EV vs Hybrid vs Petrol

[Canes4Eva]

Hi all

Am seriously thinking of getting a Nissan Leaf.
I need to commute up to 100km round trip daily for work mostly open road 2/3 days per week
Can also choose to drive 50 km round trip & take a free shuttle bus the rest of the way but they do have free charging stations at work)

Bit concerned about a couple of things;
- Battery degradation
- Performance on the open road
- Environmental costs of battery production

Any pearls of wisdom out there/prcautionary tales? Would be greatly appreciated

many thx in advance

[Guy Smiley]

My sister and BiL live in West Melton and commute into the Christchurch CBD daily, so theirs is a fairly similar scenario to yours...

They bought a second hand Leaf. They’ve had to replace the charging unit which was quite pricey as I remember but that’s been it, reliability wise.

Performance is fine, it’s a busy corridor and they cruise along in the traffic flow no worries. She picked me up at the airport and I can report there will be no issues keeping up with traffic off the lights

Battery degradation is something by you can check at purchase if you’re buying 2nd hand. It’s a factor, of course... but hardly a major issue until the car is well into its life. As for the environmental concerns you mention regarding production... really? You’re thinking about buying a car. Do you worry about the environmental concerns related to all aspects of vehicle production when you do that or just EV’s?

[Raggs]

Battery degradation doesn't seem to be an issue that I've seen.

We've got a Renault Zoe, so pay monthly for the batteries, if they fall below a certain standard, they're replaced for free.

Think 100km is definitely doable for many of the newer models, and if there's free charging stations at work, absolutely no worries whatsoever.

Zoes tend to be much cheaper to buy, because of the fact you then lease the batteries, not sure it would be suited to your circumstances given the very high mileage.

[Sandstorm]

The oldest Nissan Leafs are almost 10 years old and have lost around 8% of range through battery degradation. So nothing to worry about, apart from looking like an old fart in the most boring EV around.

[Hal Jordan]

The very first Leafs had batteries that weren't quite as good as the ones that came even a year after, so steer clear of them unless it's a bumbling about town car you're looking for.

Be aware that Leafs also charge off Chademo plugs and the standard rapid chargers are going to be CCS, and the ones at work may be type 2 (CCS less the extra plug that sticks on the juice at high speed; all CCS compatible cars are type 2 as standard), so the Leaf may not be able to draw a charge simply because the plug doesn't fit. However, a lot of work type chargers are "untethered" meaning that you stick your own cable into it rather than it having a cable attached, so if that's the case no problem.

If it's a car more for you than hauling loads about then a BMW i3 would also fit your needs.

As for the environmental issues over the battery, no car is "good" for the environment, they all consume resources one way or another. However, every reputable study has concluded that EVs are better for both the local environment and for lifecycle emissions than ICE. And cobalt? Yes, it's an issue, but it's also used in refining petrol and a shed load of other stuff and like many things, until something "green" became associated with it, no one thought of the children.

[Canes4Eva]

My sister and BiL live in West Melton and commute into the Christchurch CBD daily, so theirs is a fairly similar scenario to yours...

They bought a second hand Leaf. They’ve had to replace the charging unit which was quite pricey as I remember but that’s been it, reliability wise.

Performance is fine, it’s a busy corridor and they cruise along in the traffic flow no worries. She picked me up at the airport and I can report there will be no issues keeping up with traffic off the lights

Battery degradation is something by you can check at purchase if you’re buying 2nd hand. It’s a factor, of course... but hardly a major issue until the car is well into its life. As for the environmental concerns you mention regarding production... really? You’re thinking about buying a car. Do you worry about the environmental concerns related to all aspects of vehicle production when you do that or just EV’s?

Thanks heaps
I’m driving out of ChCh to Rakaia so a bit more open road than yr sister and BIL.

Just asking about the battery as the whole appeal of these things is that they are better for the environment (as well as being cheaper to run)

[Canes4Eva]

The very first Leafs had batteries that weren't quite as good as the ones that came even a year after, so steer clear of them unless it's a bumbling about town car you're looking for.

Be aware that Leafs also charge off Chademo plugs and the standard rapid chargers are going to be CCS, and the ones at work may be type 2 (CCS less the extra plug that sticks on the juice at high speed; all CCS compatible cars are type 2 as standard), so the Leaf may not be able to draw a charge simply because the plug doesn't fit. However, a lot of work type chargers are "untethered" meaning that you stick your own cable into it rather than it having a cable attached, so if that's the case no problem.

If it's a car more for you than hauling loads about then a BMW i3 would also fit your needs.

As for the environmental issues over the battery, no car is "good" for the environment, they all consume resources one way or another. However, every reputable study has concluded that EVs are better for both the local environment and for lifecycle emissions than ICE. And cobalt? Yes, it's an issue, but it's also used in refining petrol and a shed load of other stuff and like many things, until something "green" became associated with it, no one thought of the children.

That’s awesome thanks heaps!

[Canes4Eva]

Battery degradation doesn't seem to be an issue that I've seen.

We've got a Renault Zoe, so pay monthly for the batteries, if they fall below a certain standard, they're replaced for free.

Think 100km is definitely doable for many of the newer models, and if there's free charging stations at work, absolutely no worries whatsoever.

Zoes tend to be much cheaper to buy, because of the fact you then lease the batteries, not sure it would be suited to your circumstances given the very high mileage.

Thanks!

[Canes4Eva]

The oldest Nissan Leafs are almost 10 years old and have lost around 8% of range through battery degradation. So nothing to worry about, apart from looking like an old fart in the most boring EV around.

Great thanks, quite comfortable looking like a boring old fart lol...

[Canes4Eva]

I’ve also read that the EV batteries are sensitive to temperature extremes, eg temperatures above 30 deg C or below freezing, neither of which sound very extreme to me...

[Guy Smiley]

All batteries are subject to performance drops at extreme temperatures.

[Raggs]

I’ve also read that the EV batteries are sensitive to temperature extremes, eg temperatures above 30 deg C or below freezing, neither of which sound very extreme to me...

Definitely lower range during winter, much lower. We've got the smallest range zoe, and in Summer we're told around 70km (think it's km, might be miles), in winter around 50km, on a full charge. In truth that seems to be an underestimate, since there's been a few times we've taken her on longer drives and covered more distance than is knocked off the range left reading.

[Monkey Magic]

Have a leaf and works perfectly for daily commute which is only 40k round trip on motorway and residential area.

There is a great nz based leaf owners facebook group which will have a heap of advice. Also this site has lot of good info but not sure how often its updated https://samholford.github.io/leafguide/

100k trip should be fine with anything except the earliest leafs. Biggest thing to check is to get a SOH on the battery done through leafspy. If it is under 80% you could run into trouble in a few years time. Also use it to check how often it has been rapid charged as too much of that can degrade the battery.

If you're charging at home charge type shouldn't be an issue and it should be included if going to a dealer. It literally just plugs into the wall like you would your phone.

In terms of the environmental/ethical impact of the battery production, basically dont believe the hype. Although the various stories have meant companies are making sure they are able to trace to ethically sourced suppliers.

Best things on ownership - no more having to stop for gas, very few moving parts so fewer things to go wrong, massive savings - I could drive mine into a lake on 3 years and bc of the savings it will have not cost me anything

[Mr Bungle]

I’d be more worried about that size of vehicle on busy open roads. What’s their safety rating like?

[Raggs]

5 star in europe.

Electric cars weigh a ton (well, 1.5 tons I think). You do need to make sure you buy quality tyres that can take the weight. No need for specialist etc, just good tyres.

[CM11]

Any decent big, affordable EVs? We need a 7 seater and anytime I look the only options are top end. There's the Prius+ as a hybrid but as far as I remember the extra seats are small and take up all the boot space?

[Yeeb]

I looked at a Leaf but the drivers seat doesn’t go back far enough for me so didn’t even take it for a spin. The other hybrids or Ev’s I’ve tried recently are:

Peogeot 2008 EV - horrible driving position, bumpy - so nah
Hyundai Kona EV - lovely , fast, overly loud electronic whine though to warn pedestrians so may get on your nerves. Quite pricey too
Kia niro EV - same as above but slightly nicer looks but one year lead time
E corsa - nice to drive, but quite low so had to rule out as wont get into my drive. Not spacious inside as well, unsurprisingly. Lovely orange colour though.
Bmw active tourer - plug in hybrid - nice all rounder, pricey though. Quite fast when you boot it and best infotainment system.
Ford kuga hybrid - best driving position , second best infotainment system, not as fast as bmw though. Prob my fave overall out of these

[Yeeb]

Any decent big, affordable EVs? We need a 7 seater and anytime I look the only options are top end. There's the Prius+ as a hybrid but as far as I remember the extra seats are small and take up all the boot space?

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’
Am in same position as you, if we want a 7 seater then will have to get a petrol, and would probably be second hand to save cash. Nissan do an EV truck thing but looks like a van.

[CM11]

Any decent big, affordable EVs? We need a 7 seater and anytime I look the only options are top end. There's the Prius+ as a hybrid but as far as I remember the extra seats are small and take up all the boot space?

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

[Guy Smiley]

I’d be more worried about that size of vehicle on busy open roads. What’s their safety rating like?

The Leaf is a usual size 5 door hatch. They’re not a tiny car... I don’t get the size reference here being a worry. One thing I noticed when I moved back from Aus was the higher proportion of compact cars on the roads in NZ. I found it refreshing, there’s no need for everyone to be banging around in large saloons when most journeys are one or two occupant relatively short haul.

Don’t get me started on the 4wd and SUV scene.

[Mr Bungle]

5 star in europe.

Electric cars weigh a ton (well, 1.5 tons I think). You do need to make sure you buy quality tyres that can take the weight. No need for specialist etc, just good tyres.

Maybe I’m thinking of the very early, tiny models? They looked like shopping trolleys...

[redderneck]

Any decent big, affordable EVs? We need a 7 seater and anytime I look the only options are top end. There's the Prius+ as a hybrid but as far as I remember the extra seats are small and take up all the boot space?

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

Pal bought the XC90 Mild hybrid recently. Stunning machine. He would have gone full EV but street parking rules it out. I will 100% be going somewhat electric next time out. Given my driving patterns, it'd be hybrid if I was pulling trigger today, but who knows. In three years time range anxiety might have been lessened even more. I'd like to make a go of full EV. Hybrid strikes me as neither fish nor fowl and unless you are an urban commuter with little need for 50k + leccie-only range, makes little sense financially.

It is a STUNNING machine though!

Wife's cousin bought a third-hand Leaf a few weeks back. I'll be sure to report on how she gets on re. battery degradation and mileage as she toddles off into her Siberian winter months.

[Yeeb]

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

Pal bought the XC90 Mild hybrid recently. Stunning machine. He would have gone full EV but street parking rules it out. I will 100% be going somewhat electric next time out. Given my driving patterns, it'd be hybrid if I was pulling trigger today, but who knows. In three years time range anxiety might have been lessened even more. I'd like to make a go of full EV. Hybrid strikes me as neither fish nor fowl and unless you are an urban commuter with little need for 50k + leccie-only range, makes little sense financially.

It is a STUNNING machine though!

It’s also a big whale in size and Wallet pain

[Sandstorm]

The Leaf is a usual size 5 door hatch. They’re not a tiny car... I don’t get the size reference here being a worry.

Several Bordies here have too many kids.

[redderneck]

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

Pal bought the XC90 Mild hybrid recently. Stunning machine. He would have gone full EV but street parking rules it out. I will 100% be going somewhat electric next time out. Given my driving patterns, it'd be hybrid if I was pulling trigger today, but who knows. In three years time range anxiety might have been lessened even more. I'd like to make a go of full EV. Hybrid strikes me as neither fish nor fowl and unless you are an urban commuter with little need for 50k + leccie-only range, makes little sense financially.

It is a STUNNING machine though!

It’s also a big whale in size and Wallet pain

Aye. But some of us need a whale. Active kids, hyperactive dogs, accoutrements. I'm a little bit in love with the new V60. I won't need something as big as the V90, which must be a hoor to park in any city.

[Sandstorm]

Am in same position as you, if we want a 7 seater then will have to get a petrol, and would probably be second hand to save cash.

This is good advice. If you need more than 5 seats, wait 12 months before buying an EV. There are approx 40 different new EVs for sale today. That number will be 200 in 12 months time and every type of vehicle and price point (over £20k anyway) will be covered.

[redderneck]

The Leaf is a usual size 5 door hatch. They’re not a tiny car... I don’t get the size reference here being a worry.

Several Bordies here have too many kids.

Tempus fugit, fuggit.

My phone threw up a snap of 'this day five years ago' which featured my young lad is child mode at 10 yrs old. Today he's taller and broader than I am. So is hi s shit. And his pals and their shit. Add in a 36kg lab retriever, the Mrs, the MIL and my eldest who has snuck back in under our roof post-Uni for a bit. A tuned MX5 ain't gonna cut it.

Some day Lord. Some day...

[Yeeb]

The Leaf is a usual size 5 door hatch. They’re not a tiny car... I don’t get the size reference here being a worry.

Several Bordies here have too many kids.

There was never any doubt my jizz was potent, you can’t get that kind of pressure from a broken tap

[CM11]

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

Pal bought the XC90 Mild hybrid recently. Stunning machine. He would have gone full EV but street parking rules it out. I will 100% be going somewhat electric next time out. Given my driving patterns, it'd be hybrid if I was pulling trigger today, but who knows. In three years time range anxiety might have been lessened even more. I'd like to make a go of full EV. Hybrid strikes me as neither fish nor fowl and unless you are an urban commuter with little need for 50k + leccie-only range, makes little sense financially.

It is a STUNNING machine though!

Wife's cousin bought a third-hand Leaf a few weeks back. I'll be sure to report on how she gets on re. battery degradation and mileage as she toddles off into her Siberian winter months.

I've heard is excellent alright.

[redderneck]

That's what I thought. They'd be the ones I found, think BMW has one too.

Pal bought the XC90 Mild hybrid recently. Stunning machine. He would have gone full EV but street parking rules it out. I will 100% be going somewhat electric next time out. Given my driving patterns, it'd be hybrid if I was pulling trigger today, but who knows. In three years time range anxiety might have been lessened even more. I'd like to make a go of full EV. Hybrid strikes me as neither fish nor fowl and unless you are an urban commuter with little need for 50k + leccie-only range, makes little sense financially.

It is a STUNNING machine though!

Wife's cousin bought a third-hand Leaf a few weeks back. I'll be sure to report on how she gets on re. battery degradation and mileage as she toddles off into her Siberian winter months.

I've heard is excellent alright.

Apparently there's two versions, laying down different power. He went larger and he just gets the giggles when you ask him if he's happy with it.

I would absolutely be holding off for 2nd hand in the big bus market.

[CM11]

I'd be wary of second hand EV but that's probably just new technology fear and the risk could well be lower.

[Guy Smiley]

The Leaf is a usual size 5 door hatch. They’re not a tiny car... I don’t get the size reference here being a worry.

Several Bordies here have too many kids.

Fascinating... but completely irrelevant to the conversation I was having.

[redderneck]

I'd be wary of second hand EV but that's probably just new technology fear and the risk could well be lower.

I hear you, and that's the reason I didn't pull the trigger on hybrid even, when buying a year ago. And two years prior when buying for the Mrs. But expect to be far more comfortable doing so in a three years time. I don't mind being an early adopter if it's a gadget. Cars are not gadgets. Nearly went with a Citroen D5Hybrid, which would have been a right case of being the numbnuts who bought BetaMax...

I'd go out tomorrow if I had to and happily enough dip into the hybrid market if I was looking for a one/two year old smaller machine. But I need something larger, which in my budget equated to looking at a 3-5 year old machine and at the older end of that range, I absolutely did baulk at possible battery longevity issues. I'm hopeful tech will move on on over the next 3 years and make the job simpler. Merc e350 estate. Hmmmmmm. Might also let the used car markets settle too.

[TNT]

Been driving a Hyundai Ioniq electric for a year now, one of the last 28kW/h models befor it got upgraded in range and price. Not the biggest range around (180 to 230km for the blizzard/spring extremes), but that's more than enough for my commute and the weekend trips to various GAA grounds at the weekend with the kids. Most current models have more range than that though if that's what you need, the Hyundai Kona is around 400-450km iirc. Battery degradation is a very long-term issue, and if you're going with a new car, just check what the warranty is. Mine came with 8 years warranty on the battery, so if the drop is really sharp, it'll get replaced. If not, well, after 8 years, I'll have saved a lot of money in the first place, so I'll see what the story is by then regarding replacing it or (hopefully not) changing the car, as tech is likely to move fast in that area. Financially, I used to spend ~€200 a month in petrol and €514 a year in road tax. I'm down to less than €20 a month in electricity and €120 a year in road tax. That credit is paying itself fast.

The nice thing about the 28kW/h battery on the Ioniq is that it charges fast. Couple hours at home with the 32A charger are generally enough to to it up to full, and on the very few occasions I needed the superchargers in town/motorway, I need 20 minutes to get to 80% charge, 30 minutes to 93-95%. The new Ioniq has a bigger battery but the charge is slower, both because there's more capacity to fill, but also because due to the extended duration, it uses a slower charging rate to avoid overheating.

About charging btw, do you know where you're going to charge it? A home charger is ideal, with enough juice so that it can recharge your car quick enough, so make sure you go with a 32A charger if your installation allows it. Work charger is great, as you plug in in the morning if your battery is low, and the car's topped up when you check out. Just like overnight charging, the time it takes is generally irrelevant. But in my case, I know I can't reliably count on it as there's more and more contention for the few spots, and they're hogged all-day by the billion hybrids with tiny batteries that are fully charged at 9:30 yet still plugged in until 17:30, so having the charger at home makes everything far more comfortable. If you can charge outside for free (work, shopping centre, etc), great, if not, you just plug overnight when needed. As a rule, you want to avoid superchargers as they're pretty aggressive on the battery, so using them as your main way to top up is going to dramatically increase the likelihood of battery degradation. Save them for emergencies or long commutes.

Regarding performance, I'm not the best person to ask I guess, as I tend to stick to speed limits. The acceleration is however way above any of the other family cars I've been driving before (Clio, Xsara, Xsara Picasso), overtaking is far far more comfortable, and the lack of transmission is incredibly comfortable.

Environmental cost is a bit of a loaded question. Yes, battery production is costly. Yes, electricity has to be generated in the first place, and some part of it from fossil sources too. However, even were 100% of your electricity generated by burning petrol, you'd still get more mileage with the EV than from the equivalent amount of petrol in a combustion engine car. Electric engines are very efficient, and power stations do a better job at converting petrol into energy than your personal car. With renewables added into the mix (including home solar panels with a wallbox if you want to get fancy), that's a lot less petrol being used overall. And the power grid has the advantage of already being able to distribute power across the country, removing the need for a local distribution chain (that's not true for hydrogen-powered EVs, which the fuel distribution industry obviously loves, but these have other perks). Then there are less parts that will need replacement over time due to a cleaner oil-less engine, far less vibrations, and that you'll hardly ever touch the brakes thanks to regeneration settings. That's a lot of carbon potentially taken away, more in the end than the emission cost of manufacturing the battery. Still, it's not a green process, and with the rising demand, there's an incentive in resource-rich poor countries to work the shit out of local workers, there's no going around that one. If that's a showstopper for you, fair enough. Unfortunately, apart from walking/cycling, it's difficult to be fully green and ethical. It's more of a case of less worse as far as I'm concerned.

To finish, I'd say that with your commute pattern, the Leaf seems a no-brainer. It's a nice car, I almost bought it, but went with the Ioniq in the end as the Hyundai dealer got me a great finance deal. Amongst other things, the boot of the Leaf is massive. The main "downside" of the Leaf as far as I'm concerned is that its supercharger connexion uses the ChaDeMo standard, when the EU has settled on CCS. That means superchargers in the EU are pretty much guaranteed to have CCS, whereas ChaDeMo and Tesla will depend on the local installation. But with the Leaf being so popular, I can't really see Superchargers dropping ChaDeMo, so it shouldn't be an issue for a good while. And for normal charging, there's no issue, all cars use the same Type-2 cable.

[CM11]

I'd be wary of second hand EV but that's probably just new technology fear and the risk could well be lower.

I hear you, and that's the reason I didn't pull the trigger on hybrid even, when buying a year ago. And two years prior when buying for the Mrs. But expect to be far more comfortable doing so in a three years time. I don't mind being an early adopter if it's a gadget. Cars are not gadgets. Nearly went with a Citroen D5Hybrid, which would have been a right case of being the numbnuts who bought BetaMax...

I'd go out tomorrow if I had to and happily enough dip into the hybrid market if I was looking for a one/two year old smaller machine. But I need something larger, which in my budget equated to looking at a 3-5 year old machine and at the older end of that range, I absolutely did baulk at possible battery longevity issues. I'm hopeful tech will move on on over the next 3 years and make the job simpler. Merc e350 estate. Hmmmmmm. Might also let the used car markets settle too.

[Raggs]

I don't think EVs can be considered new tech anymore. They're established. OK, maybe picking up one of the very early models may be risky (we've got one of the early Zoe's with the smallest battery), but I think that's risky compared to a later model, rather than risky in terms of it exploding randomly :D.

When we were checking a few places to pick ours up, we were told that the ultra efficient tiny diesel cars were probably slightly more economical, but not by a great deal. And of course, as road taxes etc change (I believe in the UK at least they now pay more), it gets less clear.

[Koalabyte]

I like the idea of an EV, but it would have to be either a Merc EQC, Audi Q8 hybrid or Porsche Cayenne Hybrid and they are all expensive. I am looking at a Tesla X, but Australia lacks charging stations. Maybe a Jaguar i-Pace. I don't like dinky cars Leaf etc because I have 3 kids one of whom is 2"3'.

Actually shocked how expensive diesel is. This luxury car tax is bollocks, even a Toyota land cruiser is going to set you back +$100,000. A G Wagon $300,000, in Europe it costs $140,000... seriously WTF?!

Australian Communism, where the only fuckers who can afford nice cars are Lebanese, Politicians and Chinese.

[Sandstorm]

I like the idea of an EV, but it would have to be either a Merc EQC, Audi Q8 hybrid or Porsche Cayenne Hybrid and they are all expensive. I am looking at a Tesla X, but Australia lacks charging stations. Maybe a Jaguar i-Pace. I don't like dinky cars Leaf etc because I have 3 kids one of whom is 2"3'.

Actually shocked how expensive diesel is. This luxury car tax is bollocks, even a Toyota land cruiser is going to set you back +$100,000. A G Wagon $300,000, in Europe it costs $140,000... seriously WTF?!

Australian Communism, where the only fuckers who can afford nice cars are Lebanese, Politicians and Chinese.

Do you need a big car for your family or an expensive one that’ll get you noticed by wankers down the golf club?

[Monkey Magic]

Any decent big, affordable EVs? We need a 7 seater and anytime I look the only options are top end. There's the Prius+ as a hybrid but as far as I remember the extra seats are small and take up all the boot space?

Unless you want a huge expensive Tesla or Xc90 or Merc, then ‘no’
Am in same position as you, if we want a 7 seater then will have to get a petrol, and would probably be second hand to save cash. Nissan do an EV truck thing but looks like a van.

Not sure what the market is like in UK but have you looked into the Mitsubishi outlander hybrid. Pretty sure there is decent 7 seater option. And they've been around a while now and shown their reliability

[Sandstorm]

UK Tax breaks on hybrids are over. It’s all about EVs now.