NPR

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:03 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:44 pm Truss and Kwarteng are absolutely fixated on the Thatcher model, and they genuinely believe we need to suffer economic pain before improving, so they’re comfortable with it. They’re pulling the same economic levers she did, without understanding what they do, why they had the effect they did in the eighties and what the differences are (and effects will be) now. They’re just pulling away at them like a couple of fucking idiots. Which is what they are.

And they don't have North Sea oil to cushion the economic damage.

It's not like there's any miners union they can break either, & I can't imagine that coppers on horseback, trampling striking nurses will have the same positive effect on her polling.

Tory alternate reality. There's people out there nodding along to all this, and will be directing their anger at whoever they're told to (not the Tories) by this time next year.

Rumours of letters being submitted to the 1922 Committee already, is this whole farce engineered merely to enable the return of the Blonde Slug?

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:20 pm Rumours of letters being submitted to the 1922 Committee already, is this whole farce engineered merely to enable the return of the Blonde Slug?

Doubt it with the privileges committee enquiry still hanging over his head. Hasn't even started yet!

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:31 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:20 pm Rumours of letters being submitted to the 1922 Committee already, is this whole farce engineered merely to enable the return of the Blonde Slug?

Doubt it with the privileges committee enquiry still hanging over his head. Hasn't even started yet!

and today they pissed allover the legal opinion his fanboys paid for.

I think now Liz has gotten herself inside #10, she'll be a lot more reticent in her support of him. When she was campaigning with the membership, it made sense to support him, & say how awful it was he was ousted; but now she's the Leader, & it makes zero sense for her to support a rival for her job. She needs to get the support of her MPs, & they were the ones who saw he was a liability, kicked him out.

SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:31 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:20 pm Rumours of letters being submitted to the 1922 Committee already, is this whole farce engineered merely to enable the return of the Blonde Slug?

Doubt it with the privileges committee enquiry still hanging over his head. Hasn't even started yet!

I'm sure that can be made to go away. The other possibility is an earnest desire to lose a Vote of No Confidence, get Labour in and let them get all the flak for the oncoming shitstorm.

Either that or Truss/Kwarteng and those pulling the strings really have been reading "How to Run a Country - a guide for 7 year-olds"

We encouraged our children to get internationally portable qualifications. I left the UK pre Thatcher. I'd lived through the shambles of the 70's and went off to find something better. That was always at the back of my mind.

If I were young today, I'd be doing the same again, and in fact one of our sons is in California. I just can't remember being so pessimistic about the future. In the past, even if you did not agree with policies, there was logic that could be understood. Now it just looks desperate dogmatism.

Gov and Treasury trying hard to stop the rot but then the BoE step in and say they will not hesitate to raise interest rates as much as required to calm markets and protect the pound. Meanwhile Kwartang shows a streak of optimism and says he will produce a fiscal plan plus an OBR forecast on the 23rd November - I would be surprised if he is still in office by then. I wouldn't be bothered ironing more than 2-3 shirts at a time if I was him!

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:40 pm Tory alternate reality. There's people out there nodding along to all this, and will be directing their anger at whoever they're told to (not the Tories) by this time next year.

The sterling collapsed after the printing press created all this. Would be surprised if it's not front page of the DM tomorrow.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:25 pm

Camroc2 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:03 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:44 pm Truss and Kwarteng are absolutely fixated on the Thatcher model, and they genuinely believe we need to suffer economic pain before improving, so they’re comfortable with it. They’re pulling the same economic levers she did, without understanding what they do, why they had the effect they did in the eighties and what the differences are (and effects will be) now. They’re just pulling away at them like a couple of fucking idiots. Which is what they are.

And they don't have North Sea oil to cushion the economic damage.

It's not like there's any miners union they can break either, & I can't imagine that coppers on horseback, trampling striking nurses will have the same positive effect on her polling.

On top of North sea oil they also had a lot of newish nuclear power stations. Thatcher was pro-EU for economic reasons. For people fixated on Thatcher it seems an oversight to miss all the single market for goods and services she pushed and ignore North sea oil and gas and nuclear which meant she held cards in disputes with the miners, plus housing stock to sell off and other state assets.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:09 pm

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:40 pm Tory alternate reality. There's people out there nodding along to all this, and will be directing their anger at whoever they're told to (not the Tories) by this time next year.

The sterling collapsed after the printing press created all this. Would be surprised if it's not front page of the DM tomorrow.

Front pages like that were crazy shit after Friday evening already. Both those papers and the Telegraph have been praising the two morons since Friday.

So the BoE isn't going to play ball, & they're going to going to jack up Interest rates, to try & prop up the pound; so the great plan of stimulating the economy, by giving the weathiest a tax cut, & funding it with borrowed cash, will be fucked before it's even had a chance to fail

The markets weren't impressed by the original budget, they saw the promise of more tax cuts in a couple of months time, as even worse, & now todays promises of an OBR report in a couple of months time, as again, totally inadequate.

Why don't you just let Larry the cat run the Exchequer, & chance him spending it all on catnip, & laser pointers ?

At this rate I honestly can't see this shite Gov lasting more than a few months at best. Totally screwed up the economy in a mater of days, Kwartang failing to grasp the urgency and importance of the situation saying he will come back in 8 weeks to give fiscal statement and OBR analysis and sweet feck all from Truss, not a word. They must have locked themselves in the safe room at No10 and are getting pissed/high hoping it was all a bad dream?

Oh for the heady days of Oxford Debating Union, the Bullington Club and posh dinner parties, it seemed all so easy then.

US Fed Official: "The UK is merely proposing this ... aren't they? Right?"

I like neeps wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:09 pm

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:40 pm Tory alternate reality. There's people out there nodding along to all this, and will be directing their anger at whoever they're told to (not the Tories) by this time next year.

The sterling collapsed after the printing press created all this. Would be surprised if it's not front page of the DM tomorrow.

Indeed it is the Top story of the Daily Heil

But its not the Tory Party's fault - just those nasty Speculators ( who are probably delighted in the scrapping of the 45% Tax rate )

But its not all bad news - love the way its spun as "£ rallies on volatile day "



However Front page of the day surely goes to the Daily Star (again)



In what sort of world do we live in where the Daily Star is probably the most honest daily paper in the UK ?

Dogbert wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:34 pm But its not all bad news - love the way its spun as "£ rallies on volatile day "

no but, yeah but...



but wait...



oh...

Some are saying the UK is turning into an emerging market. It's obviously not (it's not high growth with favourable demographics), but is it even behaving like an emerging market?

During the Jacob Zuma era, a place man called Des van Rooyen was made finance minister, the market reaction was extremely negative, and the Rand immediately dropped 5% against the $. He was in on Friday and fitted up in concrete boots and gone by Monday, earning him the nickname "weekend special". In his place Zuma selected someone the markets had more faith in but wasn't a Zuma ally.

If the UK was actually behaving like an emerging market, Truss would now dismiss KamiKwazi, and beg Sunak to come back because that is the surest way to regain market confidence. Jacob Zuma and the ANC understood this.

But that's not going to happen, and the BoE has limited room to do anything without sending ordinary middle class families into poverty. So instead the markets are going to hammer the £, on and off for two months, then KamiKwazi will report back at the end of November. He's also doubled down and made clear he's committed to further tax cuts (funded by debt?). It's total madness, could end up the most damaging speech in UK political history. The £ is definitely going below the $ and Euro if this holds, but what does a currency crisis look like in a reserve currency? Possible doom loop where the volatility itself creates more volatility? Can't see it helping the City's position.

Currency crisis seems the wrong word - Sterling isn't pegged and most of our liabilities are Sterling denominated. It "just" makes us poorer as we're an importing nation.

It's pretty clear that the markets and our international partners have completely lost confidence in the current UK Gov. As others have said they are now dead men walking and haven't the gumption nor credibility to know what to do next. However in all likelihood there is absolutely nothing they can do to come back from this, nothing. A brighter and more principled Gov would resign and/or call a general election but they are neither and will hang onto power as long as they can. Will their bunch of Tory MPs develop a backbone and at least rescue their party by getting rid of Truss and the muppets asap and installing a more moderate bunch of muppets? They need to act fast and decisively. However I fear the dark money men of the Taxpayers Alliance, IEA and other Tufton Street 'think tanks' will be desperate for them to hold onto power as long as possible so as to carry out their instructions. It will be interesting to see who eventually wins the fight but in the interim the UK is going down the toilet. The eventual fallout from all this is going to be pretty explosive.

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:24 am It's pretty clear that the markets and our international partners have completely lost confidence in the current UK Gov. As others have said they are now dead men walking and haven't the gumption nor credibility to know what to do next. However in all likelihood there is absolutely nothing they can do to come back from this, nothing. A brighter and more principled Gov would resign and/or call a general election but they are neither and will hang onto power as long as they can. Will their bunch of Tory MPs develop a backbone and at least rescue their party by getting rid of Truss and the muppets asap and installing a more moderate bunch of muppets? They need to act fast and decisively. However I fear the dark money men of the Taxpayers Alliance, IEA and other Tufton Street 'think tanks' will be desperate for them to hold onto power as long as possible so as to carry out their instructions. It will be interesting to see who eventually wins the fight but in the interim the UK is going down the toilet. The eventual fallout from all this is going to be pretty explosive.

They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them, after they wasted the summer, to hoist this load of shit on the Country !

They need to start making plans for bringing down the Government themselves, & starting to rebuild credibility & trust with the voters, or a new career when the opposition & some rebels bring it down.

If Truss wanted to retain the leadership, she could do a May, & call a GE, to support her "plan". If she loses, she can blame the shit hand she was dealt by the bumblecunt (who probably wouldn't keep his seat). Its a good time to be in opposition.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:52 am Currency crisis seems the wrong word - Sterling isn't pegged and most of our liabilities are Sterling denominated. It "just" makes us poorer as we're an importing nation.

I'm just wondering when a reserve currency has volatility baked in (and mostly downwards) what happens then? Because one of the differences between the £ and an emerging market currency (like the Rand), is foreign nations will hold the £ in their reserve, but will not hold the Rand because of its potential volatility.

The £ is the fourth most held reserve currency (behind the $, Euro, Yen) accounting for 5% of reserves. When do £ reserves get sold (forcing the £ down further)?

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:24 am It's pretty clear that the markets and our international partners have completely lost confidence in the current UK Gov. As others have said they are now dead men walking and haven't the gumption nor credibility to know what to do next. However in all likelihood there is absolutely nothing they can do to come back from this, nothing. A brighter and more principled Gov would resign and/or call a general election but they are neither and will hang onto power as long as they can. Will their bunch of Tory MPs develop a backbone and at least rescue their party by getting rid of Truss and the muppets asap and installing a more moderate bunch of muppets?

I find it hard to imagine that the Tory members who installed Truss would go for someone else very different. Mortgages paid off, savings in cash, their energy bills capped even if they can afford to pay more - what’s not to like? Delighted to be wrong.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them

It would be better for everyone, including them, if they hit the reset button and take all the political damage asap.

Their method of bullshit and boosterism, isn't going to work now the market has worked out the growth they're promising isn't real.

_Os_ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them

It would be better for everyone, including them, if they hit the reset button and take all the political damage asap.

Their method of bullshit and boosterism, isn't going to work now the market has worked out the growth they're promising isn't real.

Truss & the ERG saw; "Oven Ready Deal", & "Get Brexit Done", propel a useless sack of shit into #10, & assumed they could pull the same trick with her, & a promise to conjurer economic growth out of hot air.

The money markets weren't buying their bullshit, & their opinion is the one that mattered.

GogLais wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:22 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:24 am It's pretty clear that the markets and our international partners have completely lost confidence in the current UK Gov. As others have said they are now dead men walking and haven't the gumption nor credibility to know what to do next. However in all likelihood there is absolutely nothing they can do to come back from this, nothing. A brighter and more principled Gov would resign and/or call a general election but they are neither and will hang onto power as long as they can. Will their bunch of Tory MPs develop a backbone and at least rescue their party by getting rid of Truss and the muppets asap and installing a more moderate bunch of muppets?

I find it hard to imagine that the Tory members who installed Truss would go for someone else very different. Mortgages paid off, savings in cash, their energy bills capped even if they can afford to pay more - what’s not to like? Delighted to be wrong.

The Tory MPs are really stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea then? Stick with Truss and they are doomed to lose seats and power at next election or act quickly and suffer the wrath of the 80,000 Tory Party members who voted her in and the dark money backers. Remember Truss didn't have a whole lot of MP support in leadership election at the beginning but result was manipulated by the ERG to ensure she was on the ballot paper. It will be interesting to see who wins now - Tory MPs or the 80k supporters backed by big dark money backers. Whichever way it goes there will be shit on the walls once the fight starts.

_Os_ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them

It would be better for everyone, including them, if they hit the reset button and take all the political damage asap.

Their method of bullshit and boosterism, isn't going to work now the market has worked out the growth they're promising isn't real.

The problem here is that Kwarteng is a True Believer and he and Truss are in power because of True Believers who will refuse to accept reality, because that would destroy their entire world view. Are there enough of those (and those who benefit financially from the chaos) to prevent yet another leadership contest?

If it was just Truss, she'd u-turn in instant, I reckon.

Lets just get rid of all regulations have a flat rate of tax defund the NHS etc etc.

The survivors that make can agree it was a terrible idea and work out a new social contract.

yermum wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:27 am Lets just get rid of all regulations have a flat rate of tax defund the NHS etc etc.

The survivors that make can agree it was a terrible idea and work out a new social contract.

You've read 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' haven't you?

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:30 am Truss & the ERG saw; "Oven Ready Deal", & "Get Brexit Done", propel a useless sack of shit into #10, & assumed they could pull the same trick with her, & a promise to conjurer economic growth out of hot air.

The money markets weren't buying their bullshit, & their opinion is the one that mattered.

You really are in sh*t street when the arch capitalists are accusing you of policies designed to line the pockets of the rich and, concurrently, of being batsh*t crazy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colu ... ed-kingdom

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:51 pm

yermum wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:27 am Lets just get rid of all regulations have a flat rate of tax defund the NHS etc etc.

The survivors that make can agree it was a terrible idea and work out a new social contract.

You've read 'Sovereign Individual' and 'Britannia Unchained' haven't you?

I still have my eyes firmly in their sockets so not yet.

_Os_ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them

It would be better for everyone, including them, if they hit the reset button and take all the political damage asap.

Their method of bullshit and boosterism, isn't going to work now the market has worked out the growth they're promising isn't real.

There is a path forward to them. Not like we have a written constitution. I would guess that considering about 20% of the population would be happy without democracy and most of those Tory members would fall into that 20%. Quite a lot of the ERG fall into that 20%. Certainly Patel and Bumblecunt.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:39 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:30 am Truss & the ERG saw; "Oven Ready Deal", & "Get Brexit Done", propel a useless sack of shit into #10, & assumed they could pull the same trick with her, & a promise to conjurer economic growth out of hot air.

The money markets weren't buying their bullshit, & their opinion is the one that mattered.

You really are in sh*t street when the arch capitalists are accusing you of policies designed to line the pockets of the rich and, concurrently, of being batsh*t crazy.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-colu ... ed-kingdom

Not sure if I should thank you for posting that. Hard trading.

Thought that was a good speech from Starmer. Whilst the next GE could be seen as a tap in now he's carefully blocking attack lines from the Conservatives (tough on crime, pro business and no deals with nationalists)

https://news.sky.com/story/liz-truss-ha ... r-12706352

Liz Truss had to be convinced to issue a government statement yesterday to calm the markets, Sky News understands.

Faced with market turmoil, spiking borrowing costs, and the drop in the value of the pound in the foreign exchange markets, the prime minister's initial instinct was to stand firm and say little or nothing, unwilling to look like she might be shifting position.

The government will reject claims circulating in Whitehall that the meeting between Ms Truss and Mr Kwarteng was "argumentative" and descended into a "shouting match".

Some in Number 10 are believed to blame the Tory unrest on the failure of ministers and their teams to properly explain their plans.

"Some around Truss think this all just needs to be explained better," said one business source familiar with the conversations in Number 10.

Some in government are understood to see the market assault on the pound and government debt as a plot by the left, something which has surprised city traders.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:03 pm https://news.sky.com/story/liz-truss-ha ... r-12706352

Liz Truss had to be convinced to issue a government statement yesterday to calm the markets, Sky News understands.

Faced with market turmoil, spiking borrowing costs, and the drop in the value of the pound in the foreign exchange markets, the prime minister's initial instinct was to stand firm and say little or nothing, unwilling to look like she might be shifting position.

The government will reject claims circulating in Whitehall that the meeting between Ms Truss and Mr Kwarteng was "argumentative" and descended into a "shouting match".

Some in Number 10 are believed to blame the Tory unrest on the failure of ministers and their teams to properly explain their plans.

"Some around Truss think this all just needs to be explained better," said one business source familiar with the conversations in Number 10.

Some in government are understood to see the market assault on the pound and government debt as a plot by the left, something which has surprised city traders.

Long term, I still think the Bumblecunts reign will be measured as the worst ever, but you have to admire just how fucking awfully Dizzy has started hers !

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:22 am

_Os_ wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:24 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:03 am They had their chance; if they fuck about with another leadership election, the electorate won't forgive them

It would be better for everyone, including them, if they hit the reset button and take all the political damage asap.

Their method of bullshit and boosterism, isn't going to work now the market has worked out the growth they're promising isn't real.

The problem here is that Kwarteng is a True Believer and he and Truss are in power because of True Believers who will refuse to accept reality, because that would destroy their entire world view. Are there enough of those (and those who benefit financially from the chaos) to prevent yet another leadership contest?

If it was just Truss, she'd u-turn in instant, I reckon.

Agreed. I've tried to think of anything optimistic, about all I can come up with is the markets have now priced in the cost of the two morons and there's no further damage coming. But that assumes they don't try more crazy shit, which as you say is unlikely.

You can tell in the way Truss built her cabinet (only allies with personal friends preferred) she cannot do pragmatism at all. She sees stupidity like this as strength, because cosplay Thatcher. So they're moronically going to do more of this, the arrogance of this KamiKwazi character is superabundant, they're not even aware how badly they've fucked up instead it's everyone else. It's not too much of an exaggeration to say that the housing market is the UK economy, if that implodes the UK economy is fucked for a generation, and at the end of that it's still dysfunctional if there's not enough house building.

This scenario is a bit alien to me, as I said in my first post today situations like this happen in SA. The ruling alliance is a revolutionary African Nationalist/Communist one, so you would expect it. Reality smacking them in the face usually forces a pragmatic climbdown at about this point in proceedings. With the two morons the main feeling is dread that they're going to further nuke the UK economy for no good reason.