The Scottish Politics Thread

[westport]

The other day the smacking ban became law with Children's Minister (Maree Todd) trying to justify the legislation as a means of clarifying existing legal provisions. Ms Todd finished her defence by reminding everyone that is was now illegal to smack children in Scotland but her last few words chilled me to the bone.

They were simply "it is now forbidden by the State"

Wonder what will be next to be "forbidden by the State"

[Tichtheid]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure why outlawing hitting children is so chilling.

[Biffer]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure why outlawing hitting children is so chilling.

Is it not also forbidden in 58 other countries? Do we think those are all authoritarian hellholes?

[Northern Lights]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure why outlawing hitting children is so chilling.

Is it not also forbidden in 58 other countries? Do we think those are all authoritarian hellholes?

Do you two not find the use of language in this way at all concerning? You may not as there are plenty of people living quite happily under more authoritarian regimes throughout the world and you could well be quite pleased at the "Hate Speech Bill" working its way through Holyrood.

For clarity, this is not about whether smacking childrenor adults for that matter is a bad thing or not.

[Jock42]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure that's a good thing...

[dpedin]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure why outlawing hitting children is so chilling.

Is it not also forbidden in 58 other countries? Do we think those are all authoritarian hellholes?

Agreed! Why on earth does anyone think hitting kids and causing physical and mental harm is a good idea? I have no problem with those parents who hit their kids being dealt with by the State.

[dpedin]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure that's a good thing...

You're thinking about Bimbo aren't you?

[Northern Lights]

Me smacking an adult in the puss is forbidden by the state.

I'm not sure why outlawing hitting children is so chilling.

Is it not also forbidden in 58 other countries? Do we think those are all authoritarian hellholes?

Agreed! Why on earth does anyone think hitting kids and causing physical and mental harm is a good idea? I have no problem with those parents who hit their kids being dealt with by the State.

But there are differences, for example in France where it is banned it is a civil offence not a criminal one, which i presume takes into account all sorts of proportionality as in whether it is a smack to beating the shit out of them.

[Tichtheid]

But there are differences, for example in France where it is banned it is a civil offence not a criminal one, which i presume takes into account all sorts of proportionality as in whether it is a smack to beating the shit out of them.

An adult hitting another adult wouldn't be treated as a civil case in Scotland, civil law covers debt or legal disputes etc.

[Northern Lights]

But there are differences, for example in France where it is banned it is a civil offence not a criminal one, which i presume takes into account all sorts of proportionality as in whether it is a smack to beating the shit out of them.

An adult hitting another adult wouldn't be treated as a civil case in Scotland, civil law covers debt or legal disputes etc.

I think you were the first who metioned the other 58 countries and i am just pointing out that there are differences and it is not black and white.

In the same way that a bloke getting a slap in the face from a woman that he has offended in some way is unlikely to make its way through the courts but then who knows with the way things are heading.

[westport]

I never said hitting a child was good thing, it is more what else is going to be added to the list. You only have to look at the hate bill to see the state wanting to control what you say and think.

What is going to be next, cameras in every home, listening in to every phone call and reading every text, just to make sure. Or how about confiscating books. That worked well in a certain country in the 30's.

[Tichtheid]

But there are differences, for example in France where it is banned it is a civil offence not a criminal one, which i presume takes into account all sorts of proportionality as in whether it is a smack to beating the shit out of them.

An adult hitting another adult wouldn't be treated as a civil case in Scotland, civil law covers debt or legal disputes etc.

I think you were the first who metioned the other 58 countries and i am just pointing out that there are differences and it is not black and white.

In the same way that a bloke getting a slap in the face from a woman that he has offended in some way is unlikely to make its way through the courts but then who knows with the way things are heading.

There might be something more up to date but according to an article I've just read France has been criticised for its approach by the UN and the EU. What France did was make it common practice to tell couples at their wedding ceremony that "parental authority is exercised without physical or psychological violence" - and that was it.

[Northern Lights]

An adult hitting another adult wouldn't be treated as a civil case in Scotland, civil law covers debt or legal disputes etc.

I think you were the first who metioned the other 58 countries and i am just pointing out that there are differences and it is not black and white.

In the same way that a bloke getting a slap in the face from a woman that he has offended in some way is unlikely to make its way through the courts but then who knows with the way things are heading.

There might be something more up to date but according to an article I've just read France has been criticised for its approach by the UN and the EU. What France did was make it common practice to tell couples at their wedding ceremony that "parental authority is exercised without physical or psychological violence" - and that was it.

That was an additional bit they added in but not from any UN or EU pressure from what I've been told, it was more as a way of trying to deal with a difficult issue that has proportionality about it.

Edit: Anyway it kind of detracts from my question, are you happy with the language that was used by a government minister?

[Tichtheid]

Edit: Anyway it kind of detracts from my question, are you happy with the language that was used by a government minister?

I honestly don't have a problem with it, given that hitting another adult is forbidden by the state, stealing is forbidden by the state, fraud is forbidden by the state etc etc

I think perhaps people are suffering a bit of confirmation bias on this.

[Northern Lights]

Today's wee scandel, shoddy stuff from our Unis and the SG not putting their foot down.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scot ... 096895_101

Coronavirus in Scotland: Distancing ditched after universities’ frantic lobbying
Mike Wade
Tuesday November 10 2020, 12.01am, The Times
Students at the University of Edinburgh have been among those to protest about online teaching

Intensive lobbying by Scotland’s universities caused ministers to ditch their social distancing policies and allow students to return to campuses despite the risks posed by coronavirus, official documents show.

The policy U-turn ensured universities were able to collect full fees and rents from students, putting “their financial considerations ahead of student, staff and the local community’s safety”, according to academics.

Correspondence obtained through a freedom of information request by The Times shows that a last-minute decision to abandon working online as the default position for students during term-time was linked to the universities’ desire to have the largest possible classes.

At one point during a frantic exchange of emails about in-person class sizes between Universities Scotland, which represents vice-chancellors, and civil servants, Jason Leitch, the national clinical director, put his foot down. “But . . . it will NOT be 70,” he said. Face-to-face teaching was eventually authorised for groups of up to 50.

The policy adopted on September 1 contradicted long-established Scottish government advice on social distancing, and overwrote an earlier draft of guidance, signed off by Nicola Sturgeon on August 30, which insisted “work and study that can be done remotely must be done so”. That wording was dropped from the publication Coronavirus (Covid-19): Guidance for universities, colleges and student accommodation providers after objections by Universities Scotland. A further tough statement in the draft document agreed by the first minister on August 30, saying that “working remotely should be the default position”, was similarly removed within 48 hours.

Alastair Sim, director of Universities Scotland, had complained that aspects of the draft guidance “sound more restrictive on in-person teaching than I recall”. David Lott, deputy director, suggested the line “work and study that can be done remotely must be done so” be replaced by a line saying the appropriate blend was up to institutions.

The relaxation of the rules allowed tens of thousands of students to move around the country to take up places in halls from the end of September. A wave of coronavirus outbreaks followed in halls in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee and Aberdeen, forcing tens of thousands of students to self-isolate.

The policy switch led to accusations that first-year students were subjected to an “experiment in herd immunity” by universities who feared financial catastrophe if rents were slashed.

After The Times raised the issue, the government reverted to a stricter policy on social distancing when its Covid-19 framework strategy said that “restricted blended” learning should be the norm for universities in Level 3 and 4 locations.

Carlo Morelli, Scotland president of the University and College Union, said: “The Scottish government should have resisted pressures from the universities who were putting their financial considerations ahead of student, staff and the local community’s safety.”

Mary Senior, UCU’s Scotland official, said it was “equally problematic” that “we don’t yet have clarity on what we mean by ‘restricted blended’ learning”. She added: “Universities in the Level 2 and 3 areas should not be delivering in-person teaching or student support where it’s possible to do that online.”

The Scottish government said the draft guidance on August 30 made clear that face-to-face teaching was always part of the plan and set out the health measures institutions should follow.

A spokesman for Universities Scotland said: “We have consistently made the case for the benefits to students of in-person provision as part of the blended learning model provided for in Phase 3 of the Scottish government’s coronavirus route map. We believe this is important to students’ learning, welfare and mental wellbeing. The Scottish government’s guidance for higher education places strict requirements on higher education institutions for the safety of in-person provision, including 2m physical distancing.”

[Northern Lights]

As there was a lively discussion a page or so back on our test and trace system, this is pretty topical, it's not working as it should either. I can just imagine the spittle-flecked rage if this had happen down South.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54903038

Covid in Scotland: Concern over Test and Protect 'coding error'
Published2 hours ago
Related Topics
Coronavirus pandemic
coronavirus testing
IMAGE COPYRIGHTGETTY IMAGES
A "coding error" led to contact tracing staff in Scotland overestimating the number of people contacted within 24 hours of testing positive for Covid.

Corrected data shows that in some weeks Test and Protect staff failed to contact about half of positive Covid cases in Scotland within that time.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the mistake should not have happened.

But she insisted the Test and Protect system was working to a "very high standard".

Opposition politicians said the error was shocking and called for answers and reassurance.

The Scottish Sun reported that Public Health Scotland revised up the overall number of positive cases waiting more than a day to be interviewed from 8,262 to 15,291.

Meanwhile, contact tracing cases taking more than 24 hours to complete rose from 17,225 to 23,828.

Tougher restrictions for three council areas
Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross said: "To discover the SNP government has been peddling wildly inaccurate data to the public is shocking. We need answers and reassurance on this as a matter of urgency."

Scottish Labour health spokeswoman Monica Lennon said: "After months of claiming that Test and Protect was working well it is now clear that the system was performing even worse than previously indicated."

'Suspect statistics'
Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie called for an urgent statement to the Scottish Parliament on how the "suspect statistics" were published.

And Scottish Greens health spokeswoman Alison Johnstone said: "Test and trace is absolutely key to reducing the spread of this deadly virus and providing a route out of endless lockdowns. It cannot do that if it isn't working or the data isn't robust."

Corrected PHS data shows that in five of eight weeks in September and October, Test and Protect staff failed to contact about half of positive cases within 24 hours of being notified of swab results, or within a day of the Test and Protect system being notified.

In one of the eight weeks the proportion of people with positive swabs alerted within 24 hours of Test and Protect being told dropped as low as 41.7%.

Ms Sturgeon told her daily briefing there had been a "coding error" in how PHS classified cases.

"Without going into technical detail it means some cases classed as processed within 0 to 24 hours should have fallen within the 24 to 48 hours," she said.

The first minister said: "The coding error should not have happened. These things do happen in computer systems sometimes. It has been rectified but the figures published today demonstrate that it is working to a very high standard."

The latest figures show that 60.5% of positive cases were contacted within 24 hours, she said.

Ms Sturgeon said the World Health Organisation states that at least 80% of new cases must have their close contacts traced and quarantined within 72 hours of case confirmation.

The latest figures for Scotland show it is in excess of this international standard, with 95.8% completed in that time.

Public Health Scotland said the coding error had not affected any strategic or operational decision-making on the contact tracing programme.

[tc27]

As there was a lively discussion a page or so back on our test and trace system, this is pretty topical, it's not working as it should either. I can just imagine the spittle-flecked rage if this had happen down South.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54903038

I was going to post about this.

Not to labour the point - clearly 'elimination' was nowhere close to being achieved but the fact that the T&T system that would be a clear pillar of this policy was not working properly for so long makes arguing that it was even more untenable.

Secondly the defence that the WHO target is now being exceeded (too late to stop a second wave) is also fairly cynical spin:

[Northern Lights]

As there was a lively discussion a page or so back on our test and trace system, this is pretty topical, it's not working as it should either. I can just imagine the spittle-flecked rage if this had happen down South.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54903038

I was going to post about this.

Not to labour the point - clearly 'elimination' was nowhere close to being achieved but the fact that the T&T system that would be a clear pillar of this policy was not working properly for so long makes arguing that it was even more untenable.

Secondly the defence that the WHO target is now being exceeded (too late to stop a second wave) is also fairly cynical spin:

Calamity John Swinney also the one that was wheeled out to defend this on front of the media, he really does get all the shit jobs.


In other news i see Fabiani hit out at "delay, prevarication and obfuscation" by key players involved in the inquiry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54917952

This after Sturgeon told parliment she had nothing to hide and would cooperate fully, not so much Nicola, not so much.

Pretty poor state of affairs all round, also doesnt get the media coverage it should either with circus around Boris still dominating the big channels.

[Slick]

Oh Boris.

I'd imagine it was a fairly innocuous comment in a wider discussion but by god is this going to be played for all its worth:

Boris Johnson has come under fire for reportedly telling a virtual meeting of Conservative MPs that devolution had been a "disaster" in Scotland.

Mr Johnson also reportedly described it as predecessor Tony Blair's "biggest mistake".

The SNP and Labour have both criticised Mr Johnson.

But government sources suggested the prime minister had been making "more of a reference" to the SNP's running of Scotland than devolution in general.

Mr Johnson was in a Zoom meeting with Tory MPs representing dozens of seats in northern England on Monday when he is said to have made the remarks.

The Sun newspaper reported the PM had told the MPs "devolution has been a disaster north of the border".

[Biffer]

Oh Boris.

I'd imagine it was a fairly innocuous comment in a wider discussion but by god is this going to be played for all its worth:

Boris Johnson has come under fire for reportedly telling a virtual meeting of Conservative MPs that devolution had been a "disaster" in Scotland.

Mr Johnson also reportedly described it as predecessor Tony Blair's "biggest mistake".

The SNP and Labour have both criticised Mr Johnson.

But government sources suggested the prime minister had been making "more of a reference" to the SNP's running of Scotland than devolution in general.

Mr Johnson was in a Zoom meeting with Tory MPs representing dozens of seats in northern England on Monday when he is said to have made the remarks.

The Sun newspaper reported the PM had told the MPs "devolution has been a disaster north of the border".

It’s been a disaster for the Tories, certainly.

[clydecloggie]

Oh Boris.

I'd imagine it was a fairly innocuous comment in a wider discussion but by god is this going to be played for all its worth:

Boris Johnson has come under fire for reportedly telling a virtual meeting of Conservative MPs that devolution had been a "disaster" in Scotland.

Mr Johnson also reportedly described it as predecessor Tony Blair's "biggest mistake".

The SNP and Labour have both criticised Mr Johnson.

But government sources suggested the prime minister had been making "more of a reference" to the SNP's running of Scotland than devolution in general.

Mr Johnson was in a Zoom meeting with Tory MPs representing dozens of seats in northern England on Monday when he is said to have made the remarks.

The Sun newspaper reported the PM had told the MPs "devolution has been a disaster north of the border".

It’s been a disaster for the Tories, certainly.

Has it? It's wiped out Labour in Scotland, surely that's a big bonus for the Tories. They themselves still have the support of around 20% of the electorate which is decent going for the party that gave us Thatcher.

Presumably he wasn't talking about the quality of governance as a) he's not qualified to judge that and b) probably couldn't care less what happens to the people of Scotland.

[Longshanks]

Scottish devolution has been divisive that's for sure

[clydecloggie]

Scottish devolution has been divisive that's for sure

"Divisive". Don't have an opinion unless you have power. Know your place.

[Paddington Bear]

Pretty arguable case for a Unionist to make that devolution has been a bad thing, no?

[clydecloggie]

Pretty arguable case for a Unionist to make that devolution has been a bad thing, no?

But Johnson is no Unionist. He's an English Tory. I think the only Tory Unionists left are Scottish Tories. And possibly Welsh, if they exist.

[Paddington Bear]

Pretty arguable case for a Unionist to make that devolution has been a bad thing, no?

But Johnson is no Unionist. He's an English Tory. I think the only Tory Unionists left are Scottish Tories. And possibly Welsh, if they exist.

A Unionist who doesn't understand Scotland, sure, but there's little evidence despite it being regularly claimed that there is any real support in the Tory party for ending the Union.

[Slick]

Pretty arguable case for a Unionist to make that devolution has been a bad thing, no?

But Johnson is no Unionist. He's an English Tory. I think the only Tory Unionists left are Scottish Tories. And possibly Welsh, if they exist.

A Unionist who doesn't understand Scotland, sure, but there's little evidence despite it being regularly claimed that there is any real support in the Tory party for ending the Union.

My own view on that is that it's only because they don't want to be the ones going down in history as the folk that ended the Union. I don't think there is any real love of the Union - exacerbated by the constant fucking whinging from the SNP/SG of course, but nonetheless.

[Paddington Bear]

But Johnson is no Unionist. He's an English Tory. I think the only Tory Unionists left are Scottish Tories. And possibly Welsh, if they exist.

A Unionist who doesn't understand Scotland, sure, but there's little evidence despite it being regularly claimed that there is any real support in the Tory party for ending the Union.

My own view on that is that it's only because they don't want to be the ones going down in history as the folk that ended the Union. I don't think there is any real love of the Union - exacerbated by the constant fucking whinging from the SNP/SG of course, but nonetheless.

Certainly a factor. I think there's a 'soft' British identity in England where people identify to a large extent with the institutions, the Union Jack etc and there is probably a strong correlation between that and voting Tory.

[Bimbowomxn]

Devolution was the full and final answer to the independence movement and Blair thought it would finish the demands. All it did was embolden the movement and the set up (Blair’s government design) has been easy for the SNP to exploit for full independence being deemed a pain free option for the Scots.

It clearly failed.

[Tichtheid]

Colour me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if this "innocuous comment" was either deliberate or is being played for all it's worth as a diversion, "oh look an owl" type of thing, when the focus should be on the clown car Brexit negotiations.

[Caley_Red]

The last 10 years of devolved government have undoubtedly been a disaster for the Scottish education system, no doubt about that.

[Longshanks]

Devolution was the full and final answer to the independence movement and Blair thought it would finish the demands. All it did was embolden the movement and the set up (Blair’s government design) has been easy for the SNP to exploit for full independence being deemed a pain free option for the Scots.

It clearly failed.

I think that's fairly accurate
The "disaster" is that it has made the break up the union more likely.
However, imo jocks can do whatever they want.
SNP are the Scottish version of UKIP though.

[Biffer]

Devolution was the full and final answer to the independence movement and Blair thought it would finish the demands. All it did was embolden the movement and the set up (Blair’s government design) has been easy for the SNP to exploit for full independence being deemed a pain free option for the Scots.

It clearly failed.

I think that's fairly accurate
The "disaster" is that it has made the break up the union more likely.
However, imo jocks can do whatever they want.
SNP are the Scottish version of UKIP though.

C'mon, don't engage with that prick on this thread, he'll only pollute it with shit, badly informed takes from the fringes of the internet.

[Biffer]

Scottish devolution has been divisive that's for sure

Blaming the division on devolution is just a front. The UK is divided on many things, and it's not the act of them being expressed that causes the divisions.

[dpedin]

Scottish devolution has been divisive that's for sure

Blaming the division on devolution is just a front. The UK is divided on many things, and it's not the act of them being expressed that causes the divisions.

Hang on a minute, last time I looked the majority of folk in Scotland voted for the SNP in both the UK and the Scottish elections! Are they all separatists and nationalists then? Should the UK Gov reverse devolution because the Scots don't vote for the right people? Scots voted for a devolved parliament. Is Boris really saying that the UK Gov should have ignored the Scots, not 'allowed' them to have a devolved parliament and to just shut up and be happy being ruled by the previous centralised, English dominated Gov? All sounds very imperialist to me! This really reflects a19th century, little england mentality to me. Genie is out the bottle guys, better learn how to lead on a more collaborative and shared basis, otherwise your empire, for what its worth, will end up very, very small indeed!

[Bimbowomxn]

Devolution was the full and final answer to the independence movement and Blair thought it would finish the demands. All it did was embolden the movement and the set up (Blair’s government design) has been easy for the SNP to exploit for full independence being deemed a pain free option for the Scots.

It clearly failed.

I think that's fairly accurate
The "disaster" is that it has made the break up the union more likely.
However, imo jocks can do whatever they want.
SNP are the Scottish version of UKIP though.

Oh, I agree the ball is rolling and post the EU vote considerably more valid. The union also cannot be held together by force.

However the idea that English politicians will allow more impoverishment in England to allow for a less painful separation of Scotland is for the birds, like the EU being forced to be hard with the UK , the remaining parliament will have to give nothing to the Scots on departure, proper debt repayments, no currency union and the subsequent pain.

Oh and Biffer ....

[Hal Jordan]

Colour me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if this "innocuous comment" was either deliberate or is being played for all it's worth as a diversion, "oh look an owl" type of thing, when the focus should be on the clown car Brexit negotiations.

That dog has a puffy tail!

[Biffer]

Colour me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if this "innocuous comment" was either deliberate or is being played for all it's worth as a diversion, "oh look an owl" type of thing, when the focus should be on the clown car Brexit negotiations.

That dog has a puffy tail!

[GogLais]

Not for me to comment whether or not it's been a disaster for Scotland. However, we've ended with a situation where the PM of the UK is effectively acting as a stand-alone England PM as well. The four nations thing doesn't work when one of the four is so much larger than the other three. Devolution needs some sort of regional government for England as well but there's no public enthusiasm for another layer of government so we'll muddle along as we are.

[Biffer]

Not for me to comment whether or not it's been a disaster for Scotland. However, we've ended with a situation where the PM of the UK is effectively acting as a stand-alone England PM as well. The four nations thing doesn't work when one of the four is so much larger than the other three. Devolution needs some sort of regional government for England as well but there's no public enthusiasm for another layer of government so we'll muddle along as we are.

The rest of us might just fix that for England before too long.