabotage, it will have grounded the aircraft.

Yeah, the RAF can’t brush that aside or gloss over the danger that would cause.


I will get my coat..

[Tichtheid]

Yup, in two minds about this. Not comfortable at all with a protest group being proscribed as terrorists, if nothing else seems an easy way out for the government

On the other hand, breaking into a military base and doing whatever, is indescribably stupid and deserves a harsh punishment imo.

On balance, would have preferred the individuals involved to be prosecuted and given a hefty sentence

Google tells me this

In the UK, the sentence for criminal damage varies depending on the value of the damage and whether the case is tried in Magistrates' Court or Crown Court. For damage valued under £5,000, the maximum sentence in Magistrates' Court is a fine of £2,500 and/or up to 3 months' imprisonment. If the damage exceeds £5,000, the case can be tried in Crown Court, where the maximum sentence can be up to 10 years' imprisonment


Spraying paint into a plane's turbine will have cause far more than five grand's worth of damage, I would imagine.

[Tichtheid]

I wouldn't recommend anyone fly I'm an aircraft that's had paint sprayed into it's engine. You can't just ignore it and take off. What they did was sabotage, it will have grounded the aircraft.

Yeah, the RAF can’t brush that aside or gloss over the danger that would cause.


I will get my coat..

undercoat or second coat?

[Biffer]

Yup, in two minds about this. Not comfortable at all with a protest group being proscribed as terrorists, if nothing else seems an easy way out for the government

On the other hand, breaking into a military base and doing whatever, is indescribably stupid and deserves a harsh punishment imo.

On balance, would have preferred the individuals involved to be prosecuted and given a hefty sentence

Would have preferred a prosecution as well. This stinks of a desperate attempt to distract from base security being shite.

[Hugo]

Yup, in two minds about this. Not comfortable at all with a protest group being proscribed as terrorists, if nothing else seems an easy way out for the government

On the other hand, breaking into a military base and doing whatever, is indescribably stupid and deserves a harsh punishment imo.

On balance, would have preferred the individuals involved to be prosecuted and given a hefty sentence

Would have preferred a prosecution as well. This stinks of a desperate attempt to distract from base security being shite.

Thirded.

[Calculon]

Destroying UK military assets for political reasons. Sound a bit terroristty to me.

They didn't destroy them, they spray painted them. The Ministry of Defence themselves merely called it vandalism.

If they'd blown up a RAF jet then sure. You'd never ever get a terror charge on spray painting in a court.

"The group said it had used e-scooters to get across the airbase, before using repurposed fire extinguishers to spray paint and crowbars to cause further damage."


https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-mili ... za-us-war/

RAF might need to replace the engines at least. Caused something like up to 55 million pounds worth of damage and grounded the planes for who knows long,

they should have been shot as soon as they broke into the airbase

[Biffer]

they should have been shot as soon as they broke into the airbase

Security was so shite they didn't know they were there, so couldn't have shot them even if they wanted to.

[Hal Jordan]

they should have been shot as soon as they broke into the airbase

Security was so shite they didn't know they were there, so couldn't have shot them even if they wanted to.

Judge Dredd wouldn't stand for this sort of nonsense.

[Yeeb]

I wouldn't recommend anyone fly I'm an aircraft that's had paint sprayed into it's engine. You can't just ignore it and take off. What they did was sabotage, it will have grounded the aircraft.

Yeah, the RAF can’t brush that aside or gloss over the danger that would cause.


I will get my coat..

undercoat or second coat?

Sorry Matt I don’t know

[Hal Jordan]

Yeah, the RAF can’t brush that aside or gloss over the danger that would cause.


I will get my coat..

undercoat or second coat?

Sorry Matt I don’t know

I think we'd better gloss over this discussion and move on.

[Yeeb]

undercoat or second coat?

Sorry Matt I don’t know

I think we'd better gloss over this discussion and move on.

Already done the gloss pun, you nobhead

[Calculon]

they should have been shot as soon as they broke into the airbase

Security was so shite they didn't know they were there, so couldn't have shot them even if they wanted to.

I know, but hopefully next time they try a similar stunt...

[Biffer]

they should have been shot as soon as they broke into the airbase

Security was so shite they didn't know they were there, so couldn't have shot them even if they wanted to.

I know, but hopefully next time they try a similar stunt...

So you think the actions here reflect a govt looking at the security issue seriously rather than lashing out with a performative action that'll play well in the right wing press?

[Calculon]

Security was so shite they didn't know they were there, so couldn't have shot them even if they wanted to.

I know, but hopefully next time they try a similar stunt...

So you think the actions here reflect a govt looking at the security issue seriously rather than lashing out with a performative action that'll play well in the right wing press?

From what I’ve read I think they should be banned, not only for this but also for some of their other actions. Separate to that, it was obviously a major, and embarrassing, security breach.

[Hugo]

I know, but hopefully next time they try a similar stunt...

So you think the actions here reflect a govt looking at the security issue seriously rather than lashing out with a performative action that'll play well in the right wing press?

From what I’ve read I think they should be banned, not only for this but also for some of their other actions. Separate to that, it was obviously a major, and embarrassing, security breach.

It was but tbh it looks like a face saving exercise. The govt were humiliated that their security was so easily bypassed so they are now over compensating. The concerning thing is that it sets a dangerous precedent for freedom of speech and protests.

They should have just taken the offenders to court and doled out the appropriate penalty to them, instead the state is overreaching in an effort to show strength.

[Paddington Bear]

Less face saving and more a realisation that nowhere is safe from disruption IMO

[Hugo]

Less face saving and more a realisation that nowhere is safe from disruption IMO

Trust me i sympathise with the decision on the basis that you can't allow people to just run amok or give the impression that breaking into bases will be tolerated. It's not a clear cut thing by any means.

However, for me it also falls under the category of the classic scenario of the state not doing its job then exacerbating that with a cack handed response. There's a certain laziness to the whole thing with is symptomatic of the state, what I mean is it does the easy things because they are easy rather than doing the actually meaningful stuff - providing good security.

Maybe I'm prejudiced in my outlook but it seems to parallel the policing of Facebook posts whilst actual street crimes are not policed with the same zeal.

[Hal Jordan]

Sorry Matt I don’t know

I think we'd better gloss over this discussion and move on.

Already done the gloss pun, you nobhead

It needed two coats.

[Yeeb]

I think we'd better gloss over this discussion and move on.

Already done the gloss pun, you nobhead

It needed two coats.

Almost an outstanding comeback, would have been better if you’d have repeated the coats pun though as i glazed over this

[dpedin]

Just listened to Badenough making response to Starmers update to the house ... christ she is just plain awful! Starmer wiped the floor with her. It was like an angry and uninformed student who hadn't done their homework trying to have an argument with their Professor and losing badly. She threw personal insults about, used infantile names for Gov policies and accused him of 'dodging' PMQs for two weeks when he was attending G7 and NATO Conferences FFS! If she is trying to impersonate Trump then she failed very, very badly. Completely misjudged the mood of the HoC and one tits up. She isn't long for this world methinks, even the Tory MPs appear to realize she is toast!

[Hal Jordan]

Just listened to Badenough making response to Starmers update to the house ... christ she is just plain awful! Starmer wiped the floor with her. It was like an angry and uninformed student who hadn't done their homework trying to have an argument with their Professor and losing badly. She threw personal insults about, used infantile names for Gov policies and accused him of 'dodging' PMQs for two weeks when he was attending G7 and NATO Conferences FFS! If she is trying to impersonate Trump then she failed very, very badly. Completely misjudged the mood of the HoC and one tits up. She isn't long for this world methinks, even the Tory MPs appear to realize she is toast!

She is the perfect blend of arrogance, ambition and stupidity.

[SaintK]

Just listened to Badenough making response to Starmers update to the house ... christ she is just plain awful! Starmer wiped the floor with her. It was like an angry and uninformed student who hadn't done their homework trying to have an argument with their Professor and losing badly. She threw personal insults about, used infantile names for Gov policies and accused him of 'dodging' PMQs for two weeks when he was attending G7 and NATO Conferences FFS! If she is trying to impersonate Trump then she failed very, very badly. Completely misjudged the mood of the HoC and one tits up. She isn't long for this world methinks, even the Tory MPs appear to realize she is toast!

She was pathetic!
Mark Prichard must one of a lot of Tory MP's feeling the same about her when he asked Starmer his question.

As far as possible in this place, it would be better to keep partisan politics out of national security issues. And who knows, I may get the whip withdrawn for saying that. But so be it. There are things that go beyond party politics. So can I thank the prime minister for all his hard work in the national security interests of this country.

[I like neeps]

Tax rises inevitable wirh Starmer backing down on the winter fuel announcement, benefits bill, and increased defence spending. Its a shame reform is so impossible even with that majority.

[Hal Jordan]

Tax rises inevitable wirh Starmer backing down on the winter fuel announcement, benefits bill, and increased defence spending. Its a shame reform is so impossible even with that majority.

Maybe they could go after the tech bros instead of bending over backwards to accommodate them.

You know, be a Labour Party.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Very odd they've not even looked at going after the gambling firms. Easy to see why the Tories didn't when they were taking so much money from the gambling companies, but Labour don't take anything like the same funding, in theory would care about the damage gambling companies wreak, and the gambling firms all but printing money and the government is desperate to increase the tax take.

At this point there isn't even vague speculation the Gambling Commission become an actual regulator (presently it remains more a data collection exercise), never mind actually going after some of the ill gotten gains

[Calculon]

So you think the actions here reflect a govt looking at the security issue seriously rather than lashing out with a performative action that'll play well in the right wing press?

From what I’ve read I think they should be banned, not only for this but also for some of their other actions. Separate to that, it was obviously a major, and embarrassing, security breach.

It was but tbh it looks like a face saving exercise. The govt were humiliated that their security was so easily bypassed so they are now over compensating. The concerning thing is that it sets a dangerous precedent for freedom of speech and protests.

They should have just taken the offenders to court and doled out the appropriate penalty to them, instead the state is overreaching in an effort to show strength.

hmmmm

In Belgium pro-Palestinian activists smash up an armoured vehicle plant preparing vehicles for Ukraine. Now British pro-Palestinian activists reportedly planned to target airbases used to train Ukrainian pilots.

I don't for a second believe these are coincidences.

The Palestine Action (soon to be designated as a terror) group reportedly planned to target the British airbases RAF Cranwell and RAF Barkston Heath, notably used as training airfields for Ukrainian pilots converting to F-16s and Mirage 2000s. x.com/toadmeister/st…

https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1938328470108696778

[_Os_]

Worth looking at the last few weeks to see how Labour's focus on immigration is going.

May 12th, Starmer's Island of Strangers speech.
May 12th to 16th, Labour's messaging focused only on immigration in what was know as "immigration week". A white paper was released yet again changing all the immigration rules.
May 15th, leaked audio of Chris Philp conveniently comes out during "immigration week" (eye roll), admitting Brexit/leaving the Dublin regulations mean asylum seekers cannot automatically be returned to the first place they claim asylum, which accounts for half of all asylum seekers in the UK.
May 22nd, ONS releases net immigration figures showing the number went down by more than half in 2024 to net 431k. This reflects Jenrick's (perhaps unsustainable) changes designed to cut numbers for a late election (which never happened) without regard for what happens after.

That's two weeks of perfect coverage from the point of view that "focus on immigration and Labour will win". There's a mad Enoch Powell speech, harsher laws on people legally living in the UK, lower net migration numbers, Tories admitting it was them. Instead it's reported like this:
May 15th, Express headline "The shocking number of migrants still moving to Britain revealed in major update" (reality check: net migration down by half)
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... jor-update
June 1st, massive focus on more than 1000 people arriving on boats in a single day, something the government has little ability to control.

Polling shows any movement over that time was within the margin of error. But taken at face value the numbers show: Labour increase by 1% and a Reform decrease by 1% on the day of the Island of Stangers speech, then as immigration is focused on more an increase for Reform by 1% and drops for Labour and the Tories by 1%-2%.

YouGov
May 5-6 : Labour 22%, Tory 17%, Reform 29%, Lib Dem 16%, Green 10%
May 11-12: Labour 23%, Tory 18%, Reform 28%, Lib Dem 16%, Green 9%
May 18-19: Labour 22%, Tory 16%, Reform 29%, Lib Dem 17%, Green 10%
May 26-27: Labour 21%, Tory 19%, Reform 29%, Lib Dem 15%, Green 11%
June 1-2 : Labour 22%, Tory 18%, Reform 28%, Lib Dem 17%, Green 9%

Still no evidence focusing on immigration is ever going to get Labour anywhere. It's not a debate about facts, net immigration can literally halve and the Express will say "The shocking number of migrants still moving to Britain revealed" and whoever is reading the Express will presumably think "FUCKING LABOUR!!!". Same with however many small boats there are.

Paddington has accused me of making 750 word Wikipedia posts. This demands an update to this post.

This time I'll focus on Tory immigration rhetoric, how their main rival made errors around that time from a certain point of view (basically a perfect run for the Tories if you think being harsh on immigration and pumping up the rhetoric gains support), and its polling impact.

June 6th - Badenoch makes a speech on immigration outlines a number of positions and signals the Tories are moving towards leaving the ECHR. It received more media attention than the Tories are now typically getting.
June 6th - Tice (Reform's Deputy Leader) says he doesn't care if/when the UK becomes minority white because he'll be dead by then. The ultimate boomer response.
June 9th - Frog Face says at a Reform rally in Wales that someone is Welsh if "it has to be someone who has lived and is settled in Wales, paid taxes and obeyed the law, If they've done that for five or ten year period".
June 10th - David Bull (Reform's Chairman) says "immigration is the lifeblood of this country, it always has been".
June 23rd - Frog Face proposes a £250k golden visa renewable every 10 years that gives huge tax advantages to those who purchase it.

YouGov
June 1-2: Labour 22%, Tory 18%, Reform 28%, Lib Dem 17%, Green 9%
June 8-9: Labour 23%, Tory 17%, Reform 29%, Lib Dem 15%, Green 10%
June 15-16: Labour 24%, Tory 17%, Reform 27%, Lib Dem 15%, Green 10%
June 22-23: Labour 23%, Tory 17%, Reform 27%, Lib Dem 16%, Green 10%

As with Labour, the Tories went hard on immigration and got nothing out of it. Everything within the margin of error, maybe lost 1%. But Labour were so unhappy with their results from their early May position they started rowing back in late June.

June 27th - Starmer says he "deeply regrets" the Island of Strangers speech, which translated means "this polled poorly for me, we're now having to explain this to supporters, please make it go away".

The immigration debate is all about vibes, the actual facts do not matter. Frog Face could start constructing the outline of the most open immigration system the UK has ever had (which is basically what he's doing) and just talking about immigration in any capacity at all will ensure Reform polls well, regardless of what Reform is saying about immigration.

[Paddington Bear]

[_Os_]

[Paddington Bear]

Now at full u turn territory on the welfare reforms. This government is directionless and feels like one trudging to the exit, not one that is a year old with a stonking majority. Remarkable stuff

[sockwithaticket]

I just don't get how the leadership thought they would get this past the MPs so many were already pissed off about some of the stuff they'd been whipped to swallow. Just completely out of touch with their own party.

With all the polling about Reform that's reported as nauseam, a lot of them will be looking around thinking that they could well be a one term MP, so what's their legacy going to be? Doing some pointless, non-Labour shit like taking money from the disabled?