What did we learn about the AB's this year?

[Carter's Choice]

It was a strange year for the AB's, characterised by inconsistency. We had a couple of excellent performances, but these were punctuated by some of the worst performances we've seen by the AB's in the professional era.

My take-aways from 2020;

1. Coaching: The jury is still very much out on Ian Foster and his team
2. The midfield: We are no closer to working out our first choice midfield than we were for the duration of the entire last RWC cycle. The selectors should be ashamed of themselves. Goodhue/ALB at 12/13 lacks balance and isn't working.
3. The backrow still lacks balance. Ardie Savea is an openside playing at 8, and Sam Cane is the slowest 7 in test rugby
4. Akira Ioane is now our first choice 6, but he is yet to cement his place at blindside flanker
5. Our back three is not settled. BB didn't make a linebreak at any level of Rugby all season and Jordie Barrett isn't a winger's arsehole
6. The dual play maker setup is terrible, and exists only to placate Beauden Barrett
7. Our halfbacks look old, we need some new blood (Fakatava!!!!). Smith, TJP and Weber will all be on the wrong side of 30 at the next RWC
8. Richie Mo'unga will never settle at 10 as long as BB is being encouraged by Foster to run the team from 15
9. Nepo Laulala is our best scrummaging TH prop needs to start every test match at no.3
10. Patrick Tuipulotu will never be a great starting test lock

[FujiKiwi]

Caleb Clarke is still very much a work in progress.
The talented Rieko Ioane does not seem to learn from his mistakes. Also, if he is to have a future in the midfield, he needs to distribute better.
The Aussies can dominate our scrum.
We need new blood at hooker.
Will Jordan needs to start.
Hoskins Sotutu needs time on the field to develop his Super rugby potential into test rugby impact.

[Carter's Choice]

Caleb Clarke is still very much a work in progress.
The talented Rieko Ioane does not seem to learn from his mistakes. Also, if he is to have a future in the midfield, he needs to distribute better.
The Aussies can dominate our scrum.
We need new blood at hooker.
Will Jordan needs to start.
Hoskins Sotutu needs time on the field to develop his Super rugby potential into test rugby impact.

I agree with all that

[Wignu]

For a start throw the fucking shoe horn out the door, play players in the position they're best at.

• Jordie Barrett, if he's in the team, to play FB and would have him there to start with can't see him coming on at a latter stage to be a super-sub. Otherwise go with Jordan.

• Reiko Ioane play at wing or nothing, he's not good enough at this stage of his career in the centres.

• Settle on a centre pairing and play them in their best positions.

• Laumape on the bench for centre, realise he doesn't cover other positions but he could provide the impact and difference in latter stages of a game.

• RMo at 10 until the cows come home and controlling the game himself.

• TJP, a great ambassador for the game but is nowhere near his best, maybe time to have the next cab off the rank as second choice (preference would be to give Fakatava a run).

• Aussies tried Pooper and it didn't really work, start with Cane and bring Ardie on later in the game.

• Give Akira another crack and see if he can keep his momentum up, if he can he will be a player to be reckoned with (and not in the Dane Coles niggly style).

• And AC's favourite player BB - On the bench and come in at 15 later in the game

Just my pretty much ill-informed non-AB selector view on things :).

[Jb1981]

- Sam Cane is a follow me player but I’m still not sure whether he is a captain.

- Will Jordan could be a prodigy.

- A Barrett free backline may be the best backline.

- Tactics - unclear.

[mrbrownstone]

Aside from Will Jordan in the last test, our bench backs offered nothing. This used to be a huge point of difference 4-5 years ago with BB, DMac, SBW, Crotty, Fekitoa etc. offering telling contributions in the final quarter.

We went away from that last year with SBW and Jordie our main bench back reserves in the WC offering no pace or impact. This year, TJP brought no spark, Ioane often did more harm than good, and DMac looked woefully out of form.

Time for a rethink. Imagine what:

21. Fakatava
22. Laumape
23. Reece

Could do against a tiring defence?

[Flockwitt]

The ABs aren't and won't be in the current cycle of players the automatic favourites, guaranteed to win if they play well against any current opposition. That's the way it is. The heady days of 2015 with world best players in a bunch of positions and close to on each position on the bench are over.

The ABs tactics have also been well and truly found out. There's nothing innovative or unique about their systems or style of play, they need to execute well, or they'll lose. If they have an off day they aren't going to win by scrambling in the last 15 minutes. The opposition teams are fit enough to deal with it.

So where does that leave the ABs for now? WIP for mine. They need a bunch of the younger players to reach their potential, and develop experience. And then the coaches have to deliver a game plan that works for the players.

Personally:
Reiko doesn't read the game well enough at 13 defensively to play there, end of. He needs a couple of years experience at soup level before he should be in the ABs for that. Looking good going forward doesn't cut it.
I'm fine with Jordie at fullback. Not on the wing, especially in the current balance of the team.
I'm not sure Lumpy is going to be able to transfer into test level. I'm a fan, he needs to be given another shot, but I'm not going to be surprised if he doesn't cut it.
I'm not sure the drive to make more senior leaders constantly step up in the team is entirely correct. There are multiple speaking in every huddle. That's encouraged from the coaches. It's not Cane's 'fault' at all, but I'm not sure it's doing his captaincy, or say rather the perception of his captaincy, any good. Sometimes leadership by committee isn't the way to go. Sam's been a wonderful inspiration as a player regardless.

Going forward I think the ABs could look to build a team on raw power and pace, with less fancy chip kicks and back flicks. Let's see how the Blues combo continues through 2021. I'll be watching UJ carefully next year. Between him and Ennor there will hopefully be something to build a balanced midfield around if either continue their upward trajectory, but it'll take some patience from the AB fans.

[wet-socks]

1. Moody
2. Coles
3. Laulala
4. Rettalick
5. Whitelock
6. Ioane
7. Cane
8. Sotutu
9. Smith
10. Mo'unga
11. Clarke
12. Lienert
13. Goodhue
14. Sir William
15. McNuggets~

16. Taylor
17. Tu’inukuafe
18. Tu'ungafasi
19. S.Barrett
20. A.Savea
21. Fakatava
22. Reiko Ioane
23. Beauden Barrett

[ASMO]

That there is no aura

[Not_Couch]

Laumape NEEDS to start at 12. Period. We need him to start and develop an all round game, we need a specialist 12 to start with a specialist 10. Having 2x all round midfielders is stupid when one should be on the bench as cover only. I'd have ALB start as his distribution is better and I think he's more versatile on both ends of the field. Goodhue on the bench.

We need to BENCH Jordie , he is our NZ Reece Hodge that can cover multiple positions but is a master of none, BUT he has a BOOT on him and can potentially be a difference maker in a tight game dropping late penalties for us.

Reiko is not a Centre. He is an 11 ONLY. Keep him there FFS! All his other showboating and cvntish ways needs to be reigned in yes but I'd rather him score tries for us and showboat than not score tries as a centre.

Caleb Clarke is NOT Julian Savea, and he never will be. He is too short for a start, I'd put him in the b team so he can gain more experience before anymore promotion.

PUT Will Jordan at 14! Now...like yesterday! He is the real deal.

I'm going to be slightly contraversial and say start DMac at 15 and leave BB on the bench (which in turn leaves Jordie out or vice versa). I believe DMac has as much xfactor in open space as BB but is a better compliment player to Rmo, and doesn't require the ball all the time and hangs around the fringes looking for gaps, also has a kicking game and links up better with ALB in the midfield.

Sam Canes captaincy needs to be questioned . He is not our first choice 7 (Savea) and he is not even our best 6 option(Ioane, Frizzell, Boshier etc etc) so why have him??? Sam Whitelock is arguably a better captain with a cooler head our most senior all black and more importantly knows how to win.

We need Sotutu to start at 8 and give him some experience, Savea at 8 only hinders it.

Savea should start at 7 all day every day, Cane on the bench can cover 6 or 7. Ioane can cover 6 and 8 on the bench

We need to start Coles at 2 and have Aumua on the bench ahead of Taylor who lacks the energy of Aumua as well as youth. Both throwers are as bad as each other so that equals out. Aumua is the future imo.

Our backup 5 is a problem, until Brodie comes.back we are left with Patrick tooslowpulotu or Scott Cardett. Tupou Vaea hasn't put a step wrong so far and should start to gain experience. The other 2 mentioned have done more wrong in the black Jersey than right.imo

I concur we need to explore younger 9 options, TJP is past his prime and got the Beauden Barrett disease. Webber.is not the future either. Aaron Smith is alone but he isn't getting any younger and his play is getting found out by the likes of tougher defensive systems teams are employing. Fakatava? Booth? Hall? Fuck knows???

I personally would not start with the Auckland blues props, at all. Period.

[Guy Smiley]

That there is no aura

aaaand bingo...

When you have to keep denying it

[Torquemada 1420]

There is a touch of schadenfreude here for me having spent 2 decades blasting French rugby for its obsession on playing people out of position or the mantra of "polyvalence"
- Laporte's obsession with skinny blindsides at 8 = Bonnaire and Hari
- SH's playing at FH in RWC finals FFS
just 2 examples

It's a mixture of disbelief and amusement to see the 2nd smartest side in the world embark upon this folly in what has to be the world's most specialist position , team sport.

[Carter's Choice]

Sam Canes captaincy needs to be questioned . He is not our first choice 7 (Savea) and he is not even our best 6 option(Ioane, Frizzell, Boshier etc etc) so why have him??? Sam Whitelock is arguably a better captain with a cooler head our most senior all black and more importantly knows how to win.

I agree with this, and it's just another damning indictment of Ian Foster's coaching. His rush to appoint Sam Cane as captain was ridiculous. Sam Whitelock is and was by far the best credentialed candidate.

[FujiKiwi]

My understanding was that Whitelock wasn’t being considered because he has a sabbatical in his contract and was going to be out for a season.

I’m pretty sure that was it. If so, should he have been named captain anyway and a stand in chosen for the year he was away?

Or should someone other than Cane have been chosen?

EDIT: On a quick skim read it was only a Super season he intended to miss? Sounds like he may have been keen to sit out an end of year tour though:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all- ... sabbatical

[Carter's Choice]

My understanding was that Whitelock wasn’t being considered because he has a sabbatical in his contract and was going to be out for a season.

I’m pretty sure that was it. If so, should he have been named captain anyway and a stand in chosen for the year he was away?

Or should someone other than Cane have been chosen?

I agree. Cane could have deputised for a year if Sam W was missing, or someone like Dane Coles? Anyway, Sam W didn't end up taking his sabbatical this year and was arguably our most consistent forward and most visible on-field leader.

[FujiKiwi]

The Stuff article I posted above says it was just a Super season he was sure he wanted to sit out. But there was also an exit clause conspicuously written into his contract. The sense is he wasn’t 100% sure he’d be keen in 2023. I still would have preferred him as captain, even with that uncertainty. He’s much more obviously and consistently the best player in his position in the country.

[Flockwitt]

I'm hoping Sam W is the AB captain through next year and the RWC. The problem is, putting him in now over Sam C is in its own way a slap in the face of Cane which should have been avoided, easy enough to qualify his first year appointment in some manner.

[Dan54]

Go along with jury is out on coaching, but am interested to see what happens next year if they get full year and with 15 tests there will be a huge number of players tried etc, because there is no way any players are going to play 12-15 tests, so plenty of combos will be run out.
Will wait until next year to see what players come through, I real keen on Fakatava, like a lot here, but lets admit it none of us were saying that before ABs went away.
Still have to be careful with Super form, I don't reckon it always transfers to test level, Sam Cane is a good super player, but by far the best 7 at test level where you have to play a different game. Thought he was our best forward this year. PT looked a monster at lock for Blues this year, and was decidedly average (I thought) in tests.

[Dan54]

The Stuff article I posted above says it was just a Super season he was sure he wanted to sit out. But there was also an exit clause conspicuously written into his contract. The sense is he wasn’t 100% sure he’d be keen in 2023. I still would have preferred him as captain, even with that uncertainty. He’s much more obviously and consistently the best player in his position in the country.

Originally he was missing super rugby and mid year tests that never happened anyway. Pretty sure he was always available for RC.

[Gumboot]

Go along with jury is out on coaching, but am interested to see what happens next year if they get full year and with 15 tests there will be a huge number of players tried etc, because there is no way any players are going to play 12-15 tests, so plenty of combos will be run out.
Will wait until next year to see what players come through, I real keen on Fakatava, like a lot here, but lets admit it none of us were saying that before ABs went away.
Still have to be careful with Super form, I don't reckon it always transfers to test level, Sam Cane is a good super player, but by far the best 7 at test level where you have to play a different game. Thought he was our best forward this year. PT looked a monster at lock for Blues this year, and was decidedly average (I thought) in tests.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

Cane is our best test openside and also the right captain, for mine. Not sure why some people are still banging on about Whitelock's captaincy creds... That ship has sailed - get over it.

Few people were talking about Fakatava before because he's been stuck on the Highlanders bench behind Aaron Smith for the past two years. I'd like to see him on the ABs bench behind Aaron Smith as I think he has the potential to be our next great halfback.

[Sandstorm]

We learned that without the Boks, the ABs lose interest and slope around the pitch at 40% effort.

[Not_Couch]

Go along with jury is out on coaching, but am interested to see what happens next year if they get full year and with 15 tests there will be a huge number of players tried etc, because there is no way any players are going to play 12-15 tests, so plenty of combos will be run out.
Will wait until next year to see what players come through, I real keen on Fakatava, like a lot here, but lets admit it none of us were saying that before ABs went away.
Still have to be careful with Super form, I don't reckon it always transfers to test level, Sam Cane is a good super player, but by far the best 7 at test level where you have to play a different game. Thought he was our best forward this year. PT looked a monster at lock for Blues this year, and was decidedly average (I thought) in tests.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

Cane is our best test openside and also the right captain, for mine. Not sure why some people are still banging on about Whitelock's captaincy creds... That ship has sailed - get over it.

Few people were talking about Fakatava before because he's been stuck on the Highlanders bench behind Aaron Smith for the past two years. I'd like to see him on the ABs bench behind Aaron Smith as I think he has the potential to be our next great halfback.

How many balls has Cane jackled this year? His only redeeming factor is he can tackle hard in the first 20mins of each game. He is NOT.a good.jackler or a lineout option, he is not a fast hard runner of the ball and he doesn't even know how to manage a ref. He's waaay too polite and quiet refs treat him with no respect. Worst Captain since Taine Randall.

[Gumboot]

LOL wtf is a "jackler"?

[Carter's Choice]

Cane is our best test openside and also the right captain, for mine. Not sure why some people are still banging on about Whitelock's captaincy creds... That ship has sailed - get over it.

This is a Rugby forum, people chat about Rugby. If rugby chat offends you then that's your problem. You can say what you like about Cane as a player, but his record as captain is a disgrace.

[Gumboot]

Cane is our best test openside and also the right captain, for mine. Not sure why some people are still banging on about Whitelock's captaincy creds... That ship has sailed - get over it.

This is a Rugby forum, people chat about Rugby. If rugby chat offends you then that's your problem. You can say what you like about Cane as a player, but his record as captain is a disgrace.

Why would I possibly be offended? It's just such a tired old topic, isn't it - "the wrong Sam got the job!" - may as well be discussing Bring Back Buck for all the relevance it has now. But no doubt some people won't be happy unless they whine about the injustice of it all every day for the next three years...

[Carter's Choice]

LOL wtf is a "jackler"?

Someone who is effective at forcing turnovers at the breakdown. Think Lachlan Boshier or Ardie Savea.

[Dan54]

Wouldn't mind betting midfield backs make as many turnover as 7's in International rugby these days. A good 7 should be slowing down oppositions ball as much as winning turnovers in todays game.

[stemoc]

being slightly biased but Sotutu is the 8 the AB's need but the longer they have shitcane at 7, the less likelihood of ardie playing in his best position which means hoskisn will get wasted and forgottten (like todd).. fozzie is making the same mistake hansen did by intentionally not playing ardie at 7 ..pooper was a huge fail and Sardie will be too or is it Cardie AB?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

That under Ian Foster, they are about as ordinary as we'd all feared.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

being slightly biased but Sotutu is the 8 the AB's need but the longer they have shitcane at 7, the less likelihood of ardie playing in his best position which means hoskisn will get wasted and forgottten (like todd).. fozzie is making the same mistake hansen did by intentionally not playing ardie at 7 ..pooper was a huge fail and Sardie will be too or is it Cardie AB?

Savea is fuck all at 7. He was anonymous in the first half of the RWC semi final, although far from the only forward who failed to turn up.

Cane has been close to the All Blacks' best player in this truncated season.

You have some weird fucking takes at times, comets.

[Not_Couch]

being slightly biased but Sotutu is the 8 the AB's need but the longer they have shitcane at 7, the less likelihood of ardie playing in his best position which means hoskisn will get wasted and forgottten (like todd).. fozzie is making the same mistake hansen did by intentionally not playing ardie at 7 ..pooper was a huge fail and Sardie will be too or is it Cardie AB?

Savea is fuck all at 7. He was anonymous in the first half of the RWC semi final, although far from the only forward who failed to turn up.

Cane has been close to the All Blacks' best player in this truncated season.

You have some weird fucking takes at times, comets.

This statement reveals why you know sweet fuck all about Rugby

Here's the official match stats in the last in AB game vs Argentina (taken from ESPN.com)

Akira Ioane

Passes. 7
Runs. 9
Metres Run. 41
Defenders Beaten. 2
Offloads. 0
Tackles. 8
Turnovers conceded. 0


Sam Cane

Passes. 7
Runs. 8
Metres Run. 13. (From 8 carries? seriously to wtf???)
Defenders Beaten. 0
Offloads. 1
Tackles. 5
Turnovers conceded 1 ( our specialist 7 with a grand total of 1 yes 1 turnover )

Ardie Savea

Passes. 5
Runs. 15
Metres Run. 47
Defenders Beaten. 7
Offloads. 1
Tackles 2
Turnovers conceded 0

Its not rocket science that Ardie and Akira had the better game that night in a convincing victory.

[Gumboot]

You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

[Not_Couch]

You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

If youre suggesting that Ardie is not better than Cane than you know sweet fuck all about Rugby.

Numbers don't lie. Only fanboys such as yourself and Jimmy.

Sports is an analytical game these days, get with the times.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

Totally. One hand picked game, for obvious reasons. Cane had a quieter shift.

Look at his full body of work, the guy was immense.

What a disingenuous cunt.

[Guy Smiley]

There’s no need for the personal abuse. Apparently, we’re not teenagers.

[Not_Couch]

You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

Totally. One hand picked game, for obvious reasons. Cane had a quieter shift.

Look at his full body of work, the guy was immense.

What a disingenuous cunt.

You just hand picked the RWC 19 semi final to prove a point about Ardie Savea, and I shoved it back in your face with receipts. I own you in this thread.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

You'd make a better rocket scientist than rugby selector, Not_Couch. Comparing Cane's six full games leading from the front to Akira's one and a bit tests is daft for a start...

Gotta say, anyone suggesting Sam Cane is a shit rugby player knows sweet fuck all about the game.

Totally. One hand picked game, for obvious reasons. Cane had a quieter shift.

Look at his full body of work, the guy was immense.

What a disingenuous cunt.

You just hand picked the RWC 19 semi final to prove a point about Ardie Savea, and I shoved it back in your face with receipts. I own you in this thread.

In your head.

Savea has done fuck all at 7 in his test career. He should enjoy starting at 8 as that is where he has played his best rugby.

End of argument.

[Carter's Choice]

People can argue the merits of Cane vs Savea at 7 till the cows come home. Ultimately it's subjective, it's a matter of opinion. What's not subjective is that Sam Cane is not a great captain, and was less qualified than Sam Whitelock to take over from Kieran Read.

[stemoc]

Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

[Gumboot]

Sam Cane is a bench option, not a starter. i rate papali'i, Kirifi, Lamborn (who doesn't even have a super contract) and ofcourse Boshier well ahead of Sam Concussionane

Didn't Boshier also have concussion problems this year? What was the injury that kept him out of Taranaki's Championship SF against HB?