So, coronavirus...

[Sandstorm]

Mixing vaccines? Are we THAT desperate to get out of lockdown that we’re going to mix drinks like frontrowers on tour?

[fishfoodie]

Mixing vaccines? Are we THAT desperate to get out of lockdown that we’re going to mix drinks like frontrowers on tour?

The UK loses control over it's own populace; & the Politicians, total, complete & utter failure to respond to infection; & in a knee-jerk reaction decides to undermine every other countries vaccination program; brilliant !!

Now if something goes wrong along the way; the anti-vaxxer scum will be emboldened & they'll point to how the Politicians are working to their own agenda, & the science is all bullshit.

[Saint]

Still a bizarre decision though according to the quoted scientists. PHE or Hancock need to explain what science they're using to back up this assumption.

It's actually the entire basis for the Russian vaccine.

Is this good or bad? Doesn't seem we want to be copying Russia...

OK - this will be a bit of a long read. The idea behind all of the vaccines is that they are specifically targeting a protein spike, This isn't the old days of de-activating whole viruses or anything like that.

So the entire theory now is that if everyone is targeting the same spike then it doesn't actually matter anymore what the delivery mechanism is - as long as the protein spike is accurately represented.

Bother AZ and SputnikV are vector vaccines. They're taking the core of an existing virus, gagging the protein spike onto it, and dropping it into your system. The risk to this type of solution is that the immune system may end up producing antibodies for the vector, rather than the spike, especially if they'be previously seen the vector before.

AZ gets round this by using a chimpanzee Adenovirus as it's vector. Something that the human body won't have seen before as it's completely harmless. The only thing that it can possibly focus on is the protein spike.

But Sputnik uses a human Adenovirus. Although it's fundamentally harmless as it's just the core, it's a near certainty that the humann body has seen that vector before, but without the Covid spike (Adenoviruses are ridiculously common). If the second dose were to be the same as the first in that instance, then there is a chance (unquantifiable) that the immune system will focus on the thing it has seen a lot of before. To get round this, dose 2 of Sputnik is built on a different Adenovirus. The immune system sees the same protein spike presented two different ways and actually produces a much more targeted immune response.

In other words SputnikV is two vaccines, not one. No-one's done anything like that before because it's historically been hard enough to build one vaccine, let alone two. But the whole point of vector vaccines is that once you've cracked the specifics for a virus then making modifications as needed becomes simple.

Obviously, mRNA vaccines like Pfizer are working a bit differently. They tell your body to produce the protein spike, which the immune system then learns to recognise and produce antibodies for. The thing is, as long as both vaccines accurately represent the protein spike, then the immune system response should be close to the same, and theory says it's likely better.

The big unknowable here is a lack of data. These techniques are new; we can't say with 100% certainty that things actually will work like this, and obviously we have zero empirical evidence to work with, especially for Covid. But we do know that Sputnik, Pfizer, and AZ are all generating immune responses that appear to produce the same antibodies and T-Cells. So they're all representing the spike the same, or close enough that the human body treats it the same. That being the case, a second dose of a different vaccine will theoretically work at least as well if not better than two of the same.

[Sandstorm]

Good info Saint. But it’s all theory at the moment and when people like Hancock start getting behind it, I get worried.

[Saint]

Good info Saint. But it’s all theory at the moment and when people like Hancock start getting behind it, I get worried.

It's theory but it's sound scientific theory with some limited evidence that supports it. There's no way Hancock is doing this without complete backing from MHRA and the rest of the UK scientific community - but his public credibility is somewhat lacking at this point

[fishfoodie]

Good info Saint. But it’s all theory at the moment and when people like Hancock start getting behind it, I get worried.

For me the bottom line is that the various vaccines were/are certified under certain conditions, & these conditions are based on the data that the manufacturers derived from the trials.

If a country decides to just ignore those conditions; why the fuck did they bother waiting for the certification ?

Ditto; if they are going to use data from one vaccine, to make predictions on how another vaccine, "may", perform, why bother your arse looking at the data at all, since you are just going to cherry pick the bits that suit you ?

The process of certification didn't just happen; it came evolved thru a painful process of success & failure, & by God did people suffer thru the failures.

Again; I understand that these are trying times; but I don't see the justification for potentially fucking up everyones vaccination plans; just to, maybe, slightly advance one countries.

If the UKs plans made sense a month ago; why are they so fatally flawed today ?

[Saint]

Good info Saint. But it’s all theory at the moment and when people like Hancock start getting behind it, I get worried.

For me the bottom line is that the various vaccines were/are certified under certain conditions, & these conditions are based on the data that the manufacturers derived from the trials.

If a country decides to just ignore those conditions; why the fuck did they bother waiting for the certification ?

Ditto; if they are going to use data from one vaccine, to make predictions on how another vaccine, "may", perform, why bother your arse looking at the data at all, since you are just going to cherry pick the bits that suit you ?

The process of certification didn't just happen; it came evolved thru a painful process of success & failure, & by God did people suffer thru the failures.

Again; I understand that these are trying times; but I don't see the justification for potentially fucking up everyones vaccination plans; just to, maybe, slightly advance one countries.

If the UKs plans made sense a month ago; why are they so fatally flawed today ?

Fundamentally it boils down to one simple thing - we're now surrounded by a version of Covid19 that appears to be so successful it actually increased it's spread during our last lockdiwn, and Tier4 doesn't really seem to be doing much to stop things either.

My concern about tge whole process us tge comment about being unable to identify the first dose that someone may have had. That implies an expectation that the records of delivery will not be accurate (or may not even exist). In a first world country, even where the health system is under pressure, that implies a horrible failure that's now almost expected to happen

[fishfoodie]

Good info Saint. But it’s all theory at the moment and when people like Hancock start getting behind it, I get worried.

For me the bottom line is that the various vaccines were/are certified under certain conditions, & these conditions are based on the data that the manufacturers derived from the trials.

If a country decides to just ignore those conditions; why the fuck did they bother waiting for the certification ?

Ditto; if they are going to use data from one vaccine, to make predictions on how another vaccine, "may", perform, why bother your arse looking at the data at all, since you are just going to cherry pick the bits that suit you ?

The process of certification didn't just happen; it came evolved thru a painful process of success & failure, & by God did people suffer thru the failures.

Again; I understand that these are trying times; but I don't see the justification for potentially fucking up everyones vaccination plans; just to, maybe, slightly advance one countries.

If the UKs plans made sense a month ago; why are they so fatally flawed today ?

Fundamentally it boils down to one simple thing - we're now surrounded by a version of Covid19 that appears to be so successful it actually increased it's spread during our last lockdown, and Tier4 doesn't really seem to be doing much to stop things either.

But why would a more aggressively infectious form of the virus change the fundamental principal of protection the most vulnerable first ?

Sorry; but the UKs, "tiers", are a bunch of shit; & reflect the way the Politicians apply them; I'm pretty sure this isn't news to you.

My concern about tge whole process us tge comment about being unable to identify the first dose that someone may have had. That implies an expectation that the records of delivery will not be accurate (or may not even exist). In a first world country, even where the health system is under pressure, that implies a horrible failure that's now almost expected to happen

Well that's a total shit show regardless; & not something that is specific to the vaccine; but more about the graft within a Government that has failed to ensure that capable bodies are awarded contracts. Everything in science is dependent on data; & it makes a mockery of the bumblecunts lauding of the UKs success with developing vaccines, if the same country can't just fucking record a persons name against their NHS UID , & what vaccine they received when.

If UK citizens were being charged for the vaccines they recieved, you can be guarentee that that would be correctly recorded !

[Saint]

For me the bottom line is that the various vaccines were/are certified under certain conditions, & these conditions are based on the data that the manufacturers derived from the trials.

If a country decides to just ignore those conditions; why the fuck did they bother waiting for the certification ?

Ditto; if they are going to use data from one vaccine, to make predictions on how another vaccine, "may", perform, why bother your arse looking at the data at all, since you are just going to cherry pick the bits that suit you ?

The process of certification didn't just happen; it came evolved thru a painful process of success & failure, & by God did people suffer thru the failures.

Again; I understand that these are trying times; but I don't see the justification for potentially fucking up everyones vaccination plans; just to, maybe, slightly advance one countries.

If the UKs plans made sense a month ago; why are they so fatally flawed today ?

Fundamentally it boils down to one simple thing - we're now surrounded by a version of Covid19 that appears to be so successful it actually increased it's spread during our last lockdown, and Tier4 doesn't really seem to be doing much to stop things either.

But why would a more aggressively infectious form of the virus change the fundamental principal of protection the most vulnerable first ?

Sorry; but the UKs, "tiers", are a bunch of shit; & reflect the way the Politicians apply them; I'm pretty sure this isn't news to you.

My concern about tge whole process us tge comment about being unable to identify the first dose that someone may have had. That implies an expectation that the records of delivery will not be accurate (or may not even exist). In a first world country, even where the health system is under pressure, that implies a horrible failure that's now almost expected to happen

Well that's a total shit show regardless; & not something that is specific to the vaccine; but more about the graft within a Government that has failed to ensure that capable bodies are awarded contracts. Everything in science is dependent on data; & it makes a mockery of the bumblecunts lauding of the UKs success with developing vaccines, if the same country can't just fucking record a persons name against their NHS UID , & what vaccine they received when.

If UK citizens were being charged for the vaccines they recieved, you can be guarentee that that would be correctly recorded !

So firstly, when the infection rate is basically unstoppable beyond an unenforceable complete lockdown then the only answer is dish out whatever you can as fast as possible. Even 50% efficacy at this stage would turn an uncontrollable spread into something that would be manageable.

Secondly, recording accurate medical data is not a problem limited to the UK - but I am concerned by the near expectation that at least in some cases the records will not be accurate. However, the idea of a single repository of patient records that can be readily accessed at all levels of the NHS has been an ongoing black hole of public funding for as long as I can remember, every so often there will be yet another tabloid expose detailing where the last billion or so has been spent for zero result

[Hong Kong]

Jim Jordan is a dull mofu

[Ted.]

For me the bottom line is that the various vaccines were/are certified under certain conditions, & these conditions are based on the data that the manufacturers derived from the trials.

If a country decides to just ignore those conditions; why the fuck did they bother waiting for the certification ?

Ditto; if they are going to use data from one vaccine, to make predictions on how another vaccine, "may", perform, why bother your arse looking at the data at all, since you are just going to cherry pick the bits that suit you ?

The process of certification didn't just happen; it came evolved thru a painful process of success & failure, & by God did people suffer thru the failures.

Again; I understand that these are trying times; but I don't see the justification for potentially fucking up everyones vaccination plans; just to, maybe, slightly advance one countries.

If the UKs plans made sense a month ago; why are they so fatally flawed today ?

Fundamentally it boils down to one simple thing - we're now surrounded by a version of Covid19 that appears to be so successful it actually increased it's spread during our last lockdown, and Tier4 doesn't really seem to be doing much to stop things either.

But why would a more aggressively infectious form of the virus change the fundamental principal of protection the most vulnerable first ?

Sorry; but the UKs, "tiers", are a bunch of shit; & reflect the way the Politicians apply them; I'm pretty sure this isn't news to you.

My concern about tge whole process us tge comment about being unable to identify the first dose that someone may have had. That implies an expectation that the records of delivery will not be accurate (or may not even exist). In a first world country, even where the health system is under pressure, that implies a horrible failure that's now almost expected to happen

Well that's a total shit show regardless; & not something that is specific to the vaccine; but more about the graft within a Government that has failed to ensure that capable bodies are awarded contracts. Everything in science is dependent on data; & it makes a mockery of the bumblecunts lauding of the UKs success with developing vaccines, if the same country can't just fucking record a persons name against their NHS UID , & what vaccine they received when.

If UK citizens were being charged for the vaccines they recieved, you can be guarentee that that would be correctly recorded !

Duh!

[Raggs]

Reading about it, it does sound more like preparing for bad situations (which is what you'd hope for) rather than just not giving a shit. Basically if for any reason there's not a record, a 2nd dose of any of the 3 is better than no 2nd dose at all, so that's what we're going to do.

I mean I'm sure there's some other disaster planning documents out there that could easily be construed as the government being awful, but it's actually just preparation for an awful situation.

I do agree that it's the government responsible for the awful situation we find ourselves in with the 2nd wave though.

[SaintK]

Government pointing the finger and getting their excuses in early for missing their vaccinations target

Vaccine manufacturers have rubbished claims made by ministers that a Covid vaccine shortage was “limiting” the inoculation programme, and insist that millions of doses have already been delivered to the NHS.
It comes after ministers and the UK’s chief medical officers warned that shortages in the supply of vaccines is a global issue and a “reality that cannot be wished away”.
Boris Johnson said earlier this week that supply would be the “rate-limiting factor” that could hinder the NHS’s ability to deliver the vaccines quickly, not distribution.

But both Pfizer and AstraZeneca have insisted there was no problem with supply, with Pfizer saying it has now sent millions of doses to the UK, reports The Daily Telegraph. These include 1 million jabs that were destined as the second dose for people who have already received their first jab – which will now be delayed following a change in policy.

I wonder who is right?

[I like neeps]

Government pointing the finger and getting their excuses in early for missing their vaccinations target

Vaccine manufacturers have rubbished claims made by ministers that a Covid vaccine shortage was “limiting” the inoculation programme, and insist that millions of doses have already been delivered to the NHS.
It comes after ministers and the UK’s chief medical officers warned that shortages in the supply of vaccines is a global issue and a “reality that cannot be wished away”.
Boris Johnson said earlier this week that supply would be the “rate-limiting factor” that could hinder the NHS’s ability to deliver the vaccines quickly, not distribution.

But both Pfizer and AstraZeneca have insisted there was no problem with supply, with Pfizer saying it has now sent millions of doses to the UK, reports The Daily Telegraph. These include 1 million jabs that were destined as the second dose for people who have already received their first jab – which will now be delayed following a change in policy.

I wonder who is right?

As discussed in the brexit thread current crop of conversative politicians get away with lying because people just don't care. But I think lying about the vaccine after saying everyone will be free soon will get them. Although the covid response has been a total flustercuck and polling suggests the public blame themselves not the govt so we shall see.

[frodder]

I've met the AZ CEO a couple of times. He'll ensure the supply chain is well stocked with money no limit to anything

[Lemoentjie]

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to mix vaccines, is there?

It could be superior- in the second dose of a viral vector vaccine, there is a worry that the immune system will attack the vector before it can deliver the Covid-19 load, and your body won't train itself sufficiently against Covid.

[Raggs]

I've seen independent data collection folk in Twitter trying to find out how much has been delivered. Seems to be concerns that its not getting deliveredin the numbers previously promised. So it may be the government are in the right here.

[Saint]

We know that there are currently delays in delivery- that's already been reported. The target is to get the vaccination rate up to 2 million per week, and if we were actually ready to deliver that much right now then we will run out of what's promised for January by the end of the 3rd week or so.

As it is though, this is giving us a but of breathing room to build up process, logistics, etc.

[Saint]

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to mix vaccines, is there?

It could be superior- in the second dose of a viral vector vaccine, there is a worry that the immune system will attack the vector before it can deliver the Covid-19 load, and your body won't train itself sufficiently against Covid.

See my longer answer from last night

[Saint]

India approves AZ. Tge Serum Institute already has 100 million dose manufactured so they'll be cracking on with that next week

[fishfoodie]

Fundamentally it boils down to one simple thing - we're now surrounded by a version of Covid19 that appears to be so successful it actually increased it's spread during our last lockdown, and Tier4 doesn't really seem to be doing much to stop things either.

But why would a more aggressively infectious form of the virus change the fundamental principal of protection the most vulnerable first ?

Sorry; but the UKs, "tiers", are a bunch of shit; & reflect the way the Politicians apply them; I'm pretty sure this isn't news to you.

My concern about tge whole process us tge comment about being unable to identify the first dose that someone may have had. That implies an expectation that the records of delivery will not be accurate (or may not even exist). In a first world country, even where the health system is under pressure, that implies a horrible failure that's now almost expected to happen

Well that's a total shit show regardless; & not something that is specific to the vaccine; but more about the graft within a Government that has failed to ensure that capable bodies are awarded contracts. Everything in science is dependent on data; & it makes a mockery of the bumblecunts lauding of the UKs success with developing vaccines, if the same country can't just fucking record a persons name against their NHS UID , & what vaccine they received when.

If UK citizens were being charged for the vaccines they recieved, you can be guarentee that that would be correctly recorded !

So firstly, when the infection rate is basically unstoppable beyond an unenforceable complete lockdown then the only answer is dish out whatever you can as fast as possible. Even 50% efficacy at this stage would turn an uncontrollable spread into something that would be manageable.

Secondly, recording accurate medical data is not a problem limited to the UK - but I am concerned by the near expectation that at least in some cases the records will not be accurate. However, the idea of a single repository of patient records that can be readily accessed at all levels of the NHS has been an ongoing black hole of public funding for as long as I can remember, every so often there will be yet another tabloid expose detailing where the last billion or so has been spent for zero result

Thanks Saint, I really appreciate your contributions on this thread

Thinking more on this, I guess my reaction to changing plans is a reflection on where my own comfort zone is when making big decisions. I was always trained to act on the data, & to make my plans based on what I know; & then not change the plan if the data doesn't change. If it's a good plan, its a good plan.

I think; as you say the new strain has the people who have the data badly spooked, & I'm guessing that in particular the way it is now effecting demographics not previously badly hit, means that the previous plan to protect totally the elderly first, & hope that the rest of the population can wait; is now not viable, as the health services are already under immense pressure, & I'd guess the average age of those hospitalized has plummeted.

I think this is going to be a grim New year

[Paddington Bear]

India approves AZ. Tge Serum Institute already has 100 million dose manufactured so they'll be cracking on with that next week

Great news. Fascinated to see how India gets on distributing it

[SaintK]

Thanks Saint, I really appreciate your contributions on this thread

Seconded

[tc27]

The UK is currently no3 in the world in terms of its total population vaccinated, is way ahead of European its peers in rolling it out and is the origin of probably the most effective (in terms of cost and logistics) vaccine.

Some people here need to get a grip...its a hit piece from the NYT that has a hard on for the UK since Brexit.

The government made unforgivable mistakes last year in flirting with herd immunity and not closing the borders and it s coms strategy is shit but the vaccine program is so far worthy of qualified praise.

A statement from November saying if necessary he second injection can in the extreme be from another vaccine does not mean mixing is going to be the new normal. Its very unlikely anyone's NHS record will go missing so the actual case here may be that there is a shortage of one kind of vaccine . The vaccine strategy has being recommended by the governments own scientists and signed of by the various CMOs.

[tc27]

India approves AZ. Tge Serum Institute already has 100 million dose manufactured so they'll be cracking on with that next week

Great news. Fascinated to see how India gets on distributing it

The vaccine needs two week 'resting' and then QA checks before it can be distributed I understand - so maybe not that quick.

[Openside]

https://t.co/IqMGpRWGOE?amp=1

30% of the student athletes at Ohio State who had covid now have heart damage. Eeesh that's bad.

Boom! Headshot for that tool Bimbo, plus idiot Scots like NL and OS.

“It won’t kill people under 80 or even harm them”

???? WTF?

[Jock42]

The UK is currently no3 in the world in terms of its total population vaccinated, is way ahead of European its peers in rolling it out and is the origin of probably the most effective (in terms of cost and logistics) vaccine.

Some people here need to get a grip...its a hit piece from the NYT that has a hard on for the UK since Brexit.

The government made unforgivable mistakes last year in flirting with herd immunity and not closing the borders and it s coms strategy is shit but the vaccine program is so far worthy of qualified praise.

A statement from November saying if necessary he second injection can in the extreme be from another vaccine does not mean mixing is going to be the new normal. Its very unlikely anyone's NHS record will go missing so the actual case here may be that there is a shortage of one kind of vaccine . The vaccine strategy has being recommended by the governments own scientists and signed of by the various CMOs.

Who are the top 2?

[Openside]

The UK is currently no3 in the world in terms of its total population vaccinated, is way ahead of European its peers in rolling it out and is the origin of probably the most effective (in terms of cost and logistics) vaccine.

Some people here need to get a grip...its a hit piece from the NYT that has a hard on for the UK since Brexit.

The government made unforgivable mistakes last year in flirting with herd immunity and not closing the borders and it s coms strategy is shit but the vaccine program is so far worthy of qualified praise.

A statement from November saying if necessary he second injection can in the extreme be from another vaccine does not mean mixing is going to be the new normal. Its very unlikely anyone's NHS record will go missing so the actual case here may be that there is a shortage of one kind of vaccine . The vaccine strategy has being recommended by the governments own scientists and signed of by the various CMOs.

Who are the top 2?

Israel is top I believe

[Saint]

1 - Israel, 11.55 doses per 100 people
2 - Bahrain, 3.49 per 100
3 - UK, 1.47 per 100

Or put another way, Israel has completed 5.77% of the job, Bahrain 1.75%, and the UK 0.74%

[Hal Jordan]

Lions tour probably goooone, making a "timely decision". Not really important in the context of people dying of a pandemic, but another turd from the gift that keeps shitting.

[frodder]

I predict 1630 Sunday for the inevitable U turn regarding schools from hapless Gav

[Paddington Bear]

Lions tour probably goooone, making a "timely decision". Not really important in the context of people dying of a pandemic, but another turd from the gift that keeps shitting.

Seems pointless without crowds IMHO

[SaintK]

I predict 1630 Sunday for the inevitable U turn regarding schools from hapless Gav

Wouldn't be surprised if it was later tonight. They've just announced the 5th daily record in a row of infections.
Hapless just doesn't begin to describe how useless Williamson is. He's making Grayling look like a statesman

[I like neeps]

I predict 1630 Sunday for the inevitable U turn regarding schools from hapless Gav

Wouldn't be surprised if it was later tonight. They've just announced the 5th daily record in a row of infections.
Hapless just doesn't begin to describe how useless Williamson is. He's making Grayling look like a statesman

It's not Williamson's decision to close schools though surely? I guess he might chose which areas but Johnson will be in charge of a blanket schools closing?

[Paddington Bear]

I predict 1630 Sunday for the inevitable U turn regarding schools from hapless Gav

Wouldn't be surprised if it was later tonight. They've just announced the 5th daily record in a row of infections.
Hapless just doesn't begin to describe how useless Williamson is. He's making Grayling look like a statesman

It's not Williamson's decision to close schools though surely? I guess he might chose which areas but Johnson will be in charge of a blanket schools closing?

I’d assume this is delegated to the Education Sec, otherwise seems a bit pointless to have one

[I like neeps]

Wouldn't be surprised if it was later tonight. They've just announced the 5th daily record in a row of infections.
Hapless just doesn't begin to describe how useless Williamson is. He's making Grayling look like a statesman

It's not Williamson's decision to close schools though surely? I guess he might chose which areas but Johnson will be in charge of a blanket schools closing?

I’d assume this is delegated to the Education Sec, otherwise seems a bit pointless to have one

National education strategy and locking down schools for public health are completely different tbf.

Secretary for Sport isn't deciding which sports are allowed, Sunak isn't ultimately responsible for shutting down shops and offices etc.

[SaintK]

Wouldn't be surprised if it was later tonight. They've just announced the 5th daily record in a row of infections.
Hapless just doesn't begin to describe how useless Williamson is. He's making Grayling look like a statesman

It's not Williamson's decision to close schools though surely? I guess he might chose which areas but Johnson will be in charge of a blanket schools closing?

I’d assume this is delegated to the Education Sec, otherwise seems a bit pointless to have one

There’s a Cabinet called for this evening. Should imagine the decision one way or the other will be confirmed then

[Raggs]

The numbers are just scary right now. They'll have the dated information on when these tests have been done, when the suspected infection was etc I suppose, so may see a decrease occurring (despite it not showing for us), but hard lockdown including schools has got to be at the front of their minds now.

[Sandstorm]

Queues for testing in W Berkshire are 5 times longer than they were the week before Xmas.

Positive cases only up slightly, so either people are getting tested because they’re bored, scared or trying to get another 2 weeks off work.

[Paddington Bear]

Surely the message is ‘one more heave’, lockdown through to the end of Feb and vaccinate like mad. There’s light at the end of the tunnel