6 nations 2021 Scrum down in the lockdown

[Paddington Bear]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.

Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM

[Openside]

I’ll accept all of your apologies in the week

You are going to be wearing an omelette face mask....

[Openside]

Nigel Try 1

I have sympathy for Owen Farrell and England. What the referee did may have been correct by the letter of the law, but the fair thing would have been to allow England to reset their defence before putting the time back on.

He asked Farrell to speak to his team about their discipline, and England were in that huddle because he asked them to be.

My game management as a referee in that situation would be to say to myself: 'Right, I have asked him to speak to his players. I need to be sure that I give them enough time to get back into defence.' The referee did not do that.

Nigel Try 2

Wales' second try should not have been awarded. It was a knock-on by Louis Rees-Zammit.

The law states that if a player loses control of the ball forward, he must regain possession of it otherwise it is a knock-on. Rees-Zammit touched the ball and it went down and forward on to his leg, then backwards.

The key thing here is that had Rees-Zammit's hand not touched the ball, it would have been play on. But it did. He lost control of the ball with his hands and failed to regain possession. That is a knock-on.

If you have any questions, just look at Rees-Zammit's face when the try is awarded. That gives you the answer you need.

You cannot just point the finger at the referee. There were four officials looking at it and between them they should have come to the correct decision. I heard the TMO say that the ball went backwards off the player's leg. That is correct. But what they failed to mention was that it came off his hand first. It's a knock-on.

Delighted to see that Nigel has exactly backed up my interpretation of both tries. How is that Omelette YMX

[Ymx]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

[Ymx]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.

Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM

Think he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.

[Paddington Bear]

The most annoying thing is we cant too upset about the two tries that shouldn't have being because of the awful last ten minutes that meant we lost by more than 14.

I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.

Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM

Think he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.

I don’t think he did. The outrage is justifiable. Pretending that the loss is solely about the ref would be wrong, but those are two shocking calls for 14 points. Shouldn’t see that at test level. Jones and Farrell did remarkably well not to pile in afterwards

[Biffer]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

[Paddington Bear]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

[Torquemada 1420]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Ditto. But then I'm not a law maker and there is clearly some ambiguity here which is typical of the problem that blights rugby and turns viewers away from the game.

[Sandstorm]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

The ref’s opinion of Farrell was normal for 79.5 mins and even their spat was minor. I saw nothing in the ref’s performance that was affected by either skipper actually. He was just French and shit.

[Paddington Bear]

For what it’s worth this is a dismal 6N weekend. First game barely watchable, the second became all about the ref and the third cancelled. Back to another couple of weeks of reminding people they’re still on mute

[Torquemada 1420]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

Plenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.

If he was captaining France, I'd be furious (setting aside him being selected at all and being a Northern Mungo Monkey to boot) at his management of officials. In addition, his sh*t attitude and behaviour appears to permeate through to his team's ill discipline.

[Lemoentjie]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

[ASMO]

Is anyone really surprised about Farrell getting on the wrong side of the ref given how much of a petulant duck he's been recently?

If you pick a dickhead as your captain, you're going to get shitty decisions from the ref. Way of the world.

He didn’t get on the wrong side of him, he was following the ref’s instructions, the ref then let Biggar play.

Plenty of press commentary on how Farrell p*sses off refs. You are living in the same dream world as Eddie methinks.

If he was captaining France, I'd be furious (setting aside him being selected at all and being a Northern Mungo Monkey to boot) at his management of officials. In addition, his sh*t attitude and behaviour appears to permeate through to his team's ill discipline.

Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.

[Ymx]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

[Paddington Bear]

The two decisions don’t excuse England’s appalling discipline, I fully agree with that

[Openside]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible)

I was surprised to see a sensible Surrey man talking gobbledygook

[Openside]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

It was nothing, his shoulder bounced off the ball upwards it was absolutely fine ...

[Slick]

When England did start throwing the ball about, particularly at the end of the 2nd half, they looked excellent and almost unplayable. Silly errors lost the momentum but they looked a much better team playing like that

[Ymx]

I’m not sure this fully holds - the entire flow of the game gets changed by those two decisions and forces us to play 50 minutes + of catch up. Beyond that though our discipline is appalling and it’s hard to win games getting pinged off the park.

Still can’t get over Jiffy giggling and trying to award the ref MoM

Think he said it to alleviate the situation in the room, with the Guscott and Johnson outrage.

I don’t think he did. The outrage is justifiable. Pretending that the loss is solely about the ref would be wrong, but those are two shocking calls for 14 points. Shouldn’t see that at test level. Jones and Farrell did remarkably well not to pile in afterwards

He was certainly making light of it.

[Ymx]

I’m the one saying it’s a knock on OS

Apols, someone must have left a quote in the wrong place...it seemed to suggest you were back the on field decision. Or I have misinterpreted in a hurry (always possible)

I was surprised to see a sensible Surrey man talking gobbledygook

Speaking of the local area. Don’t know about you but the sun of last couple of days was both great and a killer. Golf clubs were twitching, and I’ve completely forgotten how bad I am at golf.

[GogLais]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

[Blackmac]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

[Ymx]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

[assfly]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Agreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.

[JM2K6]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Water carriers for Wales, too, iirc.

20 seconds is plenty of time to get the message across. It's quite tight to get the players in, give them a chat, then get them to go back to their positions, though, which is the problem.

I usually have zero sympathy in these situations, so I'm not gonna pretend to be angry about it, but I can see Farrell's point (and Johnson's - it's his reaction more than Farrell's that explains just how bizarrely refereed this was)

[JM2K6]

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

[JM2K6]

The ref gave Farrell over 20 seconds to get his message over. Doesn't sound long but if you actually sit and look at your watch for that long it's plenty of time. In addition two English water carriers came on to the pitch for no apparent reason. The ref gave England enough time, how they used it was up to them. I think it's like the Hardy try, England just assumed that Wales would go for the penalty.

Agreed. And Biggar deserves credit for his response. England were fully expecting a kick for the posts or lineout. Most team would have struggled to have adjusted when Biggar tapped immediately after time on was called. Let's not forget Ford was close enough to compete too.

No he wasn't. He was close enough to make a tackle after the player caught it. Never close enough to compete.

[sockwithaticket]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

[Deveron Boy]

Re poss yellow cards yesterday should have had one for cumulative pens

[GogLais]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

Well speaking of precedence - every time I recall seeing a captain pass on a warning he’s walked towards the team, waved his arms down and literally had a quick word. I don’t remember a team huddling together in that situation with two of the coaching staff. The object of the exercise is to pass on a warning, not to have a coaching meeting.

[JM2K6]

That's just silly. There's been countless occasions of teams being called in to pass on the refs instructions.

[Saint]

The pitch at the Gardens looks like a bowling green. Beautiful

[GogLais]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

[JM2K6]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

[Torquemada 1420]

Don't disagree with that analysis, he is a terrible terrible captain, petulant and totally unable to control the team. Any half decent captain would have read the riot act to them about the number of penalties they are giving away, stupid dumb penalties, he did fuck all except whine to the referee.

More commentary along those lines

With regard to Farrell, the interview exists in the context of people questioning his leadership style in general. He is a rugby player and person with a lot of impressive qualities, but communication with referees is not always apparent among them. He is a lead-by-example skipper, which is fine, but part of the captain’s role these days is to get the referee onside, and it was clear from his interactions with Pascal Gaüzère that he is a million miles away from the referee-whispering qualities of, say, Sam Warburton.

in an article on the online abuse by English supporters to the beeb interviewer.

[Torquemada 1420]

The two decisions don’t excuse England’s appalling discipline, I fully agree with that

Only 2 decisions against you (one of which wasn't law anyway and the other one remains contentious).

I'm weeping for your injustices. Weeping I tells ya along with the rest of the world.

How about Itoje escaping yellow for 5 pens?

[Ymx]

Agreed, they said the tackle rode up to hit his face and seemed to ignore that it started too bloody high in the first place.

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

[Ymx]

Anyone would be seething if that first try was scored against them in that manner. If the ref takes time off and sends a captain away to speak to their team it's customary to tell them when the game's about to resume and give them a few seconds to sort themselves out before starting the clock again. Not stand miles away and only tell the opposition that time's back on.

It may be ok by the letter of the law, but established precedent counts for a lot in rugby.

What was that previous well known account of this? Talking to team when quick tap taken. For some reason I recall Ireland somehow involved.

[JM2K6]

It may have grazed his arm on the way but just hit him smack on the chin with force rocking his head back was my take on it.

I think it was an apologetic let off for the 2 odd calls in the first half.

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.

Players suffering from collisions like that is less about tackle height and more about the dangers of modern rugby in terms of the collisions being simply too great and the brain still suffering even if the head doesn't get hit - it's a different discussion. We currently aren't legislating against player size or anything, so there's not much to discuss there. Agreed he did clip the jaw, just about, but after the main big collision and with all the force going upwards (hence grazing).

Does that make sense? I'm not looking to excuse anything here. And I'm happy to revisit if someone can remind me roughly what time it happened, so I can look at it again.