6 nations 2021 Scrum down in the lockdown

[GogLais]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

[JM2K6]

I can only quote David Walsh in the Sunday Times - when the referee suggested to Farrell that he should have a word with his team, he wasn’t inviting him to have a water break, nor did he ask the England captain to come back to him with word on when his team were ready to recommence.

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

But that makes no sense. Water carriers aren't called on by the team. They come on when there's a stoppage. There was a stoppage.

The point is that England came together because the referee requested the captain talk to his team. The referee, aware that Wales wanted to go quickly, chose to put time back on when he could see that England had only just stopped talking, giving Wales a big advantage. That's what people are angry about. The ref caused England to not be in position in the first place - it's not right that he didn't give them the chance after doing what he asked to go back to a defensive position.

[sockwithaticket]

Ian Tempest has just called time off in the Saints - Bath game, told Priestland to go talk to his team (a huddle is formed) and then only put time back on having established everyone's ready to resume play which is how refs typically do this sort of thing.

[Lemoentjie]

Wales my second team.

Okay, the first 2 tries weren't tries, but they still deserved to win. England deserved 2 yellow cards.

I must admit I couldn’t believe that shoulder to head (from white 7?) with force was deemed nothing.

What was the other yellow?

Itoje gave 5 penalties by himself. Definitely a YC.

[Ymx]

It was a chest high tackle that knocked the player back, the shoulder bounced off the ball and grazed the chin.

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.

Players suffering from collisions like that is less about tackle height and more about the dangers of modern rugby in terms of the collisions being simply too great and the brain still suffering even if the head doesn't get hit - it's a different discussion. We currently aren't legislating against player size or anything, so there's not much to discuss there. Agreed he did clip the jaw, just about, but after the main big collision and with all the force going upwards (hence grazing).

Does that make sense? I'm not looking to excuse anything here. And I'm happy to revisit if someone can remind me roughly what time it happened, so I can look at it again.

Haven’t looked again. But found this.

63:30 match time.

[GogLais]

Having just looked at it again myself, nor was it the 20 seconds you've been claiming. I don't think you're looking at this even remotely objectively.

There were water carriers from both sides on the pitch. As the ref puts time off, a welsh player is literally taking a bottle off the welsh water carrier a few yards behind Biggar, and another is chatting to the welsh backs. As he puts time on, the two welsh ones are still near players, of of them giving water to two players.

It's a stupid thing to use to attack England.

edit:

The point I’m trying to make about water carriers is that it suggests that England were treating it as more than a brief stoppage for a captain to pass on a warning to his team. Wales may have had them on the pitch as well but they weren’t the ones defending the penalty.

But that makes no sense. Water carriers aren't called on by the team. They come on when there's a stoppage. There was a stoppage.

The point is that England came together because the referee requested the captain talk to his team. The referee, aware that Wales wanted to go quickly, chose to put time back on when he could see that England had only just stopped talking, giving Wales a big advantage. That's what people are angry about. The ref caused England to not be in position in the first place - it's not right that he didn't give them the chance after doing what he asked to go back to a defensive position.

There was indeed a stoppage but it was for a specific purpose - warning his team. As an aside I don’t see the point of these warnings - if a team or a captain doesn’t realise they’re infringing too much then they have a problem anyway.

[Ymx]

1:19:00

Mute the useless commentary if you can

[Paddington Bear]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

[GogLais]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

Indeed. First match I’ve switched off at half time for God knows how long.

[JM2K6]

1:19:00

Mute the useless commentary if you can

Ta. Am enjoying a sneaky picnic in what remains of the sun, will check later

[Torquemada 1420]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

I feel for Italy at the moment. I honestly think they are a lot better (absolutely) than they've been for a very long time and have some promising youngsters coming through. Trouble is ALL the rest of the 6N is at a higher (relative) standard than ever before to them. The Sweaties are a serious side. Wales' demise appears to have been heralded early. France have given up flaky (for now). Ireland are limited but friggin' hard to beat. Eng always going to be too good for Italy (only 6N side never to have lost to them?).

It's a tough gig and I don't think anyone else would fare better. Italy would beat Georgia. Options therefore are
- go back to 5N
- try and liven it up with relegation and a properly structured 2nd tier comp which, BTW, I would like to see.

Oh. And sadly, I can't be arsed watching them getting bummed game after game either.

[Slick]

I think the main point of that first try is that we can argue back and forth but any one of us would be furious if it was given against our team. Anyone is lying if they say otherwise.

Was walking with a mate this morning who’s take was that it was appalling sportsmanship from Biggar and the ref was complicit in that

[Slick]

Have to say am starting to see the Quitaly point of view. Feel like their match is cheating us of a game each weekend, barely watched the second half yesterday.

Possible alternatives:
- South Africa. Can see it and obviously the rugby would be top draw. Not sure about the travel.
- Georgia. Nope. Worse than Italy
- Fiji/Japan. If either played in the 6N for 5 years they’d have better records than Italy. Fiji playing their home games in a booze adjacent British city (Newcastle came to mind) would actually be quite interesting

It has unfortunately become a real issue. I also feel for Italy but it is really impacting the tournament.

None of the solutions seem particularly palatable and I’m not for promotion or relegation I don’t think. Also think adding SA would just change the whole dynamic and nature of the competition, in a bad way. Ina perfect world there would be a really good 2nd Tier competition but rugby is just too selfish for that to happen.

I think we probably just have to put up with it for a few years, they will get more competitive.

[Plato’sCave]

Because you are a utter fucking prick, fucking destroyed England.

Well fuck you too you pretendy taff cunt.

Pretendy what word is that, I don't fucking care that you may be a bit slow, you cannot make up words, dumb fucking ass.
and stop dribbling whilst your care worker feeds you.

This is the sort of quality exchange rooted in mutual respect that makes me want to spend more quality time here.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think the main point of that first try is that we can argue back and forth but any one of us would be furious if it was given against our team. Anyone is lying if they say otherwise.

Was walking with a mate this morning who’s take was that it was appalling sportsmanship from Biggar and the ref was complicit in that

No. Seriously.


Has your mate ever heard of the concept of "professional" sport? And for anyone to take the context of sportsmanship in the same breath as mentioning Farrell....... the same Farrell who routinely is a pain in the neck for refs and also routinely endangers opposition players with his persisting in illegal tackling. Refs complicit in not regularly red carding the cheap shot ***t FFS.

[Slick]

I think the main point of that first try is that we can argue back and forth but any one of us would be furious if it was given against our team. Anyone is lying if they say otherwise.

Was walking with a mate this morning who’s take was that it was appalling sportsmanship from Biggar and the ref was complicit in that

No. Seriously.


Has your mate ever heard of the concept of "professional" sport? And for anyone to take the context of sportsmanship in the same breath as mentioning Farrell....... the same Farrell who routinely is a pain in the neck for refs and also routinely endangers opposition players with his persisting in illegal tackling. Refs complicit in not regularly red carding the cheap shot ***t FFS.

Well, he was a pro rugby player and I didn’t mention Farrell. I don’t know why you are permanently dialled to 11 these days, Torq.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think the main point of that first try is that we can argue back and forth but any one of us would be furious if it was given against our team. Anyone is lying if they say otherwise.

Was walking with a mate this morning who’s take was that it was appalling sportsmanship from Biggar and the ref was complicit in that

No. Seriously.


Has your mate ever heard of the concept of "professional" sport? And for anyone to take the context of sportsmanship in the same breath as mentioning Farrell....... the same Farrell who routinely is a pain in the neck for refs and also routinely endangers opposition players with his persisting in illegal tackling. Refs complicit in not regularly red carding the cheap shot ***t FFS.

Well, he was a pro rugby player and I didn’t mention Farrell. I don’t know why you are permanently dialled to 11 these days, Torq.

Here's a thing. If the position had been reversed, the England fans would now all be hailing how smart/savvy Farrell was.

Cue n responses of righteous indignation.

[Torquemada 1420]

Dawson on Itoje

Something has to change. You have to get your head down and not compete for 50-50 balls. I do not know how he was not sin-binned with five penalties.

[Lobby]

I think the main point of that first try is that we can argue back and forth but any one of us would be furious if it was given against our team. Anyone is lying if they say otherwise.

Was walking with a mate this morning who’s take was that it was appalling sportsmanship from Biggar and the ref was complicit in that

No. Seriously.


Has your mate ever heard of the concept of "professional" sport? And for anyone to take the context of sportsmanship in the same breath as mentioning Farrell....... the same Farrell who routinely is a pain in the neck for refs and also routinely endangers opposition players with his persisting in illegal tackling. Refs complicit in not regularly red carding the cheap shot ***t FFS.

Well, he was a pro rugby player and I didn’t mention Farrell. I don’t know why you are permanently dialled to 11 these days, Torq.

For some reason, France losing a completely meaningless tournament in the Autumn appears to have given him PTSD.

[PlanetGlyndwr]

the knock-on discourse is getting very nauseating.

[Torquemada 1420]

This is an excellent analysis
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/six-nati ... -offender/
but summary

1) 1st try. Gauzere was completely within the law but practically wrong. Like I said earlier, I think he lost concentration when Biggar asked him to state when time was back on.

2) 2nd try: The first thing to clarify here is that once Gauzere ruled a try on field, TMO Ruiz had to find clear and obvious evidence with which to overturn this decision – and there was none.
Also confirms that the law is ambiguous.

3) Gauzere's other error (because point 2 is not his error) was to not sin bin Itoje........... which noticeably the Paddingtons and JMKs have all remained silent on the matter of.

4) Eng's game management/leadership/discipline is sh*t.

[GogLais]

This is an excellent analysis
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/six-nati ... -offender/
but summary

1) 1st try. Gauzere was completely within the law but practically wrong. Like I said earlier, I think he lost concentration when Biggar asked him to state when time was back on.

2) 2nd try: The first thing to clarify here is that once Gauzere ruled a try on field, TMO Ruiz had to find clear and obvious evidence with which to overturn this decision – and there was none.
Also confirms that the law is ambiguous.

3) Gauzere's other error (because point 2 is not his error) was to not sin bin Itoje........... which noticeably the Paddingtons and JMKs have all remained silent on the matter of.

4) Eng's game management/leadership/discipline is sh*t.

There's an implication there that the ref instructed Farrell to call his team together, that’s a bit different from have a word with them. If he in effect instructed them to gather together then it's a different kettle of poissons.

The other thing is "had England disregarded his instruction (the supposed one to gather together) and remained spread across the field Gauzere would quite rightly have viewed a yellow card as an entirely reasonable action". Does he mean carding Farrell for his original offence? Surely not?

[JM2K6]

I have Torq on ignore as I find him utterly exhausting, hence being 'silent' on the Itoje thing. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect someone who concedes 5 penalties to get yellowed. I think a few of them were very soft which probably impacted the ref's thinking, but you certainly couldn't complain if he got a yellow.

[Paddington Bear]

I don't think not sin binning a player who got pinged off the park anyway is remotely comparable to two decisions that resulted in 14 points. Bizarre argument.

[JM2K6]

Head knocked back at the impact. High dangerous tackle connected with force. Or are you changing your stance on high tackles for this one?

I'm saying what happened. Players getting knocked back with a chest tackle isn't high or dangerous, though I accept he should tackle lower or risk it going wrong - lowering the tackle height is important.

Players suffering from collisions like that is less about tackle height and more about the dangers of modern rugby in terms of the collisions being simply too great and the brain still suffering even if the head doesn't get hit - it's a different discussion. We currently aren't legislating against player size or anything, so there's not much to discuss there. Agreed he did clip the jaw, just about, but after the main big collision and with all the force going upwards (hence grazing).

Does that make sense? I'm not looking to excuse anything here. And I'm happy to revisit if someone can remind me roughly what time it happened, so I can look at it again.

Haven’t looked again. But found this.

63:30 match time.

The big slowmo directly behind Curry seems the clearest angle. To me, both players are crouching somewhat for contact, Curry is using legal technique, but he hits his chin as well after the initial contact. It's very close. Certainly don't think there's enough clarity there to sanction anyone, but it's absolutely fair to say that even if it was a legal tackle, more effort should've been made to lower the tackle height. Given refs try and find mitigation, there's buckets of it here, but likewise "I've seen 'em given"...

[Ymx]

Blimey these post match discussions seem to go much differently than they do on PR (I haven’t dared look there to be honest.)

I like it.

[GogLais]

Blimey these post match discussions seem to go much differently than they do on PR (I haven’t dared look there to be honest.)

I like it.

Passes the time when it's lockdown and the garden is too damp to do much.

[Torquemada 1420]

I have Torq on ignore as I find him utterly exhausting, hence being 'silent' on the Itoje thing. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect someone who concedes 5 penalties to get yellowed. I think a few of them were very soft which probably impacted the ref's thinking, but you certainly couldn't complain if he got a yellow.

Because you had your arse handed to you on a plate on the cricket thread.

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't think not sin binning a player who got pinged off the park anyway is remotely comparable to two decisions that resulted in 14 points. Bizarre argument.

No, the point is both your and JMK's selective senses of injustice. But carry on deflecting the both of you because I'm finding it hilarious how karma has come to bite the Eng on the arse here.

[Paddington Bear]

I don't think not sin binning a player who got pinged off the park anyway is remotely comparable to two decisions that resulted in 14 points. Bizarre argument.

No, the point is both your and JMK's selective senses of injustice. But carry on deflecting the both of you because I'm finding it hilarious how karma has come to bite the Eng on the arse here.

Should a player have got a yellow is categorically different to has a game been altered by a ref giving a team 14 points, given you made it clear you wanted a ref to die because he missed a knock on in the final of a mickey mouse tournament I’d have thought you’d understand why we’re upset with this.

[Slick]

The video I saw on Twitter of Genge refusing to clap the Welsh players during the tunnel was a bit sad.

He does increasingly come over as a bit of a knob.

[Slick]

[JM2K6]

Now that does properly stink of trying to find reasons to make it personal, tbh. Seems to happen after every England v Wales clash for some reason. The guy's miles away, staring into space.

[Slick]

Very decent come back from Genge to be fair.

Still comes across as a bit of a cock a lot of the time

[TB63]

[Plato’sCave]

The lack of yellow cards given to England thugs and persistent cheats in this game ensures I view this reffing display as utterly imbecilic.

Wales should have put >50 on the scoreboard.

[bessantj]

The lack of yellow cards given to England thugs and persistent cheats in this game ensures I view this reffing display as utterly imbecilic.

Wales should have put >50 on the scoreboard.

Cheeky fuckers got away with no red card. Probably why Wales got that first try (shocking reffing). Delighted with the result even if I couldn't watch it as I was working up in Machynlleth.

[JM2K6]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. There's clearly something going on there at the start of that video - whether it's Genge being held down or something more nefarious. I.e. the sort of shit that happens in every game. Genge reacts with a shove. Woopdefuckingdo, let's comb through the footage of every minute to find something to villify players for on social media.

[Slick]

The lack of yellow cards given to England thugs and persistent cheats in this game ensures I view this reffing display as utterly imbecilic.

Wales should have put >50 on the scoreboard.

Cheeky fuckers got away with no red card. Probably why Wales got that first try (shocking reffing). Delighted with the result even if I couldn't watch it as I was working up in Machynlleth.

Shocking lack of sense of humour from the Frenchman not sending an Englishman off in the 80th minute

[Plato’sCave]

The lack of yellow cards given to England thugs and persistent cheats in this game ensures I view this reffing display as utterly imbecilic.

Wales should have put >50 on the scoreboard.

Cheeky fuckers got away with no red card. Probably why Wales got that first try (shocking reffing). Delighted with the result even if I couldn't watch it as I was working up in Machynlleth.

Reasonably pleased with the triple crown, that silverware is mainly due to the other sides resorting to thuggery in an attempt to shut down what we now all evidently see as the start of something truly awe inspiring. Just desperate measures of oppositions to stop the inevitable new shining dawn.Rising from the ashes of numerous lacklustre in style and frankly boring grand slams, to create a true angelic form of Welsh-Pivacian rugby manna.