White privilege and other matters

[notfatcat]

Also an excellent point.

Thete are so many different ways of explaining this. If you keep a level and clear head, it is difficult to not be a little in both camps.

Thomas Sowell has been explaining these things for a very long time.

The same Thomas Sowell who said:

"One can cherry-pick the factual studies, or cite some studies that have subsequently been discredited, but the great bulk of the studies show that gun control laws do not in fact control guns. On net balance, they do not save lives, but cost lives."

Sorry he's full of crap on most issues.

Oh well in that case all of society's ills are down to white privilege. You win.

[assfly]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

[Chilli]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

Also a great point

[Openside]

Was there supposed to be a response there Random1.

I was finding this quite interesting and reasoned. Apart from IH’s twitter crybaby like response.

Yes it is a fascinating debate by clearly intelligent erudite people oh and IH

[Random1]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

Smoke screen as in something that has been actively deployed by someone to obscure class division as the true picture?

[Random1]

Also an excellent point.

Thete are so many different ways of explaining this. If you keep a level and clear head, it is difficult to not be a little in both camps.

Thomas Sowell has been explaining these things for a very long time.

The same Thomas Sowell who said:

"One can cherry-pick the factual studies, or cite some studies that have subsequently been discredited, but the great bulk of the studies show that gun control laws do not in fact control guns. On net balance, they do not save lives, but cost lives."

Sorry he's full of crap on most issues.

I do find it interesting how some people dismiss someone’s argument on something because of their argument on something else.

If I were to take that approach I’d dismiss all religious people and anyone anyone that doesn’t agree Jason Robinson is, so far, the most exciting player of the 21st century.

[assfly]

Smoke screen as in something that has been actively deployed by someone to obscure class division as the true picture?

Perhaps smokescreen isn't the right word, as I don't think it's deliberate. But if you draw back and look at it from a global point of view, it all comes down to class.

The white privilege argument doesn't work in countries where whites are a negligible part of the population. But the same rules apply if you remove skin colour and replace with class. This applies in India, and many African countries, for example.

I'm no Marxist, but this part of his theory (as a level of analysis) is something I have long since been fascinated with.

[OomStruisbaai]

Apartheid is a bitch

[Sards]

Apartheid is a bitch

The sins of the father will always be visited on the children....but there will be a point where the excuses will run dry and then accountability will be the order of the day.
I feel for the children in South Africa....how do you protect your children?...and give them the same oppurtunities that people of colour are afforded in South Africa...
The only real option is to build a future for them. In other words give them a business to take over and grow or vok up....but at least give them a start.
So some may construe this as white privilidge because my children will get a start in life.....interested to hear how this is white privilidge....especially in the South African context where we are biased against because of the colour of our skin and excluded from the job market

[robmatic]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

But the middle class people having the conversation really don't want to discuss class or wealth though, for some reason.

[Sards]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

But the middle class people having the conversation really don't want to discuss class or wealth though, for some reason.

Maybe because middle class people have to work their butts off just like everyone else....

[Tichtheid]

I've not had a chance to read through and digest this properly, but it's a NYT article on race v class and how each determine outcomes.

Extensive Data Shows Punishing
Reach of Racism for Black Boys

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... k-men.html

[OomStruisbaai]

Apartheid is a bitch

The sins of the father will always be visited on the children....but there will be a point where the excuses will run dry and then accountability will be the order of the day.
I feel for the children in South Africa....how do you protect your children?...and give them the same oppurtunities that people of colour are afforded in South Africa...
The only real option is to build a future for them. In other words give them a business to take over and grow or vok up....but at least give them a start.
So some may construe this as white privilidge because my children will get a start in life.....interested to hear how this is white privilidge....especially in the South African context where we are biased against because of the colour of our skin and excluded from the job market

Had this discussion with my older sister yesterday.

We had the privileges when we were young. (Acknowledge our sin, is the first step to forgiveness). Now our kids are on the other side and they take responsibility for this.

That close the cycle but then you need to go a step further. Mine was Nigeria, then you realise we still live with a white bread under the arm. All Saffers really dont know what it is to suffer. Our lot is spoiled rotten, the Zimbabwiers, Malawiiers, Nigerians, exc know what it is to work hard to survive day to day. Thats why we hve this xenophofic kak in SA.

[assfly]

I've not had a chance to read through and digest this properly, but it's a NYT article on race v class and how each determine outcomes.

Extensive Data Shows Punishing
Reach of Racism for Black Boys

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... k-men.html

Interesting read. Great graphics too.

[Plato’sCave]

Being from the poorest nation in Western Europe, this white privilege is nothing to do with me.

[terangi48]

Been an interesting read......i'd link privilege with wealth......... and power. White privilege to me only applies in European home countries, and their colonies that were acquired often by infiltration or invasion, taking over the nations most valuable asset......land. In countries where colonisation was not an issue, wealth and power exists within their own "nationalities". (ie....China, India, etc).....and cannot be called white privilege.....and can be called wealthy privilege.

It seems to me, that wealth and white, allows those in this category (ie...European or European Colonies) to live parallel lives to others who are not white ad or poor......because of the choice wealth gives them......the setting up of exclusive institutions: schools, hospitals, etc

There are many exceptions to these people, (anyone from outside this grouping) however whose worth cannot be ignored, as they often become partners/assets in their drive for the wealth that sustains them......or what they bring is beneficial to society as a whole.

The parallel life bit being the cycle that is : birth.....private schooling......tertiary education......being accepted as suitable to become captains of industry/pollies/judiciary/etc........belonging to societal groups and neighbourhoods.........attaining a freedom and privilege that money brings.

It is often that these parallel groups meet and mix only in institutional structures: Army, Church, Parlialment (House of Lords), Law Courts, Banking,.....and it doesn't take any brilliance to work out which group produced the chiefs, and which produced the indians, who is creating the law and who are living by that law., who has the wealth and who are hired to create the wealth.

However........

Sometimes aspects of this pattern come under threat.......from outside the accepted group. Have just completed reading a long read about how a weallthy chinese billionaire has shaken up the wealthy english in an exclusive neighbourhood called Wentworth......the Chinese billionaire ramped up the membership fees to such an extent with 150,000 pound debentures and an annual fees of 15000 pounds, that the privilegd wealthy whites are having to change golf clubs because they can't afford "the new exclusivity" to belong to their neighbourhood golf club.. Filthy rich v Rich.

Privilege to me therefore, goes with the wealth........and the power it brings.

[mat the expat]

Wentworth......the Chinese billionaire ramped up the membership fees to such an extent with 150,000 pound debentures and an annual fees of 15000 pounds, that the privilegd wealthy whites are having to change golf clubs because they can't afford "the new exclusivity" to belong to their neighbourhood golf club.. Filthy rich v Rich.

Privilege to me therefore, goes with the wealth........and the power it brings.

That makes me smile

[Line6 HXFX]

I have experienced terrific abuse for being unemployed, that was akin to the worst racist abuse anyone can have.
Real proper dehumanising chilling hatred, that often made me extremely and deeply deeply anxious.

There are no laws about what you can say to a unemployed person. Even an unemployed person who was seriously constrained by his caring commitments.
It is open season.

I even resorted to posting my eight brilliant absolutely glowing references, saying that I was a terrific and highly skilled worker.
Didn't even budge the flame on the burning intense fire of hatred.

There are plenty of people who wil always think there is a taxcut in it for themselves to portray the jobless or people the see as lesser in society (the poor, sick and unemployed), absolutely terribly.
There just needs to be protections in law against this sort of stuff.
The unemployed will always have serious and powerful enemies.
People who have self serving contempt.
Here is the dangerous thing about self serving contempt, as the contempt is self serving, as it serves them to have it then no indignity, no hardship that the inflict on them will ever be enough.
Their self serving contempt will always be there...as it serves them to have it, "no matter what".
Martin Luther King once said
" It may be true that the law cannot change the heart, but it can restrain the heartless".

[assfly]

I have experienced terrific abuse for being unemployed, that was akin to the worst racist abuse anyone can have.

Hmm not sure about that. The worst racist abuse can lead to, well, death.

Also, your employment status can change overnight. Racist abuse is something many people experience over a lifetime.

What you've gone through sounds awful, but I'd pick a different point of comparison.

[eldanielfire]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

Indeed. WP only works when you describe a trend rather then a cause. White people are more likely to be richer and gain from privilege gained from money and class in certain ways. I don't see any council estate kids gain any sort of white privilege. It also doesn't explain how Chinese and Indian kids do better than their peers in all areas in education and work.

[eldanielfire]

I've not had a chance to read through and digest this properly, but it's a NYT article on race v class and how each determine outcomes.

Extensive Data Shows Punishing
Reach of Racism for Black Boys

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... k-men.html

Interesting read. Great graphics too.

I think one of the issues with this data is it focuses on money alone, as if that is the only indicator of class or culture. It touches on this in the boys v girls comparison. However I agree the presence of role models for boys is important and none can be better than a father figure.

A lot of that is addressed in the Q&A:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ility.html

A good one:

What are the common factors among black boys who stay rich or are upwardly mobile versus those who become poor or incarcerated or who stay poor?

Priti Irani, Niskayuna, N.Y.

The researchers found that the neighborhoods where poor black boys did well, and as well as their white peers, shared three factors: less discrimination, low poverty rates and, among low-income black families, a larger share of fathers present. (The fathers might serve as role models, or they could be a sign that these neighborhoods have other qualities that benefit families, like job opportunities and low incarceration rates.) There are few such neighborhoods in the United States, however. The research shows that neighborhoods with higher test scores and lower poverty rates make a difference for all children, whether rich or poor.

— Claire Cain Miller, Reporter, The Upshot

Which suggests culture, family role models and being surrounded by alternative paths and opportunities to take in life are hugely influential. I think a massive issue in the US is that the rich and poor are hugely separated by miles of city. Take London for example, every borough has rich and poor areas geographically quite close. This helps. I believe it's not helped in many gentrified areas there isn't enough social housing mixed in with new builds for the rich. Integrate these areas better and there are better outcomes for society.

[Hugo]

It also doesn't explain how Chinese and Indian kids do better than their peers in all areas in education and work.

This is something that is important to note in my opinion. I feel like there is this outdated perception that WASPs still have the upper hand in education, academia, the workplace, boardrooms, acquisition of wealth etc. That used to be the case but times change. I was reading the NYT article on Cornel West being denied tenure at Harvard and one of the reasons that the author suggested was the donors at Harvard don't like his support of Palestine and his previous criticism of the President of Harvard as "the Ariel Sharon of higher education". For that he was of course dubbed an antisemite. Jews have supplanted WASPs as the most powerful caste in the United States, per capita they have far more influence, power connections and wealth than the average white: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 03,00.html

According to the study, the median net worth of people believing in Judaism is calculated at 150,890 USD, while the median net worth of conservative Protestants (including Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, Christian Scientists) was 26,200 USD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_an ... Scientists)%20was%2026%2C200%20USD.


Also, in the USA Asians have greater net worth and educational achievement than whites too.

[Tichtheid]

I think a lot of the posts here are missing the point, and that is that racism does not recognise class. A guy can step out of his Rolls Royce clad in his Saville Row suit and hand-made brogues, turn the corner and still be called the N word.

At every level of the class system there is racism and there are barriers to overcome.

[Plato’sCave]

I’m sure it’s an emotive topic for some people but it’s fuck all to do with me.

[Tichtheid]

Amanda Gorman: US poet says security guard labelled her 'suspicious'

"This is the reality of black girls: One day you're called an icon, the next day, a threat," she wrote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56304235

[Ymx]

I’m sure it’s an emotive topic for some people but it’s fuck all to do with me.

[Tichtheid]

Oh the ironing, etc

[robmatic]

I think a lot of the posts here are missing the point, and that is that racism does not recognise class. A guy can step out of his Rolls Royce clad in his Saville Row suit and hand-made brogues, turn the corner and still be called the N word.

At every level of the class system there is racism and there are barriers to overcome.

Let's not underestimate how entrenched the class system is in the UK. Of course, people of all classes will encounter prejudice based on race, but there is still an awful lot of deference and judgement based on accent and other class markers.

I find that people who benefit from class privilege tend to dismiss it as an issue, probably in the same way that white people don't see racism as an issue.

[Lemoentjie]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

Smoke screen as in something that has been actively deployed by someone to obscure class division as the true picture?

Yes.

Look at when the big corporations started to push this stuff. Around 2011.

What was happening at the time? Occupy Wall Steet, one of the best class solidarity movements in years.

Now the big corps frame themselves as defenders of minorities (in a USA sense, no room for Afrikaners or Uyghurs) and they use that as a smokescreen and a defensive shield.

[Fangle]

There is/was prejudice amongst the black communities as well. According to the book, Our Kind of People by Lawrence Otis Graham, there are societies of the black elite, who have their own clubs, holiday venues, dances/cotillions etc. To belong you must have gone to certain elite black universities as well as passing the brown paper bag test. For this your skin has to be of lighter hue than a brown paper bag. And the ruler test to check the straightness of your hair.

This book was written twenty odd years ago, so things hopefully have changed.

And in the book, The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin it mentions that he felt picked on at school for having such a dark skin.

[Biffer]

Seeing as we don't have a 'Piers Morgan is a Cunt' thread this is as good a place as any to welcome the fact he's gone from ITV, although I'm sure he'll be off to spout bile on GB News with Andrew Neil before long.

[Insane_Homer]

[notfatcat]

Amanda Gorman: US poet says security guard labelled her 'suspicious'

"This is the reality of black girls: One day you're called an icon, the next day, a threat," she wrote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56304235

Similar thing happened to Oumou Kanoute. Well, she said it did and that's all that counts really.

[notfatcat]

I'm not seeing the irony that Joseph mentions.

[assfly]

There is/was prejudice amongst the black communities as well. According to the book, Our Kind of People by Lawrence Otis Graham, there are societies of the black elite, who have their own clubs, holiday venues, dances/cotillions etc. To belong you must have gone to certain elite black universities as well as passing the brown paper bag test. For this your skin has to be of lighter hue than a brown paper bag. And the ruler test to check the straightness of your hair.

This book was written twenty odd years ago, so things hopefully have changed.

And in the book, The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin it mentions that he felt picked on at school for having such a dark skin.

That's not far removed from what it's like in Kenya. Whites make up such a small part of the population, the conversation is about tribe. Not surprising, the tribe with the lighter skin (Kikuyu) tend to make up the majority of the government and all major positions in business. They are also the majority of residents in the posh neighbourhoods now. Coming from one of the Nilotic tribes is always going to work against you here.

Kenyans are vocal about this as they have in effect continued a lot of the policies of the colonial government. Race was replaced by tribe, both of which can be seen through the lens of classism.

[Random1]

I think a lot of the posts here are missing the point, and that is that racism does not recognise class. A guy can step out of his Rolls Royce clad in his Saville Row suit and hand-made brogues, turn the corner and still be called the N word.

At every level of the class system there is racism and there are barriers to overcome.

Let's not underestimate how entrenched the class system is in the UK. Of course, people of all classes will encounter prejudice based on race, but there is still an awful lot of deference and judgement based on accent and other class markers.

I find that people who benefit from class privilege tend to dismiss it as an issue, probably in the same way that white people don't see racism as an issue.

Yeah, that’s about where I am at the moment; the root cause of the majority of prejudice is socio economic ie the poor being vilified and/or seen as a threat. So, visible and audible markers of lower class are key to identifying poverty.

Black people are disproportionately poor and so skin colour is a fairly reliable marker of poverty. But so are visibly identifiable chavs, gypsies etc.

The obvious difference in accents and dress compared to colour of skin is the on tichtheid points out ie former can be changed and the latter can’t.

That doesn’t mean the discrimination isn’t there, it just means there’s an out. I’m not sure if that’s any better, as it doesn’t solve the root cause.

I’m starting to come around to the idea of institutional/systemic racism being a symptom of class war and so, I’ve changed my mind significantly since this Fred started.

That’s by and large due to your posting tichtheid, so thanks for the patience. That article from the nyt was particularly interesting, and robust. I think America is different to the Uk on race, so I’d be interested in a similar study in the Uk. You never know, the census is out this year - may be some good datasets to work with.

I’m still not on the same page as you about the mental gymnastics required for white privilege, nor its utility, but thanks for the effort in the debate - it’s appreciated.

Edit; changed PoC to ‘black’ as it’s clear that some races captured by PoC are doing very well.

[Random1]

My take on white privilege is that it's a smokescreen for class privilege , which is something that applies across the globe and has done for much of history.

Smoke screen as in something that has been actively deployed by someone to obscure class division as the true picture?

Yes.

Look at when the big corporations started to push this stuff. Around 2011.

What was happening at the time? Occupy Wall Steet, one of the best class solidarity movements in years.

Now the big corps frame themselves as defenders of minorities (in a USA sense, no room for Afrikaners or Uyghurs) and they use that as a smokescreen and a defensive shield.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for me.

The woke movement has been brewing in academia since the 60s and 70s. Social media has just released it.

Big Corps are taking advantage of it, absolutely. But the woke playing field is far too volatile for big Corps to be the architects in my view.

You got any evidence?

[Random1]

Seeing as we don't have a 'Piers Morgan is a Cunt' thread this is as good a place as any to welcome the fact he's gone from ITV, although I'm sure he'll be off to spout bile on GB News with Andrew Neil before long.

Morgan is someone who I just cannot stand to watch - smug prick.

Andrew Neil is an excellent journalist and presenter - I’m looking forward to seeing what he produces.

[Lemoentjie]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for me.

The woke movement has been brewing in academia since the 60s and 70s. Social media has just released it.

Big Corps are taking advantage of it, absolutely. But the woke playing field is far too volatile for big Corps to be the architects in my view.

You got any evidence?

No, it's just a hunch and you must admit it kind of aligns with when this stuff was first pushed by corporations...

Banks pre-2008 were the worst excesses of masculinity, and then in 2013 within less than 5 years we're supposed to believe they've changed into 'woke' instiutions?

It at least signals a conscious push for this, as it's not long enough for cultural change.

I'm not saying the corps are the original architechts but they are manipulating the discussion and using it as a shield.

[notfatcat]

I’m starting to come around to the idea of institutional/systemic racism being a symptom of class war and so, I’ve changed my mind significantly since this Fred started.

By institutional/systemic racism do you mean that the institutions are themselves racist, or are dominated/unduly influenced by racists? It would be good to know which institutions are racist and how so. Or perhaps you are coming round to the view that if there is a racial disparity in any situation where an institution is involved then racism is at the heart of the disparity?

For me, an institution itself could be termed racist when it clearly advocates racist policies, eg. Harvard University regarding Asian students (note: Harvard are doing nothing unlawful).