NPR

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:39 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:07 amWithout immigration, you'd be talking about per worker productivity growth approaching 30% over the next ten to fifteen years. I don't see how that's possible, happy to hear any suggestions.

Our current per worker productivity growth is less than 0.5% per annum.

An industrial strategy would be a good start, as would a sensible trading relationship with the EU, investment in science (real investment, tied into universities and industry), a real appreciation of how important the creative industries are to our economy

Dunno there's loads more, but as others have said raw GDP growth is just dogshit, better distribution makes more sense. Levelling up would have been a good idea if it had any meaningful strategy behind it

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:12 pmTo level up properly the only worthwhile comparison is East Germany. West Germany spent 2 trillion euros over 30 years and now every region in the east has a higher GDP per head than the UK. That's the scale of investment required.

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:22 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

How many parents want their kids to be doing manual labour? Not many that I know.

Two of my daughters are in my business now, they have to do whatever needs doing, unloading trucks or whatever. Their mates are horrified, they think it's some kind of medieval torture.

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 pmIf you mean manual labour as in sparks, chippies or plumbers, plenty of them will. They are skilled jobs.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:12 pm

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:39 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:07 amWithout immigration, you'd be talking about per worker productivity growth approaching 30% over the next ten to fifteen years. I don't see how that's possible, happy to hear any suggestions.

Our current per worker productivity growth is less than 0.5% per annum.

An industrial strategy would be a good start, as would a sensible trading relationship with the EU, investment in science (real investment, tied into universities and industry), a real appreciation of how important the creative industries are to our economy

Dunno there's loads more, but as others have said raw GDP growth is just dogshit, better distribution makes more sense. Levelling up would have been a good idea if it had any meaningful strategy behind it

No argument from me with those.

To level up properly the only worthwhile comparison is East Germany. West Germany spent 2 trillion euros over 30 years and now every region in the east has a higher GDP per head than the UK. That's the scale of investment required.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:22 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

How many parents want their kids to be doing manual labour? Not many that I know.

Two of my daughters are in my business now, they have to do whatever needs doing, unloading trucks or whatever. Their mates are horrified, they think it's some kind of medieval torture.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:32 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

Why did you need a visa?

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:48 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:32 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

Why did you need a visa?

Special skill set (computer controlled manufacturing IT Systems). They only allowed a certain amount of people working in that field to be non-national.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:44 pmThe UK has relied on immigrants for a very long time, right back to the Irish Navvys who built the railways, thru to the Polish plumbers that so outraged the frog faced cunt.

It's a generational task to build a British workforce that is large enough just to complete the regular infrastructure jobs, let alone the 40 new Hospitals, or just replacing the ones with crumbling concrete, or even all these technical colleges that are going to train these new apprentices.

If you want kids to go into technical roles all you need to do is pay them the same rates as the cushy services ones.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:44 pm

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:22 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:07 pm Get better education for our kids. Have more technical colleges so we can get more apprenticeships. In essence, do not rely on bringing people in to do skilled jobs but get our current citizens to do them.
If the need for skilled migrants drops, less will want to come. Surely a win-win scenario.
In the short term, give them visas and review every 5 years. As a UK citizen I had special employment status (fancy words for a visa) while working in Belgium from 2001 to 2006.

How many parents want their kids to be doing manual labour? Not many that I know.

Two of my daughters are in my business now, they have to do whatever needs doing, unloading trucks or whatever. Their mates are horrified, they think it's some kind of medieval torture.

And that's inside, imagine the horror at the prospect of laying blocks 8 hours a day in the depths of winter, in the pissing rain !

The UK has relied on immigrants for a very long time, right back to the Irish Navvys who built the railways, thru to the Polish plumbers that so outraged the frog faced cunt.

It's a generational task to build a British workforce that is large enough just to complete the regular infrastructure jobs, let alone the 40 new Hospitals, or just replacing the ones with crumbling concrete, or even all these technical colleges that are going to train these new apprentices.

If you want kids to go into technical roles all you need to do is pay them the same rates as the cushy services ones.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:38 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 pmIf you mean manual labour as in sparks, chippies or plumbers, plenty of them will. They are skilled jobs.

100% agree, but most parents don't, where I live they expect their kids to be getting into finance, insurance, media etc. Of all the kids that my girls went to school with I can only think of two that went into manual labour, ones an apprentice sparky (started out as a floor layer) and the other works for OpenReach.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:56 pm Weird, I thought we had full freedom of movement at that point.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:09 pm

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:44 pmThe UK has relied on immigrants for a very long time, right back to the Irish Navvys who built the railways, thru to the Polish plumbers that so outraged the frog faced cunt.

It's a generational task to build a British workforce that is large enough just to complete the regular infrastructure jobs, let alone the 40 new Hospitals, or just replacing the ones with crumbling concrete, or even all these technical colleges that are going to train these new apprentices.

If you want kids to go into technical roles all you need to do is pay them the same rates as the cushy services ones.

The rag trade is a perfect illustration of that, every wave of immigrants from the Russian pogroms onwards (earlier than that actually) ended up in the trade just like my family.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:38 pm

vball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 pmIf you mean manual labour as in sparks, chippies or plumbers, plenty of them will. They are skilled jobs.

100% agree, but most parents don't, where I live they expect their kids to be getting into finance, insurance, media etc. Of all the kids that my girls went to school with I can only think of two that went into manual labour, ones an apprentice sparky (started out as a floor layer) and the other works for OpenReach.

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:35 pmImmigration is an easy fear to amplify, as it already has The Other attached to it, and gives a target for people's woes - it's Their fault your life is shitty, and so offers simple solutions (Stop The Boats) which offer no real argument or solution but tug at the tribal instincts that lurk in all of us.

Plus, of course, the Home Office appears to be staffed by some of the most malevolent people in existence from the Home Secretary downwards.

epwc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:48 pm

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:35 pmImmigration is an easy fear to amplify, as it already has The Other attached to it, and gives a target for people's woes - it's Their fault your life is shitty, and so offers simple solutions (Stop The Boats) which offer no real argument or solution but tug at the tribal instincts that lurk in all of us.

Plus, of course, the Home Office appears to be staffed by some of the most malevolent people in existence from the Home Secretary downwards.

So after the carers had gone I wasted an hour of my life talking to my brother in law about Reform and the issues he'd raised. Here's a bit of that conversation:

Him: "crime increases everywhere where there are migrants"

Me: "But there are migrants everywhere"

Him: "That's why there's so much crime"

Me: "I don't think that's a fact, I've not seen data to support it"

Him: "Well I haven't seen any data but everyone knows it, they're just too scared to say"

Me: "What are they scared of"

Him: "You just can't say stuff about migrants and all that any more"

Me: "But you've just been saying stuff about migrants"

Him: "All I know is that you wouldn't like it if you were a victim"

Me: "Have you been a victim?"

Him: "No"

Me: Do you know anyone that's been a victim?"

Him: "No"

Me: "I've not been a victim either, and I don't know anyone who has"

Him: "Errr"

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:40 pm That would make him an expert, though.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:27 pm

mat the expat wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:39 am
This exactly - no vote, no voice, no whinging

You can't tell people that voting is incredibly important while also telling them it doesn't matter who they vote for. It's entirely reasonable for people to refuse to vote - to not give their support to candidates they don't want to support. The system simply does not work for a large number of people and it's facile to pretend otherwise.

And the younger people these days are not blind to what's happening in the world. Everyone is well aware that, for example, the democrats in the USA guilt tripped the younger voters by telling them how important it was that they exercised their right to vote, only for the party to do absolutely fuck all of use while in power, oversee a continued loss of major freedoms, and absolutely shit the bed over Gaza, and then have the nerve to start running the same guilt trip campaign a second time on people who very clearly do not believe them for a second.

And this is where Starmer's safety-first approach is absolutely at odds with a younger electorate that wants genuine change and genuine acknowledgement that things are properly, properly fucked, not some clever bit of political manouevering that promises little real change.

None of the options on the table are appealing to anyone who wants real change. Not being a genuine shitshow of a corrupt corpse of the Tory party is not enough to engage people like that.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:30 pm

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:10 pm
There are something like 100k fully qualified, UK born, nurses who no longer work in the NHS because of the shite pay and conditions.

mat the expat wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:35 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:27 pm

mat the expat wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:39 am
This exactly - no vote, no voice, no whinging

You can't tell people that voting is incredibly important while also telling them it doesn't matter who they vote for. It's entirely reasonable for people to refuse to vote - to not give their support to candidates they don't want to support. The system simply does not work for a large number of people and it's facile to pretend otherwise.

And the younger people these days are not blind to what's happening in the world. Everyone is well aware that, for example, the democrats in the USA guilt tripped the younger voters by telling them how important it was that they exercised their right to vote, only for the party to do absolutely fuck all of use while in power, oversee a continued loss of major freedoms, and absolutely shit the bed over Gaza, and then have the nerve to start running the same guilt trip campaign a second time on people who very clearly do not believe them for a second.

And this is where Starmer's safety-first approach is absolutely at odds with a younger electorate that wants genuine change and genuine acknowledgement that things are properly, properly fucked, not some clever bit of political manouevering that promises little real change.

None of the options on the table are appealing to anyone who wants real change. Not being a genuine shitshow of a corrupt corpse of the Tory party is not enough to engage people like that.

I was highlighting the mandatory voting part

But at the end of the day, Protest non-voting is what caused Brexit.

Reform candidate defects to Tories over 'racist, misogynistic and bigoted' candidates

A Reform candidate has suspended her campaign and defected to the Conservatives because the “vast majority” of her fellow candidates are “racist, misogynistic and bigoted”.

Georgie David, the Reform candidate for West Ham and Beckton, said she had been “frustrated and dismayed” by Nigel Farage’s failure to tackle concerns about Reform’s candidates, though she said she did not believe Reform’s “senior leadership” are racist.

It comes two days after Reform’s candidate in Erewash also defected to the Conservatives over racism concerns.

David said: “I am hereby announcing my decision to leave the Reform Party and stand down as their candidate for West Ham and Beckton, with immediate effect.

“I am in no doubt that the party and its senior leadership are not racist. However, as the vast majority of candidates are indeed racist, misogynistic, and bigoted, I do not wish to be directly associated with people who hold such views that are so vastly opposing to my own and what I stand for.

“I also have been significantly frustrated and dismayed by the failure of the Reform Party’s leadership to tackle this issue in any meaningful way, and their attempts to instead try to brush it under the carpet or cry foul play.

“As such, I have now suspended my campaign with Reform, and I am endorsing the Conservative Party – I would encourage all of my fellow patriots to do the same.”

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:16 am Another one

Reform candidate defects to Tories over 'racist, misogynistic and bigoted' candidates

A Reform candidate has suspended her campaign and defected to the Conservatives because the “vast majority” of her fellow candidates are “racist, misogynistic and bigoted”.

Georgie David, the Reform candidate for West Ham and Beckton, said she had been “frustrated and dismayed” by Nigel Farage’s failure to tackle concerns about Reform’s candidates, though she said she did not believe Reform’s “senior leadership” are racist.

It comes two days after Reform’s candidate in Erewash also defected to the Conservatives over racism concerns.

David said: “I am hereby announcing my decision to leave the Reform Party and stand down as their candidate for West Ham and Beckton, with immediate effect.

“I am in no doubt that the party and its senior leadership are not racist. However, as the vast majority of candidates are indeed racist, misogynistic, and bigoted, I do not wish to be directly associated with people who hold such views that are so vastly opposing to my own and what I stand for.

“I also have been significantly frustrated and dismayed by the failure of the Reform Party’s leadership to tackle this issue in any meaningful way, and their attempts to instead try to brush it under the carpet or cry foul play.

“As such, I have now suspended my campaign with Reform, and I am endorsing the Conservative Party – I would encourage all of my fellow patriots to do the same.”

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:10 pm
]There are something like 100k fully qualified UK born, nurses who no longer work in the NHS because of the shite pay and conditions.

I have to say epwc, I think that's a really odd attitude. There are hundreds of thousands of kids who would go into a skilled trade if they had a pathway. Something Scotland has done very well over the last 10-15 years is build a really strong college system which is packed with kids from all walks of life learning skilled trades that will pay a good wage.

Slick wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:10 pmI have to say epwc, I think that's a really odd attitude. There are hundreds of thousands of kids who would go into a skilled trade if they had a pathway. Something Scotland has done very well over the last 10-15 years is build a really strong college system which is packed with kids from all walks of life learning skilled trades that will pay a good wage.

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:16 am Another one

Reform candidate defects to Tories over 'racist, misogynistic and bigoted' candidates

sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 11:29 am

tabascoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:16 am Another one

Reform candidate defects to Tories over 'racist, misogynistic and bigoted' candidates

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:11 am
It’s been a generation and more since Britain saw 80%+ of people vote, we can have no real idea what the landscape would look like with mandatory voting

mat the expat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:08 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:11 am
It’s been a generation and more since Britain saw 80%+ of people vote, we can have no real idea what the landscape would look like with mandatory voting

In all likelihood, not much different.

People rarely cope with more than 2 parties.

I have to say, having worked many elections here in Oz, the system is better. It's Mandatory to turn up, not vote - but you have to get down off your high horse to turn up.

Preferential voting is much better than first past the post - I mean, how can it still be a thing? It's a relic

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:33 am

mat the expat wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:08 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:11 am
It’s been a generation and more since Britain saw 80%+ of people vote, we can have no real idea what the landscape would look like with mandatory voting

In all likelihood, not much different.

People rarely cope with more than 2 parties.

I have to say, having worked many elections here in Oz, the system is better. It's Mandatory to turn up, not vote - but you have to get down off your high horse to turn up.

Preferential voting is much better than first past the post - I mean, how can it still be a thing? It's a relic

Would be very different as young people generally are the ones with low turnout and generally don't vote Tory.

If Starmer and Labour introduce a mandatory voting law, the Tories are comeback gets even harder.