Owens would have disallowed May's acrobat try

[Insane_Homer]

Rugby is a dangerous sport is about the dumbest counter argument I've heard in a long time.

What do you think that very explicit law was written for then?

[Grandpa]

I did, and if you watch, the first contact comes whilst May is still on the ground. I'll admit it's bloody close, but it's true, which rather stops the "He jumped into the tackle." The picture you showed isn't the start is it...

I froze the video at the point of first contact... May appears to be airborne?

First Contact.png (318.74 KiB) Viewed 675 times

[Torquemada 1420]

If that’s the law then so be it although it begs the question why isn’t there more jumping over tackles if it’s legit.

You're not allowed to be reckless or dangerous, and that's where you get the difference between a dive and a jump for me, a jump is going to leave legs leading, and shins and knees flying into heads, ready to land back on your feet, and clearly very dangerous, a dive has the aim of landing on your body/hands etc, which is what May was doing, albeit in acrobatic manner.

That’s a reasonable distinction imo.

It seems so i.e. if player upright, then dangerous and if horizontal then let it pass. However, that does beg the question as to what happens if a committed defender takes the player out? Are we saying that once a player is in the air in that position, he is immune from tackle? Because that opens a can of worms.

[Insane_Homer]

I did, and if you watch, the first contact comes whilst May is still on the ground. I'll admit it's bloody close, but it's true, which rather stops the "He jumped into the tackle." The picture you showed isn't the start is it...

I froze the video at the point of first contact... May appears to be airborne?


First Contact.png

and he starts the jump before the tackler gets to him.

[Raggs]

I did, and if you watch, the first contact comes whilst May is still on the ground. I'll admit it's bloody close, but it's true, which rather stops the "He jumped into the tackle." The picture you showed isn't the start is it...

I froze the video at the point of first contact... May appears to be airborne?


First Contact.png

Frame earlier the hand is still on his hip and May's foot is on the ground (may be 2 frames etc).

IH, if you think that law is explicit (you do know the definition of explicit right?), and May's actions were more dangerous for the tackler than even him simply running, then I give up, we're never going to agree.

[Torquemada 1420]

Even this is a nightmare to differentiate. How high is too high to clear a tackler? Tap tackles anyone?

[Insane_Homer]

IH, if you think that law is explicit (you do know the definition of explicit right?), and May's actions were more dangerous for the tackler than even him simply running, then I give up, we're never going to agree.

It's dangerous to both players, (you've already argued it's dangerous coz rugby is dangerous game!)

There's a law preventing players from tackling players who are in the air. This would result in the ludicrous scenario where a player could deliberately jump into any tackle situation to draw a penalty and or card for then being tacked in the air.

There will be a clarification by a change in laws wording, add to it or IRB will issue a clarifying statement that jumping into or jumping to avoid a tackle is explicitly dangerous and cuntish thing to do.

[JM2K6]

I must admit I find it quite odd that we're having this discussion now, and not any of the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

IMO it's because May leaps more vertically than horizontally.

Or it's anti-English sentiment ;)

[laurent]

The Jump can be dangerous play for either players.

We had (in our very short season) an opposition player jump a tackle and our backrow unable to control the tackle a s a result.
- it ended up with a red against us for tip tackle.
- Player leaving the pitch injured.

I thought that the may try should have been disallowed as his action are jumping/ hurdling rather than dive.

A fairly good twitter ref account (French ref or ref group) challenged Owen's interpretation as there is no written law. Apparently there was a directive but these are not in Law books.

The ref has to assess dangerous play in this case which is making this a Russian roulette.

[Insane_Homer]

the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

Really? I'd argue it's a very rare event, so rare, that up to this point it's not required a law to define it.

[JM2K6]

the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

Really? I'd argue it's a very rare event, so rare, that up to this point it's not required a law to define it.

Spectacular airborne tackle-evading one-handed finishes are individually rare enough to be noteworthy and common enough that we see them fairly regularly each season. You see them more in rugby league, but we've learned the trick now.

Honestly, I do think that the *only* reason this one is being complained about is because he jumps more vertically - like a hurdle - than horizontally.

[Insane_Homer]

DANGEROUS PLAY

17. A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

If it's considered dangerous to tackle a player who is in the air, then a player tackling a jumping player must to be dangerous by the same definition?

So to avoid it being dangerous, the jump must avoid the tackle completely...but if the tackler succeeds then the tackler should be penalised for dangerous play...

[JM2K6]

This is an example (from rugby league) of the sort of finish we've started seeing more often in union. Happens a *lot* in RL, but is rarer - as in we see it a handful of times a season - in union

[JM2K6]

DANGEROUS PLAY

17. A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

If it's considered dangerous to tackle a player who is in the air, then a player tackling a jumping player must to be dangerous by the same definition?

So to avoid it being dangerous, the jump mush avoid the tackle completely...but if the tackler succeeds then the tackler should be penalised for dangerous play...

I know you're not new to how weirdly circular and occasionally self-defeating rugby's laws can be!

[Torquemada 1420]

I must admit I find it quite odd that we're having this discussion now, and not any of the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

IMO it's because May leaps more vertically than horizontally.

Or it's anti-English sentiment ;)

Now you c'mon. It's not all about England always you know. This board has only been around a short time and we probably would not have discussed it were it not for Owens' comment.

Personally, I find myself compromised on the issue. I want it to be permitted because it's hugely entertaining but the more I think about it, the more inconsistent it is with other Laws.

You only ever see this (aside from fwds occasionally trying to salmon leap over a ruck near the tryline) when the dot down is in the corner. So clearly players only do this in order to prevent going into touch. Ergo, normally it's not considered the most effective way to score? But if you are not allowed to be tackled, why not always launch yourself into the air once within 2m of the tryline wherever?

[JM2K6]

I must admit I find it quite odd that we're having this discussion now, and not any of the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

IMO it's because May leaps more vertically than horizontally.

Or it's anti-English sentiment ;)

Now you c'mon. It's not all about England always you know. This board has only been around a short time and we probably would not have discussed it were it not for Owens' comment.

Literally could not have made it any more obvious that that line was a joke.

Personally, I find myself compromised on the issue. I want it to be permitted because it's hugely entertaining but the more I think about it, the more inconsistent it is with other Laws.

You only ever see this (aside from fwds occasionally trying to salmon leap over a ruck near the tryline) when the dot down is in the corner. So clearly players only do this in order to prevent going into touch. Ergo, normally it's not considered the most effective way to score? But if you are not allowed to be tackled, why not always launch yourself into the air once within 2m of the tryline wherever?

Because it's a difficult skill and easy to fuck up.

[SaintK]

This is an example (from rugby league) of the sort of finish we've started seeing more often in union. Happens a *lot* in RL, but is rarer - as in we see it a handful of times a season - in union

Seen Denny Solomona score a few of those for Sale.

[Slick]

I must admit I find it quite odd that we're having this discussion now, and not any of the other many, many times a player has leapt into the air to avoid being tackled and score a try.

IMO it's because May leaps more vertically than horizontally.

Or it's anti-English sentiment ;)

Well, yes, that's exactly why it is being talked about. I didn't like it but can also see why a ref would let it go. It started out as almost a hurdle which shouldn't be allowed.

[Torquemada 1420]

Because it's a difficult skill and easy to fuck up.

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

[JM2K6]

Because it's a difficult skill and easy to fuck up.

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

For it to work these things have to be true:

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

[boere wors]

[Insert Welsh Accent]
You cannot dive here sonny. This is not soccer.

[/end Welsh accent]

[Insane_Homer]

Because it's a difficult skill and easy to fuck up.

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

For it to work these things have to be true:

Spoiler

Show

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

and if you do fuck it up, and get tackled in the air, and don't score, the ref just awards a pen try and send the other guy off, win/win!

[Openside]

Ok. Now where's there law that says he can't?

DANGEROUS PLAY
Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.

Right. So it doesn't say you can't jump.

The tackle started whilst May was still on the ground. The tackler was not in danger. Especially compared to a different scenario of a winger simply running full pelt into the defender (check out the Lowe carry in the France game where he smashes the defender).

In which case he jumped the tackler.

[Openside]

What there seems to be creeping into the game is players jumping to take a pass there is no real need to jump to collect and then the tackler is penalised. I am beginning to think that only a tackler defending a high ball should be able to jump players running forward jumping are unbalanced and prone to landing on people legitimately running to catch the ball.

[JM2K6]

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

For it to work these things have to be true:

Spoiler

Show

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

and if you do fuck it up, and get tackled in the air, and don't score, the ref just awards a pen try and send the other guy off, win/win!

When's that ever happened?

[boere wors]

The italian tries to tackle him low, May jumps high to avoid. In doing so, his boots are now in the face of the italian, making contact or not. Either way, that is exactly what is meant by dangerous play, thus it should have been a penalty against May.

[Torquemada 1420]

Because it's a difficult skill and easy to fuck up.

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

For it to work these things have to be true:

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

You may be right but is it possible players just hadn't considered the "immunity" implications of doing it further infield?

[JM2K6]

Not buying that. The premium from being immune from tackled would make it the go to option over sliding in.

For it to work these things have to be true:

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

You may be right but is it possible players just hadn't considered the "immunity" implications of doing it further infield?

Immunity isn't the reason they do it out wide. It's to avoid going into touch. The immunity is part of that, sure, but it's not that players are going "If I jump here, he's not allowed to tackle me" - players are still attempting tackles, after all. It's just that nowhere else on the pitch is being airborne such a factor.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

It's clear to me that May jumps the tackle and his feet end up very close to the head of the defender as a result.

[media]][/media]

[Torquemada 1420]

Immunity isn't the reason they do it out wide. It's to avoid going into touch. The immunity is part of that, sure, but it's not that players are going "If I jump here, he's not allowed to tackle me" - players are still attempting tackles, after all. It's just that nowhere else on the pitch is being airborne such a factor.

Yes. I know as I commented earlier. It's just that the implication here is clear i.e. if you are not allowed to attempt to tackle a player who is airborne (horizontal) whilst attempting to dot down, then as a coach, I'd be telling every back (fwds probably physically incapable) of doing just that. Even 2 defenders versus 1 attacker become powerless.

And that brings us around to the defenders attempting a tackle: how is is possible to do this legally?
a) A player in the air is sacrosanct now
b) And even if not, try wrapping arms in that scenario

The fact that no-one agrees here indicates it's another of rugby's self inflicted messes.

[Insane_Homer]

For it to work these things have to be true:

Spoiler

Show

1) There must be a benefit to doing a salmon leap rather than any other attempt (the touchline is a big factor here)
2) There must be space to land
3) The player must be athletic enough to perform this
4) The player must be confident of their ability to place the ball while doing this

Now, I've seen a few salmon leaps over tryline rucks, but the situation is really quite different. Players scoring in the corner are usually:

1) Backs
2) running at pace
3) Diving over a tackle coming from the side
4) Aiming for clear grass with no other bodies in the way

It's a very different scenario, which is why we don't see it very often at all except in a specific set of circumstances.

and if you do fuck it up, and get tackled in the air, and don't score, the ref just awards a pen try and send the other guy off, win/win!

When's that ever happened?

It could've happened to May here, had there been enough contact to get him into touch, drop the ball or land on his head.

It's written in the Law - right there in black & white, it's very clear.

1. A tackle of a player in the air is dangerous, foul play.
2. Foul play that prevents a try being scored is a pen try and yellow card.

[JM2K6]

and if you do fuck it up, and get tackled in the air, and don't score, the ref just awards a pen try and send the other guy off, win/win!

When's that ever happened?

It could've happened to May here, had there been enough contact to get him into touch, drop the ball or land on his head.

It's written in the Law - right there in black & white, it's very clear.

1. A tackle of a player in the air is dangerous, foul play.
2. Foul play that prevents a try being scored is a pen try and yellow card.

So... is the answer never?

Clearly the players don't think it's illegal to attempt to tackle someone in the air when they're trying to score. I've never seen a player penalised for it. Is this an invented problem? Perhaps it's the understanding that tackles in the air lead to players being tipped that's the issue here - and players diving for the line are tipping themselves.

Anyway, I'm happy to park this until the point a player gets penalised for tackling someone who's trying to score while airborne. Until then I don't think we actually have a problem.

[Insane_Homer]

17 A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

If you really want to fuck it up, most tackles are speedsters will be a 50/50 "tackle in the air" foul play. When at full flight both feat are off the ground.

Can of worms opened...

[boere wors]

17 A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

If you really want to fuck it up, most tackles are speedsters will be a 50/50 "tackle in the air" foul play. When at full flight both feat are off the ground.

Can of worms opened...

Nah come on, some common sense has to be allowed.

[Insane_Homer]

Nah come on, some common sense has to be allowed.

Like saying jumping to avoid a tackle is dangerous?

[boere wors]

It's clear to me that May jumps the tackle and his feet end up very close to the head of the defender as a result.

[media]][/media]

Exactly. It is clearly a jump to avoid the tackle, not a dive for the line. Which is considered to be dangerous play. As other fotos show, his boots are in the italians face.

[boere wors]

Nah come on, some common sense has to be allowed.

Like saying jumping to avoid a tackle is dangerous?

No, but one could add "except when a player is running or diving for the line" to make it clear. But is that necessary, i think it is clear which cases are meant by "whose feet are of the ground"

[Insane_Homer]

A decent selection and array of dives and jumps

[Lobby]

A decent selection and array of dives and jumps

A fair few of those, including two by Welsh players, are not that different to May’s try. As I assume none of those were disallowed for ‘jumping’, I can’t see why his effort has been singled out as being especially egregious.

[Torquemada 1420]

So... is the answer never?

Clearly the players don't think it's illegal to attempt to tackle someone in the air when they're trying to score. I've never seen a player penalised for it. Is this an invented problem? Perhaps it's the understanding that tackles in the air lead to players being tipped that's the issue here - and players diving for the line are tipping themselves.

Anyway, I'm happy to park this until the point a player gets penalised for tackling someone who's trying to score while airborne. Until then I don't think we actually have a problem.

You tell me. I don't know and suspect it's now one of those areas where what you get from refs will vary widely
- May scoring at Twickers in game against minnow where the effort won't affect the outcome: all refs will let it stand
- May scoring at Eden Park in last minute of RWC final v the ABs to push Eng into the lead: good luck

Actually, I have seen a player penalised for it and was trying to think what the incident was before quoting it. Player was in the air and was taken out by the tackler and pen try was awarded and tackler yellowed for no arms. Defo involved a Fre side but cannot recall if intl, HEC or T14 (pretty sure it wasn't T14). Will probably come to me in my sleep.