G'wan Australia

Where goats go to escape
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Ymx
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-australia-55760673


Interesting situation.

Google’s threat suggests they’re saying they’re the bigger player here, bigger than a country. And will hurt Australia more than Aus can hurt them.

Google has threatened to remove its search engine from Australia over the nation's attempt to make the tech giant share royalties with news publishers.

Australia is introducing a world-first law to make Google, Facebook and potentially other tech companies pay media outlets for their news content.

But the US firms have fought back, warning the law would make them withdraw some of their services.

Australian PM Scott Morrison said lawmakers would not yield to "threats".

Australia is far from Google's largest market, but the proposed news code is seen as a possible global test case for how governments could seek to regulate big tech firms.

Tech firms have faced increasing pressure to pay for news content in other countries, including France, where Google struck a landmark deal with media outlets on Thursday.

In Australia, the proposed news code would tie Google and Facebook to mediated negotiations with publishers over the value of news content, if no agreement could be reached first.

Google Australia managing director Mel Silva told a Senate hearing on Friday that the laws were "unworkable".

"If this version of the code were to become law, it would give us no real choice but to stop making Google Search available in Australia," she said.

Could Google really leave Australia?
Australia rebukes Google for blocking local search results
Google accused of misinformation in Australia row
But lawmakers challenged this, accusing Google of "blackmail" and bullying Australia for raising the reform.

Mr Morrison said his government remained committed to progressing the laws through parliament this year.

"Let me be clear: Australia makes our rules for things you can do in Australia. That's done in our parliament," he told reporters on Friday.

Why is Australia pushing this law?

Google is the dominant search engine in Australia and has been described by the government as a near-essential utility, with little market competition.

The government has argued that because the tech platforms gain customers from people who want to read the news, the tech giants should pay newsrooms a "fair" amount for their journalism.

In addition, it has argued that the financial support is needed for Australia's embattled news industry because a strong media is vital to democracy.

Media companies, including News Corp Australia, a unit of Rupert Murdoch's media empire, have lobbied hard for the government to force tech firms to the negotiating table amid a long-term decline in advertising revenue.
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Kawazaki
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Good luck Australia. I hope they succeed.

What have the French negotiated?
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Ymx
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Not sure, this is all new to me.

Found this

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/google- ... -news.html

Google agrees to pay French publishers for news
PUBLISHED THU, JAN 21 20219:12 AM ESTUPDATED THU, JAN 21 202111:56 AM EST
Ryan Browne

KEY POINTS
- The agreement comes after several months of talks between Google France and France’s Alliance de la Presse d’Information Generale.

- Google said it would negotiate individual licenses with members of the alliance.

- France’s competition regulator ruled last year that Google must pay publishing firms and news agencies for reusing their content.
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laurent
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The French have implemented a Eu directive into law.

Google has to pay for content used (mostly Google news). Google tried to force the government hand by saying they'll not pay and use only titles instead of snippets. This was rebuked.

I don't have all the details but It's likely to be used as a template for the rest of the EU
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Ymx
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laurent wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:49 am The French have implemented a Eu directive into law.

Google has to pay for content used (mostly Google news). Google tried to force the government hand by saying they'll not pay and use only titles instead of snippets. This was rebuked.

I don't have all the details but It's likely to be used as a template for the rest of the EU
His was it rebuked? Presumably google could have just shown less or even nothing from media sites within their rights. Or are you saying the French even refused google to show a headline.

Interesting how less aggressive they’ve been with France than with Australia.

They’ve not just said - they’ll not host or show any content on certain Aus media sites. Which would have been a proportionate measure. They have told Australia they’ll stop google search altogether in Aus.
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Ymx
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And surely this hugely exposes Twitter. Where it hosts article headlines, lead paragraphs, images.
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Kawazaki
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Does Google generate content from news sites and pass it off as their own or do they supply links to the original source and a short precis of news stories that people can click on to get more detail? If it's the former then that's copywrite theft, if it's the latter then that's how search engines work.

What shade of grey have I missed here?
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Ymx
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I’m still trying to figure it out myself. Whether it’s just search news results or whether it’s something else.

https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/01/googl ... s-showcase

Think it’s the amp thing.
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Ymx
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For example this link

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

Is google hosted.
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Ymx
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Although the Australia stance may be more aggressive

What does Google argue?

Ms Silva said the laws would set "an untenable precedent for our businesses and the digital economy" if Google had to pay for link and search results.

This was not compatible with the free-flowing share of information online or "how the internet works", she argued.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55760673

We do not see a way, with the financial and operational risks, that we could continue to offer a service in Australia," she said.
Last week, Google confirmed it was blocking Australian news sites from its search results for about 1% of local users. It said it was an experiment to test the value of Australian news services.
Facebook last year also threatened to stop Australian users from sharing news stories on the platform if the law went ahead.
The social media giant repeated that position on Friday, with executive Simon Milner telling the Senate hearing it was "a potential worse-case consequence".
He said Facebook derived almost no commercial benefit from having news content on its platform.
Both firms have argued that news organisations already get the benefit of platforms driving readers to their websites. Google has also cited its Google News partnership as evidence it supports journalism.


Where the profits go currently

By Katie Silver, business reporter

Australia's news industry is struggling. Of every A$100 (£56; $77) spent on digital advertising, A$81 goes to Google and Facebook. And Covid-19 has only made this worse.
With companies reducing their digital advertising spend, a number of outlets in Australia have been forced to close.
Google, by contrast, has been performing well. Last year the social media giant made almost $4bn from Australia, while paying $45m in tax.
Meanwhile, Australia's competition watchdog has accused both Facebook and Google of misleading Australian consumers about how their data is used, launching inquiries into digital advertising and the app stores market.
2px presentational grey line
What's been the reaction?
Australians have expressed confusion and anger online at both sides. Some have debated whether they could get by using other search engines.
Others have questioned if the removal of the search engine would also remove Gmail, Google Maps and Google Home services - something the company has not made clear.
Earlier this week, US trade representatives urged Australia to drop the laws which they said attempted regulation "to the clear detriment of two US firms".
Sir Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the world wide web, said Australia's plan would make the web "unworkable around the world".
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Torquemada 1420
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You know what ***ts google are when this has me saying "GO AUS"
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laurent
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Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 am
laurent wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:49 am The French have implemented a Eu directive into law.

Google has to pay for content used (mostly Google news). Google tried to force the government hand by saying they'll not pay and use only titles instead of snippets. This was rebuked.

I don't have all the details but It's likely to be used as a template for the rest of the EU
His was it rebuked? Presumably google could have just shown less or even nothing from media sites within their rights. Or are you saying the French even refused google to show a headline.

Interesting how less aggressive they’ve been with France than with Australia.

They’ve not just said - they’ll not host or show any content on certain Aus media sites. Which would have been a proportionate measure. They have told Australia they’ll stop google search altogether in Aus.
Basically French law (Implementing EU Regulation) has forced Google to negotiate a fee With French news organization (The french press is regulated since 1945 were a number of titles got banned)

The rebuke was on google when they "offered" to only display titles rather than pay.
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Ymx
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So google could have just showed nothing instead.
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laurent
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Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:19 pm So google could have just showed nothing instead.
And lost revenue as the Google news app would shut down.
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Openside
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I think there will be more of this thing going on soon. I suspect the govt. will look at. the likes of Google Amazon and FB to stump up revenue based tax rather then profit based tax.
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Ymx
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Openside wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:17 pm I think there will be more of this thing going on soon. I suspect the govt. will look at. the likes of Google Amazon and FB to stump up revenue based tax rather then profit based tax.
Well tax is a separate matter, but indeed.

On a separate thread I was thinking about tax recovery for the UK, and the fact that FANG companies pay f all considering the revenue they bring.

Was looking at this Amazon UK Subsidiary

Image

Take £3b in revenue, and pay just £6m corp tax.
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Guy Smiley
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The Australian government’s stance would carry a bit more validity if their professed concern for media welfare reached as far as the publicly owned and funded ABC and SBS outlets. Those entities are marginalised in the governments current campaign against the tech companies while NewsCorp and other large players are prominently supported.

From this end it appears to be a poorly thought out and clumsy attempt to force the tech companies to pay for enhancing the market reach of those media companies whose business model is struggling. A better move might be to overhaul tax law that allows corporate profit shifting but that would cause too many awkward moments for the cosy relationship the Aus govt enjoys with its corporate minders.
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Ymx
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Yes I just read Murdochs were heavily involved.

So I don’t quite get why google don’t just ditch certain websites from their search if they don’t think it’s worth it. Let the Murdochs shoot an own goal. Rather than cancel everything in Australia.
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Ymx
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Google in the UK

Image

Another member of FANG where the costs are suspiciously close to the revenue.

£1.6 bill in revenue.

£22m in tax.

I’m sure the £1.4 billion in costs is not going to an offshore alphabet subsidiary.

So Google and Amazon together put in £28m tax at present out of the £4.5 billion revenue they take from here.
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Openside
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Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:52 pm Google in the UK

Image

Another member of FANG where the costs are suspiciously close to the revenue.

£1.6 bill in revenue.

£22m in tax.

I’m sure the £1.4 billion in costs is not going to an offshore alphabet subsidiary.

So Google and Amazon together put in £28m tax at present out of the £4.5 billion revenue they take from here.
Its not difficult for the govt to work out a reasonable formula - somewhere in the region of 5-6 % of revenue should cut the mustard after all its all UK money we want staying in the UK!!
Slick
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Openside wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:55 pm
Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:52 pm Google in the UK

Image

Another member of FANG where the costs are suspiciously close to the revenue.

£1.6 bill in revenue.

£22m in tax.

I’m sure the £1.4 billion in costs is not going to an offshore alphabet subsidiary.

So Google and Amazon together put in £28m tax at present out of the £4.5 billion revenue they take from here.
Its not difficult for the govt to work out a reasonable formula - somewhere in the region of 5-6 % of revenue should cut the mustard after all its all UK money we want staying in the UK!!
Together with all those happy fish the good time’s are back!
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Ymx
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:lol: :lol:
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Torquemada 1420
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56107028

Our hopes are with you on this one.
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Ymx
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Torquemada 1420 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:49 am https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56107028

Our hopes are with you on this one.
A dispute over a planned law that would force tech giants Facebook and Google to pay for news content in Australia is being keenly watched worldwide.

The world-first law aims to address the media's loss of advertising revenue to US tech firms.

If passed, the law could have global consequences for tech firms and how we access news online.

But the tech firms have pushed back, with Facebook restricting news content in Australia.

Facebook blocks news content in Australia
Google to pay Murdoch's News Corp for stories

So, what's the row all about?
How did we get here?

There have long been concerns about the market dominance of tech firms over media organisations.
Google is the dominant search engine in Australia and has been described by the government as a near-essential utility, with little market competition.
And social media is a key source of news.
According to the Reuters Institute Digital News Report 2020, 52% of Australians questioned in a survey used social media as a source of news. Facebook ranked top as a social media news source, followed by YouTube and Facebook Messenger.

In 2018, an Australian government regulator launched an inquiry into the impact of Google and Facebook on competition in media and advertising.
Australia plans to make tech giants pay for news
The inquiry by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) found an imbalance of power between tech firms and the media.

Given this, the regulator recommended introducing a code of conduct that it said would level the playing field.
In July last year, the Australian government unveiled a draft law to enforce the code, provoking threats from Facebook and Google to withdraw services in the country.
What is the draft news code?

The draft calls on tech companies to pay for content, though it does not define what it is worth.
The law would enable news companies to negotiate as a bloc with tech firms for content which appears in their news feeds and search results.

If negotiations fail, the matter could be arbitrated by the Australian Communications and Media Authority.
Google search page shown on smartphone
IMAGE COPYRIGHTREUTERS

image captionGoogle has said the law could force it to disable its search tool for Australians
Penalties could be up to A$10m (£5m; $7m) per breach, or 10% of the company's local turnover.

The government says the code will initially focus on Google and Facebook, but could be expanded to other tech companies.

Why is Australia pushing this law?

The government has argued that tech giants should pay newsrooms a "fair" amount for their journalism.
In addition, it has argued that the financial support is needed for Australia's embattled news industry because a strong media is vital to democracy.

Media companies, including News Corp Australia, a unit of Rupert Murdoch's media empire, have lobbied hard for the government to force tech firms to the negotiating table amid a long-term decline in advertising revenue.
Facebook, however, argues "the value exchange between Facebook and publishers runs in favour of the publishers", according to its manager for Australia and New Zealand, William Easton, and generates hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue for the media.

"Publishers willingly choose to post news on Facebook, as it allows them to sell more subscriptions, grow their audiences and increase advertising revenue," he adds.
But Australia's competition watchdog - cited by the AFP news agency - says that for every $100 spent on online advertising, Google captures $53, Facebook takes $28 and the rest is shared among others, taking revenue away from media outlets.

Meanwhile, Google's revenues have increased markedly in the same period, amounting to more than $160bn (£117bn) globally in 2019.

How has Facebook reacted?

Facebook has announced that it will block Australian users from sharing or viewing news.

media captionAustralians react to Facebook's news ban
The social media giant said the proposed law "fundamentally misunderstands the relationship between our platform and publishers".

Facebook said the legislation had left it "facing a stark choice: attempt to comply with a law that ignores the realities of this relationship, or stop allowing news content on our services in Australia".

"With a heavy heart, we are choosing the latter," it said.
Facebook imposed the ban with immediate effect, with users reporting that they were unable to see news articles on the platform.

How has Google reacted?

Google has threatened to remove its search engine from Australia if the proposed law is passed.
But Google has now said it has agreed to pay Mr Murdoch's News Corp for content from news sites across its media empire.

News Corp said it would be sharing its stories in exchange for "significant payments".

Could Google really leave Australia?

As part of the three-year agreement, News Corp said it and Google would collaborate on a subscription platform, share advertising revenue and invest in video journalism on YouTube.

Google has also announced deals with several other Australian media companies, including a reported A$30m annual payment to Nine Entertainment.
It is not clear what action Google intends to take if the proposed law is passed.

Could this set a global precedent?

Some Australian politicians and media experts think it could.
Australian Senator Rex Patrick has told Google: "It's going to go worldwide. Are you going to pull out of every market, are you?"

In contrast to Google and Facebook, Microsoft has thrown its support behind the proposed law.
"The code reasonably attempts to address the bargaining power imbalance between digital platforms and Australian news businesses," the software firm said in February.

There's also a different - but similar - row happening in Europe.

A controversial new EU rule on copyright says that search engines and news aggregators should pay news sites for links.

In France, publishers recently agreed a deal with Google on how that should work.
But only a handful of such deals have been signed with notable French newspapers - making it a very different thing than the wide-ranging, much stricter Australian plans.

And there have been other areas of tension between governments and big tech firms, where governments or blocs such as the EU have looked into regulating the firms in question.

The EU is looking at tackling illegal and harmful content on online platforms and govern their use of customers' data, while in the US, tech firms faced questions from Congress last year on whether they have become too dominant.

After the questions: What next for Big Tech?

Big Tech: Between a rock and a hard place
What happens next?

The law has broad political support and has passed parliament's lower house.
If it gets through the Senate, the code is designed to be reviewed after a year.
Last edited by Ymx on Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Torquemada 1420
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Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 am
laurent wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:49 am The French have implemented a Eu directive into law.

Google has to pay for content used (mostly Google news). Google tried to force the government hand by saying they'll not pay and use only titles instead of snippets. This was rebuked.

I don't have all the details but It's likely to be used as a template for the rest of the EU
His was it rebuked? Presumably google could have just shown less or even nothing from media sites within their rights. Or are you saying the French even refused google to show a headline.

Interesting how less aggressive they’ve been with France than with Australia.

They’ve not just said - they’ll not host or show any content on certain Aus media sites. Which would have been a proportionate measure. They have told Australia they’ll stop google search altogether in Aus.
Aus is a much smaller market than the whole EU. Expediency at play.
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Ymx
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Although it sounds like google has agreed to pay news corp now

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56101859
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Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:21 am
laurent wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:49 am The French have implemented a Eu directive into law.

Google has to pay for content used (mostly Google news). Google tried to force the government hand by saying they'll not pay and use only titles instead of snippets. This was rebuked.

I don't have all the details but It's likely to be used as a template for the rest of the EU
His was it rebuked? Presumably google could have just shown less or even nothing from media sites within their rights. Or are you saying the French even refused google to show a headline.

Interesting how less aggressive they’ve been with France than with Australia.

They’ve not just said - they’ll not host or show any content on certain Aus media sites. Which would have been a proportionate measure. They have told Australia they’ll stop google search altogether in Aus.
They're a privately owned company, they're not obliged to provide their services to everyone. Ideally we'd wean ourselves off our dependence on the tech giants although I won't be the first to do it.
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Ymx
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No they’re not. And many people take all these free products for granted. Not paying for an email and storage and search services seems mad if you were to apply this to any other industry.

Although I’d expect a proportionate response. Ie not showing news corp articles in the search response. And not wrapping them in the amp services.

But they instead threatened to take away the whole search engine. That’s disproportionate.

And to be honest I imagine the news companies might come around to it when they are losing traffic due to it. If it was just there sites being screened from search results.
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Fred merged with the other one
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Guy Smiley
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Ymx wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:59 pm No they’re not. And many people take all these free products for granted. Not paying for an email and storage and search services seems mad if you were to apply this to any other industry.

Although I’d expect a proportionate response. Ie not showing news corp articles in the search response. And not wrapping them in the amp services.

But they instead threatened to take away the whole search engine. That’s disproportionate.

And to be honest I imagine the news companies might come around to it when they are losing traffic due to it. If it was just there sites being screened from search results.
Why not focus on the amp service, as that seems to be the revenue redirection tool? Simply enforce a ban on that mechanism and allow the rest of the engine to run.
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ASMO
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Openside wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:55 pm
Ymx wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:52 pm Google in the UK

Image

Another member of FANG where the costs are suspiciously close to the revenue.

£1.6 bill in revenue.

£22m in tax.

I’m sure the £1.4 billion in costs is not going to an offshore alphabet subsidiary.

So Google and Amazon together put in £28m tax at present out of the £4.5 billion revenue they take from here.
Its not difficult for the govt to work out a reasonable formula - somewhere in the region of 5-6 % of revenue should cut the mustard after all its all UK money we want staying in the UK!!
This bunch of self serving corrupt cunts? You can bet your bottom dollar those that count have their dirty hands in the till and are taking coin precisely so these companies dont pay tax properly
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