NPR

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:38 am What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:38 am What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:42 am Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:06 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:42 am Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:04 am Two rumours I've heard about Wasps:
1) The only place that's said yes to hosting them is Adams Park
2) Dallaglio is up to his tits in some of Wasps' debts and rights deals (beyond being a Director) and got some very poor advice meaning he hasn't made an agreement with HMRC

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:06 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:42 am Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

To be honest I think Worcester have a far better chance of surviving than Wasps.

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:41 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:06 am

fishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:42 am Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

It's not impossible that they take up the spare berths to fill out the 20 team structure. However I imagine there would be all sorts of issues with getting them in given it's an RFU competition.

To be honest I think Worcester have a far better chance of surviving than Wasps.

Indeed. They still have the ground and training facilities which can be got up and running in short order. Wasps have to start from scratch.

Brazil wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:47 am I think that was just the land surrounding the stadium. The training facility and stadium were on separate deals IIRC. Obviously it will present a logistical problem if somebody builds a housing estate around the stadium.

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:03 pm The P-Shares are, effectively, a payment in kind to the owners that have lost money for years bankrolling English professional clubs. Despite their value being only a fraction of what the owners have ploughed in over the years, I can still see their value being a major problem to England getting a professional structure somewhere close to being functional and fit to serve the best interests of all the stakeholders. And that's before we mention CVC who have added zero value since they bought in. I believe in order to get this structure in place then the P-shares either have to be written off in full or bought by the RFU.

SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:26 pm

Kawazaki wrote: ↑Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:03 pm The P-Shares are, effectively, a payment in kind to the owners that have lost money for years bankrolling English professional clubs. Despite their value being only a fraction of what the owners have ploughed in over the years, I can still see their value being a major problem to England getting a professional structure somewhere close to being functional and fit to serve the best interests of all the stakeholders. And that's before we mention CVC who have added zero value since they bought in. I believe in order to get this structure in place then the P-shares either have to be written off in full or bought by the RFU.

What is their total value?

ASMO wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:01 pm Quins cancelled big game 14 on 27th December due to train strikes, bummer as i was looking forwards to that post Xmas.

SaintK wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:38 am So Borthwick and Sinfield to be announced by the RFU later today or tomorrow.
No news on the rest of the coaching team as yet

geordie_6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:42 pm https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... head-coach

Borthwick confirmed, Sinfield as defence coach. Wider coaching team "to follow in coming weeks".

Stuart Barnes
Monday December 19 2022, 12.01am GMT, The Times

As an open-side flanker, Ben Earl’s contribution to Saracens’ superb 28-20 win against Lyon in France was minimal. I don’t remember him winning penalties or turnovers at the breakdown. The opposing fly half wasn’t put under a great deal of pressure from the man who wears the No 7 shirt for Mark McCall’s team. Given the quality and quantity of open-side flankers in England, the previous campaign’s Gallagher Premiership player of the season is an easy man to omit on the flank.

Ah, but he was voted player of the season, not back-row forward of the year. He is so much more than a No 7. On Saturday, he revelled in his repertoire of tricks. In the process, his performance begs the question: should he be utilised in other, more original ways than simply as a bloke who packs down in the back row?
His strengths are England’s weaknesses. It has been a while since England’s pack have surged onto the front foot over the gainline, the target set by a centre speeding into space from quick lineout ball. Yet ten minutes into the Lyon game, Earl took a pass from Billy Vunipola and utilised his speed and footwork to rip through the opposing midfield.

Manu Tuilagi is the hard-running English dream but the nature of his horrible collision with the Ulster prop, Andy Warwick, in round one of the Champions Cup was telling. He committed body and soul to the barging run. He always does. But not once did he look for a weak shoulder, or a shift in his running angle. Apart from being injury prone (and last week’s injury was as much his fault as the technically poor tackler’s) he is painfully predictable.

Earl roared through the French defence, fast and flashy as any back with the brute determination of a ball- carrying forward. Ten minutes later, he popped up on Owen Farrell’s shoulder to sprint through for a try. The odds were always against the Lyon rearguard but the little changes of direction made the score certain.
On the half-hour, he chased a Saracens kick-off and flattened an opponent. Open-side or centre, it is part of the same broken-field package. In the second half, there was a lovely inside pass to Elliot Daly which unleashed Saracens’ now trademark counterattack from deep.

There isn’t a centre who carries and chases with more effect. He knows his way around the breakdown as someone brought up in the back row would, but he doesn’t live for the confrontation in the manner of Jack Willis, Tom Curry or Sam Underhill. He’ll ensure that his side are not numerically disadvantaged at the point of contact. If his team need quick ball he will provide the momentum to block the counter ruck or jackal. There are a few open-sides available to England who are more effective at the breakdown but Earl would be better at the point of contact than any back.
Imagine an England back row with Earl lending his shoulder from the centre. It would provide the sort of quick ball that England lacked in the autumn. It is not as if he would be asked to switch positions. Bar packing down on the flank, Saracens have liberated him to play more as an auxiliary back than forward.
Earl has the intelligence to adapt to the new role with ease, though kicking would be an issue

He already does damage from the inside centre position from lineouts. It needn’t be that difficult to learn to defend more permanently in the midfield, rather than from the flank. Defence is first and foremost a state of mind and this man loves getting stuck into tackling as much as he enjoys bursting through a gap created by his brilliant running lines.

Back row and inside centre are two of the field’s fundamental positions. The amount of small decisions that need to be made are vast. The fly half is expected to provide the broad vision but the non-stop thinking process of, “Do I take the tackle, do I commit to the breakdown etc?” belongs to the flankers and inside centres; these are the building blocks that ensure the platform.

The leap from the back row to the centre is not seismic, especially if you spend most of your time as only a theoretical No 7, roaming around the field, plugging holes. The previous England regime, led by Stuart Lancaster, understood that the gap between back row and inside centre wasn’t great as they toyed with rugby league convert Sam Burgess in both positions.
Work would be required of Earl in the art of first-phase defence but destroying is easier than creating. Earl is experienced, he is extremely smart. He is ideally equipped, mentally and physically, to make the transition from wearing No 7 to No 12.

The biggest flaw in the argument of turning him into a centre would be Earl’s lack of a kicking game. But that is where a balanced selection plays its part. Henry Slade has a superb left foot to deliver the variety from the fly half’s (whoever starts) right foot. The inclusion of Daly would strengthen the kicking even more. It also offers familiarity to Earl if Farrell plays inside and Daly outside or behind him.

Saracens are far and away the best team in England. There’s a logic in picking a spine of Saracens from Jamie George in the front row to Daly in the back three, with Earl as an injection to boost the back line, not to mention adding a fourth member to the back row. England needs an open mind, not an either/or/or/or option at open-side.

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:05 pm Barnes as we all know is a fucking idiot.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:31 pm I'll give it some thought it when McCall start giving him the odd game there.

Until the I'll consider it a stupid idea.

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:56 pm It's about as sensible as playing Burgess there with no thought to decision making, footwork, communication, rinse and repeating the process, concentration, scramble, transition from attack to defence or vice versa, passing, being caught wider out than the 12 channel...

If one wanted to do with with Earl, or indeed with Simmonds, trying to take some of the physical strengths they have and transferring that to the test scene it's not totally out of bounds as a concept, but whether and how it might ever be looked at in practice would be a huge issue. Even before you'd be asking Sarries to undermine Farrell's place in the England team

Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:02 pm "Old Farrell"

I think he'd prefer "Aged like a fine wine Farrell".

inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:28 pm

Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:56 pm It's about as sensible as playing Burgess there with no thought to decision making, footwork, communication, rinse and repeating the process, concentration, scramble, transition from attack to defence or vice versa, passing, being caught wider out than the 12 channel...

If one wanted to do with with Earl, or indeed with Simmonds, trying to take some of the physical strengths they have and transferring that to the test scene it's not totally out of bounds as a concept, but whether and how it might ever be looked at in practice would be a huge issue. Even before you'd be asking Sarries to undermine Farrell's place in the England team

I am in no way defending the idea of putting Burgess into a Union WC starting XV at 12, but he did have very good handling, line-picking and offloading skills developed in league so the basics of the skillset were there. In saying that, it's not often I'll back up Mike Ford in any argument, but Burgess should have been a back row*

Ben Earl, for all of his clear strengths, has few of the back-specific skills that I can see. Its just a silly idea. Might as well stick him at 9 a la Bergamasco <insert Ben Youngs joke round about here>

* for my sanity, did Farrell also play 6 for club and 12 for Country?

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:05 pm Barnes as we all know is a fucking idiot.

Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:38 pm Support staff wise Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

Asked specifically about Hodgson, whose arrival was only announced in November, Sweeney himself would not comment on the individual situations of any coaches.

“I think it's too early to say that yet,” Sweeney said.