What are the reasons for Scotland being so historically poor in the Six Nations?

[PlanetGlyndwr]

The OP does this every year around this time. Can't remember his name from PR but he is actually very knowledgable on rugby when he manages to stop being a dick for a few minutes.

Isn't it Toga ?

Kawasaki is Toga

don't be too sure..

[Biffer]

Really good write up Titcheid. Not so long that everyone gives up but contains some good stuff.

I suppose the only nation with working class roots in the game is W..Wa....Wales (there I said it).
England has enough posh kids historically to be competitive. Don't know why Ireland have grown strong in recent years but I suppose with football team scraping along then the only slightly global game they can attach glamour to is Rugby.
Poor old Scotland with no historical roots in the game, detroying the borders heartland and with blazers holding their noses aginst the oiks were doomed.

I believe rugby is the only fully professional sport in Ireland. Which has to help. Also, it’s been raised before, but Scotland were incredibly unfortunate with the timing of the game going pro, and Ireland were the exact opposite. When everything changed, the SRU had just gone into massive debt to upgrade Murrayfield and were utterly skint. The IRFU had spent years faffing about, not making a decision about Lansdowne Rd, and had some money in the kitty to invest in setting up their provincial teams. They then had some early successes, and were able to generate more interest and build a fan base. I’m not saying that the SRU weren’t hopeless and incompetent as well - that’s a given - but there was no money.

Ireland’s economic boom also happened at the same time, with the tech and finance companies setting up there, increasing disposable income, opportunities for hospitality and other commercial benefits.

[Yr Alban]

Really good write up Titcheid. Not so long that everyone gives up but contains some good stuff.

I suppose the only nation with working class roots in the game is W..Wa....Wales (there I said it).
England has enough posh kids historically to be competitive. Don't know why Ireland have grown strong in recent years but I suppose with football team scraping along then the only slightly global game they can attach glamour to is Rugby.
Poor old Scotland with no historical roots in the game, detroying the borders heartland and with blazers holding their noses aginst the oiks were doomed.

I believe rugby is the only fully professional sport in Ireland. Which has to help. Also, it’s been raised before, but Scotland were incredibly unfortunate with the timing of the game going pro, and Ireland were the exact opposite. When everything changed, the SRU had just gone into massive debt to upgrade Murrayfield and were utterly skint. The IRFU had spent years faffing about, not making a decision about Lansdowne Rd, and had some money in the kitty to invest in setting up their provincial teams. They then had some early successes, and were able to generate more interest and build a fan base. I’m not saying that the SRU weren’t hopeless and incompetent as well - that’s a given - but there was no money.

Ireland’s economic boom also happened at the same time, with the tech and finance companies setting up there, increasing disposable income, opportunities for hospitality and other commercial benefits.

Fair comment. Maybe ‘the luck of the Irish’ is a real thing?

Edit: that ancient (and possibly mildly racist) Irish joke just popped into my head - the one with the punchline that says ‘if I were going to Dublin, I wouldn’t be starting from here.’ If you were wanting to set up a successful professional sport, you’d much prefer to start from where Ireland were.

[Uncle fester]

Irish rugby is a funny one. We always had decent players from a small player base with very decent underage teams but the structures higher up were absolutely appalling and selection was extremely political.
The clubs used to play each other in provincial leagues and players from "unfashionable" clubs could not get picked for Ireland. The only real competition was the interpros between the provinces but that was only 3 games a year for each team. Keith Earls' father Ger is a pretty good example of a player who never got capped despite being an oustanding player at club & provincial level.
Irish rugby is littered with one cap wonders, who got their cap because of who their dad was or because they were stalwart servants of an "in" club.

The All Ireland League started in 1990 and there was an immediate uptick in standards. Should really have won the triple crown in 93 and 95 but the amateurish setup at international level crippled us and we blew it (against Scotland who we couldn't beat for love nor money).

Once European rugby came along, the provincial teams got into a good run of form and things snowballed from there. It took a while for that to come through at international level. Gatland started well but then became very conservative, ignoring in form players. Munster actually beat an Irish team in a warm up game for the 1999 world cup. It wasn't until the fiasco in Twickenham in 2000 that Gatland finally started picking in form players and Scotland were the first team on the receiving end of that.

Ironically I reckon Scotland actually had decent structures during the amateur years and maximised what the talent they had. It's the transition to professionalism that got mangled and low players numbers became a bigger factor when money started talking.

[JM2K6]

Isn't it Toga ?

Kawasaki is Toga

don't be too sure..

No, you should be 100% certain it's Toga.

[Yr Alban]

Irish rugby is a funny one. We always had decent players from a small player base with very decent underage teams but the structures higher up were absolutely appalling and selection was extremely political.
The clubs used to play each other in provincial leagues and players from "unfashionable" clubs could not get picked for Ireland. The only real competition was the interpros between the provinces but that was only 3 games a year for each team. Keith Earls' father Ger is a pretty good example of a player who never got capped despite being an oustanding player at club & provincial level.
Irish rugby is littered with one cap wonders, who got their cap because of who their dad was or because they were stalwart servants of an "in" club.

The All Ireland League started in 1990 and there was an immediate uptick in standards. Should really have won the triple crown in 93 and 95 but the amateurish setup at international level crippled us and we blew it (against Scotland who we couldn't beat for love nor money).

Once European rugby came along, the provincial teams got into a good run of form and things snowballed from there. It took a while for that to come through at international level. Gatland started well but then became very conservative, ignoring in form players. Munster actually beat an Irish team in a warm up game for the 1999 world cup. It wasn't until the fiasco in Twickenham in 2000 that Gatland finally started picking in form players and Scotland were the first team on the receiving end of that.

Ironically I reckon Scotland actually had decent structures during the amateur years and maximised what the talent they had. It's the transition to professionalism that got mangled and low players numbers became a bigger factor when money started talking.

I believe that Scotland were the first 6N country to have a functioning competitive national league structure, which laid the foundations for our success in the 80s and 90s (we rarely amounted to much prior to then, and to be fair, generally haven’t since either).

[laurent]

Irish rugby is a funny one. We always had decent players from a small player base with very decent underage teams but the structures higher up were absolutely appalling and selection was extremely political.
The clubs used to play each other in provincial leagues and players from "unfashionable" clubs could not get picked for Ireland. The only real competition was the interpros between the provinces but that was only 3 games a year for each team. Keith Earls' father Ger is a pretty good example of a player who never got capped despite being an oustanding player at club & provincial level.
Irish rugby is littered with one cap wonders, who got their cap because of who their dad was or because they were stalwart servants of an "in" club.

The All Ireland League started in 1990 and there was an immediate uptick in standards. Should really have won the triple crown in 93 and 95 but the amateurish setup at international level crippled us and we blew it (against Scotland who we couldn't beat for love nor money).

Once European rugby came along, the provincial teams got into a good run of form and things snowballed from there. It took a while for that to come through at international level. Gatland started well but then became very conservative, ignoring in form players. Munster actually beat an Irish team in a warm up game for the 1999 world cup. It wasn't until the fiasco in Twickenham in 2000 that Gatland finally started picking in form players and Scotland were the first team on the receiving end of that.

Ironically I reckon Scotland actually had decent structures during the amateur years and maximised what the talent they had. It's the transition to professionalism that got mangled and low players numbers became a bigger factor when money started talking.

I believe that Scotland were the first 6N country to have a functioning competitive national league structure, which laid the foundations for our success in the 80s and 90s (we rarely amounted to much prior to then, and to be fair, generally haven’t since either).

The French were banned from 5 nations in the 30s because they had a proper league setup (and because they liked fighting more than playing rugby...)

It may be true on the old 4 nations though

[Niegs]

Interesting article I saw posted to twitter that seems relevant here...

https://www.theoffsideline.com/opinion- ... academies/

[Chrysoprase]

Interesting article I saw posted to twitter that seems relevant here...

https://www.theoffsideline.com/opinion- ... academies/

Spend any time around club rugby in Scotland and you'll start to hear stories of promising youngsters who were broken by the academies. I personally know one and know of several more. It's so bad it would be funny if it wasn't having real effects on kid's health and futures.

[Niegs]

Interesting article I saw posted to twitter that seems relevant here...

https://www.theoffsideline.com/opinion- ... academies/

Spend any time around club rugby in Scotland and you'll start to hear stories of promising youngsters who were broken by the academies. I personally know one and know of several more. It's so bad it would be funny if it wasn't having real effects on kid's health and futures.

I’m not a fan of ‘the pathway’. It already seems like academies generally don’t have a good turnover rate... even among the few who get a shot at the first team, how many last beyond two years before being dropped/replaced?

With tight finances, I wonder why more don’t just rely more on partnerships with local clubs and schools (which I know they already have, so what’s the added value of bringing them into more ‘academy’ sessions?)

[Chrysoprase]

Spoiler

Show

Interesting article I saw posted to twitter that seems relevant here...

https://www.theoffsideline.com/opinion- ... academies/

Spend any time around club rugby in Scotland and you'll start to hear stories of promising youngsters who were broken by the academies. I personally know one and know of several more. It's so bad it would be funny if it wasn't having real effects on kid's health and futures.

I’m not a fan of ‘the pathway’. It already seems like academies generally don’t have a good turnover rate... even among the few who get a shot at the first team, how many last beyond two years before being dropped/replaced?

With tight finances, I wonder why more don’t just rely more on partnerships with local clubs and schools (which I know they already have, so what’s the added value of bringing them into more ‘academy’ sessions?)

Isn't one of the main goals of the academy to indoctrinate the kids into the "elite" (their word, not mine) mindset? Something I'm very suspicious/cynical about. They say it's about giving kids the best chance to develop their potential as rugby players, I think it's more about making kids think they can have a career playing rugby and to turn their heads away from other options.

That would be much less likely to happen if they were left to develop through the amateur game - they'd be much more likely to consider other avenues as well as professional rugby and maybe the pro-game wouldn't get to cast such a wide net.

[Line6 HXFX]

Scotland were always competitive.
I can't remember ever thinking "Scotland are gonig to be piss easy, and Wales are going to slaughter them"..

But I never really thought that about any team tbh.
When every team is fit as fuck, and can get off the floor in three seconds and line up in defence amd make tackles..rugby is a fucking stalemate basically, and not really decided by the players, team or tactics at all.

Fine margins, luck, the ref the bounce of the ball.

Makes you honestly wonder if players suffering from alziehmers post career is worth this shit.

[Biffer]

This year might be Scotland’s best chance at Twickenham for a long time. Underhill and Sinckler out but more importantly Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola haven’t played a game of rugby in months.

That probably means we’re getting fucking horsed.

[Begbie]

This year might be Scotland’s best chance at Twickenham for a long time. Underhill and Sinckler out but more importantly Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola haven’t played a game of rugby in months.

That probably means we’re getting fucking horsed.

I prefer having my hopes crushed early. It makes the rest of the tournament more enjoyable.

[Yr Alban]

This year might be Scotland’s best chance at Twickenham for a long time. Underhill and Sinckler out but more importantly Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola haven’t played a game of rugby in months.

That probably means we’re getting fucking horsed.

I prefer having my hopes crushed early. It makes the rest of the tournament more enjoyable.

I honestly can’t recall when I last genuinely enjoyed a 6N. It’s become a form of annual torture. Yes, we’re better than we were a few years ago, but we still manage one utter howler of a game most years. The fact that I usually end up watching games on my own doesn’t exactly help.

[Ymx]

Is this the 6N official thread then?

Only just realised it’s so close. Only 5 days away.

[Slick]

Is this the 6N official thread then?

Only just realised it’s so close. Only 5 days away.

No, laurent has kindly started one which means I don't have to see this terrible thread constantly.

[Biffer]

This year might be Scotland’s best chance at Twickenham for a long time. Underhill and Sinckler out but more importantly Farrell, Itoje, Vunipola haven’t played a game of rugby in months.

That probably means we’re getting fucking horsed.

I prefer having my hopes crushed early. It makes the rest of the tournament more enjoyable.

I honestly can’t recall when I last genuinely enjoyed a 6N. It’s become a form of annual torture. Yes, we’re better than we were a few years ago, but we still manage one utter howler of a game most years. The fact that I usually end up watching games on my own doesn’t exactly help.

I quite enjoyed 2017 and 2018

[Slick]

I prefer having my hopes crushed early. It makes the rest of the tournament more enjoyable.

I honestly can’t recall when I last genuinely enjoyed a 6N. It’s become a form of annual torture. Yes, we’re better than we were a few years ago, but we still manage one utter howler of a game most years. The fact that I usually end up watching games on my own doesn’t exactly help.

I quite enjoyed 2017 and 2018

I always enjoy it, it's fucking brilliant. Apart from last year, last year was shite.

There is usually at least one game where I swear I'll never watch rugby again after it, but by the next weekend it's all go again.

[And 1 guest]

I have this familiar, hideous feeling that I always get at this time of year. It has a name - optimism.

It fades to something much more comfortable around about half time in the first game.

[Tattie]

Up until fairly recently I was the eternal optimist as far as Scottish rugby and the 6 nations/world cup was concerned. Even when we were truly awful, I was convinced that we were better than results and performances suggested, that things would eventually click and we would become competitive again.

In the lead-up to every 6 nations and tournament I was excited thinking this was going to be our year, only to be disappointed time after time - often within one half of rugby. Strangely, now that we have genuine talent, that optimism has disappeared and I have accepted that the reality is likely to be infinite mediocrity punctuated with the occasional great performance. I think I enjoy it more now having accepted this. I grew up watching the relative success of the 80s and 90s and I guess I couldn't accept how far we had fallen after the introduction of professionalism. Sadly I don't think we'll ever catch up, too big a gap.

[Happyhooker]

I honestly can’t recall when I last genuinely enjoyed a 6N. It’s become a form of annual torture. Yes, we’re better than we were a few years ago, but we still manage one utter howler of a game most years. The fact that I usually end up watching games on my own doesn’t exactly help.

I quite enjoyed 2017 and 2018

I always enjoy it, it's fucking brilliant. Apart from last year, last year was shite.

There is usually at least one game where I swear I'll never watch rugby again after it, but by the next weekend it's all go again.

It was a tad moist, wasn't it

[Slick]

I quite enjoyed 2017 and 2018

I always enjoy it, it's fucking brilliant. Apart from last year, last year was shite.

There is usually at least one game where I swear I'll never watch rugby again after it, but by the next weekend it's all go again.

It was a tad moist, wasn't it

I say old boy! Seeing you was obviously a highlight, but..

[clydecloggie]

Up until fairly recently I was the eternal optimist as far as Scottish rugby and the 6 nations/world cup was concerned. Even when we were truly awful, I was convinced that we were better than results and performances suggested, that things would eventually click and we would become competitive again.

In the lead-up to every 6 nations and tournament I was excited thinking this was going to be our year, only to be disappointed time after time - often within one half of rugby. Strangely, now that we have genuine talent, that optimism has disappeared and I have accepted that the reality is likely to be infinite mediocrity punctuated with the occasional great performance. I think I enjoy it more now having accepted this. I grew up watching the relative success of the 80s and 90s and I guess I couldn't accept how far we had fallen after the introduction of professionalism. Sadly I don't think we'll ever catch up, too big a gap.

Aye. I think until quite recently I believed there was no reason why Scotland shouldn't be on a par with Ireland and Wales.

Now, seeing how Leinster and the Irish schools/academy system are pumping out good pro players on an industrial scale, I think we have to face up to the fact that Ireland will always be better than us - occasional wins aside.

Fortunately Welsh rugby administration is a basket case and I fully expect us to have the upper hand over them for a while. But if they ever get their act together, they should also be consistently better than us.

It's shit.

[Tattie]

Up until fairly recently I was the eternal optimist as far as Scottish rugby and the 6 nations/world cup was concerned. Even when we were truly awful, I was convinced that we were better than results and performances suggested, that things would eventually click and we would become competitive again.

In the lead-up to every 6 nations and tournament I was excited thinking this was going to be our year, only to be disappointed time after time - often within one half of rugby. Strangely, now that we have genuine talent, that optimism has disappeared and I have accepted that the reality is likely to be infinite mediocrity punctuated with the occasional great performance. I think I enjoy it more now having accepted this. I grew up watching the relative success of the 80s and 90s and I guess I couldn't accept how far we had fallen after the introduction of professionalism. Sadly I don't think we'll ever catch up, too big a gap.

Aye. I think until quite recently I believed there was no reason why Scotland shouldn't be on a par with Ireland and Wales.

Now, seeing how Leinster and the Irish schools/academy system are pumping out good pro players on an industrial scale, I think we have to face up to the fact that Ireland will always be better than us - occasional wins aside.

Fortunately Welsh rugby administration is a basket case and I fully expect us to have the upper hand over them for a while. But if they ever get their act together, they should also be consistently better than us.

It's shit.

Agree. I find it both depressing and mid-boggling that the powers that be in Scottish rugby think that we can be competitive with such a (deliberately) minute pool of players at their disposal. It's too late now but four pro teams and better school and academy setups should have been a priority from the beginning of the pro era. I still think a third team based in Aberdeen or a combination of Aberdeen/Dundee/Inverness would work - the nay-sayers always bring up that it's not financially viable but what's the alternative? little to no rugby in Scotland in a generation. Internationally we actually punch way above our weight but that can't continue with the current setup.

[Begbie]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

[Slick]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

[Begbie]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

[sockwithaticket]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

Shirley that's prohibited by the Geneva Convention?

[Happyhooker]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

anything played by the pipes automatically becomes the most obnoxious tune

[frodder]

You given up on PR double H?

[Happyhooker]

You given up on PR double H?

until last week i hadn't really been on any of them, just dipping a toe in here.

tried pr a couple of times on my phone (which is where i normally post from) and found it almost unusable because of the ads. still glance at it on ocassion, but doesn't really appeal much

[frodder]

You given up on PR double H?

until last week i hadn't really been on any of them, just dipping a toe in here.

tried pr a couple of times on my phone (which is where i normally post from) and found it almost unusable because of the ads. still glance at it on ocassion, but doesn't really appeal much

Download AdBlocker will sort the ads out, however it can't do anything about the Swarm

[Chrysoprase]

Taking the odd big scalp, being hard to beat and making Murrayfield somewhere the opposition hate coming to will do for me.

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

Yeah very good! You're talking about a crowd that tells people to sit down should they, God forbid, actually get excited by what's going on down on the pitch. Of course that's pretty rare for the home support at Murrayfield but it's a constant source of embarrassment when the only atmosphere we get at those games is the one brought by the visiting fans.

I actually suggested to some folk at the SRU once that there should be a designated noise making section in the stand at Murrayfield. They could get some drummers in, along with a few pipers and just keep the noise levels up throughout the game. Anyone buying a ticket for that section would be expected to accept that it wouldn't be a peaceful afternoon. The folk I was talking to looked at me like I had two heads.

[Begbie]

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

Yeah very good! You're talking about a crowd that tells people to sit down should they, God forbid, actually get excited by what's going on down on the pitch. Of course that's pretty rare for the home support at Murrayfield but it's a constant source of embarrassment when the only atmosphere we get at those games is the one brought by the visiting fans.

I actually suggested to some folk at the SRU once that there should be a designated noise making section in the stand at Murrayfield. They could get some drummers in, along with a few pipers and just keep the noise levels up throughout the game. Anyone buying a ticket for that section would be expected to accept that it wouldn't be a peaceful afternoon. The folk I was talking to looked at me like I had two heads.

Yeah, we've all been sat next to helmets like that at games, I don't get why they don't just stay at home.

Are you the Sing for Scotland guy on Twitter?

[Slick]

I was daydreaming about this the other day. Pro rugby has taken a lot of what I love about rugby anyway so why don't we commit fully to pro sport and create a hell hole for visiting teams for a laugh. Flares, proper abuse and intimidation, booing anthems, kicks, anything really. What a day out, and if we win, even better. All nice and friendly away from the stadium of course. For the time being.

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

Yeah very good! You're talking about a crowd that tells people to sit down should they, God forbid, actually get excited by what's going on down on the pitch. Of course that's pretty rare for the home support at Murrayfield but it's a constant source of embarrassment when the only atmosphere we get at those games is the one brought by the visiting fans.

I actually suggested to some folk at the SRU once that there should be a designated noise making section in the stand at Murrayfield. They could get some drummers in, along with a few pipers and just keep the noise levels up throughout the game. Anyone buying a ticket for that section would be expected to accept that it wouldn't be a peaceful afternoon. The folk I was talking to looked at me like I had two heads.

I don't think the atmosphere is THAT bad. I don't really enjoy England games because there are too many idiots and when it's quiet, it really quiet, but it can build to a cracking atmosphere at times.

[Chrysoprase]

Haha I was talking about on the pitch. But having a crowd that actually makes some noise would be a start. FoS, Scooooootllaaaaaannd and Loch Lomond are hardly inspiring or intimidating. Maybe we could fill half a stand with pipers and ask them to play the most obnoxious tunes for the whole 80 mins.

Yeah very good! You're talking about a crowd that tells people to sit down should they, God forbid, actually get excited by what's going on down on the pitch. Of course that's pretty rare for the home support at Murrayfield but it's a constant source of embarrassment when the only atmosphere we get at those games is the one brought by the visiting fans.

I actually suggested to some folk at the SRU once that there should be a designated noise making section in the stand at Murrayfield. They could get some drummers in, along with a few pipers and just keep the noise levels up throughout the game. Anyone buying a ticket for that section would be expected to accept that it wouldn't be a peaceful afternoon. The folk I was talking to looked at me like I had two heads.

I don't think the atmosphere is THAT bad. I don't really enjoy England games because there are too many idiots and when it's quiet, it really quiet, but it can build to a cracking atmosphere at times.

Maybe I'm showing my age, I remember what the atmosphere used to be like when the ends were still terraced.

[Yr Alban]

Up until fairly recently I was the eternal optimist as far as Scottish rugby and the 6 nations/world cup was concerned. Even when we were truly awful, I was convinced that we were better than results and performances suggested, that things would eventually click and we would become competitive again.

In the lead-up to every 6 nations and tournament I was excited thinking this was going to be our year, only to be disappointed time after time - often within one half of rugby. Strangely, now that we have genuine talent, that optimism has disappeared and I have accepted that the reality is likely to be infinite mediocrity punctuated with the occasional great performance. I think I enjoy it more now having accepted this. I grew up watching the relative success of the 80s and 90s and I guess I couldn't accept how far we had fallen after the introduction of professionalism. Sadly I don't think we'll ever catch up, too big a gap.

Aye. I think until quite recently I believed there was no reason why Scotland shouldn't be on a par with Ireland and Wales.

Now, seeing how Leinster and the Irish schools/academy system are pumping out good pro players on an industrial scale, I think we have to face up to the fact that Ireland will always be better than us - occasional wins aside.

Fortunately Welsh rugby administration is a basket case and I fully expect us to have the upper hand over them for a while. But if they ever get their act together, they should also be consistently better than us.

It's shit.

Agree. I find it both depressing and mid-boggling that the powers that be in Scottish rugby think that we can be competitive with such a (deliberately) minute pool of players at their disposal. It's too late now but four pro teams and better school and academy setups should have been a priority from the beginning of the pro era. I still think a third team based in Aberdeen or a combination of Aberdeen/Dundee/Inverness would work - the nay-sayers always bring up that it's not financially viable but what's the alternative? little to no rugby in Scotland in a generation. Internationally we actually punch way above our weight but that can't continue with the current setup.

If we have any aspirations to remain competitive at all, we have to have at least 3 pro teams operating. This is so fundamental that I can’t believe it isn’t the SRU’s #1 priority. Even if it starts as a development side in the mould of Connacht, we have to be exposing more players to pro rugby every week.

[Slick]

Aye. I think until quite recently I believed there was no reason why Scotland shouldn't be on a par with Ireland and Wales.

Now, seeing how Leinster and the Irish schools/academy system are pumping out good pro players on an industrial scale, I think we have to face up to the fact that Ireland will always be better than us - occasional wins aside.

Fortunately Welsh rugby administration is a basket case and I fully expect us to have the upper hand over them for a while. But if they ever get their act together, they should also be consistently better than us.

It's shit.

Agree. I find it both depressing and mid-boggling that the powers that be in Scottish rugby think that we can be competitive with such a (deliberately) minute pool of players at their disposal. It's too late now but four pro teams and better school and academy setups should have been a priority from the beginning of the pro era. I still think a third team based in Aberdeen or a combination of Aberdeen/Dundee/Inverness would work - the nay-sayers always bring up that it's not financially viable but what's the alternative? little to no rugby in Scotland in a generation. Internationally we actually punch way above our weight but that can't continue with the current setup.

If we have any aspirations to remain competitive at all, we have to have at least 3 pro teams operating. This is so fundamental that I can’t believe it isn’t the SRU’s #1 priority. Even if it starts as a development side in the mould of Connacht, we have to be exposing more players to pro rugby every week.

I agree, but I guess there are fundemental reasons why its not happening. I'd like to see how the Super 6 goes, a real shame it was cut off before it started as there were some good reports coming out from it