NPR

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:00 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:38 am

Biffer wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 10:41 pm

In turn, you’re ignoring that in return for their taking risk on, they profit from other peoples labour as well as their own. That’s the reward for the risk.

I don’t really follow - each employee they take on and potentially profit from is also further risk and a financial burden. I expect to get paid at the end of the month even if our clients prefer to pay on 90 day terms. I don’t accept that in *most cases* private sector employment is so exploitative that your analysis holds. People should be encouraged to start businesses and take on employees, that requires incentives that reflect that they run risks most of us run a mile from.

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:38 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:00 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:38 am

I don’t really follow - each employee they take on and potentially profit from is also further risk and a financial burden. I expect to get paid at the end of the month even if our clients prefer to pay on 90 day terms. I don’t accept that in *most cases* private sector employment is so exploitative that your analysis holds. People should be encouraged to start businesses and take on employees, that requires incentives that reflect that they run risks most of us run a mile from.

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:38 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:00 pm

I didn't say anything about exploitation.

Are you only taking on risk when you take on an additional employee? If that's the case what's the motivation? If it's not increasing turnover and profit, why would you take them on? Just for the risk? Of course not. You take on extra risk to make extra profit. You make more money than you could on your own by taking on that extra risk. That's the reward for your risk taking.

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:44 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:42 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:38 pm

Not always profit, sometimes due to scope.

I've backed away from this a bit, and stuck with contracting whilst the kids are young, but I've had to employ graphic designers and developers as that's what's been needed. Some I don't have skill for, some I don't have capacity for.

But the fact remains I'd be accountable for the overall success or failure, the contract dev would still get their bills paid. I've been both gamekeeper and poacher for this, and one is definitely easier than the other.

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:58 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:44 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:42 pm

So you make absolutely nothing out of those people? Not a penny?

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

Biffer wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 10:51 pm

robmatic wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 5:58 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 3:48 pm Not entirely sure it is fair to see a business owner’s drawing as being identical to my salary - I have far greater security and perks as an employee

Well, there is definitely a difference in risk but that is generally reflected in the reward.

Things would be a lot simpler if we stopped pretending that NI was anything other than a differently-badged slice of income tax.

Indeed, that would deal with a substantial part of my objections. If you have an income from work of thirty grand you’re paying a marginal tax rate of 32%. If you have an income of thirty grand from share dividends the marginal tax rate is 8.75%.

Even allowing for risk involved in investment, that’s not equitable. It’s a biased system towards people who own assets.

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:58 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:44 pm

I make money if the project works. I don't make money just turning up for 8 hours.

(it didn't work, btw - and it was mainly my fault - the designer did a very good job. I didn't make any money)

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

It's not necessarily money, it's things I can't do. I don't see what difficulty you're having with this. I earn well enough just wining and working for me, but there are projects I can't do everything for.

I'm not a body-shopping consultancy, my 'business model isn't to spend an age winning work just to hive it out to someone else.

lemonhead wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:53 pm

inactionman wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 2:04 pm

Biffer wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 1:58 pm

Risk vs reward in action then. The intention was to make money, but it didn't come off. I really don't see what the difficulty is that people are having with this. You take a risk in employing people and when it works the reward is better than you would have got if it was just one person working.

It's not necessarily money, it's things I can't do. I don't see what difficulty you're having with this. I earn well enough just wining and working for me, but there are projects I can't do everything for.

I'm not a body-shopping consultancy, my 'business model isn't to spend an age winning work just to hive it out to someone else.

My guess is those who have never run a business themselves are far more likely to hold a rather rose tinted view of what it's actually like.

Have well meaning friends working in salaried positions for years talk wistfully (and vaguely) about things like buying a pub, sharing stories with patrons from behind the bar watching the money roll in. The urge to slap full in the face with a two day old fish is overwhelming at times.

So here's the thing, we're a food producer making everything by hand and selling retail. Turnover c£120k p/a and we now employ four part time staff. In the past five years alone we've ridden covid (adapted full to personally delivering local to keep the lights on), utility rise of approximately 45% (sucked it up to literally keep the lights on), raw materials increases of anywhere between 25-60% and rising wage costs as minimum wage jumps about 6-7% a year. Also had to keep competitive in a local market where literally everyone in food and beverage is diversifying to the nth degree to grab or maintain footfall and market share. The average FB feed is swamped with them trying to attract your custom and most importantly: cash. Many have folded along the way. An eighty grand investment in a business turning to shit overnight as you fire sale your way out of an expiring lease. Recoup a tenth and that could be good going.

My wife and I pay ourselves up to the NI threshold and take dividends of whatever money's left over. Which, I'll be honest was never that much to begin with, and as your business grows so do your staff liabilities. Corp tax is 19% of your profits and dividend tax on the remainder around 9%. Despite all this, a newborn and being hospitalised midway through we've grown turnover by about 20k a year since the beginning and are still just about afloat. That's where the rose tint ends, along with the year on year income rise. We're at near ceiling now, and costs continue to rise.

Running a business you are in charge of everything. Strategy, growth, innovation, market research, product development, sourcing, packaging, ordering, advertising, social media, comms, health & safety, food hygiene checks, accounting, payroll, insurance, pensions, equipment, recruitment, staff training and making damn sure the lights stay on through the tough times. And yes, in person working on the shop floor. In return you effectively give up a huge part of your life: physical, mental and social to keep this whole glass sculpture tottering down the road. You do not shut the door at the end of a 12hr day and just forget all about work, it follows you home, keeps you awake at night and is your first greeting in the morning. If you close to take holiday no money comes in and can't pay wages. If you get your pricing wrong you don't make enough or any money. If your employees get sick, you cover. If you get badly sick, no money comes in and you fail. If you personally have a breakdown you fail, and as your name (not your ltd company name) is on the lease your home could be taken away as a result. As times get tougher your friendships suffer, your relationships suffer and yes, so do you.

No one makes us do this, true. It's our choice to have our employees earning more than we do. And they do, on minimum wage. And we cover for them when they're sick, pay them when they take holiday and cover for them ourselves and/or pay someone else to cover them while they're away. In return we get to pay the bills, see our daughter grow up and not have to take whatever limited minimum wage jobs there are in the local area or commute 3hrs a day to the nearest city.

Sure, we could just hike our prices by a third and be done with it. A quarter of our customers probably wouldn't bat an eyelid as they have money and time on their hands, the majority would likely cut down on their purchases and an undisclosed number would silently drift away somewhere else or go without. It's something the £15 minimum wage crowd don't quite get, where is this money going to come from. And I'm all for better staff pay and conditions. We don't touch zero hour, we pay sick pay wherever possible and look after staff in kind. And each year your overheads go up and you try to maintain this balancing act to stay competitive, meet your costs, pay, motivate and develop your staff and stay in business.

If that all sounds like fun then jump in, the water's murky. Assuming you've got the hard cash or massive loan interest to get started and are willing to devote your life to it. Salaried employees wonder what it's like to run a business and be your own boss. Company directors on 80hr+ weeks start thinking this whole paid holiday thing and having a normal life sounds a fab idea. To talk truly about risk and reward, go and take some genuine risks. Then we can talk honestly about reward.

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 amWhat's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Sandstorm wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:09 am

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good post, Lemonhead. I work for a firm that is now 20 individuals, but when I joined it was just 6. Before that it was just 3 for the first 4 years. The owners have stepped back after 16 years at the helm and left it to us. A year later and they both look about 10 years younger.

SaintK wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 10:33 am

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 9:46 am

C T wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 8:13 am
There probably is something in finding a way of protecting smaller businesses (apologies, I really don't mean that term in a derogatory way).

For example I work for a large insurance company, and the big bosses at my work are saying they don't care what comes out of the budget, they know they have wider shoulders. All they are asking for is stability, say what you're going to do and do it. At least that's what they're saying in public.

But there is a world of difference between a large global insurance company and a small business.

What's the reason that you keep going with the business, given all the above?

Oh Christ no: we absolutely are a small business. As small as they come. And, as you've likely guessed from comments about minimum wage, very much at the pointy end. Ms Reeves continues to make our life interesting come April.

Good question. Year one is pure adrenaline, years two and three are where most operators faced with the knowledge that this is now your life (every week, forever) decide on whether to fold, assuming basic economics haven't crushed you first. By year 6 mark you've built up a functioning model and working IP specific to your area that no book will ever tell you.

From there, suppose it just comes down to your values. It's frequently horrific yes, but so is parenting and over time we tend to filter out the nasty bits and focus on the now. Do you feel optimistic about the future or not? Are you in control of your life or dependent on someone else. Can you engineer a way out of the grind and open up new revenue streams etc to keep ahead. We will one day run out of answers, but for now this is ours and we make stuff people love.

As mentioned I want to know my child(ren) and not just grab the odd Saturday while they spend the week in nursery and down for bed before I get home. Nor do I see huge opportunities for jobs in the local area that aren't basement or somewhat self employed. My mother comes from a line of shopkeepers so it's something I have some small instinct for. As owners we are responsible for everything, and that is quite a key word. When things go wrong it's your fault. When a member of staff messes up it is also your fault, you clearly didn't give them tasks commensurate with their abilities and/or didn't train or enforce standards well enough.

Having worked in large organisations where ultimately everyone and no one is responsible for failure it's slightly liberating having nowhere to hide. You become better at the repair/resolve as well as the prevent. You do not blame others for shit, you anticipate problems and solve them in advance. I think it's made me a better manager and parent both. Being in charge is not merely ordering people round, you have to set standards, learn communication, empathy, motivate, own every mistake and put it right. And if the business stays afloat we make a very modest living. For now, that's enough.

Good luck to you.
I had several opportunities but never had the bottle to try so was a corporate man for 40 years!!!
As a matter of interest what do you make and sell?

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:33 am My niece and her other half own a bakery and it's going well. Gail's tried to buy them out but they know they are outselling the local Gail's significantly.

That's another tough business mostly due to the very antisocial hours.

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:27 am I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

tabascoboy wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:49 am

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:27 am I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:18 am The wise choice, you'll live longer and happier.

Bakery. Which, as well made fartisan bread is highly sought after and commands a premium price (and by some distance the most time consuming and least profitable thing bakeries do) means bread, pastries, pasties, patisserie, pizza, pies, cakes, sausage rolls, soup, sandwiches, custard tarts, cookies, sweets, ambient retail, good coffee, drinks and snacks.

We teach breadmaking as well, alongside private catering, events and markets. No more music festivals though. Feck that.

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 am

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:33 am My niece and her other half own a bakery and it's going well. Gail's tried to buy them out but they know they are outselling the local Gail's significantly.

That's another tough business mostly due to the very antisocial hours.

It is, and no one sees the sheer volume of work they both have to put in.

Gail's are an example of a small operation turned behemoth that's done almost everything right, well made produce and quietly snapping up retail units all over town. Now not so quietly influencing house prices.

Kudos to your niece, I'd seriously consider quitting with one of them in the rear view mirror.

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:46 am
Gail's are an example of a small operation turned behemoth that's done almost everything right, well made produce and quietly snapping up retail units all over town. Now not so quietly influencing house prices.

SaintK wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:54 am

lemonhead wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:18 am The wise choice, you'll live longer and happier.

Bakery. Which, as well made fartisan bread is highly sought after and commands a premium price (and by some distance the most time consuming and least profitable thing bakeries do) means bread, pastries, pasties, patisserie, pizza, pies, cakes, sausage rolls, soup, sandwiches, custard tarts, cookies, sweets, ambient retail, good coffee, drinks and snacks.

We teach breadmaking as well, alongside private catering, events and markets. No more music festivals though. Feck that.

Well, I wish you were near me. Have to wait every 2 weeks for a farmers market to get decent bread here. Or travel to LOndon or Cambridge.

inactionman wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:53 am

tabascoboy wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:49 am

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:27 am I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

The supermarket loaves pretty much all use the Chorloywood process - much quicker and generally lower-cost ingredients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

inactionman wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:53 am

tabascoboy wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:49 am

Tichtheid wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:27 am I must admit, I'm a sucker for fartisan sourdough bread, or proper baguettes, or most crusty bread in fact

A proper jambon-beurre can't be beat

I think there's a growing realisation that supermarket bread/rolls especially pre-packed is full of all manner of additives that are at best of questionable benefit and at worst potentially damaging to the gut. Naturally we want food to keep as long as possible but it does come at the cost of possible long term side-effects. And freshly baked artisanal bread/rolls/pastries from specialist bakers are in another world when it comes to taste

The supermarket loaves pretty much all use the Chorloywood process - much quicker and generally lower-cost ingredients.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process

Biffer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:45 pm £40bn increase in taxes

robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:53 pmOne thing I don't miss about the UK is supermarket bread

robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:45 pm £40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

epwc wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:58 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:45 pm £40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

Insane_Homer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:29 pm ~£450 per passenger for Private Jets Love it.

epwc wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:58 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:56 pm

Biffer wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:45 pm £40bn increase in taxes

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

sockwithaticket wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:35 pm

epwc wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:58 pm

robmatic wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:56 pm

I hope there is also a hefty whack of investment coming.

I hope it'll mostly be on green initiatives, the floods today in Valencia could easily be happening in the UK

Won't hold my breath, this iteration of Labour doesn't seem to be especially serious about the environment. Won't even commit to banning neocontinoids even though farmers still have plenty of other poisons at their disposal.