NPR

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:19 pm I was a 'reluctant remainer' in 2016 but the events of the last few days have confirmed that (at least in economic terms) sovereignty is increasingly meaningless in for nations that are not the US (because it has the dollar) or possibly China (which can squash any resentment its economic policies cause).

If gilt markets and FX traders can overturn a governments budget and I think within a few days over throw a government the advantage of being outside the regulatory sphere of the EU/EEA and having a completely sovereign Parliament seem increasingly slim (compared the the economic and personnel advantages). Whilst I think EU membership it too contentious for some decades yet I hope a re-entry into the single market is now more likely (all those brilliant think tanks will have to find another lab for their ideas).

She pays tribute to the “courage” shown by Liz Truss in changing course.
The decision taken by our prime minister would have been a very tough one, politically and personally. Yet she has taken it, and she has done so because it is manifestly in the national interest.
She did not hesitate to do so because her focus is on the wellbeing of every one of our citizens.
It was the right thing to do and, whether you agree with this or not, it took courage to do it.
She says Starmer did not need courage to table today’s UQ. And she attacks Starmer for opposing Brexit.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:55 pm

The sun god wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:45 pm I see that she is now in hiding !!!!..... Unbelievable .

No, No; she's being Brave

I wonder what the urgent business is ?, new wallpaper, or is she packing her cases ?

The sun god wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:03 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:55 pm

The sun god wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:45 pm I see that she is now in hiding !!!!..... Unbelievable .

No, No; she's being Brave

I wonder what the urgent business is ?, new wallpaper, or is she packing her cases ?

She could actually resign citing health issues or some horseshit...... not an impossibility .
I must say Penny is looking rather Prime Ministerish at the despatch box.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:05 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:08 pm

The sun god wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:03 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:55 pm

No, No; she's being Brave

I wonder what the urgent business is ?, new wallpaper, or is she packing her cases ?

She could actually resign citing health issues or some horseshit...... not an impossibility .
I must say Penny is looking rather Prime Ministerish at the despatch box.

Penny looks healthy enough

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:01 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:19 pm I was a 'reluctant remainer' in 2016 but the events of the last few days have confirmed that (at least in economic terms) sovereignty is increasingly meaningless in for nations that are not the US (because it has the dollar) or possibly China (which can squash any resentment its economic policies cause).

If gilt markets and FX traders can overturn a governments budget and I think within a few days over throw a government the advantage of being outside the regulatory sphere of the EU/EEA and having a completely sovereign Parliament seem increasingly slim (compared the the economic and personnel advantages). Whilst I think EU membership it too contentious for some decades yet I hope a re-entry into the single market is now more likely (all those brilliant think tanks will have to find another lab for their ideas).

It goes further than this, one of the main left wing arguments for the EU regulatory framework is that it increases sovereignty for members. Multinationals that would otherwise act with impunity cannot ignore a market the size of the EU's, and therefore cannot ignore EU regulation as they could a smaller entity. And those multinationals cannot corrupt the process as easily as they can an individual state, because of the amount of member states they would need to corrupt and just the physical amount of people of institutions.

A lot of the Brexiter focus is on this stuff (because of who funds them). But individual members couldn't force Apple to adopt a universal charger standard, or Facebook to respect data security/privacy (Zuck just refused to appear before a UK parliament select committee, because it was irrelevant to him). One of the early

The problem with CU/SM membership, is the UK becomes a rule taker without being a rule maker, which is why all the Brexiters dropped this shortly after the referendum most of them having supported some version of it beforehand. It's the most long term viable Brexit, but obviously worse than membership. But (and it is a big but) ... think about what you've noticed about the markets a bit more. If the UK can't make this situation work economically (the numbers aren't looking good), then it's not unthinkable the market forces the UK back into the SM.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:19 pm Rumours she's off to the Palace or going to Ukraine.

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:21 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:19 pm Rumours she's off to the Palace or going to Ukraine.

She already seems to be unwell, sending her to the front seems harsh

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:21 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:19 pm Rumours she's off to the Palace or going to Ukraine.

She already seems to be unwell, sending her to the front seems harsh

salanya wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:27 pm So after you sink the national economy in the first weeks in your new job, you fire your closest buddy for helping you, then you have to get Jeremy Hunt in to reverse everything you did in that first month. In response to which you don't turn up to parliament or media, and you are then described as 'brave'....

What alternative world are we living in?

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:19 pm Rumours she's off to the Palace or going to Ukraine.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:25 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:21 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:19 pm Rumours she's off to the Palace or going to Ukraine.

She already seems to be unwell, sending her to the front seems harsh

.

Honestly I think the UKs response to the Ukraine invasion is a point of genuine pride and satisfaction. However if she's trying to use it as political cover I hope Zelensky tells her he's busy,

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:14 pm

_Os_ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:01 pm

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:19 pm I was a 'reluctant remainer' in 2016 but the events of the last few days have confirmed that (at least in economic terms) sovereignty is increasingly meaningless in for nations that are not the US (because it has the dollar) or possibly China (which can squash any resentment its economic policies cause).

If gilt markets and FX traders can overturn a governments budget and I think within a few days over throw a government the advantage of being outside the regulatory sphere of the EU/EEA and having a completely sovereign Parliament seem increasingly slim (compared the the economic and personnel advantages). Whilst I think EU membership it too contentious for some decades yet I hope a re-entry into the single market is now more likely (all those brilliant think tanks will have to find another lab for their ideas).

It goes further than this, one of the main left wing arguments for the EU regulatory framework is that it increases sovereignty for members. Multinationals that would otherwise act with impunity cannot ignore a market the size of the EU's, and therefore cannot ignore EU regulation as they could a smaller entity. And those multinationals cannot corrupt the process as easily as they can an individual state, because of the amount of member states they would need to corrupt and just the physical amount of people of institutions.

A lot of the Brexiter focus is on this stuff (because of who funds them). But individual members couldn't force Apple to adopt a universal charger standard, or Facebook to respect data security/privacy (Zuck just refused to appear before a UK parliament select committee, because it was irrelevant to him). One of the early

The problem with CU/SM membership, is the UK becomes a rule taker without being a rule maker, which is why all the Brexiters dropped this shortly after the referendum most of them having supported some version of it beforehand. It's the most long term viable Brexit, but obviously worse than membership. But (and it is a big but) ... think about what you've noticed about the markets a bit more. If the UK can't make this situation work economically (the numbers aren't looking good), then it's not unthinkable the market forces the UK back into the SM.

I agree with most of this.

I would say the disadvantage's of being inside the SM and outside the EU are overstated...EEA nations only ever implement part of the total EU acquis and they have their own legal mechanisms (not the ECJ) to enforce regulation. They also don't participate in many of the more objectionable EU core member requirements. Secondly its unlikely the UK would significantly diverge from EEA regulation in any one area in the future anyway (the EU/EEA is a regulatory superpower and nothing else) so being outside it practically gains very little.

The advantages are seamless trade with our largest market and a return to being able to travel to and live in the rest of the EEA..its a no brainer for me.

Also in general the world is entering a new period of instability and risk - anything that unifies is a welcome step.

tc27 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:14 pm I agree with most of this.

I would say the disadvantage's of being inside the SM and outside the EU are overstated...EEA nations only ever implement part of the total EU acquis and they have their own legal mechanisms (not the ECJ) to enforce regulation. They also don't participate in many of the more objectionable EU core member requirements. Secondly its unlikely the UK would significantly diverge from EEA regulation in any one area in the future anyway (the EU/EEA is a regulatory superpower and nothing else) so being outside it practically gains very little.

The advantages are seamless trade with our largest market and a return to being able to travel to and live in the rest of the EEA..its a no brainer for me.

Also in general the world is entering a new period of instability and risk - anything that unifies is a welcome step.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:04 pm She's hosting dwinkies for the Cabinet tonight. I hope she isn't going to put booze on top of the horse tranquilizers she must have been popping earlier.

Remember, this is the woman controling the UKs nuclear deterrant !

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:31 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:04 pm She's hosting dwinkies for the Cabinet tonight. I hope she isn't going to put booze on top of the horse tranquilizers she must have been popping earlier.

Remember, this is the woman controling the UKs nuclear deterrant !

You don't have to post EVERY thought that comes into your head, you know...

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:00 pm She must be absolutely mentally crushed, probably dreamed of this her whole life and it’s gone worse than almost anyone predicted. From imagining yourself as Thatcher 2.0 to competing with a lettuce with a wig on. Has to hurt

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:42 pm Two polls in the Grauniad have Lab with 32 and 36 point leads respectively.

The Tories are still polling at 23% and 20% in them.

You have to wonder what they would need to do to prevent that 20% voting for them

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:00 pm She must be absolutely mentally crushed, probably dreamed of this her whole life and it’s gone worse than almost anyone predicted. From imagining yourself as Thatcher 2.0 to competing with a lettuce with a wig on. Has to hurt

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:44 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:42 pm Two polls in the Grauniad have Lab with 32 and 36 point leads respectively.

The Tories are still polling at 23% and 20% in them.

You have to wonder what they would need to do to prevent that 20% voting for them

You need to remember that there is a certain proportion of people who just don't pay any attention to what is going on in politics but still get and use a vote.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:00 pm She must be absolutely mentally crushed, probably dreamed of this her whole life and it’s gone worse than almost anyone predicted. From imagining yourself as Thatcher 2.0 to competing with a lettuce with a wig on. Has to hurt

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.

To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:44 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:42 pm Two polls in the Grauniad have Lab with 32 and 36 point leads respectively.

The Tories are still polling at 23% and 20% in them.

You have to wonder what they would need to do to prevent that 20% voting for them

You need to remember that there is a certain proportion of people who just don't pay any attention to what is going on in politics but still get and use a vote.

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:18 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:44 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:42 pm Two polls in the Grauniad have Lab with 32 and 36 point leads respectively.

The Tories are still polling at 23% and 20% in them.

You have to wonder what they would need to do to prevent that 20% voting for them

You need to remember that there is a certain proportion of people who just don't pay any attention to what is going on in politics but still get and use a vote.

Well yes, but just on a purely selfish level there won't be too many people who haven't noticed their energy bills rise, their mortgages or rents rise, the price of food increase and all manner of things that have an impact on their lives.

I presume they will be wondering wtf is going on.

Raggs wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:25 pm

Tichtheid wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:18 pm

robmatic wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:44 pm

You need to remember that there is a certain proportion of people who just don't pay any attention to what is going on in politics but still get and use a vote.

Well yes, but just on a purely selfish level there won't be too many people who haven't noticed their energy bills rise, their mortgages or rents rise, the price of food increase and all manner of things that have an impact on their lives.

I presume they will be wondering wtf is going on.

Semi wealthy elderly with mortgage paid off. They'll have been slightly impacted but be firmly of the opinion that it's down to the youth, immigrants and that other lot would have been far worse.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:07 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:00 pm She must be absolutely mentally crushed, probably dreamed of this her whole life and it’s gone worse than almost anyone predicted. From imagining yourself as Thatcher 2.0 to competing with a lettuce with a wig on. Has to hurt

Douglas Adams got it

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.

To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:45 pm

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:07 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:00 pm She must be absolutely mentally crushed, probably dreamed of this her whole life and it’s gone worse than almost anyone predicted. From imagining yourself as Thatcher 2.0 to competing with a lettuce with a wig on. Has to hurt

Douglas Adams got it

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.

To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”

I thought that was Billy Connelly

Britain's financial regulators have identified one remaining fund at an asset manager which would have faced a series of "knockouts" and potential collapse if gilt yields had risen markedly this morning.

A half percentage point rise in the interest rates on government bonds would have left this fund, whose identity Sky News is protecting, having to conduct a "firesale" of government bonds, we have learnt.

However, since the problems are located specifically in a single fund, the Bank of England believes that its collapse would not provoke a system-wide problem that would necessitate its intervention.