Tri Nations: All Blacks vs Pumas: MATCH THREAD: Sat 14th Nov

[stemoc]

forget Jordan he is gone this year... whats lacking in the team is a PILFER..NZ are in a situation Australia was in a few years back where their best pilfer was benched for someone who only started at 7 cause he was captain and their best 7 either benched or moved to 8....what u need is either kirifi, boshier or papali at 7.. not Cane, drop him as captain and you won't even need him there.... Matera showed today why if you wear the captains armband, you must act like the captain..the best backrow is frizell, savea and sotutu, but that won't be happening as long as you keep dragging cane around.. he is OK.. but he is not captain level OK...i know he seems to be playing well but mind you, Matt Todd played better and he was never captain.

[Steve]

You look at PSDT and Matera and then look at Frizell et al . I don’t see the menace or the inspiration. The Allblack team has no mongrel. The two Sams and Ardie do , but ardie is liable to tackle you and take a selfie and say a prayer with you after . It’s all a bit cosy .


I’ll be pilloried for this but the Allblacks have become a bit too nice for my liking . From the social media down to the dressing room beers.

Time to be cunts for a while . They have been towelled up two weeks in a row . Take Clarke’s try away and it was a hiding today.


Time for some boots on throats .

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

One of the worst AB performances I have seen.

We are becoming used to a lack of direction and creativity from Ian Foster coached sides.

Now they can't even execute the basics.

There is no doubt in my mind the best rugby side in NZ right now is actually the Crusaders.

[Steve]

forget Jordan he is gone this year... whats lacking in the team is a PILFER..NZ are in a situation Australia was in a few years back where their best pilfer was benched for someone who only started at 7 cause he was captain and their best 7 either benched or moved to 8....what u need is either kirifi, boshier or papali at 7.. not Cane, drop him as captain and you won't even need him there.... Matera showed today why if you wear the captains armband, you must act like the captain..the best backrow is frizell, savea and sotutu, but that won't be happening as long as you keep dragging cane around.. he is OK.. but he is not captain level OK...i know he seems to be playing well but mind you, Matt Todd played better and he was never captain.

I agree to an extent . But Cane is a fine player who could be accommodated at 6. He’s playing like a 6.

7 and 8 will sort itself out then with the players you mentioned .

[Trapper]

Our entire pack got beasted. That starts in the front row, not in the back row.

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

[Turbster]

This game bought home a number of issues team and tactical issues which beg answers:
The tactical battle was well lost, and it is clear the messages from the zoo are very much mixed! Too many cooks anyone? And who is running the show?
Sam Cane is a warrior, but he is no captain.
BB taking kick offs and 22's tells RMo he can't be trusted.
We have had years now to create a response to a rush defence, yet still can't make it happen in a game.

Even with that, let's be gracious and applaud the Argies victory. Stunning!

[mrbrownstone]

One of the worst AB performances I have seen.

We are becoming used to a lack of direction and creativity from Ian Foster coached sides.

Now they can't even execute the basics.

There is no doubt in my mind the best rugby side in NZ right now is actually the Crusaders.

Think this has been true for the last couple of years. It's all down to cohesion, leadership, and coaching.

[Not_Couch]

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Frizzell and Sotutu got manhandled out there by the Argie boys. They are not the answer.

[Trapper]

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Frizzell and Sotutu got manhandled out there by the Argie boys. They are not the answer.

They all got manhandled, what do you suggest? Or do you think we should keep going with what we have?
Sotutu made more meters off the back of the scrum with 2 runs than Ardie made all day. I already said Frizell is not the answer.

[Gumboot]

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Fair enough. I think our biggest problem is we've had an unsettled front row with far too much emphasis placed on mobility since Franks got dropped. And we have a slow and soft tighthead lock. Nothing we change in the loose forwards will make a difference until we address those issues.

[mrbrownstone]

We can shuffle deckchairs all we want, but the truth right now is that our tight-five is average and filled with rookies.

In 5 tests we've introduced Va'i, Hodgman, Aumua, Lomax to test footy and reintroduced big Karl. Coles looks more interested in starting fights than playing rugby, Ofa went and got himself banned, Moody was for some reason flogged for 72 minutes after a long layoff, and Tuipolotu still isn't dominating physically at test level. Whitelock was our best today IMO but he can't carry everything himself.

Our tight five is nowhere near world class right now, and we can no longer fall back on Brodie to paper over the cracks with individual excellence. We're a far, far cry from the days of peak Moody/Coles/Franks/Retallick/Whitelock.

[Not_Couch]

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Frizzell and Sotutu got manhandled out there by the Argie boys. They are not the answer.

They all got manhandled, what do you suggest? Or do you think we should keep going with what we have?
Sotutu made more meters off the back of the scrum with 2 runs than Ardie made all day. I already said Frizell is not the answer.

Our scrum was going backwards hence why Ardie wasn't running. It only tightened up when the reserves from both teams arrived.

And let's not act like Sotutu has ball skills, his botch up no look pass when he had a clear size advantage and space showed me more how much he lacks than anything. He cannot create a try or set one up. We don't have a replacement for Keiran Reid(who was a great captain and lineout option) and it will take a few years yet, Akira has the given talent but lacks the mental toughness, Ardie should be 7, and Whitelock should be our captain.

[Turbster]

... and as far as the team today:
BB barely got involved except to kick the ball away again and again.
Jordie got the drops, kicked the ball down the Argies throats when he did catch it. Perhaps he never recovered from that early knock?
ALB was in recovery mode most of the day, but only ever got the ball under pressure.
Jacko charged hard early but appeared to runout of gas.
Clarke was enthusiastic but took the ball into contact too often when he could have opted for space, or to move the ball on.
RMo never got enough ball to run the cutter properly.
Smith probably did as he was asked and just served up ball all day. Great tackle on D!
Ardie was great when he was involved, just too infrequently.
Frizzell carried his heart out, but this trio doesn't work. There is no balance or continuity.
Sam Cane is a warrior, but no captain!
SamW tried hard as always, but got little support.
Paddy should never see an AB shed again. Lazy!
Lomax looked out of his depth.
Coles was back to being the knobhead of 10 years ago.
Moody had a good game for the most part.
If this was the EPL, Fozzy would be gone already! I'm glad it's not, but the alarm bells must be clanging! You must question the tactical nous of the entire panel, as Argentina did what they always do, just with enthusiasm and good old guts. Our brainstrust simply never had the plans it seems, to combat that.

[Carter's Choice]

We can shuffle deckchairs all we want, but the truth right now is that our tight-five is average and filled with rookies.

In 5 tests we've introduced Va'i, Hodgman, Aumua, Lomax to test footy and reintroduced big Karl. Coles looks more interested in starting fights than playing rugby, Ofa went and got himself banned, Moody was for some reason flogged for 72 minutes after a long layoff, and Tuipolotu still isn't dominating physically at test level. Whitelock was our best today IMO but he can't carry everything himself.

Our tight five is nowhere near world class right now, and we can no longer fall back on Brodie to paper over the cracks with individual excellence. We're a far, far cry from the days of peak Moody/Coles/Franks/Retallick/Whitelock.

It's easy to blame our tight five for everything, but Moody, Coles, Taylor, Tu'ungfasi and Tuipulotu have all played well this year. The reality is our entire team is playing worse than the sum of its parts.

[Lemoentjie]

One of the more uncomfortable truths that ABs fans might have to face is just that... their players aren't really that good anymore.

Which of their starting XV today is the best player in the world in their position? I'd say Goodhue, and that's it. Retallick would be there if he was playing.

In 2011 or 2015, there's at least 7-8 who are the best in the world in their position. Even having an amazing coach can't stop that change.

[obelixtim]

We can shuffle deckchairs all we want, but the truth right now is that our tight-five is average and filled with rookies.

In 5 tests we've introduced Va'i, Hodgman, Aumua, Lomax to test footy and reintroduced big Karl. Coles looks more interested in starting fights than playing rugby, Ofa went and got himself banned, Moody was for some reason flogged for 72 minutes after a long layoff, and Tuipolotu still isn't dominating physically at test level. Whitelock was our best today IMO but he can't carry everything himself.

Our tight five is nowhere near world class right now, and we can no longer fall back on Brodie to paper over the cracks with individual excellence. We're a far, far cry from the days of peak Moody/Coles/Franks/Retallick/Whitelock.

It's easy to blame our tight five for everything, but Moody, Coles, Taylor, Tu'ungfasi and Tuipulotu have all played well this year. The reality is our entire team is playing worse than the sum of its parts.

Fosters influence (or lack of it) is shown in the poor discipline and lack of a decent game plan, or a plan B to go to if things are not working. A lot of these players have been in winning AB teams. Why are they suddenly playing so poorly with an apparent lack of desire and hunger? There seems to be no team work, people are playing as individuals.

That to me points directly at the people in charge. It looks like the players have no respect for the coaching team.

[Gumboot]

Pedestrian Paddy has had more than enough chances, imo. Next!

[Steve]

Tuipolotu started at lock in Chicago for the first loss to Ireland . Get out of the fucking rugby team you lazy excuse for a lock.

[Trapper]

It’s all so stale. NZR missed a great opportunity to inject new life into the ABs with a new coaching team and a fresh approach. I could never, ever imagine a team of that quality dishing up such a lacklustre performance under Razor.

[Steve]

Dour demeanour in coaching box. Dour on the field.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Tuipolotu started at lock in Chicago for the first loss to Ireland . Get out of the fucking rugby team you lazy excuse for a lock.

Give the man an extra serving of pasta. It makes all the difference... as a spectator!

GTFO you sack of shit!

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Dour demeanour in coaching box. Dour on the field.

Ah you know...disappointed would be the word....wanted to get rid of the ill discipline...well done Argentina...zzzzzz

Fuck off Foster you absolute fraudulent cunt.

[Trapper]

Dour demeanour in coaching box. Dour on the field.

Ah you know...disappointed would be the word....wanted to get rid of the ill discipline...well done Argentina...zzzzzz

Fuck off Foster you absolute fraudulent cunt.

[Wild Beef]

Reckon Argentina not being given enough credit too. They were epic tbf.

[Not_Couch]

Reckon Argentina not being given enough credit too. They were epic tbf.

Please crawl back up Foster's anus will ya?

Fuck you very much

[ScarfaceClaw]

So I’ve just started watching the match. Obviously know the score but initial thoughts, Sanchez you arm flapping ref whinging twat. You’re making Sexton and Biggar look normal.

8 minutes in.

[Ted.]

Good to know, any suggestions, or you just leaving that here?

Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that starting Sotutu, Boshier and Akira Ioane is going to turn things around?

Unfortunately, we’ll never know. I would like to see a 7 with mobility that can get around the park and pilfer ball, that would be Ardie as he’s in the squad and has experience and has played well there. I’d like to see a big bruising 8 with the skills for the job and for me, that’s Sotutu. And if Cane has to play he should be at 6 because that’s the role he is suited to imo but I really don’t think he is the answer there either but as I said Akira looked good there last week but we’ll never know because Cane is nailed in at 7. What I do know is that Frizell/Cane/ Savea doesn’t work.

Couldn't agree more. Though I would like to see Callum Grace given a decent crack at 6.

[ScarfaceClaw]

It’s not that bad a start from the All Blacks. Cynical as fuck Argie penalty knocking the ball out of Snecky’s hand.

Joggie Barrett wouldn’t worry any opposition in the world that he was playing against.

[ScarfaceClaw]

3 all with a Dick Mo penalty. I guess this is about the point the wheels fall off.

Chieka assistant coach for the Argies. Can this day get any worse.

[Gumboot]

Reckon Argentina not being given enough credit too. They were epic tbf.

You're quite right, Argentina were fantastic. As an ABs suporter, I'm just shocked at how poorly they played. Two weeks in a row of turgid shit with nothing to show for it takes time to process.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Argentinian defence is very very good. They’re stopping everything.

[Grandpa]

One of the more uncomfortable truths that ABs fans might have to face is just that... their players aren't really that good anymore.

Which of their starting XV today is the best player in the world in their position? I'd say Goodhue, and that's it. Retallick would be there if he was playing.

In 2011 or 2015, there's at least 7-8 who are the best in the world in their position. Even having an amazing coach can't stop that change.

I agree. NZ have been slowly going backwards since 2016/17 maybe earlier... it's a combination of players that are not quite the best in the world any more... and coaching which seems stale and old school (Even under Hansen last few years).

I think what is happening with these poor performances, is maybe the best thing that can happen for NZ rugby. Foster has to be seen to be a failure... had Scott Robertson been coach this year, he may have done better, but he would still have the same group of players to select from... and it would take him time to change the mentality and ability of the squad. He would have had the added pressure of being a newbie... and any failure would have been.. "should have picked Foster". Instead... Scott Robertson is looking a better coaching option by the week... and the best we can do is pray for further poor performances from NZ while Foster is coach, so that ideally Scott is brought in before the end of next year (when Foster's contract ends) to bring a revolution to the NZ game.. it's needed...

Thankfully SA and Argentina are still in the RC going forward, so the All Blacks won't turn into Super Rugby clones where competing at breakdowns is optional... they need to bring back some mongrel.. then the ruthless efficiency might return...

[PlanetGlyndwr]

que the pundits of yesteryear having a field day with the braindead "lost their aura" quips.


Well Done Pumas, well deserved.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Our back row is massively unbalanced. Most rucks so far we’ve only had one loosie competing at breakdown. Savea plays too much in the centres and while his busting runs look good it’s the breakdown where he’s not doing enough for me. Cane and Frizell are not working together and it’s all too easy for the Argies to pick us off or get clean ball.

Tuipolutu is too passive in general and lacks that “I will not lose even if I have to do it all myself” attitude that Retallick has.

[JM2K6]

Fuck me, that was something.

I'll preface this by saying I thought this would be a total waste of time, a completely untested Argentina side being put to the sword by a battle-hardened All Blacks team. Obviously that was completely wrong.

That was one of the dumbest NZ performances I can remember seeing.

Sometimes you end up playing against a physical team who are getting the best of most of the contact situations. It happens. It's fairly rare for it to happen to NZ, but it happens nonetheless. A team like Argentina will feed off the energy of their defensive game and big carries. The last thing you want to do is keep giving them that energy. You need to starve them - starve them of the opportunity to make those big tackles, starve them of the freedom to play with the ball, starve them of momentum. Instead, NZ just played straight into their hands for virtually the entire game.

Right from the start NZ were getting smashed when they had the ball, and Argentina were making yards after contact on virtually every carry. NZ needed their front 5 to man up, which they didn't (no, Dane Coles, trying to pick a fight every couple of minutes is not what I mean) and the Big Hitters like Cane and Frizzell needed to put some momentum-halting hits in, which they couldn't. Add to that the backrow getting minced at the breakdown and this was pretty clearly a bad time for the ABs in the first half. So they changed things up - after getting smashed a few times, BB stepped in at 10 and did exactly the right thing, putting up a bomb for his brother to contest and causing some panic in the Argentinian defence. That worked quite well, so they didn't bother to do it again until the game was lost.

Seriously, I don't know what the fuck that team was thinking, but the ABs primary method of attack was a one-out pass to a single isolated forward standing at 10 and taking the ball at walking pace and getting lined up by a full steam Argentinian defence, who were very keen to smash everything that moved - one low, one high - and predictably getting mullered. Sometimes it was a back taking the pain instead. Plan A was clearly not working, so they just tried Plan A some more, and then a bit more after that. It's hard to win games of rugby when you're going backwards, but even harder if you just keep trying to do a failed tactic over and over and over.

I have criticisms of individuals - Frizzell was anonymous in defence, Savea was a ghost in general, Cane wasn't used on tight carries until it was too late, made none of his crash-test-dummy hits, and was comfortably beaten at the breakdown, the entire front 5 should return their match fee, Mo'unga's decision making, particularly about when to run and when to kick was very poor (and his kick dead was a killer), etc etc - but I think the tactics were the real villain here.

Unsupported forwards lumbering up into a meat grinder defence is not a good look; either pick and go up the guts to tie defenders in, or go back to the kicking game - short to make the defence think twice about steaming up, long for territory and let your defence make some tackles on smaller players for once, - use the maul more, tire the opposition defenders out, SUPPORT YOUR FUCKING BALL CARRIERS, etc. I expect this sort of rigidity of thinking from sides like England, not the All Blacks.

Still, well done Argentina. Funny how the discipline improves when the world's dirtiest player isn't playing, but also they had a fairly simple approach, executed it brilliantly, won all the important battles (set piece, breakdown, gain line) and frankly battered the All Blacks despite not having played together for a year. Huge credit to them. Now don't make it a one-off ambush performance.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Coles you absolute twat. What’s with the slap at the penalty.

[Ponga]

Just finished watching the replay as i had to work.

I dont normaly feel like i should coment cause you all are such experts!

FUCK YEAH argies! your defense just didnt stop the whole game.

My All Blacks were a 2nd tier team, only Sam W played like a world class player tonight. Our next string of senior players were very juvinile in everything they did! the young fullas were ok but we got smashed... the worst AB performance i have ever watched in 30 years.

The argies, the best ive ever watched and Im excited to watch them play Aussie next week, in all honesty i wouldnt have even bothered but im hoping they can turn up next week like that and i will be watching

[JM2K6]

Coles you absolute twat. What’s with the slap at the penalty.

He was looking for a fight from the first minute. There was an early penalty where he spent a good while just mouthing off to an Argentinian winger while the rest of his team were busy sorting themselves out for a close range move.

[assfly]

Fuck me, that was something.

I'll preface this by saying I thought this would be a total waste of time, a completely untested Argentina side being put to the sword by a battle-hardened All Blacks team. Obviously that was completely wrong.

That was one of the dumbest NZ performances I can remember seeing.

Sometimes you end up playing against a physical team who are getting the best of most of the contact situations. It happens. It's fairly rare for it to happen to NZ, but it happens nonetheless. A team like Argentina will feed off the energy of their defensive game and big carries. The last thing you want to do is keep giving them that energy. You need to starve them - starve them of the opportunity to make those big tackles, starve them of the freedom to play with the ball, starve them of momentum. Instead, NZ just played straight into their hands for virtually the entire game.

Right from the start NZ were getting smashed when they had the ball, and Argentina were making yards after contact on virtually every carry. NZ needed their front 5 to man up, which they didn't (no, Dane Coles, trying to pick a fight every couple of minutes is not what I mean) and the Big Hitters like Cane and Frizzell needed to put some momentum-halting hits in, which they couldn't. Add to that the backrow getting minced at the breakdown and this was pretty clearly a bad time for the ABs in the first half. So they changed things up - after getting smashed a few times, BB stepped in at 10 and did exactly the right thing, putting up a bomb for his brother to contest and causing some panic in the Argentinian defence. That worked quite well, so they didn't bother to do it again until the game was lost.

Seriously, I don't know what the fuck that team was thinking, but the ABs primary method of attack was a one-out pass to a single isolated forward standing at 10 and taking the ball at walking pace and getting lined up by a full steam Argentinian defence, who were very keen to smash everything that moved - one low, one high - and predictably getting mullered. Sometimes it was a back taking the pain instead. Plan A was clearly not working, so they just tried Plan A some more, and then a bit more after that. It's hard to win games of rugby when you're going backwards, but even harder if you just keep trying to do a failed tactic over and over and over.

I have criticisms of individuals - Frizzell was anonymous in defence, Savea was a ghost in general, Cane wasn't used on tight carries until it was too late, made none of his crash-test-dummy hits, and was comfortably beaten at the breakdown, the entire front 5 should return their match fee, Mo'unga's decision making, particularly about when to run and when to kick was very poor (and his kick dead was a killer), etc etc - but I think the tactics were the real villain here.

Unsupported forwards lumbering up into a meat grinder defence is not a good look; either pick and go up the guts to tie defenders in, or go back to the kicking game - short to make the defence think twice about steaming up, long for territory and let your defence make some tackles on smaller players for once, - use the maul more, tire the opposition defenders out, SUPPORT YOUR FUCKING BALL CARRIERS, etc. I expect this sort of rigidity of thinking from sides like England, not the All Blacks.

Still, well done Argentina. Funny how the discipline improves when the world's dirtiest player isn't playing, but also they had a fairly simple approach, executed it brilliantly, won all the important battles (set piece, breakdown, gain line) and frankly battered the All Blacks despite not having played together for a year. Huge credit to them. Now don't make it a one-off ambush performance.

Well put

[ScarfaceClaw]

The late tackle call against Joggie is a bit harsh. Made worse by the Argie having a bit of a Hollywood on the ground afterwards.