Why Aren't Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown Included in Discussions About the All Black Coaching Job?

[coldtowel3478]

I have been lurking this forum for the last three weeks and I had to bite after being absolutely dismayed from reading the amount of misinformation being thrown around from FuijiKiwi regarding Scott Robertson on here. So I'll make my first long post on this forum dedicated to this topic.

Robertson is not simply a product of his players, as much as FuijiKiwi wishes to believe... The Title winning Crusaders squad in 2017 was significantly weaker and much less experienced (almost the entire backline under age of 23 FFS!) than the Lions, Hurricanes, Highlanders and Chiefs on paper.

Also, not many people are aware of this, but in 2007 Robertson transformed (the worst club in Chch) Summer from last to Champions.

Robertson also coached Canterbury to 3/4 titles as head coach between 2013-2016 - during this period his Canterbury squad was plagued with injuries (often 3 players deep in key positions) and subject to the most Cantab players away on All Black duty in modern NPC history.

These simple facts all derail the increasingly lazy and convenient argument that Robertson is merely a product of his players.


For good measure let's compare Robertson and Joseph's records as professional coaches:


Robertson as Canterbury assistant coach (2008-2012): Five titles won.

Robertson as Canterbury head coach (2013-2016): Three titles won.

Robertson with NZ U-20's (2015-2016): One title won - (The first NZ U-20's Title since 2011...)

Robertson as Crusaders head coach (2017-2020): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st* - (We assume after last night...)


Joseph as Wellington assistant coach (2003–2007): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Wellington head coach (2007-2010): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Highlanders coach without Tony Brown (2011-2013): 11th, 9th, 14th...

Joseph as Highlanders coach with Tony Brown's assistance (2014-2016): 5th, 1st, 3rd


The key conclusion here is that Brown is more responsible for the success of Highlanders and Japan at the 2019 world cup than Joseph.

On the other-hand Robertson has achieved immeasurable success (12 titles in total, and looking like 13 after last night's win over the Blues) without the assistance of a world class assistant coach.

Jamie Joseph has the smartest attack coach and most gifted technical assistant in world rugby - He is half the coach he is without Tony Brown.

Long story short, Scott Robertson has a long history of success as a coach at every level...

Jamie Joseph did not - until Tony Brown came along.

Rennie is in the same boat - Rennie won two titles with the assistance of Wayne Smith, but nothing after Smith left.

He coached Manawatu for 8 years and they finished at the bottom of the table for every year except for 2011, losing 2nd Division finalists.

With three years with Wellington between 2000-2002 Rennie won 1 NPC title, a very solid effort.

Rennie's crowning achievement aside from Chiefs was the 3 consecutive NZ U-20 Titles he oversaw as head coach between 2009-2011.

Managed to get Glasgow to losing finalists in 2018/2019 season. They couldn't manage to reach the playoffs in the 2019/20 season.



Final Power Rankings:


1 - Scott Robertson

2 - Tony Brown

3 - Dave Rennie

4 - Jamie Joseph

That's a very thorough post, and largely convincing. I love the break down of details there. . If Tony Brown is astute as you say he is—essentially the guy that does all the work and smart thinking for which Joseph gets the credit for—why do you think he chooses to stick with such a flawed coach? Surely, if he is as insightful as you suggest, he'd see right through the Joseph charade?

Because they are very effective in tandem.

Their coaching styles compliment each other very well. Joseph with his hard-nosed, no-nonsense approach and Brown with his more gentle demeanor. Has a more laid-back, placid relationship with his players. This compliments the technical work his does with the attack, he's great at getting his players to buy into his plans.

Add in the technical work, Brown does in terms of game-planning, strategy on the behalf of Joseph, allowing Joseph to focus on the more man-management side of things, manufacture as many emotional/psychological gains within his playing group as possible.

He also coaches the forwards.

I never claimed Joseph was a fundamentally flawed coach - rather as a solitary coach, he isn't on the same level as Robertson, Brown or Rennie.

[Jb1981]

Some people are natural assistants - look at Wayne Smith who was far more comfortable in that role than as head coach. Perhaps Tony Brown saw the writing on the wall for Foster’s coming appointment and simply decided that guaranteed offers with Japan and the Highlanders were better than looming unemployment.

[Sandstorm]

Boks say: “Gatland or Joseph please”

[Ymx]

Is Wayne Smith ever coming back to rugby?

What’s the latest on his condition?

Would love to see him back in the mix or at the very least advising. But not to the detriment of his health.

[Mr Bungle]

Some people are natural assistants - look at Wayne Smith who was far more comfortable in that role than as head coach. Perhaps Tony Brown saw the writing on the wall for Foster’s coming appointment and simply decided that guaranteed offers with Japan and the Highlanders were better than looming unemployment.

Years back a friend of Brown’s told me he’d made a conscious move to focus on assistant roles as he thought that was his most probable path to AB rugby. A reasonable move with Hansen, Foster, Rennie, Gatland, Cotter, Schmidt and a rising Robertson all in the mix. Perhaps the fact he recently decided to remain loyal to Joseph was due to him thinking Foster was odds on to get the role, and his tenure may not be a long one.

[coldtowel3478]

Is Wayne Smith ever coming back to rugby?

What’s the latest on his condition?

Would love to see him back in the mix or at the very least advising. But not to the detriment of his health.

He's the currently Director of Rugby for Kobelco Steelers.

[FujiKiwi]

Anyway, here's the team of nameless weaklings and helpless waifs that only Scott Robertson could have guided to success in 2017

Crusaders

15 David Havili, 14 Israel Dagg, 13 Jack Goodhue, 12 Ryan Crotty, 11 Seta Tamanivalu, 10 Richie Mo’unga, 9 Bryn Hall, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Matt Todd, 6 Jordan Taufua, 5 Sam Whitelock (captain), 4 Scott Barrett, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Codie Taylor, 1 Joe Moody.

Replacements: 16 Ben Funnell, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Michael Alaalatoa, 19 Luke Romano, 20 Pete Samu, 21 Mitchell Drummond, 22 Mitchell Hunt, 23 George Bridge.

[coldtowel3478]

Anyway, here's the team of nameless weaklings and helpless waifs that only Scott Robertson could have guided to success in 2017

Crusaders

15 David Havili, 14 Israel Dagg, 13 Jack Goodhue, 12 Ryan Crotty, 11 Seta Tamanivalu, 10 Richie Mo’unga, 9 Bryn Hall, 8 Kieran Read, 7 Matt Todd, 6 Jordan Taufua, 5 Sam Whitelock (captain), 4 Scott Barrett, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Codie Taylor, 1 Joe Moody.

Replacements: 16 Ben Funnell, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Michael Alaalatoa, 19 Luke Romano, 20 Pete Samu, 21 Mitchell Drummond, 22 Mitchell Hunt, 23 George Bridge.

Dagg - an old man at the twilight of his career, no pace, not much to offer at all.

Havili - a rookie under the age of 23.

Goodhue - another rookie under 23, in his first year of Super Rugby. Same for George Bridge.

Mo'unga - another rookie under the age of 23, in just his second year of Super Rugby.

Same for Scott Barrett, Mitchell Drummond, Mitchell Hunt, Pete Samu, all extremely young players at the start of their professional careers.

Bryn Hall - a Blues cast-off who went from being on the most average halfbacks to one of the best in NZ under Robertson's Crusaders environment.

I remember that 2016 very well, all of these players (that played brilliantly under Razor the following years) were utterly useless beforehand.

Change in culture and specific player coaching, can make a huge difference even with mostly the same playing group. Rennie and Smith did exactly the same thing with Chiefs in 2012, after that same playing group (aside from SBW, Cruden etc) finished last in the NZ conference the year before.

[FujiKiwi]

You've cherry picked a couple of young but immensely talented players, and misrepresented others (Scott Barrett was a Crusader since 2014 and already an All Black before 2017).

But look, I'm not going to suggest that Robertson isn't a good coach. I'm willing to admit that he is, while you paint Jamie Joseph as a bumbling fool who has been propped up by Tony Brown all the way.

The main thing is that we're having this discussion, at least, instead of blithely assuming Scott Robertson is the only possible consideration.

[Kiwias]

You've cherry picked a couple of young but immensely talented players, and misrepresented others (Scott Barrett was a Crusader since 2014 and already an All Black before 2017).

But look, I'm not going to suggest that Robertson isn't a good coach. I'm willing to admit that he is, while you paint Jamie Joseph as a bumbling fool who has been propped up by Tony Brown all the way.

The main thing is that we're having this discussion, at least, instead of blithely assuming Scott Robertson is the only possible consideration.

I actually think that you are the only person making that assumption. When Foster's time is up (the sooner the better, unless he proves to be a decent head coach), I expect Joseph and Rennie to be in the conversation along with Robertson and I bet I'm not the only Crusaders fan. Naturally, all bets go out the window if the NZRU fuck up the process again.

[coldtowel3478]

You've cherry picked a couple of young but immensely talented players, and misrepresented others (Scott Barrett was a Crusader since 2014 and already an All Black before 2017).

But look, I'm not going to suggest that Robertson isn't a good coach. I'm willing to admit that he is, while you paint Jamie Joseph as a bumbling fool who has been propped up by Tony Brown all the way.

The main thing is that we're having this discussion, at least, instead of blithely assuming Scott Robertson is the only possible consideration.

No, it's that the agenda you're pushing that Robertson is merely product of his players.

Robertson is not simply a product of world-class Canterbury systems, he is an anomaly.

Keep in mind the first year that Razor started coaching professionally was as forwards coach for Canterbury in 2008 - the first year Canterbury won the NPC title in six years. Then Canterbury won the NPC for the following 3 years with him as assistant coach to Penney. After that he won another NPC as assistant coach to Matson in 2012. In 2013, his first year as head coach, Canterbury again won the NPC title.

Everything he's touched has turned to gold.

[FujiKiwi]

I won't mind if Robertson gets it, not the least because this would likely make beloved Blues coach Leon "Rangitoto" MacDonald part of the All Blacks set up.

[Jb1981]

You've cherry picked a couple of young but immensely talented players, and misrepresented others (Scott Barrett was a Crusader since 2014 and already an All Black before 2017).

But look, I'm not going to suggest that Robertson isn't a good coach. I'm willing to admit that he is, while you paint Jamie Joseph as a bumbling fool who has been propped up by Tony Brown all the way.

The main thing is that we're having this discussion, at least, instead of blithely assuming Scott Robertson is the only possible consideration.

I actually think that you are the only person making that assumption. When Foster's time is up (the sooner the better, unless he proves to be a decent head coach), I expect Joseph and Rennie to be in the conversation along with Robertson and I bet I'm not the only Crusaders fan. Naturally, all bets go out the window if the NZRU fuck up the process again.

Yep, Put me down as another Crusaders fan wanting a process where the best coaches all get a serious look in.

One final point on that 2017 team, Newshub made predictions pre-season for the NZ conference and to a man everyone tipped the Crusaders to come third. That’s a position that may not have even seen them in the playoffs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newshu ... s.amp.html

[FujiKiwi]

Still, for all the contortions being made to downplay the importance of the player resources available to Robertson in regard to his success, the coaching brilliance that got Japan to the quarter final of the RWC has been barely acknowledged here.

[Ymx]

You've cherry picked a couple of young but immensely talented players, and misrepresented others (Scott Barrett was a Crusader since 2014 and already an All Black before 2017).

But look, I'm not going to suggest that Robertson isn't a good coach. I'm willing to admit that he is, while you paint Jamie Joseph as a bumbling fool who has been propped up by Tony Brown all the way.

The main thing is that we're having this discussion, at least, instead of blithely assuming Scott Robertson is the only possible consideration.

I actually think that you are the only person making that assumption. When Foster's time is up (the sooner the better, unless he proves to be a decent head coach), I expect Joseph and Rennie to be in the conversation along with Robertson and I bet I'm not the only Crusaders fan. Naturally, all bets go out the window if the NZRU fuck up the process again.

I’m not releasing my COVID vaccine until Foster is gone.

And currently working on my Covid-20 virus as well.

[FujiKiwi]

One final point on that 2017 team, Newshub made predictions pre-season for the NZ conference and to a man everyone tipped the Crusaders to come third. That’s a position that may not have even seen them in the playoffs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newshu ... s.amp.html

An interesting perspective.

But along with the predictions of a third placing there were caveats.

Tom Bartlett:

As usual, they're stacked with All Blacks so look great on paper

John Day:

The forward pack is the strongest in the competition..

[Kiwias]

I won't mind if Robertson gets it, not the least because this would likely make beloved Blues coach Leon "Rangitoto" MacDonald part of the All Blacks set up.

[Kiwias]

Still, for all the contortions being made to downplay the importance of the player resources available to Robertson in regard to his success, the coaching brilliance that got Japan to the quarter final of the RWC has been barely acknowledged here.

Perhaps it is such a blindingly obvious factor that most of us did not deem it worthy of mention.

[Jb1981]

One final point on that 2017 team, Newshub made predictions pre-season for the NZ conference and to a man everyone tipped the Crusaders to come third. That’s a position that may not have even seen them in the playoffs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newshu ... s.amp.html

An interesting perspective.

But along with the predictions of a third placing there were caveats.

Tom Bartlett:

As usual, they're stacked with All Blacks so look great on paper

John Day:

The forward pack is the strongest in the competition..

Caveats sure, but still tipped to be mid table for the conference.

I will give Joseph and Brown the credit they deserve for what they did with Japan last year. Heading in they targeted the quarters (as they should have in a pool with Scotland, Samoa and Russia) and they achieved that. The win over Ireland was the real surprise and they were well worth that result.

I think you had your answer early though about more discussion now on Robertson - he is the guy that was in the AB race and missed out vs. Joseph who withdrew. He is also coaching in the country and achieving results we see, it’s natural he is more front of mind.

[coldtowel3478]

Still, for all the contortions being made to downplay the importance of the player resources available to Robertson in regard to his success, the coaching brilliance that got Japan to the quarter final of the RWC has been barely acknowledged here.

If you really want to get into the semantics and go down that path.


Eddie Jones had a 71% win ratio with Japan from 48 matches.

Jamie Joseph had a 60% win ratio with Japan from 29 matches.


Not only did Eddie Jones build the foundations for Japan's success beyond 2015, he also had a more impressive record with Japan than Joseph (and he didn't require the best assistant coach in world rugby in Tony Brown) to help him achieve that.

By building on the foundations that Jones set down. I genuinely doubt Japanese rugby is where it is today without Eddie Jones.

Joseph and Brown, are fantastic and have tailored all aspects of their game to the set of players they have, but they couldn't have done it without the foundations that Eddie Jones put in place.

Eddie provided the platform. He transformed Japanese rugby.

Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown did very well, but it's highly unlikely they could've turned around Japanese Rugby the way Eddie did.

[CrazyIslander]

Still, for all the contortions being made to downplay the importance of the player resources available to Robertson in regard to his success, the coaching brilliance that got Japan to the quarter final of the RWC has been barely acknowledged here.

If you really want to get into the semantics and go down that path.


Eddie Jones had a 71% win ratio with Japan from 48 matches.

Jamie Joseph had a 60% win ratio with Japan from 29 matches.


Not only did Eddie Jones build the foundations for Japan's success beyond 2015, he also had a more impressive record with Japan than Joseph (and he didn't require the best assistant coach in world rugby in Tony Brown) to help him achieve that.

By building on the foundations that Jones set down. I genuinely doubt Japanese rugby is where it is today without Eddie Jones.

Joseph and Brown, are fantastic and have tailored all aspects of their game to the set of players they have, but they couldn't have done it without the foundations that Eddie Jones put in place.

Eddie provided the platform. He transformed Japanese rugby.

Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown did very well, but it's highly unlikely they could've turned around Japanese Rugby the way Eddie did.

Debatable that they couldn't. Joseph took the Highlanders to a SR title as well. So its not a one-off success.

[coldtowel3478]

Still, for all the contortions being made to downplay the importance of the player resources available to Robertson in regard to his success, the coaching brilliance that got Japan to the quarter final of the RWC has been barely acknowledged here.

If you really want to get into the semantics and go down that path.


Eddie Jones had a 71% win ratio with Japan from 48 matches.

Jamie Joseph had a 60% win ratio with Japan from 29 matches.


Not only did Eddie Jones build the foundations for Japan's success beyond 2015, he also had a more impressive record with Japan than Joseph (and he didn't require the best assistant coach in world rugby in Tony Brown) to help him achieve that.

By building on the foundations that Jones set down. I genuinely doubt Japanese rugby is where it is today without Eddie Jones.

Joseph and Brown, are fantastic and have tailored all aspects of their game to the set of players they have, but they couldn't have done it without the foundations that Eddie Jones put in place.

Eddie provided the platform. He transformed Japanese rugby.

Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown did very well, but it's highly unlikely they could've turned around Japanese Rugby the way Eddie did.

Debatable that they couldn't. Joseph took the Highlanders to a SR title as well. So its not a one-off success.

You know that Joseph had 5 whole years to turn the Highlanders around into a champion side right?

(The rise only started in 2014 when Brown entered the set-up. The year before the Highlanders had finished 14th in the competition.)

Whereas with Japan, he was handed a ready-made side and benefited from the miracle workings of Steady Eddie.

Look, there's no denying Joseph is a great coach, but FuijiKiwi here is trying to argue that Joseph is the best-qualified head coach for the All Blacks at present, while additionally claiming that Joseph's achievements eclipse every other NZ head coach out there, both of which are unequivocally false.

[CrazyIslander]

If you really want to get into the semantics and go down that path.


Eddie Jones had a 71% win ratio with Japan from 48 matches.

Jamie Joseph had a 60% win ratio with Japan from 29 matches.


Not only did Eddie Jones build the foundations for Japan's success beyond 2015, he also had a more impressive record with Japan than Joseph (and he didn't require the best assistant coach in world rugby in Tony Brown) to help him achieve that.

By building on the foundations that Jones set down. I genuinely doubt Japanese rugby is where it is today without Eddie Jones.

Joseph and Brown, are fantastic and have tailored all aspects of their game to the set of players they have, but they couldn't have done it without the foundations that Eddie Jones put in place.

Eddie provided the platform. He transformed Japanese rugby.

Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown did very well, but it's highly unlikely they could've turned around Japanese Rugby the way Eddie did.

Debatable that they couldn't. Joseph took the Highlanders to a SR title as well. So its not a one-off success.

You know that Joseph had 5 whole years to turn the Highlanders around into a champion side right?

(The rise only started in 2014 when Brown entered the set-up. The year before the Highlanders had finished 14th in the competition.)

Whereas with Japan, he was handed a ready-made side and benefited from the miracle workings of Steady Eddie.

Look, there's no denying Joseph is a great coach, but FuijiKiwi here is trying to argue that Joseph is the best-qualified head coach for the All Blacks at present, while additionally claiming that Joseph's achievements eclipse every other NZ head coach out there, both of which are unequivocally false.

You can make the same of arguments against every other candidates tbh. Robertson had a team full of ABs, etc. It's not clear cut who has the best record imo.

[coldtowel3478]

Robertson had a team full of ABs, etc

Gee.. aren't you riddled with cliches? Definitely hadn't heard that one before.

Again more mis-information.

It's not Robertson's fault that he developed overwhelmingly the most All Blacks from his Super Rugby squad than every other NZ Super Rugby coach during the last 4 years.

Goodhue, Mo'unga, Hall, Ennor, Bridge, Cameron, Havili, Reece, Taufua, Drummond, Grace, Christie, Jordan (soon to be capped 2020-2021)

Are you also going to discredit Rennie's Chiefs sides because All Blacks such as Mackenzie, Rettalick, ALB, Weber, etc.. were developed by Rennie himself and only became All Blacks during his Chiefs tenure?

Are you going to discredit Joseph's Highlanders sides because All Blacks such as Naholo, Fekitoa, Smith, Dixon, Coltman, etc.. were developed by Joseph himself and only became All Blacks during his Highlanders tenure?

One Advantage that Robertson has over Joseph is that Robertson's been at the coal-face, and he's relevant to and personally familiar with, having genuine connections to roughly 80% of all current and future All Black contenders today - he's already coached many of the U-20 boys during 2015-2016 that are running around in Super Rugby currently and for the All Blacks, such as Jordan, Clarke, Gibson, Christie, Ioane brothers, Jacobson, Moli, Lienert-Brown, Goodhue, Faiane, Dunshea etc..

So as well as being familiar with many of the current All Black squad through the Crusaders, he also is familiar with many of the players from coaching them through the NZ-U20's.

Joseph does not have this advantage of familiarity/relevance with the majority of players that will be making up an All Blacks squad between 2020-2023. Robertson does.

Robertson already has strong connections with every young top level All Black right now, that will be key players going into the 2023 world cup. Mo'unga, Perenara, ALB, Cane, Laulala, Ioane, Taylor, B.Barrett, J.Barrett, S.Barrett, Goodhue, Laumape, Mackenzie, Ardie Savea etc..

You will notice Razor catching up with those mentioned non-Crusader All Blacks after every Super Rugby match. He is extremely well-informed, relevant and up-to-date with the coal-face of NZ Rugby right now.

No other coach in NZ carries the critical insights Robertson currently possesses, with regards to his unbridled knowledge, technical nous and understanding of those players that have previously and are continuing to come through the systems.

Yet another reason why Robertson is (currently) extremely better placed and more suited for the All Blacks position than Joseph is right now.

[Gumboot]

You know that Joseph had 5 whole years to turn the Highlanders around into a champion side right?

(The rise only started in 2014 when Brown entered the set-up. The year before the Highlanders had finished 14th in the competition.)

Whereas with Japan, he was handed a ready-made side and benefited from the miracle workings of Steady Eddie.

Perhaps. Eddie may be a miracle worker with some international sides (though notably not with his own country), but I think you're being a bit harsh on Joseph and Brown's achievements with Japan. Eddie may have "laid the foundations" but the match-day squad that beat Ireland last year contained only 9 of the side that beat SA in 2015.

[HouseofPane]

Id take JJ and TB working together at the Highlanders again in an absolute heartbeat - such an exciting team to watch under those two! That aside, Robertson should have been ABs coach, because he's...good. As many have pointed out though, he's still young and will surely get his turn!

[FujiKiwi]

coldtowel still hellbent on insisting the record of a proven international coach should be discounted based on another coach’s success at Super level.

[coldtowel3478]

coldtowel still hellbent on insisting the record of a proven international coach should be discounted based on another coach’s success at Super level.

I thought I already showed you a comparison of their overall coaching history. Do you need to look at it again?

Robertson clearly has a better overall and more impressive track record than Joseph (or any other current NZ coach for that matter), only equal to the great Wayne Smith, and most identical to Sir Graham Henry:

In the first gig of his coaching career... Robertson transformed (the dead worst-club in Chch - Sumner) basket-case from last to Premier Champions.

Robertson coached Canterbury to 3/4 titles as head coach between 2013-2016 - during this period the Canterbury squad was plagued with injuries to an unprecedented degree (often 3 players deep in key positions) and subject to the most Cantab players away on All Black duty in modern NPC history...


Robertson as Canterbury assistant coach (2008-2012): Five titles won.

Robertson as Canterbury head coach (2013-2016): Three titles won.

Robertson with NZ U-20's (2015-2016): One title won - (The first NZ U-20's Title since 2011...)

Robertson as Crusaders head coach (2017-2021): 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st*, - and still one-year left on his contract.

95% win percentage with All Black under 20's.



Joseph as Wellington assistant coach (2003–2007): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Wellington head coach (2007-2010): Zero titles won.

Joseph as Highlanders coach without Tony Brown (2011-2013): 11th, 9th, 14th...

Joseph as Highlanders coach with Tony Brown's assistance (2014-2016): 5th, 1st, 3rd

60% win percentage with Japan.

[FujiKiwi]

Right. You wouldn't want to dig down into the data of the players available...

Sure. In 2017 only Scott Robertson could have scraped together a decent front row given Owen Franks, Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Wyatt Crockett. Only he could have forged a locking combination from the inexperienced trio of Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano and Scott Barrett. Who else could have found a way to use loose forwards Kieran Read, Matt Todd and Jordan Taufua effectively?

You have an intellectually bankrupt argument, and I am pretty sure you know it. Hence the long winded efforts at obfuscation and misdirection.

I'm done with the discussion for now. Like others have said, while interesting, it's all hypothetical at the moment. If Robertson is given the job in 2022, I will celebrate it as a huge improvement. If Jamie Joesph is given a fair go, and credit where it's due, that will be the icing on the cake.

[coldtowel3478]

Right. You wouldn't want to dig down into the data of the players available...

Sure. In 2017 only Scott Robertson could have scraped together a decent front row given Owen Franks, Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Wyatt Crockett. Only he could have forged a locking combination from the inexperienced trio of Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano and Scott Barrett. Who else could have found a way to use loose forwards Kieran Read, Matt Todd and Jordan Taufua effectively?

You have an intellectually bankrupt argument, and I am pretty sure you know it. Hence the long winded efforts at obfuscation and misdirection.

I'm done with the discussion for now. Like others have said, while interesting, it's all hypothetical at the moment. If Robertson is given the job in 2022, I will celebrate it as a huge improvement. If Jamie Joesph is given a fair go, and credit where it's due, that will be the icing on the cake.

I don't think you realize just how clueless you sound, do you?

It's as if you believe Crusaders are the only Super Rugby team with quality front-rowers, loose-forwards, etc.. In that 2017 season, The Hurricanes, Chiefs, Lions and Highlanders squads were all significantly stronger, more well-rounded and multifaceted than the Crusaders on paper.

The Crusaders obliterated the defending champion Hurricanes stacked with unprecedented generational talent year-after-year, obliterated the Dave Rennie coached Chiefs (a team that had beaten Wales 40-7 that same year) full of world class players such as Laulala, Cruden, Rettalick, Bird, Messam, Lowe, Mackenzie, Cane, Atu Moli, ALB, Pulu, Kerr-Barlow, Charlie Ngatai etc.. They overcame the Highlanders of 2017 (that Joseph and Brown had built-up together over 6 years into an unbreachable juggernaut with minimal weaknesses across the board) on both occasions.

Under Robertson the Crusaders have only lost something like 3 of their last 46 matches.

They've only lost 4 games in total to NZ Super Rugby teams since Robertson took over 4 years ago - teams which are well-par with the top international rugby sides (as you know with the staggering depth of NZ rugby player stocks during the last world cup cycle) in world rugby.

The Highlanders beat the British Lions, The Hurricanes drew with the Lions, The Blues also beat the Lions.. And the Chiefs also proved by smashing a near full strength Wales 40-7, that the individual NZ Super Rugby sides would themselves rank in the top 7, tier-one international teams in world rugby.

Super Rugby is not walk in the park. You have to be an extremely Astute/Innovative coach to put away teams like the Hurricanes, Blues, Chiefs, Highlanders on a weekly basis - as comprehensively as the Crusaders have managed during Robertson's tenure.

The thing is.. the Crusaders haven't been simply winning over 90% of their games under Robertson, they've also been winning and often putting an excess of 40 points in the process - more often than not against staggeringly talented NZ teams that would challenge most international sides.

The detractors like you...claim Robertson has an armchair ride when in-fact the opposite is true. NZ franchise derbies are the highest quality of rugby in the world, bar-none. Nada, Zilch.

Robertson's record coaching against NZ sides is phenomenal.

He's only lost 4 matches in total, which is god-tier coaching considering the standard of rugby and talent that is on display in the NZ franchise derbies.

And it's not like the Crusaders are winning by default because of the talent they have - the Chiefs are stacked, basically on the same level as the Crusaders, yet they aren't performing - remember in February most of the pundits were predicting Chiefs title in 2020 based on the strength of their
overall squad.

In 2017 Robertson on the road to the title, overcame some of the strongest Hurricanes, Highlanders and Chiefs sides in Super Rugby history, with a very green, inexperienced Crusaders side. Then he went and did it over again, and again.

It's clear you can't survive off talent alone and that only the most innovative coaches will go all the distance in the cut-throat, unforgiving competition that is Super Rugby Aotearoa. This is why just like Gatland, Hansen too would struggle as a head coach in Super Rugby against NZ sides.

Up against the very best coaches, the very best talent, and the highest standard of rugby anywhere in the world, only the most innovative, cutting-edge and progressive managers/tacticians could ever manage to achieve the consistency that we've witnessed from Crusaders between 2017-2020..

Robertson sits at the highest-rung of that select group and he's leading the way.

His record is unbelievable.

[Jb1981]

“God-tier coaching”. Perhaps an understatement, but I like it.

[Kiwias]

This is why just like Gatland, Hansen too would struggle as a head coach in Super Rugby against NZ sides.

It is not "would" in Gatland's case.

[Kiwias]

“God-tier coaching”. Perhaps an understatement, but I like it.

[Wild Beef]

Robertson is quality, there is no doubt in my mind of that. But there is a fair bit of bullshit narrative in that wee yarn of yours.

Don’t try too hard.

[Ymx]

Boys boys boys.

The ethos of this forum is to not fall out over what you admire, but to unite instead of what you hate.

Fozzie out.

[towny]

Tony Brown is welcome at the Reds or Wallabies anytime he likes.

[Wild Beef]

Boys boys boys.

The ethos of this forum is to not fall out over what you admire, but to unite instead of what you hate.

Fozzie out.

I try to be positive about Fozzie but it’s just so hard to do.