What are the reasons for Scotland being so historically poor in the Six Nations?

[PlanetGlyndwr]

despite being the reigning five nations champions they have had a horrid twenty years in the six nations why is this?

[Chrysoprase]

Sympathy nibble - that's fucking rancid by the way

[PlanetGlyndwr]

Sympathy nibble - that's fucking rancid by the way

[Niegs]

What's going on below pro level that forces them to be World Rugby's biggest poachers?

[laurent]

Smallest player base / pro base. (Italy excepted)

[sockwithaticket]

Having Andy Robinson as head coach explains a few years.

[Sandstorm]

England's fault probably.

[Torquemada 1420]

despite being the reigning five nations champions they have had a horrid twenty years in the six nations why is this?

Having same number of toes as competing nations threw them.

[Biffer]

Is this a Welshman trying to cause a distraction in advance of them sucking ass for the next ten years?

[PCPhil]

Poor genes.

[Slick]

Oh is it that time of year again. Funny how it creeps up on you

[PlanetGlyndwr]

Is this a Welshman trying to cause a distraction in advance of them sucking ass for the next ten years?

the 90s are back for Welsh rugby i'm not going to dismiss that, although reminiscing over the 4 slams and the 2013 championship should tie us over for the "dark days" that lie ahead.

Meanwhile.. Scottish supporters have to turn back the clock to the last century to remember when they were a relevant force in the rugby sphere.

When you have dinosaurs in blazers calling the shots in the boardrooms of the SRU it's no wonder they've been minnows for the last twenty years, and relying on a couple of victories against Australia as a defence of that label won't change that. they've been utterly pants.

[Caley_Red]

Structure for professionalism was highly suboptimal but the degradation was a lagging factor and became very apparent from 2002 onwards. In the early 2000's- when i was in middle high school- there was no capacity to play good level U16 unless you were at a good private school; I played in an excellent junior team but there were only a few of us that didn't go to private schools (where school is the primary team for most youngsters) which meant that, at age 13, there was no where for us to play. I then dropped out of playing until I was 16 and played other sports in the interim before playing U18 and men's rugby thereafter (but your development is permanently stunted as a result)

I understand a lot of these issues have been fixed and the structure is much better for public schools as evidenced by the success of Hawick, Bellbaxter etc. in the schools cup, however, this will take time to work its way through.

Tangentially related but my view is that the playing numbers will not increase significantly without the game transitioning to a Summer sport.

[FujiKiwi]

I expect Scotland to do very well in the 2023 RWC, sparked by tour de force performances from their virtuoso halfback and inspiring captain, Finlay Christie.

[Tichtheid]

Accurate numbers are difficult to come by but I read that our player base is much smaller than Italy's and we are around the same as Sri Lanka in terms of numbers.

There was a perfect storm in Scotland when professionalism was mooted, I remember an article in the Scotsman newspaper about Scotland captain David Sole retiring after hearing that he'd been described by some of the blazers as "a cancer at the heart of the game" when he and Finlay Calder were lobbying on the players' behalf.
Geech recalls a moment when it all got too much for him at the SRU, he overheard one of those blazers saying, "I'm The Milkman, I milk the SRU for all it's worth". This was a "joke" about getting his grubby hands on tickets and free hospitality for his corporate clients, ie making money off the players they thought weren't worthy of being payed.

There is still a big underlying resentment towards professionalism, you only have to read the comments under the articles in The Offside Line to see it's still there.

In the 80s there was the problem whereby teachers were coaching several afternoons per week after school and giving up their Saturday morning to be with the school team - some schools ran more than one team per year, ours did in first year.
When the teachers refused to give up their time for free rugby was "outsourced" to clubs, some were more successful than others. I didn't go to a fee paying school, but imo those institutions did more than almost anyone in keeping rugby alive during that time, the sport could easily have died out in Scotland without them. I'm not sure we've ever quite recovered from that.

A BBC insider in Glasgow once said that rugby was faced with a huge inverted snobbery by the sports broadcasters in Scotland, they hated the "public schoolboys game", so it got minimal coverage.

The initial attempts at setting up pro teams was a mess, no one in the supposed heartlands of the Borders were turning up to watch, there was never a consensus of where the team should play, eventually two of the teams were folded and assimilated into the sides from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The SRU put a lot of money into building a new national stadium, the debt crippled any attempt to fund the pro teams. Edinburgh were sold, sort of, but that didn't go well and the team was brought back under central control.

We've only just really started proper academies in the last few years, where players are given a pathway to the professional game. There is now a level below the pro teams called the Super 6, the idea being that some players who develop late and missed the academy system will till get a chance to be seen because the previous Premiership level was not fit for purpose in getting players ready for the step up. I'm told the conditioning of these guys is far superior to that seen in the Premiership.

So, we are making forward steps, but so is everyone else and when you start with a twenty five year handicap you are always going to be playing catch up.

[clydecloggie]

Accurate numbers are difficult to come by but I read that our player base is much smaller than Italy's and we are around the same as Sri Lanka in terms of numbers.

There was a perfect storm in Scotland when professionalism was mooted, I remember an article in the Scotsman newspaper about Scotland captain David Sole retiring after hearing that he'd been described by some of the blazers as "a cancer at the heart of the game" when he and Finlay Calder were lobbying on the players' behalf.
Geech recalls a moment when it all got too much for him at the SRU, he overheard one of those blazers saying, "I'm The Milkman, I milk the SRU for all it's worth". This was a "joke" about getting his grubby hands on tickets and free hospitality for his corporate clients, ie making money off the players they thought weren't worthy of being payed.

There is still a big underlying resentment towards professionalism, you only have to read the comments under the articles in The Offside Line to see it's still there.

In the 80s there was the problem whereby teachers were coaching several afternoons per week after school and giving up their Saturday morning to be with the school team - some schools ran more than one team per year, ours did in first year.
When the teachers refused to give up their time for free rugby was "outsourced" to clubs, some were more successful than others. I didn't go to a fee paying school, but imo those institutions did more than almost anyone in keeping rugby alive during that time, the sport could easily have died out in Scotland without them. I'm not sure we've ever quite recovered from that.

A BBC insider in Glasgow once said that rugby was faced with a huge inverted snobbery by the sports broadcasters in Scotland, they hated the "public schoolboys game", so it got minimal coverage.

The initial attempts at setting up pro teams was a mess, no one in the supposed heartlands of the Borders were turning up to watch, there was never a consensus of where the team should play, eventually two of the teams were folded and assimilated into the sides from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The SRU put a lot of money into building a new national stadium, the debt crippled any attempt to fund the pro teams. Edinburgh were sold, sort of, but that didn't go well and the team was brought back under central control.

We've only just really started proper academies in the last few years, where players are given a pathway to the professional game. There is now a level below the pro teams called the Super 6, the idea being that some players who develop late and missed the academy system will till get a chance to be seen because the previous Premiership level was not fit for purpose in getting players ready for the step up. I'm told the conditioning of these guys is far superior to that seen in the Premiership.

So, we are making forward steps, but so is everyone else and when you start with a twenty five year handicap you are always going to be playing catch up.

/EOT.

Pretty much explains it all.

[Slick]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

[Caley_Red]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

The best way to deal with wanky questions is to simply answer them. I'm sure he was secretly hoping for a pile-on but the longest suffering posters on the board resisted that temptation, perhaps reflecting our (dreadful) settled status in the pro era.

[Yr Alban]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

The best way to deal with wanky questions is to simply answer them. I'm sure he was secretly hoping for a pile-on but the longest suffering posters on the board resisted that temptation, perhaps reflecting our (dreadful) settled status in the pro era.

Quite. There are plenty reasons and they have been given.

Finding it more than a little ironic that this comes from a Welsh poster, given that Wales had their own long period in the doldrums not all that long ago.

[Caley_Red]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

The best way to deal with wanky questions is to simply answer them. I'm sure he was secretly hoping for a pile-on but the longest suffering posters on the board resisted that temptation, perhaps reflecting our (dreadful) settled status in the pro era.

Quite. There are plenty reasons and they have been given.

Finding it more than a little ironic that this comes from a Welsh poster, given that Wales had their own long period in the doldrums not all that long ago.

It's hard when your nation's primary fame lies in its (admittedly excellent) rugby history. Thankfully, our national character relies on many more facets. Happy to let the OP have this over us: only way is comparatively up.

[Begbie]

Accurate numbers are difficult to come by but I read that our player base is much smaller than Italy's and we are around the same as Sri Lanka in terms of numbers.

There was a perfect storm in Scotland when professionalism was mooted, I remember an article in the Scotsman newspaper about Scotland captain David Sole retiring after hearing that he'd been described by some of the blazers as "a cancer at the heart of the game" when he and Finlay Calder were lobbying on the players' behalf.
Geech recalls a moment when it all got too much for him at the SRU, he overheard one of those blazers saying, "I'm The Milkman, I milk the SRU for all it's worth". This was a "joke" about getting his grubby hands on tickets and free hospitality for his corporate clients, ie making money off the players they thought weren't worthy of being payed.

There is still a big underlying resentment towards professionalism, you only have to read the comments under the articles in The Offside Line to see it's still there.

In the 80s there was the problem whereby teachers were coaching several afternoons per week after school and giving up their Saturday morning to be with the school team - some schools ran more than one team per year, ours did in first year.
When the teachers refused to give up their time for free rugby was "outsourced" to clubs, some were more successful than others. I didn't go to a fee paying school, but imo those institutions did more than almost anyone in keeping rugby alive during that time, the sport could easily have died out in Scotland without them. I'm not sure we've ever quite recovered from that.

A BBC insider in Glasgow once said that rugby was faced with a huge inverted snobbery by the sports broadcasters in Scotland, they hated the "public schoolboys game", so it got minimal coverage.

The initial attempts at setting up pro teams was a mess, no one in the supposed heartlands of the Borders were turning up to watch, there was never a consensus of where the team should play, eventually two of the teams were folded and assimilated into the sides from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The SRU put a lot of money into building a new national stadium, the debt crippled any attempt to fund the pro teams. Edinburgh were sold, sort of, but that didn't go well and the team was brought back under central control.

We've only just really started proper academies in the last few years, where players are given a pathway to the professional game. There is now a level below the pro teams called the Super 6, the idea being that some players who develop late and missed the academy system will till get a chance to be seen because the previous Premiership level was not fit for purpose in getting players ready for the step up. I'm told the conditioning of these guys is far superior to that seen in the Premiership.

So, we are making forward steps, but so is everyone else and when you start with a twenty five year handicap you are always going to be playing catch up.

Good answer. It's worth looking up the stories from when Budge Poutney quit as well. Pro players being given soup and a roll after training FFS
We went in to professionalism with a blind fold on and fingers in our ears and stayed like that for far too long.

[JM2K6]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Is it a defanged P.T.?

Or uh Da iawn diolch (who might also be PT)?

[Slick]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Is it a defanged P.T.?

Or uh Da iawn diolch (who might also be PT)?

Think that's the one. What's PT?

[JM2K6]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Is it a defanged P.T.?

Or uh Da iawn diolch (who might also be PT)?

Think that's the one. What's PT?

A very angry Welshman who knew his rugby and on the occasions he wasn't trying his hardest to be a genuine cunt was actually alright to chat to.

[C69]

Well this is nice.

Scotland beat Wales last time out and will probably do so again this season.

[PCPhil]

Really good write up Titcheid. Not so long that everyone gives up but contains some good stuff.

I suppose the only nation with working class roots in the game is W..Wa....Wales (there I said it).
England has enough posh kids historically to be competitive. Don't know why Ireland have grown strong in recent years but I suppose with football team scraping along then the only slightly global game they can attach glamour to is Rugby.
Poor old Scotland with no historical roots in the game, detroying the borders heartland and with blazers holding their noses aginst the oiks were doomed.

[Yr Alban]

Really good write up Titcheid. Not so long that everyone gives up but contains some good stuff.

I suppose the only nation with working class roots in the game is W..Wa....Wales (there I said it).
England has enough posh kids historically to be competitive. Don't know why Ireland have grown strong in recent years but I suppose with football team scraping along then the only slightly global game they can attach glamour to is Rugby.
Poor old Scotland with no historical roots in the game, detroying the borders heartland and with blazers holding their noses aginst the oiks were doomed.

I believe rugby is the only fully professional sport in Ireland. Which has to help. Also, it’s been raised before, but Scotland were incredibly unfortunate with the timing of the game going pro, and Ireland were the exact opposite. When everything changed, the SRU had just gone into massive debt to upgrade Murrayfield and were utterly skint. The IRFU had spent years faffing about, not making a decision about Lansdowne Rd, and had some money in the kitty to invest in setting up their provincial teams. They then had some early successes, and were able to generate more interest and build a fan base. I’m not saying that the SRU weren’t hopeless and incompetent as well - that’s a given - but there was no money.

[Punter15]

Accurate numbers are difficult to come by but I read that our player base is much smaller than Italy's and we are around the same as Sri Lanka in terms of numbers.

There was a perfect storm in Scotland when professionalism was mooted, I remember an article in the Scotsman newspaper about Scotland captain David Sole retiring after hearing that he'd been described by some of the blazers as "a cancer at the heart of the game" when he and Finlay Calder were lobbying on the players' behalf.
Geech recalls a moment when it all got too much for him at the SRU, he overheard one of those blazers saying, "I'm The Milkman, I milk the SRU for all it's worth". This was a "joke" about getting his grubby hands on tickets and free hospitality for his corporate clients, ie making money off the players they thought weren't worthy of being payed.

There is still a big underlying resentment towards professionalism, you only have to read the comments under the articles in The Offside Line to see it's still there.

In the 80s there was the problem whereby teachers were coaching several afternoons per week after school and giving up their Saturday morning to be with the school team - some schools ran more than one team per year, ours did in first year.
When the teachers refused to give up their time for free rugby was "outsourced" to clubs, some were more successful than others. I didn't go to a fee paying school, but imo those institutions did more than almost anyone in keeping rugby alive during that time, the sport could easily have died out in Scotland without them. I'm not sure we've ever quite recovered from that.

A BBC insider in Glasgow once said that rugby was faced with a huge inverted snobbery by the sports broadcasters in Scotland, they hated the "public schoolboys game", so it got minimal coverage.

The initial attempts at setting up pro teams was a mess, no one in the supposed heartlands of the Borders were turning up to watch, there was never a consensus of where the team should play, eventually two of the teams were folded and assimilated into the sides from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The SRU put a lot of money into building a new national stadium, the debt crippled any attempt to fund the pro teams. Edinburgh were sold, sort of, but that didn't go well and the team was brought back under central control.

We've only just really started proper academies in the last few years, where players are given a pathway to the professional game. There is now a level below the pro teams called the Super 6, the idea being that some players who develop late and missed the academy system will till get a chance to be seen because the previous Premiership level was not fit for purpose in getting players ready for the step up. I'm told the conditioning of these guys is far superior to that seen in the Premiership.

So, we are making forward steps, but so is everyone else and when you start with a twenty five year handicap you are always going to be playing catch up.

Good answer. It's worth looking up the stories from when Budge Poutney quit as well. Pro players being given soup and a roll after training FFS
We went in to professionalism with a blind fold on and fingers in our ears and stayed like that for far too long.

During that period, the SRU made the RFU look competent and professional which is quite some achievement.

Losing Budge over a £6 tie was a real low point.

[Kawazaki]

Accurate numbers are difficult to come by but I read that our player base is much smaller than Italy's and we are around the same as Sri Lanka in terms of numbers.

There was a perfect storm in Scotland when professionalism was mooted, I remember an article in the Scotsman newspaper about Scotland captain David Sole retiring after hearing that he'd been described by some of the blazers as "a cancer at the heart of the game" when he and Finlay Calder were lobbying on the players' behalf.
Geech recalls a moment when it all got too much for him at the SRU, he overheard one of those blazers saying, "I'm The Milkman, I milk the SRU for all it's worth". This was a "joke" about getting his grubby hands on tickets and free hospitality for his corporate clients, ie making money off the players they thought weren't worthy of being payed.

There is still a big underlying resentment towards professionalism, you only have to read the comments under the articles in The Offside Line to see it's still there.

In the 80s there was the problem whereby teachers were coaching several afternoons per week after school and giving up their Saturday morning to be with the school team - some schools ran more than one team per year, ours did in first year.
When the teachers refused to give up their time for free rugby was "outsourced" to clubs, some were more successful than others. I didn't go to a fee paying school, but imo those institutions did more than almost anyone in keeping rugby alive during that time, the sport could easily have died out in Scotland without them. I'm not sure we've ever quite recovered from that.

A BBC insider in Glasgow once said that rugby was faced with a huge inverted snobbery by the sports broadcasters in Scotland, they hated the "public schoolboys game", so it got minimal coverage.

The initial attempts at setting up pro teams was a mess, no one in the supposed heartlands of the Borders were turning up to watch, there was never a consensus of where the team should play, eventually two of the teams were folded and assimilated into the sides from Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The SRU put a lot of money into building a new national stadium, the debt crippled any attempt to fund the pro teams. Edinburgh were sold, sort of, but that didn't go well and the team was brought back under central control.

We've only just really started proper academies in the last few years, where players are given a pathway to the professional game. There is now a level below the pro teams called the Super 6, the idea being that some players who develop late and missed the academy system will till get a chance to be seen because the previous Premiership level was not fit for purpose in getting players ready for the step up. I'm told the conditioning of these guys is far superior to that seen in the Premiership.

So, we are making forward steps, but so is everyone else and when you start with a twenty five year handicap you are always going to be playing catch up.

The Milkman is now the CEO. £455,000 basic salary plus a £478,000 bonus. That's a lot of milk.

[Slick]

In fairness, he was brought in to sort out the financials and he has done that

[PlanetGlyndwr]

Well this is nice.

Scotland beat Wales last time out and will probably do so again this season.

The 90s are back! get used to it boybach

[C69]

Well this is nice.

Scotland beat Wales last time out and will probably do so again this season.

The 90s are back! get used to it boybach

We are a shitter version of Scotland now.
At least I have the memories

[Kawazaki]

In fairness, he was brought in to sort out the financials and he has done that

He certainly understands how to move money out of Scottish rugby.

[Openside]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Isn't it Toga ?

[Slick]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Isn't it Toga ?

Kawasaki is Toga

[RichieRich89]

The trouble with Scotland is that it's full of Scots.

[Slick]

Tish

[Slick]

Boom

[tc27]

@tichtheid excellent write up.

[dkm57]

Tichthied sums it up very well.

I seem to remember at the time a lot of the problem was the blazers from the Borders clubs, stuck in an 1880s timewarp and the parochialism that meant that in an area which could have had a very successful Pro team it was never going to be allowed to thrive. An area including once magnificent and fearsome clubs like Gala, Hawick, Melrose and Selkirk now have a single Super 6 side.

The Shamatuerism in NZ, England and Wales was obvious to all, but our gallant ostriches just grumped and huffed with their heads up their @rses hoping it would all go away. So Scotland started the professional era at least 20 years behind everyone else, mostly the wrong people in charge and have been struggling to catch up ever since further handicapped by having the least resources of any of the leading rugby naations.