Tri Nations: All Blacks vs Pumas: MATCH THREAD: Sat 14th Nov

[Gumboot]

Piutau's an excellent player who could've been a World Cup winner if he'd waited a while. But he didn't, so he wasn't.

[sockwithaticket]

If Lowe was eligible and playing in NZ, would you guys have him to start this weekend? He seems like the wing option the AB’s are missing atm (especially with Bridge injured).

In place of Clarke, I shouldn't think so.

No not in place of anyone, he was a good Super player, but that's about it.

I've no idea if Lowe is better now than he was while in NZ, but having gotten used to seeing Kiwis express surprise whenever Gopperth is lauded or wins an award on the basis that he wasn't much cop as a SR player years and years ago; you guys understand that it's possible for them to improve having come North, yeah?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

In place of Clarke, I shouldn't think so.

No not in place of anyone, he was a good Super player, but that's about it.

I've no idea if Lowe is better now than he was while in NZ, but having gotten used to seeing Kiwis express surprise whenever Gopperth is lauded or wins an award on the basis that he wasn't much cop as a SR player years and years ago; you guys understand that it's possible for them to improve having come North, yeah?

That's not really representing it accurately though, is it. In truth, after a fairly mediocre Super Rugby career, Gopperth made an immediate impression on the English competition, scoring more than 200 points in his debut season.

That's when the Kiwis expressed surprise.

These days I think most of us had pretty much forgotten about him, until you brought him up just now.

[sockwithaticket]

No not in place of anyone, he was a good Super player, but that's about it.

I've no idea if Lowe is better now than he was while in NZ, but having gotten used to seeing Kiwis express surprise whenever Gopperth is lauded or wins an award on the basis that he wasn't much cop as a SR player years and years ago; you guys understand that it's possible for them to improve having come North, yeah?

That's not really representing it accurately though, is it. In truth, after a fairly mediocre Super Rugby career, Gopperth made an immediate impression on the English competition, scoring more than 200 points in his debut season.

That's when the Kiwis expressed surprise.

These days I think most of us had pretty much forgotten about him, until you brought him up just now.

He's won a couple of player awards in the last few years which always prompt a round of 'he wasn't a very good soup player' as if time had stood still in the intervening decade .

Was he not a good goal kicker down south? That's the only reason 200 points should have been a surprise. 22 league games provides a lot of opportunities to kick sticks.

[obelixtim]

Why is there always the need to change the all blacks starting 15?

1. Is it to rotate and keep players fresh?
2. Is it to keep players happy by ensuring most get a chance to start?
3. Is it that the coaching staff is not sure about who the best 15 players are?

4. Fozzie is an idiot.

Fixxed.

I don’t like Foster, but he didn’t pioneer this approach and neither has he been the worst. Anyone remember Henry splitting the abs into two teams for Ireland and Argentina?

Yeah, but Henrys' two teams both won those games. He blew it by not giving his vast group of good players enough game time together. Overrotation. People could see that 2007 failure coming, just as they could see Shags 2019 approach wasn't the best, in fact was concerning since 2017 Lions.

Fozzie, if he was any good would create his own approach, and not follow the failed approach of Shag. People were concerned even before he was appointed, partly based on his failure as a soup coach. Right now he has a 50% record, with a 40 point turnaround in his last game. Hardly spectacular.

[Jerome_Kaino]

LOWE just like Akhee were average chiefs players who went on to play for an average tier 1 team, could say the same for anscombe and parkes, All Black rejects is the correct term..NZ have better wings otions that can bring on if they lost reece and clarke and reiko today

Charles Piutau on the other hand... was a class All Black who should never have been allowed to escape ...

Nah, I reckon Charlie Faumuina and Victor Vito were the only overseas guys the All Blacks truly missed since 2015. The rest of them were sooner or later replaced by superior players.

Damn would be good to have Faumuina back

[Gumboot]

With the side being named this arvo, who do you want to see selected?

This is my preferred 23:

15. B Barrett
14 J Barrett
13 ALB
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Mo'unga
9 Smith

8 Savea
7 Cane
6 Frizell
5 Whitelock
4 Vaa'i
3 Laulala
2 Coles
1 Moody

16 Aumua, 17 Hodgman, 18 Lomax, 19 S Barrett, 20 Sotutu, 21 Weber, 22 Laumape, 23 R Ioane

[Dan54]

With the side being named this arvo, who do you want to see selected?

This is my preferred 23:

15. B Barrett
14 J Barrett
13 ALB
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Mo'unga
9 Smith

8 Savea
7 Cane
6 Frizell
5 Whitelock
4 Vai'i
3 Laulala
2 Coles
1 Moody

16 Aumua, 17 Hodgman, 18 Lomax, 19 S Barrett, 20 Sotutu, 21 Weber, 22 Laumape, 23 R Ioane

I would be pretty keen on Akira getting another run, as he missed out through no fault of his own last week. I actually doubt whether the first stringers will be put out this week, I would actually go for more or less the same as last week and say sort it out boys!

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

With the side being named this arvo, who do you want to see selected?

This is my preferred 23:

15. B Barrett
14 J Barrett
13 ALB
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Mo'unga
9 Smith

8 Savea
7 Cane
6 Frizell
5 Whitelock
4 Vai'i
3 Laulala
2 Coles
1 Moody

16 Aumua, 17 Hodgman, 18 Lomax, 19 S Barrett, 20 Sotutu, 21 Weber, 22 Laumape, 23 R Ioane

Looks on the money for mine. I fear that team would slaughter an underdone Argentina, but it would be our best match day 23 at present.

[Carter's Choice]

I would actually go for more or less the same as last week and say sort it out boys!

So you want BB to start once again at no.10? We have so few tests between now and the next RWC and yet you want to keep gifting BB tests at 10 so he can eventually play okay.

[Gumboot]

So we unanimously agree - Jordie goes back to right wing and Vaa'i is now ahead of Tuipulotu?

[obelixtim]

I would actually go for more or less the same as last week and say sort it out boys!

So you want BB to start once again at no.10? We have so few tests between now and the next RWC and yet you want to keep gifting BB tests at 10 so he can eventually play okay.

If BB is going to Japan next year, I don't see any point in giving him games, except maybe off the pine. Should be giving guys who are sticking around the game time and experience.

[Carter's Choice]

I would actually go for more or less the same as last week and say sort it out boys!

So you want BB to start once again at no.10? We have so few tests between now and the next RWC and yet you want to keep gifting BB tests at 10 so he can eventually play okay.

If BB is going to Japan next year, I don't see any point in giving him games, except maybe off the pine. Should be giving guys who are sticking around the game time and experience.

My understanding is that BB will be available for all AB tests next year, despite not playing SR. This unprecedented deal was part of a love-pact made between him and Steve Hansen.

[obelixtim]

So you want BB to start once again at no.10? We have so few tests between now and the next RWC and yet you want to keep gifting BB tests at 10 so he can eventually play okay.

If BB is going to Japan next year, I don't see any point in giving him games, except maybe off the pine. Should be giving guys who are sticking around the game time and experience.

My understanding is that BB will be available for all AB tests next year, despite not playing SR. This unprecedented deal was part of a love-pact made between him and Steve Hansen.

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

[Carter's Choice]

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

[obelixtim]

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

He showed last Saturday that he's not a test first fives ring piece. RMo could become one of the greats. If Fozzie keeps indulging BB, RMo could be another one lost to NZ.

[Dan54]

I would actually go for more or less the same as last week and say sort it out boys!

So you want BB to start once again at no.10? We have so few tests between now and the next RWC and yet you want to keep gifting BB tests at 10 so he can eventually play okay.

I don't have a problem if they put out same team, anyone who think BB was the only player who was crap last week has a hole in their head, I thought him and TJ were both pretty ordinary, but I was actually thinking more of in the forwards I would like to see some redemption, I think Codie has been so far below his best (and I reckoned he best 2 in world last year) that I want to see him go again . Mind you if as you seem to be saying BB was the only AB who played so badly we need to put DMac there , as we can't go into next WC with only one 10! I think apart from Cane and Savea (and surprisingly Akira) the whole forward pack was fairly ordinary last week, and I certainly not calling for them to get thrown out.

[Dan54]

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

Sam Whitelock was under same deal this year , just Japanese rugby got called off. And isn't TJ and Lurch under same deal? But by all means lets make up stories , I suppose it more fun.

[Sandstorm]

Stalling RM’s development

[Grandpa]

I'd like to see some experimentation... sill long way from next world cup... and can't say we're happy with any performance so far... I'd like the forwards to be far more aggressive for starters... we know what Ardie can do... lets find some decent depth at loose forward...

15. B Barrett
14 R Ioane
13 ALB
12 Goodhue
11 Clarke
10 Mo'unga
9 Smith

8 Sotutu
7 Cane
6 A Ioane
5 Whitelock
4 Tuipulotu
3 Laulala
2 Coles
1 Moody

16 Aumua, 17 Hodgman, 18 Lomax, 19 S Barrett, 20 A Savea, 21 Weber, 22 Umaga-Jensen, 23 McKenzie

[Ymx]

Piutau's an excellent player who could've been a World Cup winner if he'd waited a while. But he didn't, so he wasn't.

Before him it was only players in their sunset years, or journeymen.

He was on the up in the ABs. And it was a disturbing thought this may happen more often. Fortunately it’s not really so far.

[Carter's Choice]

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

Sam Whitelock was under same deal this year , just Japanese rugby got called off. And isn't TJ and Lurch under same deal? But by all means lets make up stories , I suppose it more fun.

This is either dishonest or ignorant. Sam Whitelock was signed to play in Japan this year, but unlike BB in 2021 he originally wasn't permitted to play for the AB's this season. That's until COVID-19 came along and he signed with the Crusaders and played every minute of SR Aotearoa.

And Retallick, like BB in 2021, was signed for a Japanese club this year. But unlike BB he wasn't permitted to play for the AB's this year.

Thank you for making my point for me

[Steve]

Piutau's an excellent player who could've been a World Cup winner if he'd waited a while. But he didn't, so he wasn't.

Before him it was only players in their sunset years, or journeymen.

He was on the up in the ABs. And it was a disturbing thought this may happen more often. Fortunately it’s not really so far.

The fact he was overlooked for the RWC in 2015 was a warning to anyone else thinking about pulling that stunt.

I believe Piutau was still technically eligible as he had played super that year but he was basically shunned as a "fuck you" because he was walking out the door.

He was playing super stuff and bailed the allblacks out in Paris on an Autumn tour prior to it.

A real shame and a real one that got away.

[Gumboot]

Piutau's an excellent player who could've been a World Cup winner if he'd waited a while. But he didn't, so he wasn't.

Before him it was only players in their sunset years, or journeymen.

He was on the up in the ABs. And it was a disturbing thought this may happen more often. Fortunately it’s not really so far.

The fact he was overlooked for the RWC in 2015 was a warning to anyone else thinking about pulling that stunt.

I believe Piutau was still technically eligible as he had played super that year but he was basically shunned as a "fuck you" because he was walking out the door.

He was playing super stuff and bailed the allblacks out in Paris on an Autumn tour prior to it.

A real shame and a real one that got away.

Yep, he could've been a starter for years. That said, I'm comfortable with the decision to exclude him from the RWC squad. He made his bed, etc.

[Dan54]

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

Sam Whitelock was under same deal this year , just Japanese rugby got called off. And isn't TJ and Lurch under same deal? But by all means lets make up stories , I suppose it more fun.

This is either dishonest or ignorant. Sam Whitelock was signed to play in Japan this year, but unlike BB in 2021 he originally wasn't permitted to play for the AB's this season. That's until COVID-19 came along and he signed with the Crusaders and played every minute of SR Aotearoa.

And Retallick, like BB in 2021, was signed for a Japanese club this year. But unlike BB he wasn't permitted to play for the AB's this year.

Thank you for making my point for me

Cheers I was just guessing there on Whitelock, (by the way he was permitted to play, but was having the whole year off by choice) so I thought I better check, but I do know Retallick is signed in Japan next year and is permitted to play next year, and that's after 2 years away! You are welcome on getting me to check that too, so really appreciate you assisting me to correct your misleading post (again)

[Dan54]

Before him it was only players in their sunset years, or journeymen.

He was on the up in the ABs. And it was a disturbing thought this may happen more often. Fortunately it’s not really so far.

The fact he was overlooked for the RWC in 2015 was a warning to anyone else thinking about pulling that stunt.

I believe Piutau was still technically eligible as he had played super that year but he was basically shunned as a "fuck you" because he was walking out the door.

He was playing super stuff and bailed the allblacks out in Paris on an Autumn tour prior to it.

A real shame and a real one that got away.

Yep, he could've been a starter for years. That said, I'm comfortable with the decision to exclude him from the RWC squad. He made his bed, etc.

Yep but we really only lost him for the WC tournament, fortunately we didn't miss him. He was obviously not going to be long term AB as he was disappearing after that anyway!

[Monkey Magic]

Can imagine those that have played every test so far will be given a rest except Cane

So Jordie and ALB out in the backs bringing in Reece and moving BB back to 15? Unless Jordan has passed his hia protocols

[Kiwias]

[stemoc]

expect a lot of kick and chase by argentina on that right wing

[Wild Beef]

Foster sending ScoBarr a message. Looks like he thinks that yellow was pivotal (and it was).

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

So he gets his cake and eats it as well.

Yep. And he gets to choose his own AB jersey number, in the process stalling the development of his main rival Richie Mo'unga. The All Blacks are now run solely to benefit the Barrett siblings. Every other player is irrelevant.

He showed last Saturday that he's not a test first fives ring piece. RMo could become one of the greats. If Fozzie keeps indulging BB, RMo could be another one lost to NZ.

Sing Hallelujah!

[Jb1981]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

[Dan54]

Feel a little sorry for Akira, but real pleased Scott Barrett has been stood down, I really hope it was with a good kick up the jacksie for dumbfuckery!!

[Wild Beef]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

I disagree, better to test new players against a decent squad rather than an anticipated walkover. I think Foster always intended to return to close-to-full strength for Argentina to continue developing the A team and forming combinations.

[Dan54]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

I disagree, better to test new players against a decent squad rather than an anticipated walkover. I think Foster always intended to return to close-to-full strength for Argentina to continue developing the A team and forming combinations.

Agreed, no good seeing them look great against a weak Pumas and think they are the better then they are.

[Carter's Choice]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

I disagree, better to test new players against a decent squad rather than an anticipated walkover. I think Foster always intended to return to close-to-full strength for Argentina to continue developing the A team and forming combinations.

The best way to introduce new players is to insert them into a largely stable XXIII. It's not about whether the opponent is strong or weak, it's about the support and structures around them. Foster made too many changes last week and set his team up for failure.

[Kiwias]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

I disagree, better to test new players against a decent squad rather than an anticipated walkover. I think Foster always intended to return to close-to-full strength for Argentina to continue developing the A team and forming combinations.

The best way to introduce new players is to insert them into a largely stable XXIII. It's not about whether the opponent is strong or weak, it's about the support and structures around them. Foster made too many changes last week and set his team up for failure.

Absolutely this. I want Foster to pick his best 23 basically for every match, with changes to the starting XV restricted to injury and using the bench to introduce new players.

[el camino]

I disagree, better to test new players against a decent squad rather than an anticipated walkover. I think Foster always intended to return to close-to-full strength for Argentina to continue developing the A team and forming combinations.

The best way to introduce new players is to insert them into a largely stable XXIII. It's not about whether the opponent is strong or weak, it's about the support and structures around them. Foster made too many changes last week and set his team up for failure.

Absolutely this. I want Foster to pick his best 23 basically for every match, with changes to the starting XV restricted to injury and using the bench to introduce new players.

Totally agree. I know nobody else on here is a Laumape fanboi but it really fucks me off that he only ever seems to get to play with an unsettled forward pack and out of form halfback/first fives. Also I honestly have no idea what MacKenzie offers off the bench when there are two better players in every position he plays already on the field. Such an idiotic bench selection from Foster.

[Enzedder]

That’s a strong team. The irony is that in making the wholesale changes in the name of player development last week and losing, Foster has had to go back to full strength this week in a game far better suited to giving some of the new guys a go.

Cam on to post much the same thing. He learned a lot about his players last week though, I am picking.

[Trapper]

Happy to see Webber on the bench and TJ given time off to think about his atrocious display on the weekend.