Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Slick]

Jesus, is that 4 days of you two going at each other now...

[Ymx]

Jesus, is that 4 days of you two going at each other now...

And I’m told off for not knowing which of the many ageist insults IH made, but suggested he didn’t or something.

Anyway, yes, it’s 4 days ..... so far.

[Insane_Homer]

Ok I think I have worked out why you think I am an old man..

Me too.

2) yes I am retired and happy to be retired that is primarily an age thing rather than a fabulously wealthy thing.

[SaintK]

The rowing back has started. The polls and focus groups not looking good on this one?

No 10 refused to rule out NHS staff in England being given a one-off bonus in addition to their proposed 1% pay rise. The prime minister’s spokesman defended the planned pay rise - but repeatedly refused to rule out staff being topped up with a bonus outside the pay review process.

It is how they will get around the pay rise row without admitting they got it wrong, technically it is not a payrise, it is a one off payment and they can badge it to make themselves look good, so something like "For all the hard work and effort you put into caring for people during the covid crisis" Virtue signalling at its very best.

This will soon become a backtracking stampede. I wonder just how many days it will take for a full U turn? The "final decision" has still to be made

Robert Buckland, the justice secretary, has been out giving interviews about the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill being unveiled today, and he dropped a hint that the final decision on a pay rise for NHS staff might be more generous than the 1% increase proposed by the government.
Speaking on BBC Breakfast he said:
The final recommendations have not yet been made. We have got to remember that in large other swathes of the public sector there will be a pay freeze save for the lowest paid. I don’t think at the moment we are at the end of this process.
I think that we need to see what the recommendations are and I very much hope that the outcome - whilst it might not be an outcome in these difficult circumstances that will result in pay rises that everybody would want to see - that the work that has been done by NHS workers will be recognised in a way that is appropriate, bearing in mind the constraints we are all under.

[Ymx]

I actually think a bonus is the best way of handling it.

Recognition for the year been. The extraordinary hours they had to previously put in.

Out of interest do they get overtime?

[Ymx]

Time and a half > 37.5 hours

https://www.nhsemployers.org/tchandbook ... e-payments

[I like neeps]

NHS staff across England were supposed to get a higher pay rise, the head of the health service in England has told MPs and he called for the pay review body to be allowed to do its work without “fear or favour”.

Giving evidence to the Commons health committee on Tuesday morning Sir Simon Stevens confirmed the NHS long term plan would have seen more than a million staff on the NHS Agenda for Change contract given a 2.1 per cent pay rise from April

...

[SaintK]

NHS staff across England were supposed to get a higher pay rise, the head of the health service in England has told MPs and he called for the pay review body to be allowed to do its work without “fear or favour”.

Giving evidence to the Commons health committee on Tuesday morning Sir Simon Stevens confirmed the NHS long term plan would have seen more than a million staff on the NHS Agenda for Change contract given a 2.1 per cent pay rise from April

...

That was budgeted in 2019 and was still expected to go ahead.......until last week
What's the betting it ends up there or the equivalent in a lump sum payment

[Opensides Butler]

Anyhoo have a good day I am off to split logs

Uphill gardening again Sir?

[Insane_Homer]

Meanwhile back in July in France, while we were clapping for our health workers.

The French government has agreed to give pay rises worth €8bn (£7.2bn; $9bn) to health workers, as it hailed their role in fighting coronavirus.

The deal was signed with trade unions on Monday after seven weeks of fraught negotiations.

Health workers have been revered as heroes during the pandemic with regular displays of public appreciation.

But they wanted more than recognition and have held protests to demand pay rises and better funding for hospitals.

Some demonstrators were fined for breaking social-distancing rules. More than 200,000 infections and 30,000 deaths have been recorded in France, one of Europe's worst-hit countries.

Now the government has reached an agreement on pay that will see the wages of health workers rise by €183 a month on average.

The agreement, which most trade unions have signed up to, was hailed by the new French Prime Minister, Jean Castex, as a "historic moment for our health system".

"This is first of all recognition of those who have been on the front line in the fight against this epidemic," Mr Castex said at a signing ceremony.

[Hal Jordan]

I see we're off to the voter suppression and disenfranchisement races with the new Republican, I mean Tory, proposal to introduce photo ID requirements for elections.

I'd be surprised at tactics to exclude the poor and minorities from the democratic process, but, well, Tory scum and all that.

Also 10 years in the clink for damaging statues. Jesus.

[Biffer]

Hang on are you suggesting that the NHS aren’t doing knee ops? Well that blows IH’s argument out of the water

Where did I claim that?

You did, to such a significant level (that you're yet to quantify) that apparently there are a large enough number free beds available to warrant a NHS pay rise of 1%.

That is so much shite, I maintained that the NHS was cancelling you asked me to prove it, frankly it’s on you to disprove my statement rather than me to prove it! You might want to look at today’s DT there is an article stating the NHS has a backlog of 6 million patients due to the pandemic...

That's utter bollocks. If you make a statement it's up to you to prove it, not for someone else to disprove it.

[Openside]

Ok I think I have worked out why you think I am an old man..

Me too.

2) yes I am retired and happy to be retired that is primarily an age thing rather than a fabulously wealthy thing.

How old are you? as when I met you I wouldn't have put you much younger than me?

I am delighted to be living rent free in your head that you go back and research posts I made months if not years ago

[Openside]

Where did I claim that?

You did, to such a significant level (that you're yet to quantify) that apparently there are a large enough number free beds available to warrant a NHS pay rise of 1%.

That is so much shite, I maintained that the NHS was cancelling you asked me to prove it, frankly it’s on you to disprove my statement rather than me to prove it! You might want to look at today’s DT there is an article stating the NHS has a backlog of 6 million patients due to the pandemic...

That's utter bollocks. If you make a statement it's up to you to prove it, not for someone else to disprove it.

Prove it!!

It is well documented, no need to prove anything btw

[Insane_Homer]

How old are you? as when I met you I wouldn't have put you much younger than me?

I'm still in my 40s.

[Openside]

How old are you? as when I met you I wouldn't have put you much younger than me?

I'm still in my 40s.

Jeez tough paper round

[Insane_Homer]

How old are you? as when I met you I wouldn't have put you much younger than me?

I'm still in my 40s.

Jeez tough paper round

2012 London cabal? I was in my John Smit phase

Also Insane Homer looks like Openside's, marginally more butch, younger brother.

Younger??? cough splutter , the cnut is going bald :P

[Openside]

I'm still in my 40s.

Jeez tough paper round

2012 London cabal? I was in my John Smit phase

Also Insane Homer looks like Openside's, marginally more butch, younger brother.

Younger??? cough splutter , the cnut is going bald :P

I am in awe of your search skills

[Insane_Homer]

Matt Handoncock being a slimely prick in 2018

[SaintK]

S0 they're going ahead with a feasibility study for another of the blonde slug's vanity projects!
Hope it doesn't cost £50+M like he spaffed on the Garden Bridge project.

A major transport connectivity review is assessing the feasibility of a bridge or tunnel between Northern Ireland and Scotland, PA Media reports

[Paddington Bear]

S0 they're going ahead with a feasibility study for another of the blonde slug's vanity projects!
Hope it doesn't cost £50+M like he spaffed on the Garden Bridge project.

A major transport connectivity review is assessing the feasibility of a bridge or tunnel between Northern Ireland and Scotland, PA Media reports

Take half that money and we could have proper cycle lanes and footpaths across the whole country. Not as exciting though.

[salanya]

S0 they're going ahead with a feasibility study for another of the blonde slug's vanity projects!
Hope it doesn't cost £50+M like he spaffed on the Garden Bridge project.

A major transport connectivity review is assessing the feasibility of a bridge or tunnel between Northern Ireland and Scotland, PA Media reports

Couldn't believe that this morning: there's no money to go beyond a 1% pay rise for nurses, the awfulness that is HS2 is running way over budget, they were 'struggling' to pay for poor kids' lunches during term holidays, but let's look into a bridge or tunnel between Scotland and Northern Ireland (hint: there's a reason it hasn't been done yet).

This government has some nerve, amongst all the corruption/cronyism etc. Staunchly defending Dido's Test and Trace again today, with total lies.

Cameron has/had many failings, but at least there was a semblance of statesmanship ongoing in those days.

[tabascoboy]

S0 they're going ahead with a feasibility study for another of the blonde slug's vanity projects!
Hope it doesn't cost £50+M like he spaffed on the Garden Bridge project.

A major transport connectivity review is assessing the feasibility of a bridge or tunnel between Northern Ireland and Scotland, PA Media reports

Couldn't believe that this morning: there's no money to go beyond a 1% pay rise for nurses, the awfulness that is HS2 is running way over budget, they were 'struggling' to pay for poor kids' lunches during term holidays, but let's look into a bridge or tunnel between Scotland and Northern Ireland (hint: there's a reason it hasn't been done yet).

This government has some nerve, amongst all the corruption/cronyism etc. Staunchly defending Dido's Test and Trace again today, with total lies.

Cameron has/had many failings, but at least there was a semblance of statesmanship ongoing in those days.

And add Crossrail coming in 4 years late and £4bn over budget - and they believe they can do this vanity project?

[Paddington Bear]

S0 they're going ahead with a feasibility study for another of the blonde slug's vanity projects!
Hope it doesn't cost £50+M like he spaffed on the Garden Bridge project.

Couldn't believe that this morning: there's no money to go beyond a 1% pay rise for nurses, the awfulness that is HS2 is running way over budget, they were 'struggling' to pay for poor kids' lunches during term holidays, but let's look into a bridge or tunnel between Scotland and Northern Ireland (hint: there's a reason it hasn't been done yet).

This government has some nerve, amongst all the corruption/cronyism etc. Staunchly defending Dido's Test and Trace again today, with total lies.

Cameron has/had many failings, but at least there was a semblance of statesmanship ongoing in those days.

And add Crossrail coming in 4 years late and £4bn over budget - and they believe they can do this vanity project?

Infrastructure projects almost always run late and over budget - it isn't a reason not to do them. Who cares how much the Jubilee line cost or when it opened now, for example? And before we pretend this is something uniquely British and awful let's not forget the Berlin Airport fiasco.

[salanya]

Paddington: you make a fair point about projects like this over-running in general.

But to announce such a vanity project when you're already overrunning on several others, in the middle of a very difficult economical time with maximum borrowing, whilst often basic infrastructure is (severely) lacking (noting your comments on cycle lanes, and the list goes on), this is just a joke. And not a funny one.

[Openside]

Didn’t someone do a cost analysis for it and calculated for every lorry that used it for the next twenty years it would cost the taxpayer 2k per lorry

[tabascoboy]

Infrastructure projects almost always run late and over budget - it isn't a reason not to do them. Who cares how much the Jubilee line cost or when it opened now, for example? And before we pretend this is something uniquely British and awful let's not forget the Berlin Airport fiasco.

It is however a reason to suggest caution and a true cost/benefits analysis, and not simply push something through because it's a dear leader's pet project.

Improve the A75 connection by all means though.

[Paddington Bear]

Paddington: you make a fair point about projects like this over-running in general.

But to announce such a vanity project when you're already overrunning on several others, in the middle of a very difficult economical time with maximum borrowing, whilst often basic infrastructure is (severely) lacking (noting your comments on cycle lanes, and the list goes on), this is just a joke. And not a funny one.

Yeah my point was around Crossrail, the tunnel idea is crazy.

[Sandstorm]

Didn’t someone do a cost analysis for it and calculated for every lorry that used it for the next twenty years it would cost the taxpayer 2k per lorry

By the time that's half-done both Scotland and NI will have left the Union. Let them pay for their own tunnel!

[tabascoboy]

Paddington: you make a fair point about projects like this over-running in general.

But to announce such a vanity project when you're already overrunning on several others, in the middle of a very difficult economical time with maximum borrowing, whilst often basic infrastructure is (severely) lacking (noting your comments on cycle lanes, and the list goes on), this is just a joke. And not a funny one.

Yeah my point was around Crossrail, the tunnel idea is crazy.

And at least with Crossrail they weren't trying to build over/through a massive munitions dump! Oh and radioactive waste too...

[fishfoodie]

Didn’t someone do a cost analysis for it and calculated for every lorry that used it for the next twenty years it would cost the taxpayer 2k per lorry

Yeah, that was me. I don't know if mentioned in that post, because it wasn't clear at the time; but the cost the Government gave, was just for the tunnel; so my estimate was on that figure.

If you add in the cost of building a decent road, or rail link to Carlisle; & the same on the NI side; God alone knows how much that adds to the cost.

[fishfoodie]

Paddington: you make a fair point about projects like this over-running in general.

But to announce such a vanity project when you're already overrunning on several others, in the middle of a very difficult economical time with maximum borrowing, whilst often basic infrastructure is (severely) lacking (noting your comments on cycle lanes, and the list goes on), this is just a joke. And not a funny one.

Yeah my point was around Crossrail, the tunnel idea is crazy.

And at least with Crossrail they weren't trying to build over/through a massive munitions dump! Oh and radioactive waste too...

you've forgotten the mustard gas, they added at the end of WW I. A few shells of that have washed up on beaches too

[Openside]

Didn’t someone do a cost analysis for it and calculated for every lorry that used it for the next twenty years it would cost the taxpayer 2k per lorry

By the time that's half-done both Scotland and NI will have left the Union. Let them pay for their own tunnel!

Is a valid point and one that shouldn't even be contemplated until wee crankie has resigned...

[SaintK]

Allegra earning her corn after the blonde slug's lying performance at PMQ's. She'll be doing a lot of that in the future as he just can't stop himself

So, by my count: Downing Street failed 19 times to apologise or correct the record, or say the PM would do so.
That was despite the No10 repeatedly admitting his claim had to be "clarified" by the Speaker, and offering absolutely no evidence to suggest it might be true.

No.10 briefing: PM's press sec Allegra Stratton refuses to admit the PM got his facts wrong on how Labour MPs voted on NHS pay. Says the Speaker dealt with the issue and corrected the record. Clear Downing St thinks the PM got it wrong but refusal to own up and correct himself.

Strange scenes at the No 10 lobby briefing as PM's press secretary, Allegra Stratton, refuses to formally accept Johnson misled Commons at PMQs when he – wrongly – said Labour voted against last NS budget. She says as Labour raised a clarification, matter closed. Not sure it is.

Spoiler

Show

'PM is concerned about the truth' - How No 10 repeatedly dodged calls to admit Johnson misled MPs
No 10 still says it intends to regular televised lobby briefing once it’s safe for dozens of journalists to gather in the same briefing room, although many of us suspect that, like other ideas from the Dominic Cummings, this one will also be quietly ditched. But in the meantime, just so people know what they are missing, here is a transcript of the exchanges at today’s lobby about Boris Johnson’s false claim at PMQs. (See 2.15pm.)

AS is Allegra Stratton, the PM’s press secretary, and MH is Macer Hall, political editor of the Daily Express and lobby chairman. Lobby briefings are currently conducted by conference call. Journalists submit questions in advance to the chair, who puts the questions as colleagues listen in. If reporters want to submit further questions as the briefing is going on, they can do so via WhatsApp.

I’ve edited this lightly to take out bits where it got very, very repetitive, but nothing of substance has been admitted.

MH: Will the PM apologise [for misleading MPs] and correct the record on this?

AS: The Speaker addressed it in the house immediately after the shadow health secretary, and the Speaker said that it was a point of clarification, and he regarded it as having been dealt with.

MH: Shouldn’t the prime minister clarify it? It’s not really up to the shadow health minister to clarify, is it?

AS: The Speaker addressed this, so it’s not about the shadow health secretary. He accepted it as a point of clarification and he regarded it as having been addressed.

MH: So [the PM] does accept he was wrong in this case, he did say the wrong thing to the house?

AS: The Speaker regards the point of clarification as having been made, and that’s appropriate.

MH: This is the third occasion in several weeks that the prime minister has got points of fact wrong in the House of Commons. Does he have a problem with getting the facts right?

AS: No, he doesn’t. The Speaker addressed this [etc etc] ...

MH: Don’t MPs have a responsibility to clarify their own mistakes? It’s not something that should be left to the Speaker.

AS: The key thing is that this was dealt with swiftly and the Speaker, who has enormous respect and authority in parliament, regards it as a point of clarification that has now been dealt with.

MH: Does the prime minister think it’s the Speaker’s job to correct the prime minister’s mistakes, and not the prime minister’s job to do that?

AS: It’s not a conversation I’ve been able to have with him, because he was in the chamber and we were coming over here. But the Speaker, who has enormous authority in the House of Commons, regarded the point of clarification as having been made ...

MH: Isn’t this part of a pattern of behaviour? Doesn’t the prime minister have a slightly casual relationship with the truth?

AS: On the specifics of today, the Speaker addressed it, and it was dealt with extremely quickly ...

MH: The prime minister walked out and didn’t listen to it, did he?

AS: Because prime minister’s questions was finished, and the prime minister left the chamber. There’s nothing unusual in that. The Speaker has already addressed this issue [etc etc] ...

MH: Will the prime minister correct the record?

AS: On the record is the Speaker saying it’s a point of clarification and it’s been dealt with.

MH: Does No 10 accept the prime minister was wrong? Yes or no?

AS: The Speaker has dealt with this [etc etc] ...

MH: If it’s just an honest mistake, or he was badly briefed, why doesn’t he just say this and apologise?

AS: The key thing here is that an authority in parliament, the Speaker, has dealt with this issue ....

MH: Shouldn’t the prime minister actually correct the record?

AS: The record will show the Speaker has listened to what the shadow health secretary had to say and regards it as a point of clarification that has now been dealt with ...

MH: The prime minister doesn’t seem to be concerned about the truth of these matters.

AS: The prime minister is concerned about the truth of these matters. He comes to prime minister’s questions, he comes to the chamber frequently, and answers a great number of questions from all sides of the house ...

MH: Does the prime minister agree with the ministerial code (pfd) which says “it is of paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to parliament, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”. Does he agree with that?

AS: He absolutely agrees with that in the ministerial code. In this instance, the system worked. Jonathan Ashworth made his point and the Speaker responded ....

MH: Do you feel that the prime minister has a problem, that his obfuscation [with issues] does not help him in the public eye ... In the past he said in a public debate “the truth matters” and the public laughed out loud ...

AS: No, he doesn’t have a problem at all. The prime minister said what he said in that debate and you saw in the last general election that he was returned to parliament with a huge majority, which reflects the widespread admiration and affection with which he is held by the British people ...

Although Stratton argued that the Speaker said after the point of order that he regarded the matter as dealt with, Sir Linday Hoyle never said there was no need for Johnson to correct the record.

Hoyle just said, after Jonathan Ashworth made his point of order, that it was actually “a point of clarification” and that “that part has been achieved”. By that, Hoyle meant the intervention was over. He did not mean that he thought there was no need for any further clarification or apology from No 10.

[salanya]

Don't worry, they're definitely working on it, they're so committed, aka 'we are working on plans to do this shortly....'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56353313

[Hal Jordan]

Yeah my point was around Crossrail, the tunnel idea is crazy.

And at least with Crossrail they weren't trying to build over/through a massive munitions dump! Oh and radioactive waste too...

you've forgotten the mustard gas, they added at the end of WW I. A few shells of that have washed up on beaches too

There's a great Bob Newhart sketch about this, in his "You only hear one side of the telephone conversation" style.

[I like neeps]

From 2019 but this explains it:

https://amp.ft.com/content/c69b49de-136 ... ssion=true

1 in 5 boomers are millionaires. Mostly thanks to asset wealth of course. It's time to tax assets.

[SaintK]

Mr Speaker not impressed with our PM lying at PMQ's yestewrday

Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the Commons Speaker, has piled pressure on Boris Johnson to correct an untruthful claim made yesterday at PMQs.
Johnson left the chamber immediately after his weekly grilling by MPs, so escaped having to hear a complaint made about him for saying Labour voted against the NHS funding bill.
Today, no doubt after quite a lot of anger from opposition MPs, Hoyle issued a new statement - saying that the onus is on MPs to “correct the record if they make an inaccurate statement to the House”.
He cited the ministerial code, which says MPs should “correct any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”.
And he said ministers “must take responsibility for correcting the record if a mistake has been made”. In a hint that a tougher rebuke might follow if the PM did not admit his mistake, Hoyle added:
It is not dishonourable to make a mistake, but to seek to avoid admitting one is a different matter.

[SaintK]

Mr Speaker not impressed with our PM lying at PMQ's yestewrday

Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the Commons Speaker, has piled pressure on Boris Johnson to correct an untruthful claim made yesterday at PMQs.
Johnson left the chamber immediately after his weekly grilling by MPs, so escaped having to hear a complaint made about him for saying Labour voted against the NHS funding bill.
Today, no doubt after quite a lot of anger from opposition MPs, Hoyle issued a new statement - saying that the onus is on MPs to “correct the record if they make an inaccurate statement to the House”.
He cited the ministerial code, which says MPs should “correct any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”.
And he said ministers “must take responsibility for correcting the record if a mistake has been made”. In a hint that a tougher rebuke might follow if the PM did not admit his mistake, Hoyle added:
It is not dishonourable to make a mistake, but to seek to avoid admitting one is a different matter.

This is just becoming bizarre and very Trumpian!

No 10 claims PM does not need to apologise for misleading MPs - because his words did not mean what people thought
Today’s Downing Street lobby briefing was another classic for those interested in the extent to which Boris Johnson, and his aides, will do almost anything rather than admit that he has made a mistake.
But now No 10 is saying there is no need to the PM to correct the record - because in fact he was referring to Labour voting against the Queen’s speech, and so he was right all along. Allegra Stratton, the PM’s press secretary, said:

The prime minister was referring to Labour voting against the Queen’s speech in January of last year.

When it was pointed out that in the Commons yesterday Johnson said that Labour had voted against the “document” that Starmer was holding in his hand, Stratton said Labour’s vote against the Queen’s speech was “the basis” for the point Johnson made.

Asked why she had not said this yesterday, she said she had not had time to speak to Johnson between PMQs and the start of yesterday’s lobby briefing. She did not explain why, if Johnson’s account is accurate, there was no attempt to explain that to journalists later in the day.

This new line means Johnson’s won’t he apologising for misleading MPs, or correcting the record, because he has decided he was right all along.

[FalseBayFC]

I see we're off to the voter suppression and disenfranchisement races with the new Republican, I mean Tory, proposal to introduce photo ID requirements for elections.

I'd be surprised at tactics to exclude the poor and minorities from the democratic process, but, well, Tory scum and all that.

Also 10 years in the clink for damaging statues. Jesus.

Why do people in the US and UK think its so hard for the poor and minorities to get photo id's. People where I live find it easy. And they're poorer than anyone in the UK.