NPR

lemonhead wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:37 pm Not high profile enough?

Not a monkeys how the decision making process goes but in the system that is, he's about as home grown as you need to get. Long track record, proven success and no coincidence developed a squad that fed the international side the most this last five years.

Well out of the Irish setup and for my money doesn't lose any sleep over it.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:44 am The back row has been an abortion this 6N. Lawes is a far better lock than a 6 at Test level. I have not been impressed with Simmonds at all, he seems to do very little. Underhill is great at tackling but needs a Curry type next to him if he's going to spend the whole match at the bottom of rucks. Chessum is another 5.5 if you put him in the backrow.

No heft at centre doesn't help, either, you don't get an extra big body on hand when the forwards are catching up.

And asking Genge to run it from full back so one of your tight five is always out of the game when trying to secure ruck ball from a counterattack, genius. I suspect Gleeson had a hand in that, strikes me as a very League thing, bringing a big guy at the line from deep to try and get some yards.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:44 pm

lemonhead wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:37 pm Not high profile enough?

Not a monkeys how the decision making process goes but in the system that is, he's about as home grown as you need to get. Long track record, proven success and no coincidence developed a squad that fed the international side the most this last five years.

Well out of the Irish setup and for my money doesn't lose any sleep over it.

More the effect of being involved in the salary cap issues.

My old man was telling me something about him having had a proper bust up with the IRFU - honestly was only half listening but sounded as if he’s not planning on going home.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:54 am Maybe let's wait for him to make more than a handful of appearances in professional rugby before we start complaining he's not playing internationals just yet eh

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:10 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:54 am Maybe let's wait for him to make more than a handful of appearances in professional rugby before we start complaining he's not playing internationals just yet eh

Excuse me, but new shiny thing absolutely needs to be starting in the internationals, because old new shiny thing has had 10 caps now and still isn't the best in the world.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:54 am Maybe let's wait for him to make more than a handful of appearances in professional rugby before we start complaining he's not playing internationals just yet eh

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:54 am Maybe let's wait for him to make more than a handful of appearances in professional rugby before we start complaining he's not playing internationals just yet eh

Oxbow wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:45 pm The other U20 fullback George Hendy is also lighting quick and scored a couple of cracking tries for Saints at the weekend. He's a ginger though which will obviously count against him when it comes to getting selected.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:49 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:54 am Maybe let's wait for him to make more than a handful of appearances in professional rugby before we start complaining he's not playing internationals just yet eh

Let's be honest, Radwan is capable of those kind of tries. In fact, he's scored a few like that in the Premiership which is a (much) higher level.

And Eddie Jones still ignores him.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:50 pm I actually disagree on the will - I think he knows this is his last chance to win a world cup and is absolutely desperate to do so. The spectre of SA looms in his mind I think and that helps to explain a lot of the anti rugby we’ve seen recently.
We are where we are. Fortunately regardless of tactics there is a clear route to the semis.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:50 pm I actually disagree on the will - I think he knows this is his last chance to win a world cup and is absolutely desperate to do so. The spectre of SA looms in his mind I think and that helps to explain a lot of the anti rugby we’ve seen recently.
We are where we are. Fortunately regardless of tactics there is a clear route to the semis.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:26 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:50 pm I actually disagree on the will - I think he knows this is his last chance to win a world cup and is absolutely desperate to do so. The spectre of SA looms in his mind I think and that helps to explain a lot of the anti rugby we’ve seen recently.
We are where we are. Fortunately regardless of tactics there is a clear route to the semis.

How clear are we talking? You fancy this England side playing Wales in a RWC knockout game?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:26 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:50 pm I actually disagree on the will - I think he knows this is his last chance to win a world cup and is absolutely desperate to do so. The spectre of SA looms in his mind I think and that helps to explain a lot of the anti rugby we’ve seen recently.
We are where we are. Fortunately regardless of tactics there is a clear route to the semis.

How clear are we talking? You fancy this England side playing Wales in a RWC knockout game?

As clear as it can be. Not unreasonable to say we’re a better team than them.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:19 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:26 pm

How clear are we talking? You fancy this England side playing Wales in a RWC knockout game?

As clear as it can be. Not unreasonable to say we’re a better team than them.

I agree - we're not a terrible side, and there's some fairly easy fixes that would make us decent - Even Eddie bringing back some of his, currently injured, favourites, would improve the team. Hill at Lock, Watson on the wing and even Farrell @ 12 would address some issues. Curry/Willis back @ 7 and Dombrandt at 8 would provide a better balance at the Breakdowns. None of those possibilities are unlikely selections by Eddie and could work towards a decent team.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:19 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:26 pm

How clear are we talking? You fancy this England side playing Wales in a RWC knockout game?

As clear as it can be. Not unreasonable to say we’re a better team than them.

I agree - we're not a terrible side, and there's some fairly easy fixes that would make us decent - Even Eddie bringing back some of his, currently injured, favourites, would improve the team. Hill at Lock, Watson on the wing and even Farrell @ 12 would address some issues. Curry/Willis back @ 7 and Dombrandt at 8 would provide a better balance at the Breakdowns. None of those possibilities are unlikely selections by Eddie and could work towards a decent team.

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:19 pm
I agree - we're not a terrible side, and there's some fairly easy fixes that would make us decent - Even Eddie bringing back some of his, currently injured, favourites, would improve the team. Hill at Lock, Watson on the wing and even Farrell @ 12 would address some issues. Curry/Willis back @ 7 and Dombrandt at 8 would provide a better balance at the Breakdowns. None of those possibilities are unlikely selections by Eddie and could work towards a decent team.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:59 pm Anyway, some random points about England in this 6N.

1) We said picking Tuilagi and Nowell was a waste of everyone's time, and so it proved. THEY CAN'T STAY FIT, EDDIE. Nowell also still looked strong but slower than he's ever been, and never looked like being a real attacking threat. A large percentage of his tries for England have come against much weaker teams (plus Scotland). He is not the future. He is not even the present. Both players were a waste of a squad place.

2) Sam Simmonds had a weird tournament. He tackled like a demon. He had to play 7 a fair amount. He carried a huge amount. But he also never looked like actually making a break or causing teams real problems. It looks like a technical problem to me - it's very noticeable just how many times he carries into contact pretty much on the way down already. It's like he's terrified of being held up or getting hit hard, so he's looking just to make a couple of yards off every carry. There's some value in that, but it's not what makes Simmonds worth a punt. Admittedly we've barely managed to get within 5 metres for his other major skill to come into play.

3) Related - Dombrandt was dropped to the bench and I think it was a mistake. He had more impact, full stop. And in the absence of Curry for the final game, we couldn't get near opposition ball; he would've made a difference there.

4) Marcus Smith had an average tournament. He's been a cut-price George Ford, and George Ford is better at being George Ford. More importantly, George Ford is also a better player than the one Eddie often wants him to be, because Eddie is fucking addicted to bad kicking tactics. Smith is always going to have some cross field kicks go awry, and there were a couple of shockers at the weekend. He'll get better at them, hopefully, but it's also worth pointing out that his kicks to Steward worked a treat; perhaps having a tactic to a midget (Nowell) and a player who's crap in the air (Daly) isn't the way to go. I yelled at him for the attacking kick he put in just outside their 22 but Steward was within a foot of snatching it and scoring, so that was a good reminder that he does actually know what he's doing when he's playing attacking rugby. It was good to see him start to chance his arm more in the second half of that France game. I have no faith we're going to suddenly become a team that does that on the regular, though.

5) Talking of Daly - just stop. He's not up to international rugby at the moment. Stop having him around the squad. There are other utility backs worth a shot. Dropping Malins entirely was terrible man mangement, especially given Daly's repeated poor performances. If you want a flexible back, pick someone who's actually providing some utility or a young player with a very high ceiling (e.g. Malins, or even someone like Luke James).

6) No-one expects Randall to be incredible straight off. He is a much better player when we're trying to threaten teams. He's worth perservering with, but so is Quirke.

7) STOP FUCKING PICKING PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION AND STOP PICKING BENCHES THAT MEAN WE'RE THROWN INTO DISARRAY BY A SINGLE FUCKING INJURY

8) STOP PICKING PLAYERS IF THEY'RE NOT EVEN FIRST CHOICE FOR THEIR CLUBS UNLESS THEY'RE A RARE TALENT

9) STOP BEASTING PLAYERS IN TRAINING

10) PICK A REAL TWELVE FOR FUCK'S SAKE, EVERYONE KNOWS SMITH WORKS BEST WITH A TARGET MAN

might have gotten a bit annoyed at the end there

petej wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:59 pm Anyway, some random points about England in this 6N.

1) We said picking Tuilagi and Nowell was a waste of everyone's time, and so it proved. THEY CAN'T STAY FIT, EDDIE. Nowell also still looked strong but slower than he's ever been, and never looked like being a real attacking threat. A large percentage of his tries for England have come against much weaker teams (plus Scotland). He is not the future. He is not even the present. Both players were a waste of a squad place.

2) Sam Simmonds had a weird tournament. He tackled like a demon. He had to play 7 a fair amount. He carried a huge amount. But he also never looked like actually making a break or causing teams real problems. It looks like a technical problem to me - it's very noticeable just how many times he carries into contact pretty much on the way down already. It's like he's terrified of being held up or getting hit hard, so he's looking just to make a couple of yards off every carry. There's some value in that, but it's not what makes Simmonds worth a punt. Admittedly we've barely managed to get within 5 metres for his other major skill to come into play.

3) Related - Dombrandt was dropped to the bench and I think it was a mistake. He had more impact, full stop. And in the absence of Curry for the final game, we couldn't get near opposition ball; he would've made a difference there.

4) Marcus Smith had an average tournament. He's been a cut-price George Ford, and George Ford is better at being George Ford. More importantly, George Ford is also a better player than the one Eddie often wants him to be, because Eddie is fucking addicted to bad kicking tactics. Smith is always going to have some cross field kicks go awry, and there were a couple of shockers at the weekend. He'll get better at them, hopefully, but it's also worth pointing out that his kicks to Steward worked a treat; perhaps having a tactic to a midget (Nowell) and a player who's crap in the air (Daly) isn't the way to go. I yelled at him for the attacking kick he put in just outside their 22 but Steward was within a foot of snatching it and scoring, so that was a good reminder that he does actually know what he's doing when he's playing attacking rugby. It was good to see him start to chance his arm more in the second half of that France game. I have no faith we're going to suddenly become a team that does that on the regular, though.

5) Talking of Daly - just stop. He's not up to international rugby at the moment. Stop having him around the squad. There are other utility backs worth a shot. Dropping Malins entirely was terrible man mangement, especially given Daly's repeated poor performances. If you want a flexible back, pick someone who's actually providing some utility or a young player with a very high ceiling (e.g. Malins, or even someone like Luke James).

6) No-one expects Randall to be incredible straight off. He is a much better player when we're trying to threaten teams. He's worth perservering with, but so is Quirke.

7) STOP FUCKING PICKING PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION AND STOP PICKING BENCHES THAT MEAN WE'RE THROWN INTO DISARRAY BY A SINGLE FUCKING INJURY

8) STOP PICKING PLAYERS IF THEY'RE NOT EVEN FIRST CHOICE FOR THEIR CLUBS UNLESS THEY'RE A RARE TALENT

9) STOP BEASTING PLAYERS IN TRAINING

10) PICK A REAL TWELVE FOR FUCK'S SAKE, EVERYONE KNOWS SMITH WORKS BEST WITH A TARGET MAN

might have gotten a bit annoyed at the end there

Good post. Not sure how you missed out please drop Youngs. Too obvious?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:31 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:19 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 pm

As clear as it can be. Not unreasonable to say we’re a better team than them.

I agree - we're not a terrible side, and there's some fairly easy fixes that would make us decent - Even Eddie bringing back some of his, currently injured, favourites, would improve the team. Hill at Lock, Watson on the wing and even Farrell @ 12 would address some issues. Curry/Willis back @ 7 and Dombrandt at 8 would provide a better balance at the Breakdowns. None of those possibilities are unlikely selections by Eddie and could work towards a decent team.

Pretty much. It’s a talented side which is why this has been such a disappointing tournament. Wales and Oz are proper sides but I’d back us to beat them the majority of the time.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:14 pm

petej wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:25 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:59 pm Anyway, some random points about England in this 6N.

1) We said picking Tuilagi and Nowell was a waste of everyone's time, and so it proved. THEY CAN'T STAY FIT, EDDIE. Nowell also still looked strong but slower than he's ever been, and never looked like being a real attacking threat. A large percentage of his tries for England have come against much weaker teams (plus Scotland). He is not the future. He is not even the present. Both players were a waste of a squad place.

2) Sam Simmonds had a weird tournament. He tackled like a demon. He had to play 7 a fair amount. He carried a huge amount. But he also never looked like actually making a break or causing teams real problems. It looks like a technical problem to me - it's very noticeable just how many times he carries into contact pretty much on the way down already. It's like he's terrified of being held up or getting hit hard, so he's looking just to make a couple of yards off every carry. There's some value in that, but it's not what makes Simmonds worth a punt. Admittedly we've barely managed to get within 5 metres for his other major skill to come into play.

3) Related - Dombrandt was dropped to the bench and I think it was a mistake. He had more impact, full stop. And in the absence of Curry for the final game, we couldn't get near opposition ball; he would've made a difference there.

4) Marcus Smith had an average tournament. He's been a cut-price George Ford, and George Ford is better at being George Ford. More importantly, George Ford is also a better player than the one Eddie often wants him to be, because Eddie is fucking addicted to bad kicking tactics. Smith is always going to have some cross field kicks go awry, and there were a couple of shockers at the weekend. He'll get better at them, hopefully, but it's also worth pointing out that his kicks to Steward worked a treat; perhaps having a tactic to a midget (Nowell) and a player who's crap in the air (Daly) isn't the way to go. I yelled at him for the attacking kick he put in just outside their 22 but Steward was within a foot of snatching it and scoring, so that was a good reminder that he does actually know what he's doing when he's playing attacking rugby. It was good to see him start to chance his arm more in the second half of that France game. I have no faith we're going to suddenly become a team that does that on the regular, though.

5) Talking of Daly - just stop. He's not up to international rugby at the moment. Stop having him around the squad. There are other utility backs worth a shot. Dropping Malins entirely was terrible man mangement, especially given Daly's repeated poor performances. If you want a flexible back, pick someone who's actually providing some utility or a young player with a very high ceiling (e.g. Malins, or even someone like Luke James).

6) No-one expects Randall to be incredible straight off. He is a much better player when we're trying to threaten teams. He's worth perservering with, but so is Quirke.

7) STOP FUCKING PICKING PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION AND STOP PICKING BENCHES THAT MEAN WE'RE THROWN INTO DISARRAY BY A SINGLE FUCKING INJURY

8) STOP PICKING PLAYERS IF THEY'RE NOT EVEN FIRST CHOICE FOR THEIR CLUBS UNLESS THEY'RE A RARE TALENT

9) STOP BEASTING PLAYERS IN TRAINING

10) PICK A REAL TWELVE FOR FUCK'S SAKE, EVERYONE KNOWS SMITH WORKS BEST WITH A TARGET MAN

might have gotten a bit annoyed at the end there

Good post. Not sure how you missed out please drop Youngs. Too obvious?

Sort of alluded to in point 6, but yes - there was a vague effort to not say the incredibly obvious stuff (yeah I know, I failed)

There is an element of truth in this, but there’s also a lot of misunderstanding. As an example, Courtney Lawes has started precisely two matches as a lock in three seasons. He confesses to not wanting to play there and has produced world class display after world class display on the flank. It makes not a jot of difference as to the shirt numbers of the back-row – providing the skill set of tackle, jackal, carry and support are all available.

mos_eisely_ wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:23 pm Re Lawes at 6

There is an element of truth in this, but there’s also a lot of misunderstanding. As an example, Courtney Lawes has started precisely two matches as a lock in three seasons. He confesses to not wanting to play there and has produced world class display after world class display on the flank. It makes not a jot of difference as to the shirt numbers of the back-row – providing the skill set of tackle, jackal, carry and support are all available.

https://www.planetrugby.com/opinion-fiv ... world-cup/

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:47 pm But not good enough at Test level when compared to his performances at lock, and performances of natural backrow players.

Our best performances and results under Jones have come when we picked two proper flankers with big engines and a feel for the flow of a game, namely Robshaw and Haskell or Underhill and Curry. In no way were they solely responsible for things, but I just don't think Lawes has the feel for it.

Raggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:52 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:47 pm But not good enough at Test level when compared to his performances at lock, and performances of natural backrow players.

Our best performances and results under Jones have come when we picked two proper flankers with big engines and a feel for the flow of a game, namely Robshaw and Haskell or Underhill and Curry. In no way were they solely responsible for things, but I just don't think Lawes has the feel for it.

Which lock performances are you comparing it to? He's barely had any.

Crash669 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 3:20 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:31 pm

Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:19 pm

I agree - we're not a terrible side, and there's some fairly easy fixes that would make us decent - Even Eddie bringing back some of his, currently injured, favourites, would improve the team. Hill at Lock, Watson on the wing and even Farrell @ 12 would address some issues. Curry/Willis back @ 7 and Dombrandt at 8 would provide a better balance at the Breakdowns. None of those possibilities are unlikely selections by Eddie and could work towards a decent team.

Pretty much. It’s a talented side which is why this has been such a disappointing tournament. Wales and Oz are proper sides but I’d back us to beat them the majority of the time.

I'd also back us to beat them with our best players, in their right positions, playing in effective combinations. Do you think Jones has deliberately not picked teams by that criteria out of tactical genius?

The backrow you're suggesting is a good one, but given how Jones keeps fucking about with players out of position what makes you think it would get picked? In the RWC we're only an injury away from a Lawes, Chessum, Curry backrow in a play off match.