Argentina rugby suspends captain

[laurent]

No. No, it would not.

[/Geo Cronje]

Given the scale of support for the National Front in France, I would say that France has a far greater number of white racists than South Africa does.

Torque is in England :P

[FalseBayFC]

The National Front received 4,712,461 votes in the 2014 European Parliament election. You guys in France also have a massive problem with racism it seems.

[FalseBayFC]

[/Geo Cronje]

Given the scale of support for the National Front in France, I would say that France has a far greater number of white racists than South Africa does.

Torque is in England :P

Home of Prince Philip, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson. I rest my case. Torq, you have very little room to speak it seems.

[Fonz]

Those Maradona fans don't muck around. I thought Matera was half native indian or something? I guess not. Quite racist comments and brings dishonour to his team and the sport of rugby in Argentina.

Highly unlikely. Argentina is one of the whitest countries you'll find.

[Fonz]

It’s a bit of a non news event, plenty of people have that sort of view when they first visit South Africa and see a whole new level of type of black person.

This is why I find it amusing that people always seem to assume that going out into the world/meeting new types of people makes you less prejudiced rather than more. Does probably explain why so many right-thinking types have such patronizing attitudes towards minorities -- without it they'd be card-carrying Klansmen.

[Torquemada 1420]

Given the scale of support for the National Front in France, I would say that France has a far greater number of white racists than South Africa does.

Given that less than 10% of SA's population is white, that would hardly be a surprise.

[Torquemada 1420]

Too highlight how complicated this has all become

Sale in racism storm after EIGHT of their South African stars did not take knee
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... atter.html

All the Quins players took the knee and all the SA contingent for Sale did not.

Spoiler

Show

What is not widely known is that Lood de Jager has an adopted black child, so I think it's unlikely he is a racist safa.

[JM2K6]

It wasn't that complicated. Before and after the game, both sides and the broadcaster were at pains to explain that it was personal choice and that both sides supported the cause, not kneeling did not mean that, and referenced the south africans directly.

The scumbag paper chose to ignore all that to fan the flames of a culture war because of course they did.

[Lemoentjie]

Matera is hardly Aryan himself, does he not realise that north European racists would view him the same way that he views South American Indians? It would be very sad if in South America they have an Asian-style competition over whose skin is the whitest. Who gives a fok

[Woddy]

Matera is hardly Aryan himself, does he not realise that north European racists would view him the same way that he views South American Indians? It would be very sad if in South America they have an Asian-style competition over whose skin is the whitest. Who gives a fok

In a sense they do already, certainly in Chile where I used to live but I believe the general notion is similar over large parts of South and Central America.

In Chile, no more than 10% of the population is pure indigenous, and no more than 20% descended purely from European stock. Yet ask the remaining mestizo 70% what they are and the majority would claim to be "white" rather than mixed. At least, that was the case 20 odd years ago. It may have changed.

[Torquemada 1420]

It wasn't that complicated. Before and after the game, both sides and the broadcaster were at pains to explain that it was personal choice and that both sides supported the cause, not kneeling did not mean that, and referenced the south africans directly.

The scumbag paper chose to ignore all that to fan the flames of a culture war because of course they did.

It is that complicated though, isn't it?
a) That was not the only paper to report it that way.
b) No-one bothered to look deeper: how many can honestly say they knew Lood had a brown baby or bothered to read Yarde's comments on the matter?
c) Apparently some of the players received death threats
d) The SA Sports Minister waded in calling for "action against the players" (maybe c and d should be the other way round in term of cause and effect)

The need to conform is overriding bona fide free choice.

[JM2K6]

It wasn't that complicated. Before and after the game, both sides and the broadcaster were at pains to explain that it was personal choice and that both sides supported the cause, not kneeling did not mean that, and referenced the south africans directly.

The scumbag paper chose to ignore all that to fan the flames of a culture war because of course they did.

It is that complicated though, isn't it?
a) That was not the only paper to report it that way.
b) No-one bothered to look deeper: how many can honestly say they knew Lood had a brown baby or bothered to read Yarde's comments on the matter?
c) Apparently some of the players received death threats
d) The SA Sports Minister waded in calling for "action against the players" (maybe c and d should be the other way round in term of cause and effect)

The need to conform is overriding bona fide free choice.

Well, anyone watching the broadcast would've known b). The players received death threats from SA, I believe, where again it was used as a political football having been deliberately stripped of context, so yes c) and d) are specifically comments about South Africa itself.

I'm sure we have worse papers than the Mail, that's a given. None of them actually give a flying fuck about anything except manufacturing outrage and stoking the flames, but that doesn't mean the situation is complicated, it means that bottom-feeding scum will profit no matter what you do.

[OomStruisbaai]

RC will never survive without South Africa.

[Torquemada 1420]

Well, anyone watching the broadcast would've known b). The players received death threats from SA, I believe, where again it was used as a political football having been deliberately stripped of context, so yes c) and d) are specifically comments about South Africa itself.

I'm sure we have worse papers than the Mail, that's a given. None of them actually give a flying fuck about anything except manufacturing outrage and stoking the flames, but that doesn't mean the situation is complicated, it means that bottom-feeding scum will profit no matter what you do.

The circulation size of said publications alone means anytime they make a pronouncement, the ripples of complication spread quickly and strongly. Which one is worse than the Mail BTW?

With due respect to Quins/Sale and the size of BT's subscriber base, I would not think the nos who watched the game would be a rounding error on the above nos.

[Hal Jordan]

We prefer to use the term "statistically insignificant".

[Uncle fester]

Initially I thought, "oh lovely, super precious kevball fans causing havoc" but then I read what he said.

The super precious fans deserves a closer look though.

[JM2K6]

Well, anyone watching the broadcast would've known b). The players received death threats from SA, I believe, where again it was used as a political football having been deliberately stripped of context, so yes c) and d) are specifically comments about South Africa itself.

I'm sure we have worse papers than the Mail, that's a given. None of them actually give a flying fuck about anything except manufacturing outrage and stoking the flames, but that doesn't mean the situation is complicated, it means that bottom-feeding scum will profit no matter what you do.

The circulation size of said publications alone means anytime they make a pronouncement, the ripples of complication spread quickly and strongly. Which one is worse than the Mail BTW?

With due respect to Quins/Sale and the size of BT's subscriber base, I would not think the nos who watched the game would be a rounding error on the above nos.

Worse than the mail? The Express? The Sun, sometimes?

Everything is "complicated" if the problem is rewritten as "it doesn't matter what you do, certain portions of the media will twist it in order to further their interests and stoke the flames of a culture war". Inaction is the same as action in that case.

Even if it was widely known about Lood de Jager, the Mail's omission would mean a lot of people who don't follow rugby would still be being misled.

[Marylandolorian]

Blessed are we who did our growing up in private.

+ 1 000 000

+1
He who is without sin can cast the first stone

Guido Petti plays for Bordeaux (UBB) and his roommate is Joseph Dweba. Doesn't look like a racist to me, more like a teenager moment of stupidity.

[Torquemada 1420]

Well, anyone watching the broadcast would've known b). The players received death threats from SA, I believe, where again it was used as a political football having been deliberately stripped of context, so yes c) and d) are specifically comments about South Africa itself.

I'm sure we have worse papers than the Mail, that's a given. None of them actually give a flying fuck about anything except manufacturing outrage and stoking the flames, but that doesn't mean the situation is complicated, it means that bottom-feeding scum will profit no matter what you do.

The circulation size of said publications alone means anytime they make a pronouncement, the ripples of complication spread quickly and strongly. Which one is worse than the Mail BTW?

With due respect to Quins/Sale and the size of BT's subscriber base, I would not think the nos who watched the game would be a rounding error on the above nos.

Worse than the mail? The Express? The Sun, sometimes?

Everything is "complicated" if the problem is rewritten as "it doesn't matter what you do, certain portions of the media will twist it in order to further their interests and stoke the flames of a culture war". Inaction is the same as action in that case.

Even if it was widely known about Lood de Jager, the Mail's omission would mean a lot of people who don't follow rugby would still be being misled.

And an audience seeking to be enraged or offended.

[JM2K6]

The circulation size of said publications alone means anytime they make a pronouncement, the ripples of complication spread quickly and strongly. Which one is worse than the Mail BTW?

With due respect to Quins/Sale and the size of BT's subscriber base, I would not think the nos who watched the game would be a rounding error on the above nos.

Worse than the mail? The Express? The Sun, sometimes?

Everything is "complicated" if the problem is rewritten as "it doesn't matter what you do, certain portions of the media will twist it in order to further their interests and stoke the flames of a culture war". Inaction is the same as action in that case.

Even if it was widely known about Lood de Jager, the Mail's omission would mean a lot of people who don't follow rugby would still be being misled.

And an audience seeking to be enraged or offended.

Although probably not the audience that so frequently gets accused of this, given the Daily Mail's readership.

[stemoc]

Matera re-instated as captain so likely to play....

[Hugo]

In addition to the casual racism it sounds like this situation has a lot to do with social class tensions.

I think Maradona was mixed race but identified moreso as an indigenous Argentine and of course he grew up in poverty. I can imagine the upper crust types in Argentina not being too enamoured with a darker skinned street urchin type of character.

[Slick]

Matera re-instated as captain so likely to play....

Well I suppose it's nice to see an organisation be strong enough to make their own decisions rather than be swayed by social media. Doesn't sit quite right with me but all for them finding a path back.

[Ymx]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/rugby-union/55170028

Matera, Guido Petti and Santiago Socino were suspended on Tuesday for posts made between 2011 and 2013.

But the Argentine Rugby Union (UAR) now says such measures were "unnecessary".

It said the players' apologies and good behaviour in the years since meant their suspensions could be lifted.

"The preventive measures are unnecessary so we have resolved to lift the suspension of the three players and reinstate the captaincy to Pablo Matera," the UAR said in a statement.

"The disciplinary process continues and the commission will arrive at a final resolution in the next few days."

Flanker Matera, lock Petti and hooker Socino had their social media accounts closed on Tuesday but screenshots of historical posts which disparaged black people and people from other South American nations circulated widely.

The UAR said the posts were "imprudent and immature".

Their discovery had followed criticism of the team for not doing enough to mark the death of Argentina football legend Diego Maradona before their defeat against New Zealand on Saturday.

The trio have not been named in the Pumas' squad this Saturday's Test against Australia to protect them after they received "a lot of hate" since the posts were discovered, said Argentina head coach Mario Ledesma.

"All I can say about these three fine players and great men is that they are great human beings," he said.

"They have been suffering a lot this week, their families have been suffering a lot this week, and it's really sad to see. Obviously they acknowledge what they did and they are really regretful and ashamed of what they did, and we all are."

Matera, 27, who plays his club rugby for Stade Francais, has won 69 caps and led his side to a famous victory over New Zealand on 14 November.

"I can say they are not the same people they were when they were 17, 18 years old," added Ledesma.

"They are great men, family men, Pablo has a kid now, he's a great leader and a great example."

[Jerome_Kaino]

I think this is the right approach from the AUR,
Those tweets were probably meant to be funny by young ignorant men.
I don't know much about the sense of humour in Argentina but I know that not everywhere it is as politically correct as in UK/USA, especially 10 years ago.

Still the things said were totally unacceptable and they deserve a punishment.
With the public backslash and them missing the last test, I think it's all ok after this apology.
No need to end someone's career over this though.
Hopefully we won't hear anything about this again and everyone can go on with their lives.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think this is the right approach from the AUR,
Those tweets were probably meant to be funny by young ignorant men.
I don't know much about the sense of humour in Argentina but I know that not everywhere it is as politically correct as in UK/USA, especially 10 years ago.

Still the things said were totally unacceptable and they deserve a punishment.
With the public backslash and them missing the last test, I think it's all ok after this apology.
No need to end someone's career over this though.
Hopefully we won't hear anything about this again and everyone can go on with their lives.

[Openside]

Blessed are we who did our growing up in private.

+ 1 000 000

+ another

[Carfer]

He is going to kak when he plays the Springboks again.

To this type of "niggers" he refers



The tweet is from May 30, 2012, four days before Argentina's first game in the U20 tournament in South Africa, ergo, he was leaving Argentina, not coming back. The " negros " he refers to are immigrants from neighboring countries who surround the more affluent residential areas of Buenos Aires. This is not a racist comment, it is a xenophobic comment, in fact, the UAR uses that word in its statement.

[handyman]

He is going to kak when he plays the Springboks again.

To this type of "niggers" he refers



The tweet is from May 30, 2012, four days before Argentina's first game in the U20 tournament in South Africa, ergo, he was leaving Argentina, not coming back. The " negros " he refers to are immigrants from neighboring countries who surround the more affluent residential areas of Buenos Aires. This is not a racist comment, it is a xenophobic comment, in fact, the UAR uses that word in its statement.

[Ymx]

What does the UAR statement say? Is there a copy? Translated?

[Carfer]

What does the UAR statement say? Is there a copy? Translated?

https://uar.com.ar/2020/12/03/comunicado-oficial-4/

Primer comunicado

La Unión Argentina de Rugby repudia enérgicamente los comentarios discriminatorios y xenófobos publicados por integrantes del plantel de Los Pumas en las redes sociales y reunida en carácter de urgencia, la Mesa Directiva resuelve:

En primer lugar, revocar la capitanía de Pablo Matera y solicitar al staff que proponga a la Mesa Directiva un nuevo capitán.

En segundo lugar, suspender a Pablo Matera, a Guido Petti y a Santiago Socino del seleccionado nacional hasta tanto se defina su situación disciplinaria.

En tercer lugar, iniciar un proceso disciplinario a los tres jugadores mencionados, a cargo de la Comisión de Disciplina de la Unión Argentina de Rugby.

Si bien los mensajes fueron expresados entre 2011 y 2013 y no representan la integridad como personas que los tres mostraron durante este tiempo en Los Pumas, desde la Unión Argentina de Rugby condenamos cualquier expresión de odio y consideramos inaceptable que quienes las expresen, representen a nuestro país.

30.11.2020

Segundo comunicado

Como es de público conocimiento, la Unión Argentina de Rugby intervino de urgencia y en plena competencia para tomar medidas relacionadas con la publicación en las redes de distintas expresiones de los jugadores Pablo Nicolás Matera, Guido Petti Pagadizabal y Santiago Gabriel Socino.

De acuerdo con los procedimientos de World Rugby, que contempla el tratamiento urgente ante eventuales circunstancias durante un torneo, la Comisión de Disciplina de la Unión Argentina de Rugby citó a declarar este miércoles a los jugadores Pablo Nicolás Matera, Guido Petti Pagadizabal y Santiago Gabriel Socino, tal como lo había solicitado el Comité Ejecutivo.

La rapidez en esta intervención, el repudio de estas manifestaciones expresadas hace ocho o más años, así como la medida preventiva dispuesta por el Comité Ejecutivo de la UAR, buscan hacer un análisis profundo de los hechos para una mejor y más justa resolución. La UAR repudió terminantemente este tipo de manifestaciones y a la vez entiende que las acusaciones difamatorias que se han vertido a partir de esto dañan a todo el rugby argentino sin excepción y no representan lo que nuestro deporte es.

Durante la declaración, los tres jugadores manifestaron su profundo arrepentimiento, reiteraron el pedido de disculpas, ratificaron que no es lo que piensan y que fue un acto imprudente propio de la inmadurez. Sin embargo, se hacen plenamente cargo y responsables, por lo que se pusieron a disposición de la Comisión para que se investiguen las circunstancias y buscar enmendar el daño causado.

A la hora de expedirse preliminarmente, la Comisión de Disciplina ha considerado y valorado la actitud de los tres jugadores durante este proceso, y entiende que los mismos no han repetido acciones similares durante estos más de ocho años, y que han demostrado durante este tiempo ser personas de valores firmes e íntegros y dignos de integrar nuestro seleccionado.

El proceso disciplinario continúa y la Comisión arribará a una resolución final en los próximos días de acuerdo con los tiempos del procedimiento, en esta primera instancia considera que el sostenimiento de las medidas preventivas resultan innecesarias, por lo cual resuelve levantar la suspensión de los tres jugadores y restituir la capitanía de Pablo Matera.

La Unión Argentina de Rugby y el plantel tienen roles y responsabilidades distintas pero un mismo objetivo: hacer que el rugby siga creciendo como deporte. El camino de una reflexión profunda sobre ciertas prácticas asociadas a nuestro deporte, iniciado a principios de año con el programa Rugby 2030, no tenemos dudas de que demandará tiempo. Y requiere, tanto por parte de la dirigencia como del plantel, dar señales contundentes en el momento justo.

03.12.2020

Automated translations via web

First statement

The Argentinean Rugby Union strongly repudiates the discriminatory and xenophobic comments published by members of the Pumas' team in social networks and meeting as a matter of urgency, the Board of Directors resolves:

Firstly, to revoke the captaincy of Pablo Matera and request the staff to propose to the Board a new captain.

Secondly, to suspend Pablo Matera, Guido Petti and Santiago Socino from the national team until their disciplinary situation is defined.

Thirdly, initiate a disciplinary process to the three players mentioned, in charge of the Disciplinary Committee of the Argentinean Rugby Union.

Although the messages were expressed between 2011 and 2013 and do not represent the integrity as people that the three showed during this time in Los Pumas, from the Argentinean Rugby Union we condemn any expression of hate and we consider unacceptable that those who express them, represent our country.

30.11.2020

Second statement

As it is publicly known, the Argentinean Rugby Union intervened urgently and in full competition to take measures related to the publication in the networks of different expressions of the players Pablo Nicolás Matera, Guido Petti Pagadizabal and Santiago Gabriel Socino.

According to World Rugby's procedures, which provide for urgent treatment in case of possible circumstances during a tournament, the Disciplinary Committee of the Argentine Rugby Union summoned to declare this Wednesday the players Pablo Nicolás Matera, Guido Petti Pagadizabal and Santiago Gabriel Socino, as requested by the Executive Committee.

The speed of this intervention, the repudiation of these demonstrations expressed eight or more years ago, as well as the preventive measure ordered by the Executive Committee of the UAR, seek to make a deep analysis of the facts for a better and fairer resolution. The UAR strictly repudiates this type of manifestations and at the same time understands that the defamatory accusations that have been made as a result of this damage the whole of Argentine rugby without exception and do not represent what our sport is about.

During the declaration, the three players expressed their deep regret, reiterated their apologies, and ratified that it is not what they think and that it was an imprudent act typical of immaturity. However, they take full responsibility and liability, so they put themselves at the disposal of the Commission to investigate the circumstances and seek to amend the damage caused.

At the time of the preliminary expedition, the Disciplinary Commission has considered and valued the attitude of the three players during this process, and understands that they have not repeated similar actions during these more than eight years, and that they have demonstrated during this time that they are people of firm values and integrity and worthy of being part of our national team.

The disciplinary process continues and the Commission will arrive at a final resolution in the next few days according to the time frame of the procedure. In this first instance, the Commission considers that the maintenance of the preventive measures is unnecessary, and therefore resolves to lift the suspension of the three players and to reinstate the captaincy of Pablo Matera.

The Argentinean Rugby Union and the staff have different roles and responsibilities but the same objective: to make rugby keep growing as a sport. The path of a deep reflection on certain practices associated to our sport, started at the beginning of the year with the Rugby 2030 program, we have no doubt that it will demand time. And it requires, both from the leadership and the staff, to give strong signals at the right time.

03.12.2020

[Blake]

Wouldn't his (former) views be welcomed in the Boks?

[/James Small]

No. No, it would not.

[/Geo Cronje]

Funny how the Geo Cronje thing still has legs all these years later.
Just goes to prove that once a lie gets repeated enough it sticks regardless of what the truth is.

[Torquemada 1420]

No. No, it would not.

[/Geo Cronje]

Funny how the Geo Cronje thing still has legs all these years later.
Just goes to prove that once a lie gets repeated enough it sticks regardless of what the truth is.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/keohan ... H75L3Q5D4/

[Blake]

If you want to take the version of events from Mark Keohane as gospel, be my guest.