Is Ian Foster the worst All Black coach ever?

[Wild Beef]

Our game plan is confusing, we have 3x kickers in the starting 15 fighting to be playmaker in crucial areas in the game. Seems to be a lack of clarity in who calls the shots, Sam Cane does not have a captains IQ either and I don't think he carries the same mana as previous captains. The shortfalls goes beyond tactics and game plan, it's a lack of mental preparation, toughness and focus. That starts with man management and coaching.

Our gameplan is confused because our coach is confused. Too many play-makers and not enough people doing the hard, unfashionable work.

After the debacle in Brisbane we all expected a bounce back. It is clear that Ian Foster led teams aren't good enough to bounce back.

Well done NZR, you appointed the worst possible coach

I disagree. We bounced back after Wellington and we also played very well for Bled 3. Sky put together a tape with some of the All Black errors last night, ones you would not expect them to do, and it was a very long reel.

I will join you in blaming Fozzie but there is no way that an All Black should be making the errors we did last night. The players share the blame in my book.

And, spend a minute to praise the Argentinians who forced those errors upon us.

Good post. To summarise

Foster is shit. The worst thing about the abs last night was an abysmal game plan that never changed.

The ABs were shit, with or without poor coaching it was unacceptable.

Argentina were pretty damn good on the day!

[Enzedder]

Nope. Got to disagree with you Enz. Whenever England use to fail at football world cups was always the coaches fault. We kep picking the wrong one time and time again. With a good coach we would have won at least 4 of them by now.....or maybe 5.

Never just the coaches "fault". I am firmly of the belief that it's a team and the players need to man up and take some of the blame too. Anything less is accepting mediocrity.

The easy path is to blame the coach - they will historically take the blame but its never always their fault. Some of those player errors last night were mediocrity at its finest.

[Gumboot]

Nope. Got to disagree with you Enz. Whenever England use to fail at football world cups was always the coaches fault. We kep picking the wrong one time and time again. With a good coach we would have won at least 4 of them by now.....or maybe 5.

Never just the coaches "fault". I am firmly of the belief that it's a team and the players need to man up and take some of the blame too. Anything less is accepting mediocrity.

The easy path is to blame the coach - they will historically take the blame but its never always their fault. Some of those player errors last night were mediocrity at its finest.

And that was supposedly our "A" team.

Filthy.

[Carter's Choice]

Nope. Got to disagree with you Enz. Whenever England use to fail at football world cups was always the coaches fault. We kep picking the wrong one time and time again. With a good coach we would have won at least 4 of them by now.....or maybe 5.

Never just the coaches "fault". I am firmly of the belief that it's a team and the players need to man up and take some of the blame too. Anything less is accepting mediocrity.

The easy path is to blame the coach - they will historically take the blame but its never always their fault. Some of those player errors last night were mediocrity at its finest.

It's never just the coach's fault. Fault is a stupid word to use in the context of a team sport. It's the coach's responsibility.

[Flockwitt]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

[Gumboot]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

Nobody has detracted from the great Pumas performance. But there's no getting past the fact that it was an utterly incompetent display from the All Blacks. Pathetic.

Fuck it, I'm still stuck in the anger stage of grief. This shit takes time to process.

[Carter's Choice]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

We played terribly last week too. And we were the width of a goal post away from losing in Wellington. How long do you give Ian Foster before you're prepared to make a call on the 'actual state of things'? Especially given we all saw his mediocre ability as a head coach over eight seasons for the Chiefs.

[Carter's Choice]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

Nobody has detracted from the great Pumas performance. But there's no getting past the fact that it was an utterly incompetent display from the All Blacks. Pathetic.

Fuck it, I'm still stuck in the anger stage of grief. This shit takes time to process.

The AB's had every advantage. NZ has vastly more depth in our playing stocks. We've been playing Rugby all season. The Pumas have been in lockdown for months and hadn't played a test in over a year.

[Ted.]

laurie maine was at 78%, Foster is currently at 50%

40% win rate only. 2 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw.

Players used to come into the AB team and lift (Nonu being a good example). My fear is that we are starting to see the opposite.

Precisely.

The players are lacking direction and lack the ability to change the game plan and tactics on field, either because the decision makers on the filed lack the ability to do so, or they have not been given consent to make those decisions. Take your pick.

[Carter's Choice]

laurie maine was at 78%, Foster is currently at 50%

40% win rate only. 2 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw.

Players used to come into the AB team and lift (Nonu being a good example). My fear is that we are starting to see the opposite.

Precisely.

The players are lacking direction and lack the ability to change the game plan and tactics on field, either because the decision makers on the filed lack the ability to do so, or they have not been given consent to make those decisions. Take your pick.

Strange post. This team has been training together, probably twice a day, for months. You don't just change your game-plan and structures. That's called going rogue. The issues is that they clearly lack sufficient strategies to counter a range of match day scenarios. Fwiw I saw no coherent game plan yesterday except for Smith to clear the ball as quickly as he could, essentially forcing width before we had earned the right to go wide. We have no gameplan.

[Not_Couch]

Problem with Fozzies system is we never learnt from the beating we got from the British and Irish lions.

We can't handle rush defences, and we got exposed again today, theres basically been 3 years since 2018 to sort out, and we finally got put out of our misery by England in the RWC semi final.

Same coaches same philosophies same results.

Awful, as we always knew it was going to be.

[Flockwitt]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

We played terribly last week too. And we were the width of a goal post away from losing in Wellington. How long do you give Ian Foster before you're prepared to make a call on the 'actual state of things'? Especially given we all saw his mediocre ability as a head coach over eight seasons for the Chiefs.

I'd like to see how this Pumas team goes against the Wobs. The ABs also. They're used to losing 2 in a row and how they and the AB coach respond will be important. It's also not necessarily easy at the moment with a disrupted season and affects of like being stuck in Oz. Now's the time for the coaches to step up and get the players humming. I'll extend a bit of kindness for two more matches, then let's see where the pitchforks are.

For what it's worth I don't think Foster has what it takes. He just doesn't have the gravitas of Hansen and it reflects in the coach's box. Mistakes and pressure getting reactions from the entire coaching team that simply weren't seen in the previous regimes. If the coaches don't have confidence or at least project confidence and good judgement you can't expect the players to.

[Ted.]

40% win rate only. 2 wins, 2 losses, 1 draw.

Players used to come into the AB team and lift (Nonu being a good example). My fear is that we are starting to see the opposite.

Precisely.

The players are lacking direction and lack the ability to change the game plan and tactics on field, either because the decision makers on the filed lack the ability to do so, or they have not been given consent to make those decisions. Take your pick.

Strange post. This team has been training together, probably twice a day, for months. You don't just change your game-plan and structures. That's called going rogue. The issues is that they clearly lack sufficient strategies to counter a range of match day scenarios. Fwiw I saw no coherent game plan yesterday except for Smith to clear the ball as quickly as he could, essentially forcing width before we had earned the right to go wide. We have no gameplan.

I don;t necessarily disagree with what you say and your comments do not preclude mine being true, so I don't see why you needed to add the snide comment.

Be that as it may, teams do need a plan A, a plan B and a plan C and they also need the ability to call when to use each plan. A plan B or C may be as simple as to slow or speed up the game.

Successful teams also need someone with the ability and balls and mana to recognise what is not working in game and change it on the field. That is the what captains like McAwe, Johnston, Futzy, et al, brought to the table and they did have and use that power and influence on the field. Whether the ABs inability to change the plan is a failing of the coach or the captain, or is shared, is open to debate, but that it is (one of the) prerequisite(s) for a successful team at the top level to be able to play what is in front of them should not be in doubt.

[Ted.]

Problem with Fozzies system is we never learnt from the beating we got from the British and Irish lions.

We can't handle rush defences, and we got exposed again today, theres basically been 3 years since 2018 to sort out, and we finally got put out of our misery by England in the RWC semi final.

Same coaches same philosophies same results.

Awful, as we always knew it was going to be.

Agree with that, too.

[Gumboot]

Problem with Fozzies system is we never learnt from the beating we got from the British and Irish lions.

We can't handle rush defences, and we got exposed again today, theres basically been 3 years since 2018 to sort out, and we finally got put out of our misery by England in the RWC semi final.

Same coaches same philosophies same results.

Awful, as we always knew it was going to be.

Agree with that, too.

Yep. Could even go back a bit earlier than the Lions to the first ever loss to Ireland in Chicago, when Shag essentially outsmarted himself with his arrogant selection of Kaino to start at lock. It became increasingly clear from then on that something was seriously off - muddled selections and poor, clunky game plans became more common and culminated in the humiliating SF loss to England. A lot of that was on Shag, but now Fuzzy's simply picked up the baton and continued running with it. Feels like we're on a road to nowhere...

Fuzzy OUT!

[Carter's Choice]

Ian Foster was appointed AB coach as the continuation candidate. His appointment was an endorsement of the status quo. An endorsement of the 2015-2019 period, an endorsement of our RWC semi final failure and an endorsement of our ongoing inability to counter a rush defensive system. He was appointed to keep doing what he was already doing as an 8 year assistant coach.

[GiJoint]

It’s just a continuation of the last couple of years of the Hansen era where we have been on a downward trend. I really see nothing different under Foster. Other sides know that if they get in our faces with a good defence, we have no plan B.

[Carter's Choice]

This post on the Silver Fern forum is great, and really resonated with me;

Rather than revisiting the appointment process, I'd like to look at another problem with the current AB coaching panel that is starting to become apparent - they are too afraid to make the tough selection calls.

In my opinion they simply can't make up their minds and are too afraid to pull the trigger on picking the right team; rather they want to put all of the individuals they rate on the field and hope that their individual brilliance will get us over the line.

I'm going to call it the "can't choose, so why not both" AB selection policy.

If you have two great 7s (Cane, Savea), let's choose both, and move one of them to 8 so we can have both, even though that means we'll have a misbalanced loose forward trio.

If you have two very good 13s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 12 where they won't be as effective. Even better, let's switch them around the wrong way so that they'll both be playing worse.

If you have two very good 10s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 15, where he can influence play and we can have two playmakers, but when the shit hits the fan neither of them will step up and drive the team around.

If you have two very good Barretts who can play 15, let's choose both, and move one of them to the wing, even though that will mean that one of the form players in the country will be out of position and will playing alongside his brother who is also playing out of position.

At least back in the day, when coaches chose between Buck versus Zinzan, or Mehrts versus Spencer, we at least knew where they were going and what they were looking towards, and those decisions drove the results and decisions (by the public) about their selections. These guys are just guessing, and they are hoping that by trying to keep as many people happy for as long as possible, they will stumble across a combination of "choose boths" that will actually be a good team.

But that exposes a fallacy in their approach. By choosing both, they clearly don't have a picture of the type of game that they want to play. For those who argue (as I have), that Cane should be 7 and Savea off the bench, it is based on an idea that we lead with physical dominance and finish with speed and energy - in other words basically the same pattern that won the WC in 2015. It may well be that we have to move on from that, and need to establish a new pattern where we use Savea's tools from 7 from minute 1, in which case it's time for Cane to go and for us to front up to identifying and implementing a new pattern of play.

Either way, these coaches need to start making decisions. Just choose.

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/top ... thread/657

[Jb1981]

It is too easy to be negative so I have decided to view Foster through an achievement lens instead.

There may be more but this is a start:

- coached the All Blacks to a first ever loss to Argentina.

- Is dispelling the myth that anyone could coach the All Blacks to an 80%+ win record.

- Has given Springbok supporters something to smile about in these troubled times.

- Coached the ABs to their biggest winning margin vs. Australia.

- Oversaw a record points turnaround vs. Australia - from record victors to losers in one week.

[stemoc]

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

For all the angst (and loads of piffle in the NZ press) we shouldn't be detracting from the Argies performance. They earned their win and simply swiping at Foster isn't going to change that. We'll see the actual state of things in a week or two.

We played terribly last week too. And we were the width of a goal post away from losing in Wellington. How long do you give Ian Foster before you're prepared to make a call on the 'actual state of things'? Especially given we all saw his mediocre ability as a head coach over eight seasons for the Chiefs.

Exactly.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

It is too easy to be negative so I have decided to view Foster through an achievement lens instead.

There may be more but this is a start:

- coached the All Blacks to a first ever loss to Argentina.

- Is dispelling the myth that anyone could coach the All Blacks to an 80%+ win record.

- Has given Springbok supporters something to smile about in these troubled times.

[Wild Beef]

It is too easy to be negative so I have decided to view Foster through an achievement lens instead.

There may be more but this is a start:

- coached the All Blacks to a first ever loss to Argentina.

- Is dispelling the myth that anyone could coach the All Blacks to an 80%+ win record.

- Has given Springbok supporters something to smile about in these troubled times.

Didn’t we make some record smashing Aussie? Biggest margin? Or am I making that up?

[Carter's Choice]

Didn’t we make some record smashing Aussie? Biggest margin? Or am I making that up?

Oh look, the forum's 2nd biggest Foster fan (behind Dan 54) trying to put a positive spin on yesterday's debacle,

I remember Dan 54 tearfully demanding that we celebrate Ian Foster's appointment and proudly declaring that anyone who criticised Foster or NZR wasn't a real All Black fan. How pathetic.

[Ted.]

This post on the Silver Fern forum is great, and really resonated with me;

Rather than revisiting the appointment process, I'd like to look at another problem with the current AB coaching panel that is starting to become apparent - they are too afraid to make the tough selection calls.

In my opinion they simply can't make up their minds and are too afraid to pull the trigger on picking the right team; rather they want to put all of the individuals they rate on the field and hope that their individual brilliance will get us over the line.

I'm going to call it the "can't choose, so why not both" AB selection policy.

If you have two great 7s (Cane, Savea), let's choose both, and move one of them to 8 so we can have both, even though that means we'll have a misbalanced loose forward trio.

If you have two very good 13s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 12 where they won't be as effective. Even better, let's switch them around the wrong way so that they'll both be playing worse.

If you have two very good 10s, let's choose both, and move one of them to 15, where he can influence play and we can have two playmakers, but when the shit hits the fan neither of them will step up and drive the team around.

If you have two very good Barretts who can play 15, let's choose both, and move one of them to the wing, even though that will mean that one of the form players in the country will be out of position and will playing alongside his brother who is also playing out of position.

At least back in the day, when coaches chose between Buck versus Zinzan, or Mehrts versus Spencer, we at least knew where they were going and what they were looking towards, and those decisions drove the results and decisions (by the public) about their selections. These guys are just guessing, and they are hoping that by trying to keep as many people happy for as long as possible, they will stumble across a combination of "choose boths" that will actually be a good team.

But that exposes a fallacy in their approach. By choosing both, they clearly don't have a picture of the type of game that they want to play. For those who argue (as I have), that Cane should be 7 and Savea off the bench, it is based on an idea that we lead with physical dominance and finish with speed and energy - in other words basically the same pattern that won the WC in 2015. It may well be that we have to move on from that, and need to establish a new pattern where we use Savea's tools from 7 from minute 1, in which case it's time for Cane to go and for us to front up to identifying and implementing a new pattern of play.

Either way, these coaches need to start making decisions. Just choose.

https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/top ... thread/657

Not too dissimilar to what a number of us have been saying for a while now.

[akann]

John Mitchell wants a word..

Wtf? Mitchell coached the ABs to win over 80% of their games. Granted he failed in the RWc semi but he was still a decent enough coach and achieved some big wins in 03 against the Wallabies and the Boks. At least he had the excuse of being young and inexperienced at the time to justify some of his failures. He has now become a very good defence coach, one of the best actually. Foster is so out of his depth it's not funny and really doesn't have any excuses for being so poor, he has been in the setup for years and should be doing a lot better than he currently is.

[Carter's Choice]

Not too dissimilar to what a number of us have been saying for a while now.

Selection was Steve Hansens greatest weakness and it's looming as a major problem for Foster as well. Worryingly, Foster doesn't seem to be able to motivate his players, and doesn't appear to have earned their respect.

[Carter's Choice]

John Mitchell wants a word..

Wtf? Mitchell coached the ABs to win over 80% of their games. Granted he failed in the RWc semi but he was still a decent enough coach and achieved some big wins in 03 agaisnt the Wallabies and the Boks. At least he had the excuse of being young and inexperienced at the time to justify some of his failures. He has now become a very good defence coach, one of the best actually. Foster is so out of his depth it's not funny and really doesn't have any excuses for being so poor, he has been in the setup for years and should be doing a lot better than he currently is.

A 40% winning record as the AB head coach is diabolical. At very best, Foster's team can beat Arg in a fortnight and he will be starting the 2nd year of his Head Coach tenure with a 50% winning record. And that's with the Springboks staying at home.

[akann]

John Mitchell wants a word..

Wtf? Mitchell coached the ABs to win over 80% of their games. Granted he failed in the RWc semi but he was still a decent enough coach and achieved some big wins in 03 agaisnt the Wallabies and the Boks. At least he had the excuse of being young and inexperienced at the time to justify some of his failures. He has now become a very good defence coach, one of the best actually. Foster is so out of his depth it's not funny and really doesn't have any excuses for being so poor, he has been in the setup for years and should be doing a lot better than he currently is.

A 40% winning record as the AB head coach is diabolical. At very best, Foster's team can beat Arg in a fortnight and he will be starting the 2nd year of his Head Coach tenure with a 50% winning record. And that's with the Springboks staying at home.

Yeah it's inexcusable to have a record like this especially when you consider that they are only up against the 7th and 10th ranked teams in the world.

[Carter's Choice]

Yeah it's inexcusable to have a record like this especially when you consider that they are only up against the 7th and 10th ranked teams in the world.

Yet the Ian Foster apologists will be on social media and in the press heaping blame and responsibility on the players. Foster is a creature of NZR and that organisation will now fiercely protect him. I expect a couple of rookie players to made an example of an treated as scapegoats. Lomax? Maybe Sotutu as well?

[Wild Beef]

Didn’t we make some record smashing Aussie? Biggest margin? Or am I making that up?

Oh look, the forum's 2nd biggest Foster fan (behind Dan 54) trying to put a positive spin on yesterday's debacle,

I remember Dan 54 tearfully demanding that we celebrate Ian Foster's appointment and proudly declaring that anyone who criticised Foster or NZR wasn't a real All Black fan. How pathetic.

I quoted someone listing achievements so I somewhat tongue-in-cheek made this comment (which is entirely factual too).

But NZers love a scapegoat and it seems Dan54 and I pay the price for not expressing the same degree of hatred as everyone else.

Also, We all know you love a good narrative AC.

[Wild Beef]

Yeah it's inexcusable to have a record like this especially when you consider that they are only up against the 7th and 10th ranked teams in the world.

Yet the Ian Foster apologists will be on social media and in the press heaping blame and responsibility on the players. Foster is a creature of NZR and that organisation will now fiercely protect him. I expect a couple of rookie players to made an example of an treated as scapegoats. Lomax? Maybe Sotutu as well?

God forbid we hold any of the players to account.

[Carter's Choice]

God forbid we hold any of the players to account.

We always hold players to account. They are the only ones who will face repercussions from last night's shameful performance - players will be yelled at and dropped. Test careers will be ended. Meanwhile Foster, Plumtree and Mooar will continue to earn a million bucks a year with zero responsibility or accountability.

[Carter's Choice]

Didn’t we make some record smashing Aussie? Biggest margin? Or am I making that up?

Oh look, the forum's 2nd biggest Foster fan (behind Dan 54) trying to put a positive spin on yesterday's debacle,

I remember Dan 54 tearfully demanding that we celebrate Ian Foster's appointment and proudly declaring that anyone who criticised Foster or NZR wasn't a real All Black fan. How pathetic.

I quoted someone listing achievements so I somewhat tongue-in-cheek made this comment (which is entirely factual too).

But NZers love a scapegoat and it seems Dan54 and I pay the price for not expressing the same degree of hatred as everyone else.

Also, We all know you love a good narrative AC.

NZR ran a rigged recruitment process to appoint a coach who won nothing over 8 years at SR level. And you demanded we respect that coach and called us traitors if we questioned the process.

[Wild Beef]

Na I never said that. I thought the process was shit. But i guess you need your scape goat to have said those words so here we are.

[akann]

Yeah it's inexcusable to have a record like this especially when you consider that they are only up against the 7th and 10th ranked teams in the world.

Yet the Ian Foster apologists will be on social media and in the press heaping blame and responsibility on the players. Foster is a creature of NZR and that organisation will now fiercely protect him. I expect a couple of rookie players to made an example of an treated as scapegoats. Lomax? Maybe Sotutu as well?

I'm surprised that he still has supporters tbh. I wonder if the people still supporting him know deep down that he is actually pants but refuse to admit it because it would mean that they will have to acknowledge that they were so wrong in the first place.

Shame on Henry and Hansen for backing him btw. They put their mate ahead of the AB jersey and that's an unforgivable act of treachery imo.

[Carter's Choice]

Yeah it's inexcusable to have a record like this especially when you consider that they are only up against the 7th and 10th ranked teams in the world.

Yet the Ian Foster apologists will be on social media and in the press heaping blame and responsibility on the players. Foster is a creature of NZR and that organisation will now fiercely protect him. I expect a couple of rookie players to made an example of an treated as scapegoats. Lomax? Maybe Sotutu as well?

I'm surprised that he still has supporters tbh. I wonder if the people still supporting him know deep down that he is actually pants but refuse to admit it because it would mean that they will have to acknowledge that they were so wrong in the first place.

Shame on Henry and Hansen for backing him btw. They put their mate ahead of the AB jersey and that's an unforgivable act of treachery imo.

Foster is supported by NZR because admitting that he isn't up to the job would be an admission that their recruitment process was a farce and also an admission that their nepotistic 'jobs for the boys' culture was toxic. He was appointed as a continuity, status quo candidate despite a terrible 2019 RWC campaign and despite losing the Rugby Championship in the same year. NZR saw what happened during the 2019 RWC semi final and decided they wanted 4-8 more years of that.

[stemoc]

I hear they are replacing Fiji with NZ in the Autumn Nations Cup .. it seems like its the best time to be able to beat NZ..

[Carter's Choice]

I hear they are replacing Fiji with NZ in the Autumn Nations Cup .. it seems like its the best time to be able to beat NZ..

Why be dumb for?

[Jb1981]

It is too easy to be negative so I have decided to view Foster through an achievement lens instead.

There may be more but this is a start:

- coached the All Blacks to a first ever loss to Argentina.

- Is dispelling the myth that anyone could coach the All Blacks to an 80%+ win record.

- Has given Springbok supporters something to smile about in these troubled times.

Didn’t we make some record smashing Aussie? Biggest margin? Or am I making that up?

Fair point, I had forgotten that after the last couple of weeks but have updated the list with the record margin and then worst points swing between weeks.