Bledisloe III: Wallabies vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sydney 31st Oct

[Carter's Choice]

You're only damned if you lose. Changes/or non-changes that precede a loss will reflect badly on a coach.

That's why some of us were so fraustrated with Hansen and Foster. They enjoyed a winning % of close to 90%, but still chopped and changed constantly between 2015 and 2019. There was no need to rotate as much as they did.

An apparent contradiction there. I'd have thought you'd be applauding the foresight of those rotations that resulted in such a win rate.

Strange post. Rotation is one thing, but despite 90% winning rate, Hansen and Foster chopped and changed so much between 2015 and 2019 that we went into last year's RWC without a settled front row, backrow, halves combination, midfield, back three and bench. The only settled part of our team was the locks.

[usemame]

Strange post. Rotation is one thing, but despite 90% winning rate, Hansen and Foster chopped and changed so much between 2015 and 2019 that we went into last year's RWC without a settled front row, backrow, halves combination, midfield, back three and bench. The only settled part of our team was the locks.

But your logic would have the winning rate dependent on the methods that were used or not used, ie rotations. Unless you are stipulating that win rate is independent of the coaching team's actions.

[Ymx]

This was the losing World Cup semi final team 1 year ago

Beauden Barrett;
Sevu Reece,
Jack Goodhue (Sonny Bill Williams 55),
Anton Lienert-Brown,
George Bridge (Jordie Barrett 50);
Richie Mo’unga,
Aaron Smith (TJ Perenara 55);

Joe Moody (Ofa Tuungafasi 63),
Codie Taylor (Dane Coles 50),
Nepo Laulala (Angus Ta’avao 53),
Brodie Retallick,
Sam Whitelock (Patrick Tuipulotu 67),
Scott Barrett (Sam Cane 40),
Ardie Savea,
Kieran Read (capt).

Notable omissions
Ryan Crotty
Ben Smith
Ioane


Interesting similar team being discussed ...

[Dan54]

You're only damned if you lose. Changes/or non-changes that precede a loss will reflect badly on a coach.

That's why some of us were so fraustrated with Hansen and Foster. They enjoyed a winning % of close to 90%, but still chopped and changed constantly between 2015 and 2019. There was no need to rotate as much as they did.

An apparent contradiction there. I'd have thought you'd be applauding the foresight of those rotations that resulted in such a win rate.

Strange post. Rotation is one thing, but despite 90% winning rate, Hansen and Foster chopped and changed so much between 2015 and 2019 that we went into last year's RWC without a settled front row, backrow, halves combination, midfield, back three and bench. The only settled part of our team was the locks.

I agree combinations are pretty important, but don't the selectors have to also take form into consideration? Do we really want a team for 2023 WC picked this year?

[mrbrownstone]

Somewhat on topic: the Blues have signed Nepo Laulala.

They'll have Ofa, Laulala, Tuinukuafe and Hodgman on the books. Just greedy.

This is in addition to stockpiling All Black loose forwards Papalii, Sotutu, Hunt, and Ioane, plus the promising Blake Gibson and Tom Robinson.

Add in Tuipolotu and poaching Sam Darry, on of the most promising young locks in the country, and there's no excuses next season.

[Carter's Choice]

Somewhat on topic: the Blues have signed Nepo Laulala.

They'll have Ofa, Laulala, Tuinukuafe and Hodgman on the books. Just greedy.

This is in addition to stockpiling All Black loose forwards Papalii, Sotutu, Hunt, and Ioane, plus the promising Blake Gibson and Tom Robinson.

Add in Tuipolotu and poaching Sam Darry, on of the most promising young locks in the country, and there's no excuses next season.

To be fair, Lauala is an Auklander. And Darry is a gun, but still probably 12-18 months off being a SR level starting lock.

[Thommo]

This is going to be a humdinger of a match. In the first match the ABs appeared to be surprised by the Wallabies physicality but they bounced back in the second match. The Wallabies failed to adjust their gameplan around the ref's interpretation of what is allowed in the ruck in the second match who basically let anyone dive onto the ball. You'd like to think they'll be smarter.

I can't see too many changes for the third match apart from Toomua who is injured. It's a huge ask but I would like to see Lolesio blooded at some point. Maybe JOC outside him. Paisami can stay and one of the Fijians is booted from the team. Petaia onto a wing.

The Wallaby forwards are fine. They just need to muscle up.

[stemoc]

Paisami was the worst player in the backs for Wobblies last week, JP to centre and thats the only major change with dhp RETURNING TO 15 AN IF NOT AVAILABLE THEN hODGE TO 15.

[Gumboot]

Somewhat on topic: the Blues have signed Nepo Laulala.

They'll have Ofa, Laulala, Tuinukuafe and Hodgman on the books. Just greedy.

This is in addition to stockpiling All Black loose forwards Papalii, Sotutu, Hunt, and Ioane, plus the promising Blake Gibson and Tom Robinson.

Add in Tuipolotu and poaching Sam Darry, on of the most promising young locks in the country, and there's no excuses next season.

To be fair, Lauala is an Auklander. And Darry is a gun, but still probably 12-18 months off being a SR level starting lock.

Yep, Darry looks the goods but he's still very green. Their other locks are pretty handy as well - Cowley-Tuioti, Pierce and Josh Goodhue. Not sure how many of them have re-signed for next year, though.

[Guy Smiley]

Fascinating.

We are screwed without Ardie.

[Ted.]

Somewhat on topic: the Blues have signed Nepo Laulala.

They'll have Ofa, Laulala, Tuinukuafe and Hodgman on the books. Just greedy.

This is in addition to stockpiling All Black loose forwards Papalii, Sotutu, Hunt, and Ioane, plus the promising Blake Gibson and Tom Robinson.

Add in Tuipolotu and poaching Sam Darry, on of the most promising young locks in the country, and there's no excuses next season.

They hijacked Beaudan Barrett too, apparently.

[Gumboot]

Fascinating.

We are screwed without Ardie.

You don't rate Sotutu at all, Guy?

[Guy Smiley]

Fascinating.

We are screwed without Ardie.

You don't rate Sotutu at all, Guy?

I do. I’d love to see him burst upon the scene like... like... like a champagne supernova. I was more intent on breaking up your little side chat with AC to be honest .

I am worried about Ardie’s absence. I think he was a clear difference between the teams in both games so far. Sotutu is raw yet and needs time to settle, I hope he can grab any opportunity and shine like Caleb Clark did. Just for one game at least... so we can lock the Bledisloe back up and relax for another year.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

I agree we will certainly miss Leg Drive Savea.

[Carter's Choice]

Alright, so with Savea and Laulala both out, what do people think our XXIII will look like? I think Foster will be keen to keep his first choice team together as much as possible, but will experiment significantly against the Pumas.

My predicted team;

15. Beaudan Barrett
14. Jordie Barrett
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Caleb Clarke
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

8. Hoskins Sotutu
7. Sam cane (c)
6. Shannon Frizell
5. Sam Whitelock
4. Patrick Tuipulotu
3. Ofa Tu'ungfasi
2. Dane Coles
1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (I can't see Moody being back after being knocked out a fortnight ago)

16. Codie Taylor
17. Alex Hodgman
18. Tyrell Lomax
19. Scott Barrett
20. Dalton Papalii
21. TJ Perenara
22. Ngani Laumape
23. Damien McKenzie

[Dan54]

Reckon that would be almost bang on AC, though maybe PUJ ahead of Lumpy in reserves, don't know how up to speed he is with no rugby for a long time!

[wet-socks]

Alright, so with Savea and Laulala both out, what do people think our XXIII will look like? I think Foster will be keen to keep his first choice team together as much as possible, but will experiment significantly against the Pumas.

My predicted team;

15. Beaudan Barrett
14. Jordie Barrett
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Caleb Clarke
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

8. Hoskins Sotutu
7. Sam cane (c)
6. Shannon Frizell
5. Sam Whitelock
4. Patrick Tuipulotu
3. Ofa Tu'ungfasi
2. Dane Coles
1. Karl Tu'inukuafe (I can't see Moody being back after being knocked out a fortnight ago)

16. Codie Taylor
17. Alex Hodgman
18. Tyrell Lomax
19. Scott Barrett
20. Dalton Papalii
21. TJ Perenara
22. Ngani Laumape
23. Damien McKenzie

Mo'unga has played the entire 2020 season with Goodhue outside him at 12. They're not going to change that now.

[Carter's Choice]

Mo'unga has played the entire 2020 season with Goodhue outside him at 12. They're not going to change that now.

Yeah that was just an input error. Foster will run with the same midfield as the last test.

[Monkey Magic]

Would be interesting to see how laumape goes off the bench but they may want to ease him in either against Argentina or the 4th test once the bled is secure (crossing fingers)

[stemoc]

Lumpy will probably not just bump of paisami but run him over and score... there is the Small difference between him and Caleb.. this is why i love Lumpy, possibly the only league convert who actually comes with brains and broad and not just the latter..

[wet-socks]

Would be interesting to see how laumape goes off the bench but they may want to ease him in either against Argentina or the 4th test once the bled is secure (crossing fingers)

Agree, what's up with the disregard for my boy Reiko?

I'd be very surprised if Ioane is dropped. He's the most dangerous midfielder in NZ currently. Far too valuable to be left out of the 23.

[stemoc]

Would be interesting to see how laumape goes off the bench but they may want to ease him in either against Argentina or the 4th test once the bled is secure (crossing fingers)

Agree, what's up with the disrespect for my boy Reiko?

I'd be very surprised if Ioane is dropped. He's the most dangerous midfielder in NZ currently. He's too good to be left out of the 23 altogether.

Lumpy can get fucked.

he is one of those centres you wish would pass the ball instead of trying to score.. i think the issue was that he is doing a Folau, i.e trying to become a top try scorer for the AB's, 30 tests 24 tries is pretty good considering at one point he had a try a game stat and then some until he was dropped by NZ for being a cunt...savea and rokocoko are the only 2 that come close to his stat thus why he feels he needs to score more tries which is a problem if you play centre for the AB's, its fine if you are a winger.. that said, if reiko is named, he should play off the bench so that he can be a wing/centre cover instead of starting at 13 where his defence is probably the worst of the 5 centres in the team including the injured ennor

[wet-socks]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

[stemoc]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

PUJ isn't a long term option at 12, Jordie might be though..he may be doing an Umaga..and i mean Tana..

[wet-socks]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

PUJ isn't a long term option at 12, Jordie might be though..he may be doing an Umaga..and i mean Tana..

PUJ has actually played as much top-level rugby at 12 as he has at 13.

And he moved to 12 at the Hurricanes after Laumape got injured halfway through the season.

[Carter's Choice]

Lumpy will probably not just bump of paisami but run him over and score... there is the Small difference between him and Caleb.. this is why i love Lumpy, possibly the only league convert who actually comes with brains and broad and not just the latter..

Strange that you refer to Laumape as a League convert when he played Rugby as a junior. He was a schoolboy star and played for the NZ schools tean. He only switched to league because he was offered a contract after school and he had a young family. He's a rugby player who played league for a few short years.

[stemoc]

Lumpy will probably not just bump of paisami but run him over and score... there is the Small difference between him and Caleb.. this is why i love Lumpy, possibly the only league convert who actually comes with brains and broad and not just the latter..

Strange that you refer to Laumape as a League convert when he played Rugby as a junior. He was a schoolboy star and played for the NZ schools tean. He only switched to league because he was offered a contract after school and he had a young family. He's a rugby player who played league for a few short years.

junior grade rearely counts, nearly EVERY league convert has played union at junior grade including the incoming walalby winger, current wallaby winger..on the other hand, someone like semi radradra who played union all his life and then played league for a few years is also considered a league convert.. thats how things work.. laumape has 30 games for the Warriors, he is very much a league convert.

[Carter's Choice]

Lumpy will probably not just bump of paisami but run him over and score... there is the Small difference between him and Caleb.. this is why i love Lumpy, possibly the only league convert who actually comes with brains and broad and not just the latter..

Strange that you refer to Laumape as a League convert when he played Rugby as a junior. He was a schoolboy star and played for the NZ schools tean. He only switched to league because he was offered a contract after school and he had a young family. He's a rugby player who played league for a few short years.

junior grade rearely counts, nearly EVERY league convert has played union at junior grade including the incoming walalby winger, current wallaby winger..on the other hand, someone like semi radradra who played union all his life and then played league for a few years is also considered a league convert.. thats how things work.. laumape has 30 games for the Warriors, he is very much a league convert.

So if Ardie Savea went and played in the NRL for two years and then came back to NZ Rugby for the 2023 RWC would you also consider him to be a League convert?

[stemoc]

Savea has a defined "international career" in rugby union before going to league, he will NOT be considered a league convert.. you do know how these things work right? he will be known as a dual-code convert, no focus on which codes and if he played for the NZ loig team in that 2 years, a dual-code international (like SBW).. what's rare is a dual code double international like semi (loig for australia and fiji and union for fiji)

[Monkey Magic]

The good thing about laumape or Ioane on the bench is that they actually bring impact when they come on.

The all blacks went through a period where if we were within 10 with 15min to go you'd back them, a big part of that was that guys coming on made an impact that the opposition couldn't match.

Having 'good' players who don't make immediate impact is all well and good, but it means you need a faster start and a different tempo

[Trapper]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

Too young for AB midfielders imo. I like midfield players who have been around the block a few times, hardened up, seasoned and matured Into the role. Lumpy is just reaching his peak now, I’d play him before those two kids.

They would be excellent off the bench though.

[Ymx]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

Just a hunch .., but tell me wet-socks, how did you rate SBW? Which was your favourite poster of him?

[Grandpa]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

Too young for AB midfielders imo. I like midfield players who have been around the block a few times, hardened up, seasoned and matured Into the role. Lumpy is just reaching his peak now, I’d play him before those two kids.

They would be excellent off the bench though.

Laumape is just too small for me. Against the British Lions in 2017 his limitations came to the fore... and why he was probably never really considered again. Became a squad player the rest of that year. For me, too many better options available. Jordie and Laumape are both flat track bullies...

[FujiKiwi]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

Just a hunch .., but tell me wet-socks, how did you rate SBW? Which was your favourite poster of him?

Chill, YMX. Don't be such a douche.

[Trapper]

Ioane and PUJ have the highest ceilings of all the current All Black midfielders. They are only 22 and 23 respectively.

Laumape is yesterday's man. He's 27 and had his time in the sun. He's merely a place-holder until Umaga Jensen matures.

Too young for AB midfielders imo. I like midfield players who have been around the block a few times, hardened up, seasoned and matured Into the role. Lumpy is just reaching his peak now, I’d play him before those two kids.

They would be excellent off the bench though.

Laumape is just too small for me. Against the British Lions in 2017 his limitations came to the fore... and why he was probably never really considered again. Became a squad player the rest of that year. For me, too many better options available. Jordie and Laumape are both flat track bullies...

Must admit I couldn’t remember much about his appearances against the Lions so had a look at highlight just now. 3rd test he is pretty prominent, scoring a try and a hand in another by taking on two tacklers and getting an offload away to ALB. For the Hurricanes scores a try by bowling over a would be tackler. However, that was 3 years ago and he’s matured since then and that is what I am talking about. I’d like to see him given a shot, especially after the way he played this year, he was the best 12 in NZ. That game he played against the Blues where he made B Barrett look slow and treated him like a doormat on his way to another try, I haven’t seen a 12 be that dominant for many, many a year.

[Ymx]

Indeed, lumpy was playing very well. As for too small he is 100kg, and is one of those players who plays like he has an extra 10kg, especially when it comes to breaking lines.

[el camino]

I’m a big Laumape fan (took me the first season with the Canes before I got board) so probably not gonna convince anyone but he was really good against the Lions - totally chucked in the deep end too.
I have always felt he hasn’t been given a real chance at test level despite scoring more tries at soup than any other midfielder. His outsides Vince Aso, Matt Procter and Ben Lam weren’t missing out either.
I’ve said this before but he’s never been given more than two games in a row with the All Blacks.
The try he scored against France off a MacKenzie breakout was ridiculous.

[Gumboot]

I’m a big Laumape fan (took me the first season with the Canes before I got board) so probably not gonna convince anyone but he was really good against the Lions - totally chucked in the deep end too.
I have always felt he hasn’t been given a real chance at test level despite scoring more tries at soup than any other midfielder. His outsides Vince Aso, Matt Procter and Ben Lam weren’t missing out either.
I’ve said this before but he’s never been given more than two games in a row with the All Blacks.
The try he scored against France off a MacKenzie breakout was ridiculous.

Then along came Jack.

Goodhue's rapid rise was largely due to the selectors' preference for his ability to cover both 12 and 13 and the view that Laumape was too one-dimensional in comparison. Goodhue may not be a cannonball, but I really enjoyed his work bending the line in Auckland.

[Turbster]

I'm pretty sure, like most, I saw Lumpy as a 'fill in' if Crotty, ALB, Goodhue went down injured. Then came that ANGRY game, when he showed quite a bit more. Do I think he is one-dimensional? Yes. But if he can be taught to channel that aggression, he could be a handy 'tool' to have in the arsenal. I think he could be an effective starter if you could fire him up and set him out there like a 'rabid dog' at the opposition as a tactical thing. "Go crazy for half an hour Lumpy, and just see how much damage you can do." Thoughts?

[CrazyIslander]

No Ardie is probably worth 10 points to the Wallabies.