Oceans Apart: Greed, Betrayal and Pacific Rugby

[Tichtheid]

A documentary made by Dan Leo, currently on Amazon video.

This is a must-see film for anyone interested in the development of the sport

[Slick]

It's good then?

I saw a report about it but felt the journo was being a bit non committal about whether it was a good watch or not.

[Carter's Choice]

The current system is a farce. Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are required to tour the NH nations every year, and earn these nations millions of dollars in TV and ticket revenue whilst the PI players rack up personal debts and sleep in bug-infested backpacker hostels. It's modern day indentured labour.

Nothing will ever change because the nations that have the votes on the WR board are the ones the benefit from the current system. Rugby treats the PI nations like shit, and does so arrogantly and smugly.

[Slick]

The current system is a farce. Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are required to tour the NH nations every year, and earn these nations millions of dollars in TV and ticket revenue whilst the PI players rack up personal debts and sleep in bug-infested backpacker hostels. It's modern day indentured labour.

Nothing will ever change because the nations that have the votes on the WR board are the ones the benefit from the current system. Rugby treats the PI nations like shit, and does so arrogantly and smugly.

Can't disagree with any of that - apart from I'd add that the SH nations do fuck all as well. The madness is that everyone in WR talks about growing the game and finding new audiences whilst ignoring, what I think, is the best way to do it. Neutral sports fans watching a Fiji side throwing the ball about, or a Samoa side smashing everyone on their path is a much bigger turn on than watching Ireland score about try from a metre out. Throw money at the PI's and that will improve our overall game immeasurably

[Glaston]

Is there mention of the $250k Fiji had to pay to the NZRFU to get the Maori team to play a game in Fiji?


Should add, Fiji team are currently in a 4 star motel near St Etienne
When they come to Twickenham they certainly arent in any backpackers.

[Carter's Choice]

The current system is a farce. Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are required to tour the NH nations every year, and earn these nations millions of dollars in TV and ticket revenue whilst the PI players rack up personal debts and sleep in bug-infested backpacker hostels. It's modern day indentured labour.

Nothing will ever change because the nations that have the votes on the WR board are the ones the benefit from the current system. Rugby treats the PI nations like shit, and does so arrogantly and smugly.

Can't disagree with any of that - apart from I'd add that the SH nations do fuck all as well.

I agree, but at least the SH nations play them so rarely that you couldn't accuse them of profiting from the PI's,

[Slick]

The current system is a farce. Tonga, Samoa and Fiji are required to tour the NH nations every year, and earn these nations millions of dollars in TV and ticket revenue whilst the PI players rack up personal debts and sleep in bug-infested backpacker hostels. It's modern day indentured labour.

Nothing will ever change because the nations that have the votes on the WR board are the ones the benefit from the current system. Rugby treats the PI nations like shit, and does so arrogantly and smugly.

Can't disagree with any of that - apart from I'd add that the SH nations do fuck all as well.

I agree, but at least the SH nations play them so rarely that you couldn't accuse them of profiting from the PI's,

[Tichtheid]

It's good then?

I saw a report about it but felt the journo was being a bit non committal about whether it was a good watch or not.

I’d say it is essential viewing, some of the issues it raises have been mentioned, the Samoa team had to busk outside a restaurant in Edinburgh to pay for a team meal. Scotland have been the only team from tier 1 to play in Apia, but ticket prices have to be so low, the Samoan players didn’t make any money from it.

Host nations keep all the gate money from PI games with no return fixtures.

Rugby League allows players to return to “home nations” after playing for richer countries, World Rugby has ignored calls to allow the same in Union, despite the likes of Frank Bunce having done this previously.

Brett Gosper CEO of World Rugby laughed in Leo’s face when he asked about the possibility of one nation, one vote.

[Hugo]

It's good then?

I saw a report about it but felt the journo was being a bit non committal about whether it was a good watch or not.

Rugby League allows players to return to “home nations” after playing for richer countries, World Rugby has ignored calls to allow the same in Union, despite the likes of Frank Bunce having done this previously.

I know what you are getting at but I think Bunce did the opposite of that. New Zealand born but poached by Western Samoa (even though I don't think he had much in the way of Samoan blood) because he had been overlooked by NZ. Once the NZRU saw the error of their ways he was brought into the All Black side pronto.

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

[Tichtheid]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

I was of a similar mind, but the film changed my opinion, the point made was along the lines of these players have enhanced the Tier 1 sides, they still have a lot to offer in terms of playing and bringing a professional environment to their "home" nations once they have stopped playing for those sides.

If World Rugby was serious about growing the game they would be helping the PI countries pick players who would be eligible for them in Rugby League, or if it weren't for the necessity of economic migration from parents etc.
One of the points raised was something I actually knew before, Tongan school kids are being offered contracts to play in Japan, but have to commit to only playing for Japan.

You were correct in that I mixed up the direction of travel of Frank Bunce, what we are really talking about is when a player is finished with a big rugby side being able to help a struggling team, like when John Allan moved to play for South Africa having won nine caps for Scotland, the poaching bastards.

[Carter's Choice]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

Given our sport has a grandparent rule, and a 3 year residency rule, we are in no position whatsoever to talk about credibility. Players like James Lowe and Bundee Aki were lured to the NH with the promise of a future test jersey as an additional incentive to their club salary. Countries are effectively buying test teams. How is the credible?

[mrbrownstone]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

1/3rd of Ireland's starting XV for this weekend qualified on residency. Brendon Paenga-Amosa grew up an All Blacks fan: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/08/0 ... sa-feature. Tyrel Lomax was born in Canberra and played 10 times for the Aussie U20s. Credibility is already well and truly out the window.

Would anyone really begrudge Charles Piatau & Malakai Fekitoa turning out for Tonga, Waisake Naholo playing for Fiji, or Lima Sopoaga playing for Samoa, rather than being lost to the international game completely?

I don't think you should be able to go back and forth (i.e. one switch and that's it), and I think there should be a minimum stand down period when switching, but otherwise I'd like to see it introduced.

[Hugo]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

1/3rd of Ireland's starting XV for this weekend qualified on residency. Brendon Paenga-Amosa grew up an All Blacks fan: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/08/0 ... sa-feature. Tyrel Lomax was born in Canberra and played 10 times for the Aussie U20s. Credibility is already well and truly out the window.

Would anyone really begrudge Charles Piatau & Malakai Fekitoa turning out for Tonga, Waisake Naholo playing for Fiji, or Lima Sopoaga playing for Samoa, rather than being lost to the international game completely?

I don't think you should be able to go back and forth (i.e. one switch and that's it), and I think there should be a minimum stand down period when switching, but otherwise I'd like to see it introduced.

I'm not in favour of residential qualification either. It makes international rugby into a joke.

[Sandstorm]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

1/3rd of Ireland's starting XV for this weekend qualified on residency. Brendon Paenga-Amosa grew up an All Blacks fan: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/08/0 ... sa-feature. Tyrel Lomax was born in Canberra and played 10 times for the Aussie U20s. Credibility is already well and truly out the window.

Would anyone really begrudge Charles Piatau & Malakai Fekitoa turning out for Tonga, Waisake Naholo playing for Fiji, or Lima Sopoaga playing for Samoa, rather than being lost to the international game completely?

I don't think you should be able to go back and forth (i.e. one switch and that's it), and I think there should be a minimum stand down period when switching, but otherwise I'd like to see it introduced.

Agree 100%. 5 years in the wilderness should be the same as resident qualification. You should be able to turn out for your PI nation afterwards. That’s how you Grow the Game.

[Denny Crane]

A documentary made by Dan Leo, currently on Amazon video.

This is a must-see film for anyone interested in the development of the sport

Dan's film highlights so much more than the stunted development of the sport. I would find it appalling were it not evident in so many societal aspects of the developed world. Instead, I'm more surprised to find i it barely registered more than a dozen posts here before slipping meekly onto the third page of threads, supressed by far more inportant topics such as ....... well, take a look at what fills the first pages. That's no criricism of this place or the posters, it's just indicative of what Dan is up against even in forums where people who obviously love the game have the power of free expression. What chance does he have to make a difference if those who are aware of the significance let his efforts drift into irrelevance?

how does it go? All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing?

If ever there was a genuine candidate for a sticky thread on a rugby forum, would this not be it?

[sockwithaticket]

Personally I think once a player is capped they should be irreversibly tied to that country. I understand the arguments against this but I think that it undermines the credibility of the sport to have players transferring from one country to another.

1/3rd of Ireland's starting XV for this weekend qualified on residency. Brendon Paenga-Amosa grew up an All Blacks fan: https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2018/08/0 ... sa-feature. Tyrel Lomax was born in Canberra and played 10 times for the Aussie U20s. Credibility is already well and truly out the window.

Would anyone really begrudge Charles Piatau & Malakai Fekitoa turning out for Tonga, Waisake Naholo playing for Fiji, or Lima Sopoaga playing for Samoa, rather than being lost to the international game completely?

I don't think you should be able to go back and forth (i.e. one switch and that's it), and I think there should be a minimum stand down period when switching, but otherwise I'd like to see it introduced.

Their employers. The family members they support with their wages.

A lot of the value they can command is being All Black calibre players (albeit not necessarily front liners) available for the whole season. It might help the nation where their roots are on the international stage, but these guys personally would be looking at much lower salary offers if they were to become eligible again.